# Chanel’s Rise & STALL: Defects, Difficulties & Deflection (formerly the 19 tote saga thread)



## TraceySH

Just bought 2 of these last week. Used the beige TWICE. I carry nothing in my bags, and when I say "used" I mean 2 hours a day for 2 days. This is all 4 attachments of the chain to the bag. Just trying to keep you guys from making the same mistake. 

MY SA is awesome, taking them back immediately, horrified. So that's good, but not worth all the headache if you can avoid...


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## TraceySH

From a little further away...


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## bagshopr

This is horrible and I'm so sorry you had this experience.  I have been admiring this bag but now I will stay away!


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## mzbaglady1

TraceySH said:


> Just bought 2 of these last week. Used the beige TWICE. I carry nothing in my bags, and when I say "used" I mean 2 hours a day for 2 days. This is all 4 attachments of the chain to the bag. Just trying to keep you guys from making the same mistake.
> 
> MY SA is awesome, taking them back immediately, horrified. So that's good, but not worth all the headache if you can avoid...
> 
> View attachment 5576882
> View attachment 5576884
> View attachment 5576885
> View attachment 5576886


Totally not acceptable.


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## papertiger

Not a good look, and on a darker bag this would look even worse


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## bergafer3

I was just considering this bag after being disappointed by backpacks. Thanks for sharing this


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## TraceySH

bagshopr said:


> This is horrible and I'm so sorry you had this experience.  I have been admiring this bag but now I will stay away!


Please do. That's my point in posting. I am so tired of this!


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## TraceySH

bergafer3 said:


> I was just considering this bag after being disappointed by backpacks. Thanks for sharing this


Good, yes, stay away!!


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## TraceySH

papertiger said:


> Not a good look, and on a darker bag this would look even worse


I know, unbelievable. My SA said she can't even keep up with the complaints coming in every day about defects. They are just refunding refunding refunding. I feel sorry for the SA. I bought the black too, tags on, and only 7 days since it arrived. Glad I saw this now, not later.


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## umamanikam

Wonder if all these issues are due to a particular type of leather .Is this leather Similiar to the 22 bag ?


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## TraceySH

mzbaglady1 said:


> Totally not acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5576895


I know. I know I am and have been a mouthpiece for Chanel, the good and the bad. And have always tried to be objective and tell it like it is. This might just be the last straw for me. I'm exhausted from TRYING to make them be what they used to be in my head.


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## TraceySH

umamanikam said:


> Wonder if all these issues are due to a particular type of leather .Is this leather Similiar to the 22 bag ?


Yeah it's not leather. Neither is the 22 bag. Bonded leather at best. See the peeling above the chafing? NOT leather lol.


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## bergafer3

TraceySH said:


> Yeah it's not leather. Neither is the 22 bag. Bonded leather at best. See the peeling above the chafing? NOT leather lol.
> 
> View attachment 5576902



Wow! Is it advertised as lambskin?


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## TraceySH

bergafer3 said:


> Wow! Is it advertised as lambskin?


Not 100% lambskin. That's the difference. It could be 1%, 5%, 10%. Bonded leather is the back side of real leather, the discarded part, then used to put a polyurethane coating on. It can still be called leather legally.


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## gail13

This is exactly what the 22 bag has been doing. This is not leather, you can see how it appears the painted coating is cracking on top. It is so thin... there is no substance to it. My concern is, is this how the new 19 bags and other things are being made too? We deserve better for a $5k bag.


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## mzbaglady1

TraceySH said:


> Yeah it's not leather. Neither is the 22 bag. Bonded leather at best. See the peeling above the chafing? NOT leather lol.
> 
> View attachment 5576902


I came across plenty of Chanel bags that I wanted to purchase but I immediately stopped because of that plasticly feel and look.  I couldn't put my finger on what this material was.  For me just because it's Chanel and the history I refuse to purchase any merchandise that is subpar quality.


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## umamanikam

I have seen in the last two seasons the lining of the bags like mini ,bus affinity are lined with leather .Now I seriously wonder if its this material


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## TraceySH

mzbaglady1 said:


> I came across plenty of Chanel bags that I wanted to purchase but I immediately stopped because of that plasticly feel and look.  I couldn't put my finger on what this material was.  For me just because it's Chanel and the history I refuse to purchase any merchandise that is subpar quality.


Yep. When you really study it you go, this isn't luxurious leather. I did the same for awhile, stopped really thinking about it. And one day I was like, wait WHAT IS THIS STUFF?


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## TraceySH

umamanikam said:


> I have seen in the last two seasons the lining of the bags like mini ,bus affinity are lined with leather .Now I seriously wonder if its this material


I think most of the seasonal caviars are just stamped PU leather (bonded) as they are all plasticky. I know they reinforced the boy bag corners w/ PU leather, I am sure b/c of the issues with wear there. I am sure the CCH corners as well as those were a mess. I don't doubt they are trying to use cheaper materials to make these things wear longer/ better than actually just using higher end materials (thick, dyed, top leathers) in the first place, but now even the chemical Frankenstein combo isn't working.


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## gail13

I keep thinking of that article regarding how much profit this company made the last few years. I wonder when they started using this material to make our bags?


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## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> I keep thinking of that article regarding how much profit this company made the last few years. I wonder when they started using this material to make our bags?


…..while doubling prices….in a pandemic.


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## zaraha

TraceySH said:


> Yeah it's not leather. Neither is the 22 bag. Bonded leather at best. See the peeling above the chafing? NOT leather lol.
> 
> View attachment 5576902


This is very similar to 22 bag issue.  Omg staying away from this bag too.  It’s confusing would they be mixing fake leather batches of bags with real leather bags so consumers will get confused.  Thanks for posting…


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## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> This is very similar to 22 bag issue.  Omg staying away from this bag too.  It’s confusing would they be mixing fake leather batches of bags with real leather bags so consumers will get confused.  Thanks for posting…


I don't think any of them are 100% leather. None of the 22's are 100% leather and I DO know that to be a fact. None of the 19's are 100% leather and I also know that to be a fact. I would imagine "good" and "bad" ones have more to do w/ which factory & failure of the chemical compounds than mixing up real vs not.


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## zaraha

TraceySH said:


> I think most of the seasonal caviars are just stamped PU leather (bonded) as they are all plasticky. I know they reinforced the boy bag corners w/ PU leather, I am sure b/c of the issues with wear there. I am sure the CCH corners as well as those were a mess. I don't doubt they are trying to use cheaper materials to make these things wear longer/ better than actually just using higher end materials (thick, dyed, top leathers) in the first place, but now even the chemical Frankenstein combo isn't working.


So I wonder if our “classics lambskin  bags” are made with fake leather now… wow I can see this is going to hurt their reputation and they should be on list of “fast fashion” rather than luxury.


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## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> So I wonder if our “classics lambskin  bags” are made with fake leather now… wow I can see this is going to hurt their reputation and they should be on list of “fast fashion” rather than luxury.


Well, I mean, making 15 million bags a year + kind of puts them in that category already? I think the REV bags are still 100% leather. My BLACK reissues & BLACK & beige clair jumbos are veiny & irregular surfaces. I knew they did something weird to the 19s when they came out b/c they felt like plastic, but honestly, I didn't care all that much cuz I've taken them out in the rain, spilled food on them, coffee on them, thrown them around, put them on the floor, and they've held up well. So, I mean, not great but that was a decent offset. 

There's another thread out there right now about all this stuff BUT Chanel sells a feeling, not necessarily a quality product. I think people are hooked no matter what material they use!


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## Tina1010

TraceySH said:


> I know, unbelievable. My SA said she can't even keep up with the complaints coming in every day about defects. They are just refunding refunding refunding. I feel sorry for the SA. I bought the black too, tags on, and only 7 days since it arrived. Glad I saw this now, not later.


Are the complaints only about this bag or just bags in general? I'm trying to get a quality classic flap but have gone through 5 bags with 5 big different issues I couldn't ignore for the price tag.


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## Tina1010

mzbaglady1 said:


> I came across plenty of Chanel bags that I wanted to purchase but I immediately stopped because of that plasticly feel and look.  I couldn't put my finger on what this material was.  For me just because it's Chanel and the history I refuse to purchase any merchandise that is subpar quality.


A black classic I returned looked very plasticy to me.. similar to patent .. almost like it was coated with something.  Just trying to understand if that's what you mean? And if I come across this again does this mean it's subpar quality of leather?


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## TraceySH

Tina1010 said:


> Are the complaints only about this bag or just bags in general? I'm trying to get a quality classic flap but have gone through 5 bags with 5 big different issues I couldn't ignore for the price tag.


Oh no, about all bags. And RTW. Apparently if you purchase something with nice CC buttons on it now they keep the item to reinforce the buttons before releasing it to you. I had a sweater like combust on me 2 weeks ago while trying it on. Tons of leather goods are actually sent to repair shops BEFORE even arriving at the boutiques now b/c they are coming from overseas defective.


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## EpiFanatic

I’m so sorry. This is bad. So glad your SA is taking care of you. Hope lambskin, even though soft and easy to scratch, is a better bet. You’re better off with Coach compared to the 22 tote.


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## gail13

TraceySH said:


> Oh no, about all bags. And RTW. Apparently if you purchase something with nice CC buttons on it now they keep the item to reinforce the buttons before releasing it to you. I had a sweater like combust on me 2 weeks ago while trying it on. Tons of leather goods are actually sent to repair shops BEFORE even arriving at the boutiques now b/c they are coming from overseas defective.


Yes this is true. I have heard that is some of the reason bags show up really late, its because a batch needed to be fixed.  



Tina1010 said:


> A black classic I returned looked very plasticy to me.. similar to patent .. almost like it was coated with something.  Just trying to understand if that's what you mean? And if I come across this again does this mean it's subpar quality of leather?


I have no doubt Chanel has aligned themselves with some very quality embroidery people etc but as far as leather, there is nothing talked about at all.  Caviar is stamped leather. Why does it need to be stamped?  Other designers do it too.  If you think to some of the sandals or flip flops we are buying, Im not sure if those are leather?  If you look back at some of the vintage bags, those are definitely of better quality and materials.


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## DamierEbene

I’ve read the whole thread and I am just…bumped…wow… I mean, yes we all knew leather quality differs from season to season and here and there returns happen due to defects. But this….I am speechless. 

Whole batches have to be fixed? Defects and returns in all bag categories? Now I see where the price increases come from…

like @EpiFanatic I wonder if the soft lambskin (of minis, top handle minis, pearl crush, trendy cc) is as easy to ‘manipulate’ or ‘fake’ as the seasonal plasticky caviar??????


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## TraceySH

This is a really good video taking apart different "leathers" and comparing to Chanel "leathers"


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## lvchanellvr

I can't be shocked anymore. I'm sorry this happened to you and at these price levels, I do expect more from Chanel. A person can certainly dream.


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## mzbaglady1

TraceySH said:


> This is a really good video taking apart different "leathers" and comparing to Chanel "leathers"



Oh my goodness. I came across this video about a week ago. Funny there's plenty of comments on TPF platform that's trying to downplay these videos as click bait and over dramatization of issues with Chanel handbags/products. 
I was going to tag you this video but I said to myself stay out of this and mind your own business. I think this person Chanel will eventually have her videos removed from off probably all social media platforms. She educated me on bonded leather which I never heard of this term until this video.


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## TraceySH

mzbaglady1 said:


> Oh my goodness. I came across this video about a week ago. Funny there's plenty of comments on TPF platform that's trying to downplay these videos as click bait and over dramatization of issues with Chanel handbags/products.
> I was going to tag you this video but I said to myself stay out of this and mind your own business. I think this person Chanel will eventually have her videos removed from off probably all social media platforms. She educated me on bonded leather which I never heard of this term until this video.


I mean I think most of us who really WANT to know things know about this video and the others. But regardless of that, there’s a small quorum of us who’ve been doing some really deep diving into things…. Between us we have a ton of connections & have uncovered so much. It’s not good. But Chanel loves to sue & tell tpf to take things down so even this thread might be short lived


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## mzbaglady1

Tina1010 said:


> A black classic I returned looked very plasticy to me.. similar to patent .. almost like it was coated with something.  Just trying to understand if that's what you mean? And if I come across this again does this mean it's subpar quality of leather?


For me when I purchase leather I want that feel of leather the smell of leather. I know what I'm getting when I purchase patent leather. But this other material that's plasticly? And the price is in the thousands of dollars???? I  cannot answer for what someone else might accept subpar quality or not. When I purchase an item I want facts not an illusion or a fairytale.


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## OCMomof3

TraceySH said:


> I don't think any of them are 100% leather. None of the 22's are 100% leather and I DO know that to be a fact. None of the 19's are 100% leather and I also know that to be a fact. I would imagine "good" and "bad" ones have more to do w/ which factory & failure of the chemical compounds than mixing up real vs not.


None of the 19s are 100% leather? Can I ask where you got this info?


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## TraceySH

OCMomof3 said:


> None of the 19s are 100% leather? Can I ask where you got this info?


No, I am sorry. I can't put other people's jobs/ livelihoods at risk by revealing that. BUT, a good idea would be to take one of yours to a leather expert and have them deconstruct it/ diagnose it. That's a good place to start...


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## OCMomof3

TraceySH said:


> No, I am sorry. I can't put other people's jobs/ livelihoods at risk by revealing that. BUT, a good idea would be to take one of yours to a leather expert and have them deconstruct it/ diagnose it. That's a good place to start...


I hear you and I respect that. But it’s a pretty big statement to make. I have always been under the impression that the body of the bag and material in the chain (if applicable) are leather.  They certainly smell like leather.

Hadn’t heard about the video linked above and I’ll check that out. I can’t see myself letting someone take my bags apart, however.


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## TraceySH

OCMomof3 said:


> I hear you and I respect that. But it’s a pretty big statement to make. I have always been under the impression that the body of the bag and material in the chain (if applicable) are leather.  They certainly smell like leather.
> 
> Hadn’t heard about the video linked above and I’ll check that out.


The tote I am referencing in this post is a 19 also. They are all made with the same "leather". I am not in any way saying the 19's don't have leather as a base, I am saying that they aren't 100% leather. If you go to BV, or Chloe, or even LV, any place else, you will find where they list "100% leather" or "100% lambskin". There's a reason they do this, because Prada, YSL, Chanel, etc ALL use adulterated leathers as a cheaper alternative to full grain leather.

There's another thread about all this here:





						Most of our bags aren't 100% leather, do we even care?
					

So, I've had a suspicion for awhile that our bags are going the way of "chemically enhanced". That suspicion was borne out of studying, at first, Chanel's coco handle, the rubbing on the edges to brown, and the plasticky feel. When the 19 came out, it was insanely obvious that the leather wasn't...




					forum.purseblog.com


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## TraceySH

Here’s another good article ..









						What is Bonded Leather? A Controversial Alternative to Real Leather
					

Buying a leather backpack product is often an investment and an accomplishment. We are no longer talking about the classic, monotonous backpacks made of nylon and polyester that you used to wear to school, but your first stylish, quality backpack that is designed to last a lifetime. Before...




					eikenshop.com


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## tlilrascal

DamierEbene said:


> I’ve read the whole thread and I am just…bumped…wow… I mean, yes we all knew leather quality differs from season to season and here and there returns happen due to defects. But this….I am speechless.
> Whole batches have to be fixed? Defects and returns in all bag categories? Now I see where the price increases come from…
> 
> like @EpiFanatic I wonder if the soft lambskin (of minis, top handle minis, pearl crush, trendy cc) is as easy to ‘manipulate’ or ‘fake’ as the seasonal plasticky caviar??????


I bought the 22B trendy CC and while I was at the boutique there was an indentation in the back pocket from the chain. Similiar to past lambskin leather, it buffed out. So I'm thinking its still lambskin.  But who knows.


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## TraceySH

tlilrascal said:


> I bought the 22B trendy CC and while I was at the boutique there was an indentation in the back pocket from the chain. Similiar to past lambskin leather, it buffed out. So I'm thinking its still lambskin.  But who knows.


I agree with that one! I think the trendy is all leather!


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## JamaisAssez

TraceySH said:


> I think the REV bags are still 100% leather.


This is also what ClassicsWithATwist alleges in her video. Have you confirmed this with someone at Chanel Tracey?


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## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> This is also what ClassicsWithATwist alleges in her video. Have you confirmed this with someone at Chanel Tracey?


They aren’t really allowed to talk too much, inferences only BUT REV classics are made in one of their oldest factories with the most trained artisans. I suspect that’s why the REV classics are the ones with the 5 year warranty.


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## JamaisAssez

TraceySH said:


> I suspect that’s why the REV classics are the ones with the 5 year warranty.


Don’t all newly purchased CHANEL bags have a 5-year warranty? Forgive me, I’m not well versed in handbags.


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## EpiFanatic

JamaisAssez said:


> Don’t all newly purchased CHANEL bags have a 5-year warranty? Forgive me, I’m not well versed in handbags.


My 19 has the five year warranty.


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## HauteRN

TraceySH said:


> They aren’t really allowed to talk too much, inferences only BUT REV classics are made in one of their oldest factories with the most trained artisans. I suspect that’s why the REV classics are the ones with the 5 year warranty.



Excuse my ignorance, what is REV? All 3 of my July bags came with this 5 year warranty. I'm really disappointed to hear that some bags may not be as luxe as their tags; I look at these items as things my daughter will acquire


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## JamaisAssez

HauteRN said:


> Excuse my ignorance, what is REV?


REV refers to the item code of classics, recurring items that are NOT seasonal pieces, for instance the Classic Flap in black caviar. 

To learn more, search "CHANEL CAVIAR vs LAMBSKIN, AN IN-DEPTH GUIDE" on YouTube, from the channel ClassicsWithAQuirk. The timestamp is 5:43.


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## HauteRN

JamaisAssez said:


> REV refers to the item code of classics, recurring items that are NOT seasonal pieces, for instance the Classic Flap in black caviar.
> 
> To learn more, search "CHANEL CAVIAR vs LAMBSKIN, AN IN-DEPTH GUIDE" on YouTube, from the channel ClassicsWithAQuirk. The timestamp is 5:43.


Thank you! In that case, I don't believe any of my July purchases are REV, but all came with the 5 year warranty.


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## sparklywacky

Thanks for sharing.

The quality of Chanel has really gone down the drain, but I noticed it’s become waaaaay worse since the 21A collection. The leather they use feels and looks very cheap too, especially the ones they use for the 22 bags.


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## mzbaglady1

@TraceySH have you received full refunds of all of your defective Chanel bags? After reading some of these comments in these threads I'm really
shocked and disappointed that some customers are starting to feel duped.


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## TraceySH

sparklywacky said:


> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> The quality of Chanel has really gone down the drain, but I noticed it’s become waaaaay worse since the 21A collection. The leather they use feels and looks very cheap too, especially the ones they use for the 22 bags.


Truly. Something awful is happening. It’s never been like this. Rotten apples here and there, yes. Not luxurious products anymore? Yeah for sure. But THIS? It’s like the whole lots are infected.


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## TraceySH

mzbaglady1 said:


> @TraceySH have you received full refunds of all of your defective Chanel bags? After reading some of these comments in these threads I'm really
> shocked and disappointed that some customers are starting to feel duped.


Not always. Recently yes. I’ve had quite the history of hearing “well that’s just what happens” or “‘normal wear and tear” or “Chanel is just fashion not a leather goods house” (meaning don’t take the quality too seriously). But lately I think SA and their managers are aware that the defects are rampant.


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## gail13

Five year guarantee or not, the bag will get sent out for repair and it will be gone a long long time.   Chanel is not good about returning items that have been worn that are defective. They push for the repair. The thing that's not understandable, is this painted finish seems so poor, how could it not have been adequately tested, where is QC,  no matter if it's leather or not?  My eyes can see wrinkles in the leather that look like bags I have seen on the resale market that are re-painted. 

Peeling was a issue that started to surface with some of the 19S iridescent bags timeframe. We were/are told this finish can not be  repaired. People including myself still bought them thinking we would be careful and use sparingly but the peeling was surfacing on bags that were newly purchased.

Moving forward, we are seeing the same issues with non iridescent items.   Clearly something has changed. I think we can blame ourselves for not asking what we are buying and not demanding transparency. I don't think most of the SA's know that much about the leather quality used, I don't think they are trained on that each season.  Chanel feels the bags and costume jewelry sell themselves, which is alot of the reason their commissions have gone down so much.

On a side note, I have never liked Michael Kors bags and have always looked down on their quality. But I looked on their website and this is what I see on a $500 handbag description : 100% leather from tanneries meeting the highest standards of environmental performance.


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## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> Five year guarantee or not, the bag will get sent out for repair and it will be gone a long long time.   Chanel is not good about returning items that have been worn that are defective. They push for the repair. The thing that's not understandable, is this painted finish seems so poor, how could it not have been adequately tested, where is QC,  no matter if it's leather or not?  My eyes can see wrinkles in the leather that look like bags I have seen on the resale market that are re-painted.
> 
> Peeling was a issue that started to surface with some of the 19S iridescent bags timeframe. We were/are told this finish can not be  repaired. People including myself still bought them thinking we would be careful and use sparingly but the peeling was surfacing on bags that were newly purchased.
> 
> Moving forward, we are seeing the same issues with non iridescent items.   Clearly something has changed. I think we can blame ourselves for not asking what we are buying and not demanding transparency. I don't think most of the SA's know that much about the leather quality used, I don't think they are trained on that each season.  Chanel feels the bags and costume jewelry sell themselves, which is alot of the reason their commissions have gone down so much.
> 
> On a side note, I have never liked Michael Kors bags and have always looked down on their quality. But I looked on their website and this is what I see on a $500 handbag description : 100% leather from tanneries meeting the highest standards of environmental performance.


Mind = blown


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## bagsaremyjam

Unless you’re a leather expert who works with, or has worked with leather, it’s silly to assume to know what you’re talking about. I’m not saying Chanel doesn’t have quality issues or can have quality issues, but to start making statements or assuming the bags are made of fake leather is ridiculous imo.

I watched a YouTube video of someone complaining about their 22 bag’s leather coming apart, and there was one comment stating the leather was bonded and a zillion pieces were put together, another stating the leather is spray painted, etc. Then someone commented who works with leathers every day confirm the bag is indeed leather, but the leather has been mixed with a type of color, which appears to be causing this (ie, the metallic in the bag, or something mixed in the color). This was my thought exactly - the bags with metallic or bright colors did not mix well, something happened. The metallic leathers are extremely sensitive to water, to anything really, and this is when they’re in a structured shape like a mini, let alone on a hobo bag. It seems Chanel tried something out with these new unstructured bags that has clearly backfired.

I’ve personally noticed improved quality on all the bags I’ve purchased the past couple years. I’ve also noticed it on the bags I’ve handled in store.

And to those referring to a plasticky feel, that’s the caviar that they’re creating. And the “plasticky” feel someone mentioned on a Chanel 19 is the lamb coating to make it more durable. Side note, my 19 bag is made from goatskin and I can promise you it’s full leather. And that all my bags are.

The caviar reserved for classics is now not put on seasonal bags. Back in the day seasonal caviar used to resemble more of the classic caviar grains, now they have made a zillion different caviar grains for seasonal bags to differentiate from the classics. Most caviar is almost always going to have some sort of plastic feel because you can see the caviar is glazed and coated to create hardened pebbles for durability. It’s why those bags last so long. Treated leather will always last longer.

Lamb is so delicate it’s absurd. Clearly some more than others, but you can see the differences of lamb depending how much treatment/coating is put on it. I don’t know what kind of lamb they used for vintage bags, but they were certainly more durable. But they also feel nothing like Chanel lamb bags now. Vintage lamb bags are nothing close to being super buttery and luxe, which they are now. But you pay a price for that buttery, luxe lamb. It doesn’t wear well. At all. 

So many Chanel lamb purses have a raw like coating, meaning they appear to have very little alterations to the leather, which means they have very little durability. This gives a more luxe feel and look, but it’s also the reason for the bags being extremely delicate. This is why I will never buy lamb bags for daily use unless I know it’s coated. And even then, it’s still the most sensitive leather. 

Regarding the original OP’s photo. It’s looks like whatever you wore rubbed against the lamb leather, which appears to be extremely delicate. BUT. It’s lamb. If you wear anything rough with a lamb bag or don’t baby it, that will happen to most bags. Even in one hour. 

Chanel lamb is notorious for being extremely delicate. I don’t know why Chanel would make a tote in untreated lamb. And to be honest, I feel like Chanel needs to (generally speaking) make their lamb more durable. But then you’ll have complaints about that. 

And peoples ideas of “wear” are also so relative. I’ve seen so many people say their bag is in perfect condition after years of wear and I’m like, are you seeing what I’m seeing??? Because in my mind it couldn’t be farther from the truth. I bring up wear because it’s hard to trust when people say their lamb bags are much more durable than people say. 

Have you owned lamb bags form Celine, LV, or other brands? No matter how much you baby the bag, it’s inevitable the leather will get marks, indentations, scratches.

Everyone has their own opinions on leather, but it seems people are so divided with Chanel. There are people who want the feeling and look of lamb but they complain when their bag wears so easily. They want durability but complain of the plastic feel of caviar or any coated bags, but that feeling is what keeps those bags looking amazing for so long.

Chanel caviar, especially in the classic bags, is the most durable leather next to Hermes epsom. Have you ever bought a bag from another designer and notice the calfskin looks and feels great, but over time (no matter how careful you are) the leather will start to wear and soften dramatically. It just will not stand the test of time. But caviar leather often will. 

I’m not saying Chanel doesn’t have quality issues, but oftentimes I feel like people buy bags in certain leathers and have unrealistic expectations. I’m on the extreme with OCD so this is why I will always choose caviar, goat or calfskin first, and will almost never buy lamb.


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## TraceySH

mpacia said:


> Unless you’re a full blown leather expert who has worked with leather, it’s really silly to assume to know what you’re talking about.
> 
> I’m not saying Chanel doesn’t have quality issues or can have quality issues, but to start making statements like the bags
> are made of fake leather is ridiculous imo.
> 
> I watched a YouTube video of someone complaining about their 22 bag’s leather coming apart, and there were comments saying the leather was bonded and a zillion pieces were put together, another saying the leather is spray painted, etc. Then someone commented who works with leathers every day say that the bag is indeed leather, but the leather has been mixed with a type of color and whatever color they used is causing this (ie, the metallic in the bag). This was my thought exactly - the bags with metallic did not mix well, something happened. The metallic leathers are extremely sensitive to water, anything really, and this is when they’re in a structured shape like a mini, let alone on a hobo bag. So maybe Chanel tried something out with these new unstructured bags that has clearly backfired.
> 
> I’ve personally noticed improved quality on all the bags I’ve purchased the past couple years. Not to say other bags don’t have some issues, but the ones I have are incredibly made.
> 
> And to those referring to a plasticky feel, that’s the caviar that they’re creating. And the “plasticky” feel someone mentioned on a Chanel 19 is the lamb coating to make it more durable. Side note, my 19 bag is made from goatskin and I can promise you it’s full leather. And that all my bags are.
> 
> The caviar reserved for classics is now not put on seasonal bags. Back in the day seasonal caviar used to resemble more of the classic caviar grains, now they have made a zillion different caviar grains for seasonal bags to differentiate from the classics. Most caviar is almost always going to have some sort of plastic feel because you can see the caviar is glazed and coated to create hard pebbles for durability. It’s why those bags last for so long. The leather has treatment on it to create those marks.
> 
> Lamb is so delicate it’s absurd. Clearly some more than others, but you can see the differences of lamb depending how much coating is put on it. I don’t know what kind of lamb they used for vintage bags, but they were certainly more durable. But they also feel nothing like Chanel lamb bags now. Vintage lamb bags are not nearly close to being super buttery and luxe feeling like they are now.
> 
> So many Chanel lamb purses have a raw like coating, meaning they appear to have very little alterations to the leather, which means they have very little durability. This gives a more luxe feel and look, but it’s also the reason for the bags being extremely delicate. This is why I will never buy lamb bags for daily use unless I know it’s coated. And even then, it’s still a sensitive skin.
> 
> Regarding the original OP’s photo. It’s looks like whatever you wore rubbed against the lamb leather, which appears to be extremely delicate. Do I think the bag should’ve done that? Absolutely not. BUT. It’s lamb. If you wear anything rough with a lamb bag or don’t baby it, that will happen to most bags. Even in one hour.
> 
> And Chanel lamb is notoriously known for being super delicate because it often doesn’t have much of a protective coating. Sometimes some of their bags do, but usually they don’t. I don’t know why Chanel would make a tote in lamb without treating the leather to last. And to be honest, I feel like Chanel needs to (generally speaking) make their lamb more durable. But then you’ll have complaints about that. And peoples ideas of “wear” are also so relative. I’ve seen so many people say their bag is in perfect condition after years of wear and I’m like, are you seeing what I’m seeing??? Because I’m my mind or couldn’t be farther from the truth.
> 
> Have you owned lamb bags form Celine, LV, or other brands? It’s a very soft, delicate material. No matter how much you may try to baby the bag, it’s inevitable the leather will get marks. It drives me crazy.
> 
> Everyone has their own opinions on leather, but it seems people are so divided with Chanel. There’s people who want the feeling and look of lamb but they complain when their bag wears so easily. They want durability but complain of the plastic feel of caviar or any coated bags, but that feeling is what keeps those bags looking amazing for so long.
> 
> Chanel caviar, especially in the classic bags, is the most durable designer bag made in leather next to Hermes epsom. Have you ever bought a bag from another designer and notice the calfskin looks and feels great, but over time (no matter how careful you are) the leather will start to wear and soften dramatically. It just will not stand the test of time.
> 
> I’m not saying Chanel doesn’t have quality issues, but oftentimes I feel like people buy bags in certain leathers and have unrealistic expectations. I’m on the extreme with OCD so this is why I will always choose caviar, goat or calfskin first, and will almost never buy lamb.
> 
> Sorry for the novel, but some of these comments forced it out of me.


Leather experts and SA have confirmed almost all Chanel isn’t 100% leather. Yes. To your point. It’s been confirmed. When you have 15 million bags made entirely by machine each year, with insanely subpar materials, and a profit machine like Chanel, eventually the train comes off the tracks. 

I used to be like you. Willing to overlook it all, the cognitive dissonance was rough. But hundreds of bags and millions of dollars later, I’m afraid it all looks like a shill game to me now. Just me tho. You seem like much more of their target customer than I am, and a lot more patient and forgiving. I hope you always have great experiences with them.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Leather experts and SA have confirmed almost all Chanel isn’t 100% leather. Yes. To your point. It’s been confirmed. When you have 15 million bags made entirely by machine each year, with insanely subpar materials, and a profit machine like Chanel, eventually the train comes off the tracks.
> 
> I used to be like you. Willing to overlook it all, the cognitive dissonance was rough. But hundreds of bags and millions of dollars later, I’m afraid it all looks like a shill game to me now. Just me tho. You seem like much more of their target customer than I am, and a lot more patient and forgiving. I hope you always have great experiences with them.


This is news to me. I have a lot of SA’s in my phone, and the one’s closest to me have never said anything like that. I’m not just going to believe some random person on YouTube because of the amount of people on there who don’t know what they’re talking about. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but this is news to me and I find it hard to believe. Especially when a leather expert who watched the video stated otherwise otherwise. If there’s a video out there of a leather expert stating this, please share. 

I have seen a lot of Chanel issues. When I started buying Chanel I would literally purchase multiples of one bag (because the SA’s often  didn’t have time or wouldn’t give me detailed photos). It was often the only way to guarantee that I’d get a bag made well with no issues. I kid you not the amount of faulty bags sent to me. I literally wouldn’t buy bags without photos but realized I had to work with what was given to me. I can’t tell you how many crooked cc’s and flaps I’ve seen on so many slg’s and bags, it was ridiculous. 

But I will say that every bag I’ve purchased since Karl’s last collection has been superb, and others who’ve purchased the same bags have lamented the same. And I haven’t had the luxury of choosing between multiples because of the lack of inventory in each store. That’s been my experience and I’m as particular as they come.

I’m not willing to overlook quality issues, I won’t stand for a bag lacking superb quality. I do know the ones without issues are great. But I also will not regularly buy bags with delicate materials.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Leather experts and SA have confirmed almost all Chanel isn’t 100% leather. Yes. To your point. It’s been confirmed. When you have 15 million bags made entirely by machine each year, with insanely subpar materials, and a profit machine like Chanel, eventually the train comes off the tracks.
> 
> I used to be like you. Willing to overlook it all, the cognitive dissonance was rough. But hundreds of bags and millions of dollars later, I’m afraid it all looks like a shill game to me now. Just me tho. You seem like much more of their target customer than I am, and a lot more patient and forgiving. I hope you always have great experiences with them.


I also want to point out that I just watched the YouTube video of a woman who I believe was posted earlier in this thread, who I believe you may be referencing. She is not a leather expert. She’s very well researched, but admits she’s not certain why the reissue bag leather appears the way it does, and goes into detail about other things she’s unsure about. She is not a leather expert!

To say the Chanel bags are not 100% leather is deceptive. The bags aren’t technically 100% leather because they have materials in place against the leather to create structure. So although a bag may not be “100%” solid leather the way a belt is it doesn’t mean the leather being used isn’t 100% leather. And this matters because there’s people on here saying or worrying their leather bag is fake, which is inaccurate.


----------



## TraceySH

mpacia said:


> I also want to point out that I just watched the YouTube video of a woman who I believe was posted earlier in this thread, who I believe you may be referencing. She is not a leather expert. She’s very well researched, but admits she’s not certain why the reissue bag leather appears the way it does, and goes into detail about other things she’s unsure about. She is not a leather expert!
> 
> To say the Chanel bags are not 100% leather is deceptive. The bags aren’t technically 100% leather because they have materials in place against the leather to create structure. So although a bag may not be “100%” solid leather the way a belt is it doesn’t mean the leather being used isn’t 100% leather. And this matters because there’s people on here saying or worrying their leather bag is fake, which is inaccurate.


I am not referencing her. In the least. I am referencing lifelong leather experts, some of which have worked on more Chanel bags than any other leather expert in the world. Bonded leather is "technically" leather. Every leather is split. EVERY LEATHER. And there are grades to all of them. If something is premier leather grade, it's disclosed as such. "Top grain" or "full grain". Most places, when using 100% leather, disclose the items are 100% leather, like Chloe, or BV, or higher end LV bags. There are descriptors of materials used, in detail. Chanel doesn't disclose any of this, no record of which tannery, which process, and has no leather stamps anywhere, even in the enclosures. "Leather" does NOT mean "100% leather". I can run one of my "lambskin" 19's under water for 5 minutes and nothing absorbs. Nothing. That's more than a little coating, that means there are no pores in the leather. It's really all right there, you just have to be willing to look. And when bags arrive smelling like chemicals, it's not a good look. 

I never said Chanel is fake leather. I said Chanel is making bags using bonded leather. And I stand behind that, as do leather experts who are repairing the hordes of Chanel bags coming directly to them from overseas in defective condition before they've even hit boutiques. THAT is a problem.


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## TraceySH

Ok here you go. Under nearly boiling water. Before, during and after. And then with a knife. During, right after, and 30 seconds after.


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## TraceySH

Alright, for our next round we have BBQ sauce (I don't have any ketchup). Poured on, smeared in, put under hot water, wiped off.


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## TraceySH

For our next round, we have Clorox degreaser w/ bleach sprayed on, rubbed in and wiped off with a  Clorox wipe, then put back under hot water, dried off. "Lambskin" LMAO.


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## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> I am not referencing her. In the least. I am referencing lifelong leather experts, some of which have worked on more Chanel bags than any other leather expert in the world. Bonded leather is "technically" leather. Every leather is split. EVERY LEATHER. And there are grades to all of them. If something is premier leather grade, it's disclosed as such. "Top grain" or "full grain". Most places, when using 100% leather, disclose the items are 100% leather, like Chloe, or BV, or higher end LV bags. There are descriptors of materials used, in detail. Chanel doesn't disclose any of this, no record of which tannery, which process, and has no leather stamps anywhere, even in the enclosures. "Leather" does NOT mean "100% leather". I can run one of my "lambskin" 19's under water for 5 minutes and nothing absorbs. Nothing. That's more than a little coating, that means there are no pores in the leather. It's really all right there, you just have to be willing to look. And when bags arrive smelling like chemicals, it's not a good look.
> 
> I never said Chanel is fake leather. I said Chanel is making bags using bonded leather. And I stand behind that, as do leather experts who are repairing the hordes of Chanel bags coming directly to them from overseas in defective condition before they've even hit boutiques. THAT is a problem.


I didn’t say you said the leather is fake, but there’s people saying they wonder if their leather bags are fake, that’s what I’ve been referencing this whole time.

I can’t chime in on what kind of leather is being used because I’m no expert and haven’t spoken to any. Does Hermes disclose their leather? I don’t recall seeing materials being described in my items from them. I’ve never received a Chanel item that didn’t smell anything other than leather, so I can’t say I’ve every come across anything with a chemical smell. And I guess I can’t recall looking at the paperwork inside Chanel items referring to what leather is used. I figure that’s what the code is for on the bags, to tell you what leather your bag is made from. I’ve never questioned the Chanel items I own because they’ve always smelled of leather.

But if you run a caviar bag under water it will also repel water. I don’t know how they make caviar leather but it’s clearly treated in an extensive fashion. 

I worked in luxury retail and have been educated about the way a lot of items are made. It’s far more complex than some of us believe. Unless I speak to someone who worked with Chanel who can confirm the way something was made it’s hard to really know. I’m not saying you’re wrong about certain things, or other people are, but I don’t think the bonded leather is a general rule for a lot of their bags. It sounds like a new issue because there’s a lot of us on here who’ve had Chanel bags for years and this issue has only recently come up because of the Chanel 22 bags.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> For our next round, we have Clorox degreaser w/ bleach sprayed on, rubbed in and wiped off with a  Clorox wipe, then put back under hot water, dried off. "Lambskin" LMAO.
> 
> View attachment 5577485
> 
> 
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You may not see effects now, but keep doing this and that area will wear. Not sure the coating they use, but I much prefer this than natural lamb.

This coating very much reminds me of my Proenza PS11 bag. I had no idea it was made from coated lamb until long after I purchased it. It looked brand new for months even after heavy every day use, but at some point when I took a closer look I could see the eventual breakdown of leather on a microscopic level. But otherwise it looked brand new for so long. I resold it and it still looked new although I could see the leathers cracking in certain areas that wasn’t visible to others.


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## mzbaglady1

TraceySH said:


> For our next round, we have Clorox degreaser w/ bleach sprayed on, rubbed in and wiped off with a  Clorox wipe, then put back under hot water, dried off. "Lambskin" LMAO.
> 
> View attachment 5577485
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> 
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> 
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I'm sorry but that Clorox degreaser on that bag is about to make me pass out at work. Wouldn't that break down the finish on the bag????


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## Yhte123

mzbaglady1 said:


> I'm sorry but that Clorox degreaser on that bag is about to make me pass out at work. Wouldn't that break down the finish on the bag????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577502



I don’t think so unless if you rub it hard with some elbow grease and left it there for a long time.

Acetone however will break down that coating without any effort in a wipe.


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## zaraha

TraceySH said:


> For our next round, we have Clorox degreaser w/ bleach sprayed on, rubbed in and wiped off with a  Clorox wipe, then put back under hot water, dried off. "Lambskin" LMAO.
> 
> View attachment 5577485
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577486
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Naked Lamb would not survive… it can probably handle some water but not super hot water , I’m surprised bag didn’t melt .  We need a chanel leather cobbler/expert to dissect our 19 or 22 bags, peel it layer by layer ( video will go viral for sure). To me bonded leather for over $5k bag should at least last more than a day ha ha…


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## Yhte123

I’m so ambivalent about this since these synthetic leather coatings are supposed to be hard wearing and provide an extra layer of protection to these delicate leathers.

A lot of sneakers/leather craftsmen and customizers say this layer can be removed with a cheap leather deglazer (Amazon has the ones by Angelus for $5) or Acetone in a pinch.

these coatings as meant to withstand water at even hot temperatures and typical surface cleaners.


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## TraceySH

mpacia said:


> I didn’t say you said the leather is fake, but there’s people saying they wonder if their leather bags are fake, that’s what I’ve been referencing this whole time.
> 
> I can’t chime in on what kind of leather is being used because I’m no expert and haven’t spoken to any. Does Hermes disclose their leather? I don’t recall seeing materials being described in my items from them. I’ve never received a Chanel item that didn’t smell anything other than leather, so I can’t say I’ve every come across anything with a chemical smell. And I guess I can’t recall looking at the paperwork inside Chanel items referring to what leather is used. I figure that’s what the code is for on the bags, to tell you what leather your bag is made from. I’ve never questioned the Chanel items I own because they’ve always smelled of leather.
> 
> But if you run a caviar bag under water it will also repel water. I don’t know how they make caviar leather but it’s clearly treated in an extensive fashion.
> 
> I worked in luxury retail and have been educated about the way a lot of items are made. It’s far more complex than some of us believe. Unless I speak to someone who worked with Chanel who can confirm the way something was made it’s hard to really know. I’m not saying you’re wrong about certain things, or other people are, but I don’t think the bonded leather is a general rule for a lot of their bags. It sounds like a new issue because there’s a lot of us on here who’ve had Chanel bags for years and this issue has only recently come up because of the Chanel 22 bags.


Yes, Hermes discloses in GREAT detail. But they've got their own issues too, and all machine made (except B, K, & a few parts of the C). I've noticed some of their leathers are thinner lately tho. You also said Chanel's lambskin is delicate. And, ummm, clearly it's not. Unless it's on a classic then it falls apart. I have some great pics of a pink lambskin jumbo I got last year that arrived discolored just from being in a box (BN from boutique). It was horrid. And Chanel did NOT stand behind that one (later the whole line was recalled). 

I am not here to convince you. I really don't care if you buy or not. I have bought more Chanel than probably anyone on this forum. My posts here are for people who welcome information about making expensive purchases. They are not for people like you who don't want to hear, don't want to investigate, and don't want to see. So if it's not helpful for you, just move on. No need to belabor a point that you can't substantiate. 

What you DO say, that's key, is that you "don't know". And you say that quite a few times. And this, THIS, is exactly the point. NO one knows anything 100% because Chanel chooses that. They choose to withhold information, withhold production and materials specificity, withhold transparency in the manufacturing chain, along with all the other things they keep from their customers (product information, colors, dimensions, release dates, rules, shipping restrictions, availability, exceptions, etc). They do it in all other areas too, RTW, even the diamonds that come in their fine jewelry (color? clarity? no disclosures). It's not circumscribed to "leather" products, it's the company approach in general. If that works for you, then great!


----------



## TraceySH

mzbaglady1 said:


> I'm sorry but that Clorox degreaser on that bag is about to make me pass out at work. Wouldn't that break down the finish on the bag????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577502


One would assume it would break down ANYTHING.


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## bagsaremyjam

mzbaglady1 said:


> I'm sorry but that Clorox degreaser on that bag is about to make me pass out at work. Wouldn't that break down the finish on the bag????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577502


It will, you just won’t see it right away with this finish. Everything she’s put on there will eventually start wearing at the leather.


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## TraceySH

Yhte123 said:


> I don’t think so unless if you rub it hard with some elbow grease and left it there for a long time.
> 
> Acetone however will break down that coating without any effort in a wipe.


Did I just hear a request for acetone? Here you go!


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Yes, Hermes discloses in GREAT detail. But they've got their own issues too, and all machine made (except B, K, & a few parts of the C). I've noticed some of their leathers are thinner lately tho. You also said Chanel's lambskin is delicate. And, ummm, clearly it's not. Unless it's on a classic then it falls apart. I have some great pics of a pink lambskin jumbo I got last year that arrived discolored just from being in a box (BN from boutique). It was horrid. And Chanel did NOT stand behind that one (later the whole line was recalled).
> 
> I am not here to convince you. I really don't care if you buy or not. I have bought more Chanel than probably anyone on this forum. My posts here are for people who welcome information about making expensive purchases. They are not for people like you who don't want to hear, don't want to investigate, and don't want to see. So if it's not helpful for you, just move on. No need to belabor a point that you can't substantiate.
> 
> What you DO say, that's key, is that you "don't know". And you say that quite a few times. And this, THIS, is exactly the point. NO one knows anything 100% because Chanel chooses that. They choose to withhold information, withhold production and materials specificity, withhold transparency in the manufacturing chain, along with all the other things they keep from their customers (product information, colors, dimensions, release dates, rules, shipping restrictions, availability, exceptions, etc). They do it in all other areas too, RTW, even the diamonds that come in their fine jewelry (color? clarity? no disclosures). It's not circumscribed to "leather" products, it's the company approach in general. If that works for you, then great!


I said almost all their lambskin is delicate, with the exception of the 19. I don’t recall if I disclosed that, but I believe I did. I know that’s the only Chanel lamb that isn’t. I said almost all lambskin is extremely delicate, that’s a fact. 

I’m not saying Chanel doesn’t have issues, they absolutely do!!! But to make a blanket statement that their bags are all made from bonded leather, etc, I believe is false. There’s a difference here. I have purchased SO many Chanel bags. And a lot of people have owned Chanel for a long time with no issues on their bags.  

I’m not going to keep going back and forth with you. Stop buying Chanel then. You’re complaining about your one lamb bag being treated so much that you’re questioning the material. To me the original bag you posted doesn’t look anything like the 22 bag issues, it looks like the rubbing of your clothes ripped the lamb off. 

I only came on here originally to say something about all the fake leather statements. I never said you were wrong. But I’ve literally never had your experience with chemical smelling products either. 

I don’t think you want to see the other side to your argument. Just stop buying the bags and be done with it.


----------



## gail13

If there was no CC on this bag and people knew it was bonded or whatever leather it is, it wouldn't sell for more than a few hundred dollars if that.  What about the quality or design of this makes it worthy of being called luxury, this is a very sad view IMO. I was just looking at the Karl Lagerfeld site assuming that maybe he would have used some of the similar materials. I see one of the lambskin bags says it is to be wiped clean.


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## TraceySH

mpacia said:


> I said almost all their lambskin is delicate, with the exception of the 19. I don’t recall if I disclosed that, but I believe I did. I know that’s the only Chanel lamb that isn’t. I said almost all lambskin is extremely delicate, that’s a fact.
> 
> I’m not saying Chanel doesn’t have issues, they absolutely do!!! But to make a blanket statement that their bags are all made from bonded leather, etc, I believe is false. There’s a difference here. I have purchased SO many Chanel bags. And a lot of people have owned Chanel for a long time with no issues on their bags.
> 
> I’m not going to keep going back and forth with you. Stop buying Chanel then. You’re complaining about your one lamb bag being treated so much that you’re questioning the material. To me the original bag you posted doesn’t look anything like the 22 bag issues, it looks like the rubbing of your clothes ripped the lamb off.
> 
> I only came on here originally to say something about all the fake leather statements. I never said you were wrong. But I’ve literally never had your experience with chemical smelling products either.
> 
> I don’t think you want to see the other side to your argument. Just stop buying the bags and be done with it.


Thank you for stopping by


----------



## Yhte123

TraceySH said:


> Did I just hear a request for acetone? Here you go!
> 
> View attachment 5577508
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> 
> View attachment 5577509
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> 
> View attachment 5577510
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> 
> View attachment 5577512
> 
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> View attachment 5577513



Wow , I stand corrected. I’ve never owned a Chanel 19, but it being able to withstand acetone is strange. I’ve seen repairs/craftsmen using acetone (a lot of it) to dissolve resin/wax coatings or oils accumulated from use. It can polyurethane (fake or the stuff that coats bonded) leather.

Not discounting your experience or anything. It’s just so perplexing wth is going on with these bags.


----------



## TraceySH

Yhte123 said:


> Wow , I stand corrected. I’ve never owned a Chanel 19, but it being able to withstand acetone is strange. I’ve seen repairs/craftsmen using acetone (a lot of it) to dissolve resin/wax coatings or oils accumulated from use. It can polyurethane (fake or the stuff that coats bonded) leather.
> 
> Not discounting your experience or anything. It’s just so perplexing wth is going on with these bags.


Hey, me too. That’s why I posted and for no other reason. I want to know what I’m buying. It shouldn’t be this hard to find out.


----------



## missD

This thread is the highlight of my day. 

Thanks for the mind blown info and the photos OP. You have a set of ⚽️⚽️ to do that to your Chanel! LOL 

Will you still buy Chanel? Or will you really be more picky moving forward?


----------



## TraceySH

missD said:


> This thread is the highlight of my day.
> 
> Thanks for the mind blown info and the photos OP. You have a set of ⚽️⚽️ to do that to your Chanel! LOL
> 
> Will you still buy Chanel? Or will you really be more picky moving forward?


I don’t know. I’d like to see an overhaul of their quality, transparency and engagement with their clientele. For now, I will take a hiatus. I have plenty of bags right now & this whole process has motivated me to get back to houses like Delvaux or Moynat. And no better customer service than LV. So I’ll go where my principles take me & if something changes in the future? Great. I’ll have a look


----------



## JamaisAssez

@TraceySH, thank you for being the Nancy Drew of Purseforum. I really mean it. This whole thread is eye opening. Thank you.



TraceySH said:


> even the diamonds that come in their fine jewelry (color? clarity? no disclosures)



Although not disclosed on CHANEL's website, any knowledgeable SA with fine jewellery training will tell you that CHANEL uses diamonds of VVS clarity, color F to G. Allegedly. That's pretty good in my view.

At least this is what my SA told me.


----------



## kanelbuelle

This whole photo series is insane! Love that you take one for the team by testing these crazy things out. For everyone with an open mind this allows to ask important questions. Was researching a little bit today myself and was surprised how little information about the leathers being used by various fashion houses is openly disclosed. Thanks OP!


----------



## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> @TraceySH, thank you for being the Nancy Drew of Purseforum. I really mean it. This whole thread is eye opening. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> Although not disclosed on CHANEL's website, any knowledgeable SA with fine jewellery training will tell you that CHANEL uses diamonds of VVS clarity, color F to G. Allegedly. That's pretty good in my view.
> 
> At least this is what my SA told me.


You know I asked and was told that BUT …. I am a super diamond expert & they just didn’t look like that to me but hey. Not the biggest of issues.

And. Thank you.  I know I started a brouhaha, but I think we need to demand MORE. It’s time.


----------



## TraceySH

kanelbuelle said:


> This whole photo series is insane! Love that you take one for the team by testing these crazy things out. For everyone with an open mind this allows to ask important questions. Was researching a little bit today myself and was surprised how little information about the leathers being used by various fashion houses is openly disclosed. Thanks OP!


Yes! And that’s all I am hoping for. Transparency and information.


----------



## zaraha

@TraceySH thank you for demonstrating and taking your bag for intense “test drive”. I think maybe many of us are happy to contribute go fund me page “ further disect your bag ha ha.  Would love to see a leather/cobbler can tell what’s inside outer layer.  Any leather expert here has done this? Maybe material they used from Mars. I love this thread…. Keep contributing us with more valuable info plz.


----------



## stylequake

mpacia said:


> But to make a blanket statement that their bags are all made from bonded leather, etc, I believe is false.


She never said "all". I hope you find peace today lol


----------



## bagsaremyjam

stylequake said:


> She never said "all". I hope you find peace today lol


Dramatic much? I’m at peace, thanks. She said the “bags are made of bonded leather.” She didn’t have to say “all” to make a blanket statement. She’s clearly referring to Chanel bags and generalizing. I never said some Chanel bags can’t/don’t have quality issues. She just refuses to acknowledge the flip side of her pov.


----------



## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> @TraceySH thank you for demonstrating and taking your bag for intense “test drive”. I think maybe many of us are happy to contribute go fund me page “ further disect your bag ha ha.  Would love to see a leather/cobbler can tell what’s inside outer layer.  Any leather expert here has done this? Maybe material they used from Mars. I love this thread…. Keep contributing us with more valuable info plz.


I am dying to get inside that thing! But I also really like the dark grey one. I clearly woke up in a sassy mood, maybe the next one will involve a lil surgery lol


----------



## TraceySH

mpacia said:


> Dramatic much? I’m at peace, thanks. She said the “bags are made of bonded leather.” She didn’t have to say “all” to make a blanket statement. She’s clearly referring to Chanel bags and generalizing. I never said some Chanel bags can’t/don’t have quality issues. She just refuses to acknowledge the flip side of her pov.


SMH again. I think I’ve acknowledged the “flip side” by spending millions of dollars with Chanel, no? And 50k this month? No?


----------



## Greentea

I have been done with Chanel for years except for vintage and this only reinforces my standing. I'm really sorry to those who bought bags and then had issues. They need to stop, regroup, and go back to whatever they were doing in the early 2000s because it's the last time the bags were truly well made and even worth a fraction of the price


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> SMH again. I think I’ve acknowledged the “flip side” by spending millions of dollars with Chanel, no? And 50k this month? No?


Well if that’s the case not sure why you’re so upset about me questioning your claims. I never said you were wrong, but don’t agree with all the bags being bonded. I have agreed with some of the things you’ve said, not all. You’re taking offense to comments I was addressing to other people. But still fail to acknowledge that there are plenty of well made Chanel bags. No need to brag about your million dollar spending. Eye roll.


----------



## gail13

TPF is supposed to be a place to educate and bring up other POV which is what OP is doing here. I know there are going to be plenty of people who only want to feel good about what they are buying, and thats ok. For myself, I say no to bonded leather at this price point. If people are aware of what they are buying and still get the luxury expedience, thats fine.  I also have alot of experience in luxury as well as manufacturing processes and I was pretty shocked to find out how products are priced has nothing to do with quality. That little white T shirt I bought in the wholesale district for $3 can be sold at various places from $10-$300 depending upon what label someone wants to put inside. 

I do not believe all SA's know or want to know what they are selling. But I have had a few long time SA's tell me not to buy this or that, trying to steer me away from things they know are not good. Luckily many of the things alot us long time Chanel clients have bought were from the best of the Karl years. To me, the new items really don't compare in terms of quality or imagination. 

At this point, Chanel or the other fashion houses, can prove to us the items they are selling are worthy of the asking price. Why exactly should we pay $6k? Maybe another thread? Why is that bag worth $6k etc.  Looking online at other less priced bags, its interesting other mid priced and less companies are putting out very specific details about construction, why is that?


----------



## platanoparty

Tracey I’m curious if you have 100% acetone? I think the mix you have would be an acetone based nail polish if I’m not mistaken. I think a pure acetone would show how the leather would react (and deglaze if there is something there?) but of course don’t hurt your bag just for our sake. I respect if acetone or flame or whatever would just be too intense!

As a long time chanel customer has this change been gradual from your view or is it a big change as of recently? Just judging by recent concerns across platforms it seems this year and the 22 is what sparked a lot of concern. I know there have always been calls for quality concern but that happens at a lot of brands. Weird stitching here and there or crooked stuff. But the leather you highlighted in the original post is just shocking and really a bummer. I haven’t bought a bag recently but I did feel my caramel lamb skin mini from February was strangely dry and waxy? So I wonder if it’s that same issue others are discussing.


----------



## zaraha

Actually I’m so glad so many of us raising concerns over bonded leather quality issues across media or any social platform.  If we don’t then who will? All we are asking is   transparency of what we are paying $$$.  I don’t know if anyone willing to spend $$$ for a bonded leather and for that item to break down after 1 wear.  
These big companies needs to know they can’t just get away with selling “sh@t”, they should be somewhat responsible for their company reputation.  
In my opinion OP is not bragging at all, she has lot of experience with chanel over the years, spending her  hard earned money on luxury goods.  I think she is only trying to express her opinion here for consumers like me to educate ourselves.  Not just buy things so blindly but know what’s inside those materials or why things break down after one wear.   Because of people like her we get to expose dirty side of dirty business.


----------



## TraceySH

platanoparty said:


> Tracey I’m curious if you have 100% acetone? I think the mix you have would be an acetone based nail polish if I’m not mistaken. I think a pure acetone would show how the leather would react (and deglaze if there is something there?) but of course don’t hurt your bag just for our sake. I respect if acetone or flame or whatever would just be too intense!
> 
> As a long time chanel customer has this change been gradual from your view or is it a big change as of recently? Just judging by recent concerns across platforms it seems this year and the 22 is what sparked a lot of concern. I know there have always been calls for quality concern but that happens at a lot of brands. Weird stitching here and there or crooked stuff. But the leather you highlighted in the original post is just shocking and really a bummer. I haven’t bought a bag recently but I did feel my caramel lamb skin mini from February was strangely dry and waxy? So I wonder if it’s that same issue others are discussing.


I think lots of it is gradual. Always the issues - upside down clasps, crooked flaps, etc but the concerns about the actual composition of the leather, at least for me, started with the 19??


----------



## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> Actually I’m so glad so many of us raising concerns over bonded leather quality issues across media or any social platform.  If we don’t then who will? All we are asking is   transparency of what we are paying $$$.  I don’t know if anyone willing to spend $$$ for a bonded leather and for that item to break down after 1 wear.
> These big companies needs to know they can’t just get away with selling “sh@t”, they should be somewhat responsible for their company reputation.
> In my opinion OP is not bragging at all, she has lot of experience with chanel over the years, spending her  hard earned money on luxury goods.  I think she is only trying to express her opinion here for consumers like me to educate ourselves.  Not just buy things so blindly but know what’s inside those materials or why things break down after one wear.   Because of people like her we get to expose dirty side of dirty business.


So money is the only way you’re judged by any house. You only attain status by spending money. And that’s all you are to them. You can’t be a VIC because you’re nice or bring them cookies. It’s a measurable status by only one thing - spending money. In that vein, status is important. It’s the only reason I’ve been able to send concerns all the way up the food chain & be on conference calls with regional directors etc. Money. That’s it. 

If I speak here I speak to them. I don’t hide and just vent here, I say exactly the same things everywhere to everyone. And, usually I receive deference because…. Money. 

If they decide I’m a liability because I ask questions or decide to ban me, it affects my life exactly 0%. I don’t care. I care about what’s right and what’s honest. And if I get the floor because of my status, I’ll use it.


----------



## EpiFanatic

TraceySH said:


> For our next round, we have Clorox degreaser w/ bleach sprayed on, rubbed in and wiped off with a  Clorox wipe, then put back under hot water, dried off. "Lambskin" LMAO.
> 
> View attachment 5577485
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577486
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577487
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577488
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577489
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577490
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577491
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577492


Just wanna say thank you for being willing to be the sacrificial lamb to subject your 19 to these tests. I had to LOL at what you were putting it through. Now I will use my 19 without worry. Personally if it feels great and can withstand daily wear with reasonable care, I’m good to go. Your posts are helpful and helps us to be aware of the possibilities.


----------



## EpiFanatic

TraceySH said:


> So money is the only way you’re judged by any house. You only attain status by spending money. And that’s all you are to them. You can’t be a VIC because you’re nice or bring them cookies. It’s a measurable status by only one thing - spending money. In that vein, status is important. It’s the only reason I’ve been able to send concerns all the way up the food chain & be on conference calls with regional directors etc. Money. That’s it.
> 
> If I speak here I speak to them. I don’t hide and just vent here, I say exactly the same things everywhere to everyone. And, usually I receive deference because…. Money.
> 
> If they decide I’m a liability because I ask questions or decide to ban me, it affects my life exactly 0%. I don’t care. I care about what’s right and what’s honest. And if I get the floor because of my status, I’ll use it.


You’re not lying. They listen because you spend a lot. That’s how businesses are run. Good for you for speaking up and being honest about your concerns. Thanks for sharing what your knowledge.


----------



## ntntgo

I had to read this whole thread before commenting. First of all, thank you to the OP for starting this thread and putting not one but 2 of her 19s to the test. 
I’ve been a legacy Camellia client for longer than just about anyone I know and I live in Palm Beach, so that’s saying something. 
I am one of maybe 50 people in the world who has been allowed to custom create 2 bags. But let’s be clear, Chanel is not a leather house.  They are a fashion brand. They are not a Launer, Hermes or Delvaux. Chanel didnt start making handbags until 1955 (the 255). Chanel is a couturier. 
So to be hearing stories of their RTW and even some couture pieces, falling apart while they’re being tried on should tell you all you need to know about the quality of the brand. 
Yes, my avatar is the Man Ray photo only because it’s beeenthat since I started on TPF almost 15 years ago and it reminds me of when Chanel stood for quality, not status. 
Everything OP has stated, I can say that I too independently know to be factual. A lot of the problems started when they built the Chinese run factory in Italy so that the bags could legally be stamped “Made in Italy”. 
I realize that this has little to do with OPs initial complaint but I felt some context and history of the brand needed to be added as the subpar quality of bags should be of little surprise when the product for which Chanel built the brand on, which is clothing, is barely wearable without concern of it falling apart. That should tell you something.


----------



## JamaisAssez

ntntgo said:


> as the subpar quality of bags should be of little surprise when the product for which Chanel built the brand on, which is clothing, is barely wearable without concern of it falling apart. That should tell you something.


It's hard to stomach the fact that CHANEL is fast fashion for the rich. I myself, like @TraceySH, have tried time and time again to convince myself otherwise, but this whole thread has made me a more conscious, informed consumer.

To me, fast fashion is churning out 8 collections a year (Spring/Summer, Fall/Winter, Spring Pre-collection, Fall Pre-collection, Cruise, Métiers d'art, Coco Neige and Coco Beach) plus 2 couture shows.

Sharing the image below to remind us all that Fashion is fashion, and not necessarily quality (or taste).


----------



## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> It's hard to stomach the fact that CHANEL is fast fashion for the rich. I myself, like @TraceySH, have tried time and time again to convince myself otherwise, but this whole thread has made me a more conscious, informed consumer.
> 
> To me, fast fashion is churning out 8 collections a year (Spring/Summer, Fall/Winter, Spring Pre-collection, Fall Pre-collection, Cruise, Métiers d'art, Coco Neige and Coco Beach) plus 2 couture shows.
> 
> Sharing the image below to remind us all that Fashion is fashion, and not necessarily quality (or taste).
> 
> View attachment 5578144


OMG I had forgotten about this one. Oh it's SOOO bad, but "everyone" wanted it at the time b/c it was CHANEL. And yeah, what IS the difference b/w fast fashion and an expensive luxury brand producing JUST AS MUCH IF NOT MORE? I know the boutiques periodically have to send back loads of old season stuff to some repository. I don't know what happens to them after that.


----------



## TraceySH

ntntgo said:


> I had to read this whole thread before commenting. First of all, thank you to the OP for starting this thread and putting not one but 2 of her 19s to the test.
> I’ve been a legacy Camellia client for longer than just about anyone I know and I live in Palm Beach, so that’s saying something.
> I am one of maybe 50 people in the world who has been allowed to custom create 2 bags. But let’s be clear, Chanel is not a leather house.  They are a fashion brand. They are not a Launer, Hermes or Delvaux. Chanel didnt start making handbags until 1955 (the 255). Chanel is a couturier.
> So to be hearing stories of their RTW and even some couture pieces, falling apart while they’re being tried on should tell you all you need to know about the quality of the brand.
> Yes, my avatar is the Man Ray photo only because it’s beeenthat since I started on TPF almost 15 years ago and it reminds me of when Chanel stood for quality, not status.
> Everything OP has stated, I can say that I too independently know to be factual. A lot of the problems started when they built the Chinese run factory in Italy so that the bags could legally be stamped “Made in Italy”.
> I realize that this has little to do with OPs initial complaint but I felt some context and history of the brand needed to be added as the subpar quality of bags should be of little surprise when the product for which Chanel built the brand on, which is clothing, is barely wearable without concern of it falling apart. That should tell you something.


I envy you being around for Chanel glory days! I think that's the essence (granted it's running on fumes) that Chanel is continuing to thrive on. I would love to hear some of your stories! Do you still have those bespoke bags? I am sure they are gorgeous!! 

Chanel had to make a sustainability pledge back during the pandemic when they took out a loan for  $500m. I don't know why, as part of that, they DON'T have some kind of bespoke or custom order selections for CF's. Even just a small menu. Style, material, and color (choose from a finite amount) and then wait 6 months. Why not that?? Their approach seems to be anything but sustainable & items they're making are anything but heirloom.

It wasn't until recently that they cut out the western version of the RTW lines. They used to have 2, one for asian, one for western (everything was a bit longer). That's one of the reasons everything is so short now, they cut out the western line (Asian sales are more lucrative). 

But, bottom line is that we will never know. They will never tell us. They will never be transparent. They will never engage directly with their clientele. They will never court or convince us to choose them over "the other guys" because.....they don't have to. They could make plastic garbage sacks, and everyone would buy them. Which, they actually have w/ the 22 so the jokes on us


----------



## JamaisAssez

TraceySH said:


> It wasn't until recently that they cut out the western version of the RTW lines. They used to have 2, one for asian, one for western (everything was a bit longer). That's one of the reasons everything is so short now, they cut out the western line (Asian sales are more lucrative).


Incidentally, Tracey, how has your purple Métiers cardigan held up? And your purple classic flap?


----------



## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> Incidentally, Tracey, how has your purple Métiers cardigan held up? And your purple classic flap?


Cardigan & purple classic flap are GREAT. No issues at all! There are some amazing items in all this mess, I think you just have to look for them & be pretty careful. Remember the teddy sweater? I had 6 of them. And one day I was like...wait WHAT IS THIS...(so weird stuff has been going on for a few years for sure now). Those were all tags on, same size...look @ the lengths of sleeves...


----------



## sweetpea_2009

TraceySH said:


> They could make plastic garbage sacks, and everyone would buy them. Which, they actually have w/ the 22 so the jokes on us


I happened to catch this commercial on TV this morning and it immediately made me think of the 22. I had a good chuckle about it.


----------



## TraceySH

atlsweetpea11 said:


> I happened to catch this commercial on TV this morning and it immediately made me think of the 22. I had a good chuckle about it.



OMG I just spit my coffee hahahahhahahahahahaha


----------



## zaraha

atlsweetpea11 said:


> I happened to catch this commercial on TV this morning and it immediately made me think of the 22. I had a good chuckle about it.



Omg this looks just like my pink 22  ha ha ha…. Now I need to find similar pink dress.  hilarious our phones and tv are tracking everything we say and do.


----------



## Izzy_w

@TraceySH I nearly passed out seeing all those pics of you experimenting on your 19!!!  But thank you very much for sharing! I have 3 C19 and I feel they are made very well...not like the 22.


----------



## tulipfield

Amazing thread, thank you so much OP for your daring!  I kind of decided I was done with Chanel a few seasons back when I bought and returned two pairs of forties-style platforms with faulty straps and buckles (one fell clean off!).  So I felt even shoes weren’t safe.

A couple of you have mentioned problems with RTW… the one thing I did still have my eye on was a Chanel suit, I’ve just been waiting for one to come along that I especially like.  Would I be better served going the vintage route for suits as well?


----------



## GucciGoneWild

As someone who has only recently started buying and learning about luxury bags (past 3-4 years, relatively recent to many people on TPF), it was apparent to me fairly quickly that Chanel is not what it used to be. It’s upsetting that I wasn’t around for the vintage days but that’s a matter of birth lol. Either way, within a short period of time I saw the most crooked flaps that would even make the SA cringe.  I’ve also seen stunning classic flaps in the St Tropez boutique and been able to have my pick of three amazingly crafted bags.  Sad to say, I have a feeling that depending on the country you’re in, Chanel quality can largely differ.  Also sad to say, but if you don’t have a good relationship with a store or SA then you’ll often be stuck with only one of an item and be forced to either live with the poor quality or defect or say no to your dream bag because of how they’re restricting as of late (at least in the US).  

There’s SO much valuable information on here (thanks to all the OGs) that can help new consumers be aware and mindful! Honestly after only a few months I started looking to H because the difference in quality was striking. I agree with @TraceySH - there are still really well made pieces from Chanel, including bags, but you have to be willing to look for them and have your eyes open enough to see the flaws.  I bought two bags just this month and the first thing I did upon opening the box was a thorough inspection, before getting attached, and IMO they are both gorgeous and well made.  

Just like any other big business, there is a TON going on behind the scenes that we don’t know about (manufacturing wise, etc). Just go into it like any other purchase from a big machine, with a touch of skepticism. Don’t let Chanel pull the tweed over your eyes, so to speak.


----------



## TraceySH

Izzy_w said:


> @TraceySH I nearly passed out seeing all those pics of you experimenting on your 19!!!  But thank you very much for sharing! I have 3 C19 and I feel they are made very well...not like the 22.


I think they are well made. I don't think 100% leather, BUT there are some good tradeoffs to that (as you can see from my fun videos haha).


----------



## TraceySH

tulipfield said:


> Amazing thread, thank you so much OP for your daring!  I kind of decided I was done with Chanel a few seasons back when I bought and returned two pairs of forties-style platforms with faulty straps and buckles (one fell clean off!).  So I felt even shoes weren’t safe.
> 
> A couple of you have mentioned problems with RTW… the one thing I did still have my eye on was a Chanel suit, I’ve just been waiting for one to come along that I especially like.  Would I be better served going the vintage route for suits as well?


I'd go vintage all the way here....those were made to last for generations. Today's stuff really is just expensive fast fashion...and no more handmade lesage either...


----------



## zaraha

atlsweetpea11 said:


> I happened to catch this commercial on TV this morning and it immediately made me think of the 22. I had a good chuckle about it.



I had to add my version, was gonna photoshop but don’t have that kind time now. Dont have pink dress to match but chanel tweed will do ha ha. 
Feel free to express, I am not offended lol.  After all chanel is about trash fashion not about quality anyway.


----------



## TraceySH

GucciGoneWild said:


> As someone who has only recently started buying and learning about luxury bags (past 3-4 years, relatively recent to many people on TPF), it was apparent to me fairly quickly that Chanel is not what it used to be. It’s upsetting that I wasn’t around for the vintage days but that’s a matter of birth lol. Either way, within a short period of time I saw the most crooked flaps that would even make the SA cringe.  I’ve also seen stunning classic flaps in the St Tropez boutique and been able to have my pick of three amazingly crafted bags.  Sad to say, I have a feeling that depending on the country you’re in, Chanel quality can largely differ.  Also sad to say, but if you don’t have a good relationship with a store or SA then you’ll often be stuck with only one of an item and be forced to either live with the poor quality or defect or say no to your dream bag because of how they’re restricting as of late (at least in the US).
> 
> There’s SO much valuable information on here (thanks to all the OGs) that can help new consumers be aware and mindful! Honestly after only a few months I started looking to H because the difference in quality was striking. I agree with @TraceySH - there are still really well made pieces from Chanel, including bags, but you have to be willing to look for them and have your eyes open enough to see the flaws.  I bought two bags just this month and the first thing I did upon opening the box was a thorough inspection, before getting attached, and IMO they are both gorgeous and well made.
> 
> Just like any other big business, there is a TON going on behind the scenes that we don’t know about (manufacturing wise, etc). Just go into it like any other purchase from a big machine, with a touch of skepticism. Don’t let Chanel pull the tweed over your eyes, so to speak.


All really great points here!


----------



## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> I had to add my version, was gonna photoshop but don’t have that kind time now. Dont have pink dress to match but chanel tweed will do ha ha.
> Feel free to express, I am not offended lol.  After all chanel is about trash fashion not about quality anyway.
> 
> View attachment 5578264


This is great Friday stuff right here. Your pinks are really gorgeous tho...


----------



## tulipfield

TraceySH said:


> I'd go vintage all the way here....those were made to last for generations. Today's stuff really is just expensive fast fashion...and no more handmade lesage either...


Well that makes my decision easier, can’t beat the prices on vintage pieces either.  Can you elaborate about the Lesage embroidery?  Is it reserved just for haute couture now?


----------



## mzbaglady1

JamaisAssez said:


> It's hard to stomach the fact that CHANEL is fast fashion for the rich. I myself, like @TraceySH, have tried time and time again to convince myself otherwise, but this whole thread has made me a more conscious, informed consumer.
> 
> To me, fast fashion is churning out 8 collections a year (Spring/Summer, Fall/Winter, Spring Pre-collection, Fall Pre-collection, Cruise, Métiers d'art, Coco Neige and Coco Beach) plus 2 couture shows.
> 
> Sharing the image below to remind us all that Fashion is fashion, and not necessarily quality (or taste).
> 
> View attachment 5578144


LOL!!!! I immediately thought of Jim Carey on the show in Living Color. He did a skit in a bikini that's Hilarious!


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> Cardigan & purple classic flap are GREAT. No issues at all! There are some amazing items in all this mess, I think you just have to look for them & be pretty careful. Remember the teddy sweater? I had 6 of them. And one day I was like...wait WHAT IS THIS...(so weird stuff has been going on for a few years for sure now). Those were all tags on, same size...look @ the lengths of sleeves...
> 
> View attachment 5578195


Oh, you took advantage of the elbow length, bracelet length and wrist length sweater options.....I think QC missed a few things.


----------



## gail13

zaraha said:


> I had to add my version, was gonna photoshop but don’t have that kind time now. Dont have pink dress to match but chanel tweed will do ha ha.
> Feel free to express, I am not offended lol.  After all chanel is about trash fashion not about quality anyway.
> 
> View attachment 5578273







Do you think Hefty will get sued for trademark infringement? Or if they were first maybe Chanel committed the violation.


----------



## nsughtnsugahyde

Hi everyone. Thank you OP for posting what I’ve thought for years. 
I’m new to TPF as I don’t normally have time for social media. 
For those of you who don’t know what Naugahyde is, Google it and you’ll understand what the 22 is made of. 
OP your picture of the Teddy Sweaters killed me. I bought 2 and the arms on one were elbow length. But that’s a whole other thread. 
The person who posted the Hefty bag ad next to her 22 is genius as that’s exactly what that bag looked like when I went in to the boutique to pick up the one I had been charged for. 
Needless to say, I left my rose gold Hefty bag there to be returned. 
This thread is both informative & hilarious and I am so happy that I took the time to finally join TPF. 
Look at how horrible this is and it’s not empty either. 
Again, thank you OP for bringing this out from the shadows that Chanel would like to keep it in


----------



## bagsaremyjam

ntntgo said:


> I had to read this whole thread before commenting. First of all, thank you to the OP for starting this thread and putting not one but 2 of her 19s to the test.
> I’ve been a legacy Camellia client for longer than just about anyone I know and I live in Palm Beach, so that’s saying something.
> I am one of maybe 50 people in the world who has been allowed to custom create 2 bags. But let’s be clear, Chanel is not a leather house.  They are a fashion brand. They are not a Launer, Hermes or Delvaux. Chanel didnt start making handbags until 1955 (the 255). Chanel is a couturier.
> So to be hearing stories of their RTW and even some couture pieces, falling apart while they’re being tried on should tell you all you need to know about the quality of the brand.
> Yes, my avatar is the Man Ray photo only because it’s beeenthat since I started on TPF almost 15 years ago and it reminds me of when Chanel stood for quality, not status.
> Everything OP has stated, I can say that I too independently know to be factual. A lot of the problems started when they built the Chinese run factory in Italy so that the bags could legally be stamped “Made in Italy”.
> I realize that this has little to do with OPs initial complaint but I felt some context and history of the brand needed to be added as the subpar quality of bags should be of little surprise when the product for which Chanel built the brand on, which is clothing, is barely wearable without concern of it falling apart. That should tell you something.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

This message is not directed to the OP, as I believe there was communication issues/misunderstandings on possibly both ends, and I don’t even want to continue with that dialogue.

However, for the sake of others on here, and for educational purposes, I want to share. For those curious about what’s coated on the classic 19 bags (since there’s a durability coated on the leather that isn’t often seen on lambskin), I found a forum focused on leather and this answer is insightful.

The Balenciaga lambskin jacket pictured is what this person is referring to, and the appearance looks very much like the classic 19 bag.


----------



## JamaisAssez

"Lambskin is often coated with a shiny acrylic finish in order to further weatherproof the hide & give it longevity."

Right, but Tracey also rubbed acetone on the 19 lol...Wouldn't that cause deterioration of this alleged acrylic coating?


----------



## 880

bagsaremyjam said:


> This message is not directed to the OP, as I believe there was communication issues/misunderstandings on possibly both ends, and I don’t even want to continue with that dialogue.
> 
> However, for the sake of others on here, and for educational purposes, I want to share. For those curious about what’s coated on the classic 19 bags (since there’s a durability coated on the leather that isn’t often seen on lambskin), I found a forum focused on leather and this answer is insightful.
> 
> The Balenciaga lambskin jacket pictured is what this person is referring to, and the appearance looks very much like the classic 19 bag.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5578543
> View attachment 5578544


Interesting, thank youl I have a chanel lambskin skirt from 2001 that is still in excellent condition, but it is soft and shiny.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

JamaisAssez said:


> "Lambskin is often coated with a shiny acrylic finish in order to further weatherproof the hide & give it longevity."
> 
> Right, but Tracey also rubbed acetone on the 19 lol...Wouldn't that cause deterioration of this alleged acrylic coating?


I’m not a leather expert, but I believe even though it may not seem to be doing anything initially, I’m sure over time it will wear in that area. Just like anything sitting on a material for long periods will eventually do.

Another commenter on here said a cheap coating could be penetrated easily, while that could be in question with a higher quality coating.

I’m merely sharing this info. The leather and coating look similar. Maybe others will find more info on acrylic being used on lambskin. I don’t have answers. I said it was insightful, and it could be a clue as to what’s laying on the lambskin.


----------



## gail13

Looking back through this thread and what OP originally posted, That chunk of color missing and that wrinkling is not something real leather would do. If there was leather underneath a coating like that, there would be hide poking thru. There is white substance that appears to look like a liner, which looks alot like the 22 bag issues. That top coat is very very thin and delicate.

I can understand lambskin having a coating on it and I'm good with that.  My question is, what is the material being used for some of these newer bags styles? I myself also wonder what the newer 19 bag are made of. I have a leather SLG of the 19 style and it is heavier leather. When I compare it to my 19 its much different.

When I buy a luxury item and it says leather, my expectation is its mostly real leather.


----------



## TraceySH

Wellllllll for everyone here. I called Chanel's 800 customer service line and asked if they had some documentation they could provide that stated their bags are 100% leather, including the 19 and the 22. The person I spoke with said they don't and they cannot provide any more specifics about the materials used other than what is listed on the site. 

So. Everyone can take that one of 2 ways. I know how I take it, but some will insist on defending the lack of transparency. SO, "straight from the horse's mouth", so to speak. You guys decide.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> Looking back through this thread and what OP originally posted, That chunk of color missing and that wrinkling is not something real leather would do. If there was leather underneath a coating like that, there would be hide poking thru. There is white substance that appears to look like a liner, which looks alot like the 22 bag issues. That top coat is very very thin and delicate.
> 
> I can understand lambskin having a coating on it and I'm good with that.  My question is, what is the material being used for some of these newer bags styles? I myself also wonder what the newer 19 bag are made of. I have a leather SLG of the 19 style and it is heavier leather. When I compare it to my 19 its much different.
> 
> When I buy a luxury item and it says leather, my expectation is its mostly real leather.


My 19 bag is goatskin. Smells like leather the day I bought it and it still does. Have no comment on the lamb 19 as I don’t own it, but have been told by SA’s it’s more durable because it’s treated.


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> Wellllllll for everyone here. I called Chanel's 800 customer service line and asked if they had some documentation they could provide that stated their bags are 100% leather, including the 19 and the 22. The person I spoke with said they don't and they cannot provide any more specifics about the materials used other than what is listed on the site.
> 
> So. Everyone can take that one of 2 ways. I know how I take it, but some will insist on defending the lack of transparency. SO, "straight from the horse's mouth", so to speak. You guys decide.


Well that does not surprise me. I asked one of my SA's a few weeks ago that I heard these were bonded leather and he told me point blank he knew the metallics were but was not sure about the others. I was shocked. I asked if he had heard about some of the quality issues popping up and he said yes....and I asked if I bought this and it started to peel would I be able to return or would I need to repair and he said the latter. So I passed on it.  But I have seen a few other bags non metallic and now this 19 tote, which is why I have started to question other bags that appear to have a similar finish.


----------



## platanoparty

JamaisAssez said:


> "Lambskin is often coated with a shiny acrylic finish in order to further weatherproof the hide & give it longevity."
> 
> Right, but Tracey also rubbed acetone on the 19 lol...Wouldn't that cause deterioration of this alleged acrylic coating?


That’s a valid point but it wasn’t 100% acetone. I think it had enough other ingredients that it wouldn’t have the same effect many reference with regards to 100% acetone and deglazers.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> Well that does not surprise me. I asked one of my SA's a few weeks ago that I heard these were bonded leather and he told me point blank he knew the metallics were but was not sure about the others. I was shocked. I asked if he had heard about some of the quality issues popping up and he said yes....and I asked if I bought this and it started to peel would I be able to return or would I need to repair and he said the latter. So I passed on it.  But I have seen a few other bags non metallic and now this 19 tote, which is why I have started to question other bags that appear to have a similar finish.


Well at least you got more of a direct answer than I did. So some are, some aren't. Some are leather some are pleather. It's a gamble no matter how anyone looks at it. Maybe you'll be ok, maybe you won't. Maybe it's leather, maybe it's Frankenstein. Maybe you'll get refunded, maybe you won't. Maybe it can be repaired if it disintegrates, maybe it can't. 

Sure feels like luxury


----------



## gail13

bagsaremyjam said:


> My 19 bag is goatskin. Smells like leather the day I bought it and it still does. Have no comment on the lamb 19 as I don’t own it, but have been told by SA’s it’s more durable because it’s treated.


I have the original 19 in Goatskin also. It does smell like leather. I'm really commenting on the 22 bag and now the new 19 tote that OP posted. I don't understand why the 19 Tote would be made differently than the 19 bag tho-does that make sense? Something changed. These are newer quality issues and they aren't good.


----------



## platanoparty

@gail13 and @TraceySH these are intriguing updates!! I find it disheartening that people are getting mixed answers from SAs - either refund or repair. Point blank if your bag or any item is that messed up it should be a refund without question


----------



## TraceySH

platanoparty said:


> @gail13 and @TraceySH these are intriguing updates!! I find it disheartening that people are getting mixed answers from SAs - either refund or repair. Point blank if your bag or any item is that messed up it should be a refund without question


Or maybe the entire responsibly lies in Chanel’s approach to their own products. We shouldn’t  ever have a thread like this. Just think about it. What we are all saying. This is ridiculous. Sane people just walk away & don’t have time for all these shenanigans. Just shows our tolerance has been lowered to a level below reasonable. Our expectations of them mediocre on a good day. Kind of shocking really. Their psychological warfare is top notch


----------



## snowing may

I know OP mainly commented on the new 19 and 22. But what about the new lambskin minis ppl are chasing after? Reading through the whole thread makes me wonder what type of ‘ lambskin’ they actually use for those minis. 

I played with the new lambskin minis ( black or seasonal colours ) through recent years in store and the leather texture felt sooooooo different from my old lambskin minis from 2013 and 2014. The SA would say that the new lambskin is much more durable than the old ones BUT now I am wondering what they put on the mini lambskin to make it more durable?? Are they really 100% lambskin like my old lamb minis??

I used to think bags in leather are definitely more justified for Chanel’s high price tags. But now I feel bags in fabric may be better because at least you know what you are getting ( 100% fabric ). Chanel needs to be more transparent about their leather bags. We are paying for a leather bag and we expect to get a 100% leather bag.


----------



## TraceySH

snowing may said:


> I know OP mainly commented on the new 19 and 22. But what about the new lambskin minis ppl are chasing after? Reading through the whole thread makes me wonder what type of ‘ lambskin’ they actually use for those minis.
> 
> I played with the new lambskin minis ( black or seasonal colours ) through recent years in store and the leather texture felt sooooooo different from my old lambskin minis from 2013 and 2014. The SA would say that the new lambskin is much more durable than the old ones BUT now I am wondering what they put on the mini lambskin to make it more durable?? Are they really 100% lambskin like my old lamb minis??
> 
> I used to think bags in leather are definitely more justified for Chanel’s high price tags. But now I feel bags in fabric may be better because at least you know what you are getting ( 100% fabric ). Chanel needs to be more transparent about their leather bags. We are paying for a leather bag and we expect to get a 100% leather bag.


ITA. I was thinking about that yesterday too. At least the fabric bags we know what we are getting. And other brands are doing this plasticky vague "leather" stuff too, not just Chanel. It's interesting though because like, Balenciaga says "100% lamb leather". And BV has the same. Chloe also. Lots of 100%'s published out there in descriptions which makes me think they are doing this to differentiate from the non-100% ones?


----------



## zaraha

Chanel is not so shy to disclose what type of RTW material used and what % used: such as 100% cashmere, 100% lambskin, 90% Cotton ect.  Wish they did this for leather bags too.


----------



## EpiFanatic

Since we’re not getting anymore info from Chanel, I thought I’d compare the lambskin on the 19 to my 25 plus years old lambskin jacket, which my daughter has now inherited. It’s not a designer jacket but made by a reputable leather company using very high quality lambskin.  I know because I have family member that worked at that company for years and was intimate with the construction of the leather pieces. This company supplied high end retail companies, but no longer because their materials were too expensive and retailers did not want to pay those prices. Anyway here are some pics from a distance and some magnified by 30x by my jewelers loupe. 

I’ll just say by touch, feel and look, I’m personally comfortable that every surface that I can feel on the 19 is treated/coated lambskin, though based on @TraceySH ‘s experiments apparently heavily coated. I think from a functional standpoint I am ok with that. If I can use it and not worry about it getting easily damaged to the extent that the damage is obvious, then the bag works for me. 

Here is my jacket from a distance. And then with the 19 up close next to it. 









And then at 30x magnification. My jacket is in the middle. The top and bottom are different parts of the 19 bag.



This is one shows my jacket on top and the 19 on the bottom. 



It’s unfortunate that Chanel will not disclose more.  I just need to use my own judgement to determine what I trust the materials to be and what works for me from the functional standpoint of a purse.


----------



## TraceySH

EpiFanatic said:


> Since we’re not getting anymore info from Chanel, I thought I’d compare the lambskin on the 19 to my 25 plus lambskin jacket, which my daughter has now inherited. It’s not a designer jacket but made by a reputable leather company using very high quality lambskin.  I know because I have family member that worked at that company for years and was intimate with the construction of the leather pieces. This company supplied high end retail companies, but no longer because their materials were too expensive and retailers did not want to pay those prices. Anyway here are some pics from a distance and some magnified by 30x by my jewelers loupe.
> 
> I’ll just say by touch, feel and look, I’m personally comfortable that every surface that I can feel on the 19 is treated/coated lambskin, though based on @TraceySH ‘s experiments apparently heavily coated. I think from a functional standpoint I am ok with that. If I can use it and not worry about it getting easily damaged to the extent that the damage is obvious, then the bag works for me.
> 
> Here is my jacket from a distance. And then with the 19 up close next to it.
> 
> View attachment 5578654
> View attachment 5578655
> View attachment 5578656
> View attachment 5578657
> View attachment 5578658
> View attachment 5578659
> 
> 
> And then at 30x magnification. My jacket is in the middle. The top and bottom are different parts of the 19 bag.
> View attachment 5578662
> 
> 
> This is one shows my jacket on top and the 19 on the bottom.
> View attachment 5578663
> 
> 
> It’s unfortunate that Chanel will not disclose more.  I just need to use my own judgement to determine what I trust the materials to be and what works for me from the functional standpoint of a purse.


Thank you for doing this!! I don't doubt at all the the 19's are lambskin/ goatskin/ etc, I just doubt that some or most of them are 100% lambskin or goatskin...bonded leather can have the exact same patterning as leather but it's "mixed" with other things. Also, what layer of the leather are they using? Full grain? Top grain? Bottom? "Leather"? (which means lower layers). 

So I am not even saying that's bad. Sometimes, clearly from my "experiments", that can make those bags insanely durable. BUT, I just think we have the right to know WHAT it IS? And also, if they ARE using bonded leather, which we know they are for some things, that's extremely inexpensive, so also, we have the right to know b/c these are big $$ decisions. 

Remember too that part of the bonded leather process is to stamp that material to look EXACTLY LIKE the leather it's attempting to mimic. It can be nearly impossible to tell the difference. But, all leather has pores, and absorbs ...which makes these questionable as they are waterproof. SO, it's not always good/ bad /right/ wrong, it's why aren't they telling us so we can at least make informed decisions?


----------



## EpiFanatic

TraceySH said:


> Thank you for doing this!! I don't doubt at all the the 19's are lambskin/ goatskin/ etc, I just doubt that some or most of them are 100% lambskin or goatskin...bonded leather can have the exact same patterning as leather but it's "mixed" with other things. Also, what layer of the leather are they using? Full grain? Top grain? Bottom? "Leather"? (which means lower layers).
> 
> So I am not even saying that's bad. Sometimes, clearly from my "experiments", that can make those bags insanely durable. BUT, I just think we have the right to know WHAT it IS? And also, if they ARE using bonded leather, which we know they are for some things, that's extremely inexpensive, so also, we have the right to know b/c these are big $$ decisions.
> 
> Remember too that part of the bonded leather process is to stamp that material to look EXACTLY LIKE the leather it's attempting to mimic. It can be nearly impossible to tell the difference. But, all leather has pores, and absorbs ...which makes these questionable as they are waterproof. SO, it's not always good/ bad /right/ wrong, it's why aren't they telling us so we can at least make informed decisions?


Chanel should disclose it. They are relying on decades of goodwill.  But when their products don’t bear out the quality they purport then their clients start to question whether that goodwill is still merited.


----------



## EpiFanatic

And just for fun here it is compared to my lambskin mini.  19 on top, jacket in the middle, mini on the bottom. Lighting makes a big difference.




And a perspective pic. Clearly these pieces are less “coated” than the 19.  My jacket has a much more matte look, a slight sheen at certain angles but it definitely absorbs more light than either of the CHanel bags.


----------



## TraceySH

EpiFanatic said:


> Chanel should disclose it. They are relying on decades of goodwill.  But when their products don’t bear out the quality they purport then their clients start to question whether that goodwill is still merited.


And then feel gaslit because you wonder if you’re going crazy.  But, the 19 totes I posted here were egregiously defective. Peeling, weird texture, some strange white stuff behind the “leather” that looks like rubber. All these people with their 22 bag issues. So something’s up. And without Chanel addressing it or providing some transparency, it’s like land mines out there in terms of confidence w/ purchasing.


----------



## TraceySH

EpiFanatic said:


> And just for fun here it is compared to my lambskin mini.  19 on top, jacket in the middle, mini on the bottom. Lighting makes a big difference.
> 
> View attachment 5578680


I have a ton of 19s it would be fun to do this on them.


----------



## Yhte123

zaraha said:


> Chanel is not so shy to disclose what type of RTW material used and what % used: such as 100% cashmere, 100% lambskin, 90% Cotton ect.  Wish they did this for leather bags too.


They only do it because it’s legally required I believe.  If it wasn’t legally regulated, they (along with many other luxury brands) would be just as ambiguous.





TraceySH said:


> ITA. I was thinking about that yesterday too. At least the fabric bags we know what we are getting. And other brands are doing this plasticky vague "leather" stuff too, not just Chanel. It's interesting though because like, Balenciaga says "100% lamb leather". And BV has the same. Chloe also. Lots of 100%'s published out there in descriptions which makes me think they are doing this to differentiate from the non-100% ones?


from an SA about the Bal bags. When Balenciaga say things like 100% lambskin they don’t mean they’re using 100% lambskin instead of some Frankenstein bonded leather. They mean the bag‘s composition (excl hardware) is 100% lambskin. But it’s like why a brand says a shirt is ‘100% cotton’ even though the threads used to sew the shirt together is polyester and the buttons are resin.

YSL is much better about this by saying the bag comprises 80% leather and 20% brass hardware.


----------



## thundercloud

TraceySH said:


> I am dying to get inside that thing! But I also really like the dark grey one. I clearly woke up in a sassy mood, maybe the next one will involve a lil surgery lol


Thank you, @TraceySH for putting your 19 through the wringer for us & starting the conversation. This thread has been an eye-opener for me, in terms of my assumptions and expectations about designer leather goods. I definitely need to be a more savvy consumer going forward. 

It's also good to know that my dark grey lambskin 19 is as durable as I've experienced it to be, even though I have never (& never will) put it through the gauntlet you did. LOL.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Wellllllll for everyone here. I called Chanel's 800 customer service line and asked if they had some documentation they could provide that stated their bags are 100% leather, including the 19 and the 22. The person I spoke with said they don't and they cannot provide any more specifics about the materials used other than what is listed on the site.
> 
> So. Everyone can take that one of 2 ways. I know how I take it, but some will insist on defending the lack of transparency. SO, "straight from the horse's mouth", so to speak. You guys decide.


I don’t understand why you keep deciding to take digs by saying “some will insist on defending the lack of transparency.” There’s not a single person on this thread who hasn’t voiced quality concerns with Chanel. No one is blind to it. 

It’s obvious you’re referring to me with your jab. I made it clear I didn’t want to continue dialogue with you, and felt I addressed my previous post in a diplomatic fashion. I shared information on acrylic being used on lambskin to possibly give others an idea of what the coating on the 19 bag could be. 

Just because some of us have Chanel bags that are well made in our collection doesn’t mean we don’t understand that there are and have been quality issues. I hope at some point Chanel addresses all of them. But I am still a fan and a client and if I have issues I would go about addressing it in a much more constructive manner without openly bashing a brand. 

You talk about wanting transparency from a fashion house like Chanel and you’re not going to get it, especially not in the manner you’re going about. You basically want a breakdown of “ingredients” and it’s not going to happen. The EU has strict rules in place with fashion houses (they’re one of the largest exports) so if they were doing something illegal, like saying a leather bag is made of leather when it’s made of something else, I’d imagine they’d face serious consequences. 

Chanel is one of the number one, if not THE number one, replicated brand and you think they’re going to break down the exact science of their bag process so the Chinese can start making even better fakes? I’m not defending this lack of transparency you keep referring to, I just understand how luxury fashion houses work. I interned for one of the biggest fashion magazines, have a fashion background, worked in luxury and around some of the biggest luxury brands. I know how they operate more often than not. I’ve gone into purchasing luxury goods with this frame of mind. Not saying things can’t or shouldn’t change, but you also have to understand how long many of these brands have been operating for. They have heritage and deep history and aren’t necessarily just going to flip a switch to how they’ve operated. 

Chanel has always been very private and tight lipped, nothing has changed. I accept that. I’ve been following fashion and Chanel since before I was a teenager and they had the same mysterious stance then and they’re highly unlikely to change now. 

Maybe one day I’ll stop purchasing items because I can’t justify the prices, or my experience has made me unhappy, or for whatever reason, but I’m happy with my collection. If you’re not happy with them, stop purchasing. If you want to prove a point, stop purchasing. If you don’t think they’re luxury, etc, then stop purchasing. If you don’t believe in the authenticity of the material you’re buying, stop purchasing. That’s a much more powerful statement. 

If you absolutely, unequivocally want answers, then hire multiple luxury leather artisans who’ve worked with luxury brands to give you an independent analysis of the bags in question.

An example to something similar to this “lack of transparency” is LV clients complaining that the newer canvas is cheap and cracking and nothing close to being durable and withstanding like their vintage canvas. Well, the vintage canvas had to be reformulated because the compounds they were using had toxic ingredients and they had to halt production. Those compounds are the reason vintage LV canvas is so much harder than current canvas. Unbeknownst to most clients vintage canvas actually had more issues with cracking because of the harder materials. But do you think LV is issuing this statement in every bag they’re selling? No. Of course not. And they never will. That’s not luxury and luxury is what they’re selling.  

There have been people on here that echoed your sentiments in a powerful and insightful way, like the high tier client from Palm Beach. Someone like her gains my attention.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> I don’t understand why you keep deciding to take digs by saying “some will insist on defending the lack of transparency.” There’s not a single person on this thread who hasn’t voiced quality concerns with Chanel. No one is blind to it.
> 
> It’s obvious you’re referring to me with your jab. I made it clear I didn’t want to continue dialogue with you, and felt I addressed my previous post in a diplomatic fashion. I shared information on acrylic being used on lambskin to possibly give others an idea of what the coating on the 19 bag could be.
> 
> Just because some of us have Chanel bags that are well made in our collection doesn’t mean we don’t understand that there are and have been quality issues. I hope at some point Chanel addresses all of them. But I am still a fan and a client and if I have issues I would go about addressing it in a much more constructive manner without openly bashing a brand.
> 
> You talk about wanting transparency from a fashion house like Chanel and you’re not going to get it, especially not in the manner you’re going about. You basically want a breakdown of “ingredients” and it’s not going to happen. The EU has strict rules in place with fashion houses (they’re one of the largest exports) so if they were doing something illegal, like saying a leather bag is made of leather when it’s made of something else, I’d imagine they’d face serious consequences.
> 
> Chanel is one of the number one, if not THE number one, replicated brand and you think they’re going to break down the exact science of their bag process so the Chinese can start making even better fakes? I’m not defending this lack of transparency you keep referring to, I just understand how luxury fashion houses work. I interned for one of the biggest fashion magazines, have a fashion background, worked in luxury and around some of the biggest luxury brands. I know how they operate more often than not. I’ve gone into purchasing luxury goods with this frame of mind. Not saying things can’t or shouldn’t change, but you also have to understand how long many of these brands have been operating for. They have heritage and deep history and aren’t necessarily just going to flip a switch to how they’ve operated.
> 
> Chanel has always been very private and tight lipped, nothing has changed. I accept that. I’ve been following fashion and Chanel since before I was a teenager and they had the same mysterious stance then and they’re highly unlikely to change now.
> 
> Maybe one day I’ll stop purchasing items because I can’t justify the prices, or my experience has made me unhappy, or for whatever reason, but I’m happy with my collection. If you’re not happy with them, stop purchasing. If you want to prove a point, stop purchasing. If you don’t think they’re luxury, etc, then stop purchasing. If you don’t believe in the authenticity of the material you’re buying, stop purchasing. That’s a much more powerful statement.
> 
> If you absolutely, unequivocally want answers, then hire multiple luxury leather artisans who’ve worked with luxury brands to give you an independent analysis of the bags in question.
> 
> An example to something similar to this “lack of transparency” is LV clients complaining that the newer canvas is cheap and cracking and nothing close to being durable and withstanding like their vintage canvas. Well, the vintage canvas had to be reformulated because the compounds they were using had toxic ingredients and they had to halt production. Those compounds are the reason vintage LV canvas is so much harder than current canvas. Unbeknownst to most clients vintage canvas actually had more issues with cracking because of the harder materials. But do you think LV is issuing this statement in every bag they’re selling? No. Of course not. And they never will. That’s not luxury and luxury is what they’re selling.
> 
> There have been people on here that echoed your sentiments in a powerful and insightful way, like the high tier client from Palm Beach. Someone like her gains my attention.


Please just stop. I was not referring to you. My goodness. You are off topic here. Please return to the topic at hand or start your own thread. Thank you.


----------



## TraceySH

thundercloud said:


> Thank you, @TraceySH for putting your 19 through the wringer for us & starting the conversation. This thread has been an eye-opener for me, in terms of my assumptions and expectations about designer leather goods. I definitely need to be a more savvy consumer going forward.
> 
> It's also good to know that my dark grey lambskin 19 is as durable as I've experienced it to be, even though I have never (& never will) put it through the gauntlet you did. LOL.


I mean, that's the W here is the 19 (other than the totes of course) are gonna hold up!


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> I have the original 19 in Goatskin also. It does smell like leather. I'm really commenting on the 22 bag and now the new 19 tote that OP posted. I don't understand why the 19 Tote would be made differently than the 19 bag tho-does that make sense? Something changed. These are newer quality issues and they aren't good.


Yes, I understand what you’re saying. I didn’t realize the tote was in the 19 collection until after I first commented. *face palm* 

Some of the bags look similar with the chains so I though the tote was made in regular lamb (which I thought was illogical in that size and shape given the nature of lambskin), not the durable, treated 19 lamb. 

It’s ironic that lamb is commonly used by fashion houses for its soft, buttery feel but the very thin skin (generally speaking) contradicts practicality for me. I’ve stayed away from lamb with the exception of a few things, but now I’ll buy lamb treated like the 19 bags. Lol. 

So yeah, admittedly there’s something wrong with her bag. It seems like a lot of bad batches. Chanel has had its share of crooked bags, but in this case something very unusual went down in their factories. These are issues none of us have seen.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Please just stop. I was not referring to you. My goodness. You are off topic here. Please return to the topic at hand or start your own thread. Thank you.


Right. 

Actually it’s very much on topic.


----------



## gail13

We all know fashion houses can say things that are less than honest. Made in Italy here means grommets and chains added in Italy...who knows where most of the item was made?  And leather means if it has 1% of leather and 99% plastic, it can be labeled leather. I believe thats the point?  I think OP is saying we all need to open our eyes to what luxury is feeding us and we all need to ask for transparency. Rules are different depending upon where you manufacture. 

Until recently, I believed what the tag said or what I saw on the website, but no more. I have to ask myself how I feel buying from brands that say made in Italy but they are made in factories basically brought over from China.  

Everyone is obviously free to purchase as they see fit but why would you want to pay $5500 for a bag that is mostly plastic that you were led to believe is leather? I thought that was what TPF was all about, helping people understand brands, lines and all the quality and other issues in between. This has been a eye opening thread and I do appreciate the posts about the close ups of the leather etc.


----------



## gail13

bagsaremyjam said:


> Yes, I understand what you’re saying. I didn’t realize the tote was in the 19 collection until after I first commented. *face palm*
> 
> Some of the bags look similar with the chains so I though the tote was made in regular lamb (which I thought was illogical in that size and shape given the nature of lambskin), not the durable, treated 19 lamb.
> 
> It’s ironic that lamb is commonly used by fashion houses for its soft, buttery feel but the very thin skin (generally speaking) contradicts practicality for me. I’ve stayed away from lamb with the exception of a few things, but now I’ll buy lamb treated like the 19 bags. Lol.
> 
> So yeah, admittedly there’s something wrong with her bag. It seems like a lot of bad batches. Chanel has had its share of crooked bags, but in this case something very unusual went down in their factories. These are issues none of us have seen.


If you get a chance check out the vintage lamb bags or maybe you have a few?  I have a couple and they hold up so well and scratches can be buffed out for the most part. And they can be refinished.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> If you get a chance check out the vintage lamb bags or maybe you have a few?  I have a couple and they hold up so well and scratches can be buffed out for the most part. And they can be refinished.


I’m so particular I like vintage bags in mint condition (and always the most popular ones - Diana bag, beige and caramel caviar flaps) and the prices for those are always hair raising, lol. The ones I’ve recently wanted cost more than a medium classic flap WITH tax!! No thanks, lol. But the pristine vintage bags are so stunning.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> We all know fashion houses can say things that are less than honest. Made in Italy here means grommets and chains added in Italy...who knows where most of the item was made?  And leather means if it has 1% of leather and 99% plastic, it can be labeled leather. I believe thats the point?  I think OP is saying we all need to open our eyes to what luxury is feeding us and we all need to ask for transparency. Rules are different depending upon where you manufacture.
> 
> Until recently, I believed what the tag said or what I saw on the website, but no more. I have to ask myself how I feel buying from brands that say made in Italy but they are made in factories basically brought over from China.
> 
> Everyone is obviously free to purchase as they see fit but why would you want to pay $5500 for a bag that is mostly plastic that you were led to believe is leather? I thought that was what TPF was all about, helping people understand brands, lines and all the quality and other issues in between. This has been a eye opening thread and I do appreciate the posts about the close ups of the leather etc.


Europe has really strict standards and regulations with regards to disclosing material truthfully, or ingredients for that matter. It’s heavily overseen. European standards are very high with quality of product - whether it’s luxury goods, cosmetics, food, etc. So many things that are allowed in the US are not allowed in Europe. 

I see your point in questioning what is legally allowed to be labeled what. But since all luxury products come from Europe I’m certain it’s illegal to call something leather if it’s 1% leather and 99% plastic. I’m sure that’s even the case in the US and our government could care less about what’s in most of the things we consume or use.


----------



## Yhte123

Let’s not get carried away here. The European Union says bonded leather is legally defined as



> a material with a minimum dry skin fibre content of 50 % by weight, in which the tanned skin is mechanically and/or chemically disintegrated into fibrous particles, small pieces or powders and then, possibly in combination with a chemical binder, transformed into sheets.


Also


> ‘leather’ and ‘hide’: the general term for designating the hide or skin of an animal with its original fibrous structure more or less intact and tanned so as to prevent rotting. The hair or wool may or may not have been removed. Leather may also be obtained from hide or skin removed in layers or segments, before or after tanning. If, however, the hide or skin is mechanically disintegrated and/or chemically reduced into fibrous particles, pieces or powders and then, with or without the addition of a binding agent, transformed into sheets or other forms, those sheets or forms may not be called ‘leather’ and, where they fall under the definition referred to in (d), they shall be called ‘bonded leather’. If the leather has a layer of coating, irrespective of how it has been applied, or a bonded layer, such layers must not exceed a thickness of 0.15 mm. If the material retains the original grain which occurs when the epidermis has been removed and without any surface film having been removed by buffing, fleshing or splitting, the term ‘full grain leather’ may be used;
> 
> 
> ‘coated leather’ and ‘coated hide’: a leather or hide product in which the layer of coating or bonding does not exceed one third of the total thickness of the product, but is greater than 0.15 mm;



And Also


> Notwithstanding cases in which a criminal offence has been committed, any manufacturer or importer which places on the market materials which use the terms referred to in paragraph 2, as well as any items manufactured with them, either as adjectives or nouns, including where they are inserted as prefixes or suffixes in other words, or under the generic names of ‘leather goods’, ‘leather’, ‘hide’ or ‘fur’, i.e. derivatives, which do not conform to the definition referred to in paragraph 2 declared on the label, mark or, where permitted, accompanying commercial document, shall be subject, in accordance with paragraph 6 of this article, to a fine of between EUR 3 000 and EUR 20 000.


----------



## TraceySH

Yhte123 said:


> Let’s not get carried away here. The European Union says bonded leather is legally defined as
> 
> 
> Also
> 
> 
> And Also


EU isn't strict at all about labeling leather or leather constitutions. I was curious a few days ago & looked it up, it was pretty easy to find but I didn't think to put it back on here.  Thank you so much for posting!

The "made in" is the biggest issue here too. 99% of something can be made in china, final assembly in Italy, and can then be labeled "Made in Italy". Not cool. Thank you Tom Ford for that one.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

Yhte123 said:


> Let’s not get carried away here. The European Union says bonded leather is legally defined as
> 
> 
> Also
> 
> 
> And Also


Well 50% is not 1%, so that’s the point I was making with the extreme example above. With a company like Chanel, with the amount of products they produce, and if they’re found criminally liable, I would imagine their fine would be astronomical.  

I don’t know how corrupt the world of fashion is in Europe, but a large part of their economy is from the export of luxury goods. I imagine places like France have a tight grip on these companies, but anything is possible. I do know that France recently greatly increased the tax on luxury goods, and instead of fashion houses paying those taxes they offset the cost to consumers.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> Well 50% is not 1%, so that’s the point I was making with the extreme example above. With a company like Chanel, with the amount of products they produce, and if they’re found criminally liable, I would imagine their fine would be astronomical.
> 
> I don’t know how corrupt the world of fashion is in Europe, but a large part of their economy is from the export of luxury goods. I imagine places like France have a tight grip on these companies, but anything is possible. I do know that France recently greatly increased the tax on luxury goods, and instead of fashion houses paying those taxes they offset the cost to consumers.


Chanel isn't a French company anymore tho, so that wouldn't affect them.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Chanel isn't a French company anymore tho, so that wouldn't affect them.


It’s now technically based in the UK, but I’d be surprised if they could deviate taxes since their home base for a majority of their company is still in France.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> It’s now technically based in the UK, but I’d be surprised if they could deviate taxes since their home base for a majority of their company is still in France.


They moved BECAUSE of taxes & strict French manufacturing policies. Majority of their factories are in Italy, a few left in France. Wertheimer's live in NY. They are no longer based in France.


----------



## JamaisAssez

TraceySH said:


> Thank you Tom Ford for that one.


Oooh. Care to elaborate Tracey?


----------



## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> Oooh. Care to elaborate Tracey?


From what I understand, it was what he considered to be one of his biggest achievements to get that law passed after having been the head of Gucci...


----------



## OCMomof3

TraceySH said:


> From what I understand, it was what he considered to be one of his biggest achievements to get that law passed after having been the head of Gucci...


Geez Tom.


----------



## TraceySH

OCMomof3 said:


> Geez Tom.


I know. His company is up for sale now so…


----------



## JamaisAssez

TraceySH said:


> I know. His company is up for sale now so…


Okay sooo this description is just marketing (scam) then... ?


----------



## 880

JamaisAssez said:


> Okay sooo this description is just marketing (scam) then... ?
> 
> View attachment 5579299


yep, I had a long discussion with a person more knowledgeable by far re fashion production, made in Italy. Total scam. And I still own  some old Tom Ford Gucci and YSL RTW that I purchased back in the day. I was a fan. it’s kind of like you have to be careful about the purchase of olive oil, bc labels can legally hide key information.

as far as I know, of the relatively well known premier brand fashion names, brunello is the one that is really made in his Italian factory. where incidentally his workers (including tailors trained by his school in Solemeo) all have a subsidized 3 euro 1.5 hour daily lunch of three courses plus wine. (I partook of this).

@tulipfield, I think you asked whether you would be better off going vintage or chanel RTW; perhaps repost in the chanel RTW thread in chanel clubhouse subforum to get replies. I personally still buy current RTW, but I have changed by diet exercise and lifestyle, in part, to be able to wear my own vintage decades old RTW. A two piece pantsuit I bought in 2001 spring is still classic and wearable today.

@bagsaremyjam, I learned from the points you made, and I actually agreed with your assessment of chanel. i think we may be in the minority on TPF. IMO, if one is unhappy with Chanel’s opaque practices, one can simply not purchase. For my part, I’m less bothered by chanel’s lack of transparency than by the chanel customers who demand complete symmetry from a soft sided bag. ( I am not joking that a Tory Burch tote may better satisfy some of the disgruntled chanel customers).

I do learn a great deal from threads of many TPFers including @TraceySH, and I very carefully and suspiciously handled a 19 tote last week. I count myself exceedingly fortunate that my recent purchases compare satisfactorily to my past purchases, mainly bc I can examine in person.  I’m actually much more bothered by the fact that Hermes, though it operates and owns the best tannery, makes it so difficult, next to impossible, for independent leather artisans to buy the best hides wholesale.


----------



## JamaisAssez

gail13 said:


> I have to ask myself how I feel buying from brands that say made in *Italy* but they are made in factories basically brought over from *China*.





TraceySH said:


> The "made in" is the biggest issue here too. 99% of something can be made in *china*, final assembly in *Italy*, and can then be labeled "Made in Italy". Not cool. Thank you Tom Ford for that one.





880 said:


> as far as I know, of the relatively well known premier brand fashion names, brunello is the one that is really made in his *Italian* factory.


Personally I'm less concerned with the country of manufacture and care more about quality and craftsmanship, so as long as a bag/item is well made using quality materials I'll be a happy customer.

Generally speaking, clients in Asian countries fetishize (go nuts over) the Made-In-Italy and Made-In-France designation, associating this label with quality and craftsmanship, but as we've seen here it can clearly be a marketing ploy.

I dropped by my local boutique today, armed with the knowledge of this thread and took a closer look of the 19 + 22 bags. It just feels like plastic and not leather. BUT the metallic beige lambskin trench coat did feel and smell like leather.

My Hermès briefcases also smell heavenly after a decade of use. I own three in Epsom, Togo and Vache liégée respectively.


----------



## tulipfield

880 said:


> @tulipfield, I think you asked whether you would be better off going vintage or chanel RTW; perhaps repost in the chanel RTW thread in chanel clubhouse subforum to get replies. I personally still buy current RTW, but I have changed by diet exercise and lifestyle, in part, to be able to wear my own vintage decades old RTW.


Thank you for the tip!  One thing I like about the vintage items is they tend to be made of all natural fibers rather than blended with polyamide, so I might go vintage just with that in mind. 

On another note, a lot of folks here have mentioned that their items “smell like leather”… not saying Chanel does this, but there are sprays you can use to impart a leather smell to items.  So I wouldn’t necessarily trust that something’s leather just based on smell. =\


----------



## 880

tulipfield said:


> vintage items is they tend to be made of all natural fibers rather than blended with polyamide, so I might go vintage just with that in mind.


I love vintage mid century deadstock RTW. Yes re all natural fibers. But, they are heavy as F— lol. A Norman Norell coat feels like 25 pounds. Your comment about leather smell Makes me think chanel should put a scratch and sniff card in its bags.  

apologies for OT


----------



## bagsaremyjam

880 said:


> yep, I had a long discussion with a person more knowledgeable by far re fashion production, made in Italy. Total scam. And I still own  some old Tom Ford Gucci and YSL RTW that I purchased back in the day. I was a fan. it’s kind of like you have to be careful about the purchase of olive oil, bc labels can legally hide key information.
> 
> as far as I know, of the relatively well known premier brand fashion names, brunello is the one that is really made in his Italian factory. where incidentally his workers (including tailors trained by his school in Solemeo) all have a 3 euro 1.5 hour daily lunch of three courses plus wine. (I partook of this).
> 
> @tulipfield, I think you asked whether you would be better off going vintage or chanel RTW; perhaps repost in the chanel RTW thread in chanel clubhouse subforum to get replies. I personally still buy current RTW, but I have changed by diet exercise and lifestyle, in part, to be able to wear my own vintage decades old RTW. A two piece pantsuit I bought in 2001 spring is still classic and wearable today.
> 
> @bagsaremyjam, I learned from the points you made, and I actually agreed with your assessment of chanel. i think we may be in the minority on TPF. IMO, if one is unhappy with Chanel’s opaque practices, one can simply not purchase. For my part, I’m less bothered by chanel’s lack of transparency than by the chanel customers who demand complete symmetry from a soft sided bag. ( I am not joking that a Tory Burch tote may better satisfy some of the disgruntled chanel customers).
> 
> I do learn a great deal from threads of many TPFers including @TraceySH, and I very carefully and suspiciously handled a 19 tote last week. I count myself exceedingly fortunate that my recent purchases compare satisfactorily to my past purchases, mainly bc I can examine in person.  I’m actually much more bothered by the fact that Hermes, though it operates and owns the best tannery, makes it so difficult, next to impossible, for independent leather artisans to buy the best hides wholesale.


I couldn’t agree with you more! Seriously. We are definitely in the minority here. A TPF member dm’d me and pointed out that there will always be flaws with any major designer fashion brand where human hands are involved. She’s right, and it’d be silly to expect utter perfection.

I’ve seen plenty of Hermes bags with imperfect, slightly crooked,
or not perfectly filled stamping and certainly not “perfect” stitching. Same with Chanel. I’m extremely particular but also understand the way these bags are made, so I will never expect perfectly straight symmetrical lines in every single crevice of a bag. Overall symmetry, yes, but I’m talking about corners, etc.

I hear you about disgruntled Chanel customers. I’ve seen threads where people are complaining about how cheap the soft bags look because they’re not structured. Chanel bags aren’t all meant to be structured to look like a classic flap. Soft leather, wrinkling leather, unpuffy quilts, etc, doesn’t equate to inexpensive materials or quality. It’s a completely different look and vibe and a choice they make to differentiate seasonal bags from the classics. Sometimes it seems many aren’t familiar with how these bags are made or aren’t educated with the type of leather they’re buying, and can have unrealistic expectations.


----------



## 880

gail13 said:


> We all know fashion houses can say things that are less than honest. Made in Italy here means grommets and chains added in Italy...who knows where most of the item was made?  And leather means if it has 1% of leather and 99% plastic, it can be labeled leather. I believe thats the point?  I think OP is saying we all need to open our eyes to what luxury is feeding us and we all need to ask for transparency. Rules are different depending upon where you manufacture.
> 
> Until recently, I believed what the tag said or what I saw on the website, but no more. I have to ask myself how I feel buying from brands that say made in Italy but they are made in factories basically brought over from China.
> 
> Everyone is obviously free to purchase as they see fit but why would you want to pay $5500 for a bag that is mostly plastic that you were led to believe is leather? I thought that was what TPF was all about, helping people understand brands, lines and all the quality and other issues in between. This has been a eye opening thread and I do appreciate the posts about the close ups of the leather etc.


+1000; there are tons of articles about this, like this one https://www.marketplace.org/2014/09/24/made-italy-may-not-mean-what-you-think-it-does/

The answer to why buy a 19 tote, bonded leather, machine made with some hand assembly ? because chanel markets it as desirable. TPF is a forum that is extremely brand focused. Big Brands mean fantasy, marketing, runway shows. Well, it’s wrapped in fancy natural cardboard box with ribbons and camellias.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

880 said:


> yep, I had a long discussion with a person more knowledgeable by far re fashion production, made in Italy. Total scam. And I still own  some old Tom Ford Gucci and YSL RTW that I purchased back in the day. I was a fan. it’s kind of like you have to be careful about the purchase of olive oil, bc labels can legally hide key information.
> 
> as far as I know, of the relatively well known premier brand fashion names, brunello is the one that is really made in his Italian factory. where incidentally his workers (including tailors trained by his school in Solemeo) all have a 3 euro 1.5 hour daily lunch of three courses plus wine. (I partook of this).
> 
> @tulipfield, I think you asked whether you would be better off going vintage or chanel RTW; perhaps repost in the chanel RTW thread in chanel clubhouse subforum to get replies. I personally still buy current RTW, but I have changed by diet exercise and lifestyle, in part, to be able to wear my own vintage decades old RTW. A two piece pantsuit I bought in 2001 spring is still classic and wearable today.
> 
> @bagsaremyjam, I learned from the points you made, and I actually agreed with your assessment of chanel. i think we may be in the minority on TPF. IMO, if one is unhappy with Chanel’s opaque practices, one can simply not purchase. For my part, I’m less bothered by chanel’s lack of transparency than by the chanel customers who demand complete symmetry from a soft sided bag. ( I am not joking that a Tory Burch tote may better satisfy some of the disgruntled chanel customers).
> 
> I do learn a great deal from threads of many TPFers including @TraceySH, and I very carefully and suspiciously handled a 19 tote last week. I count myself exceedingly fortunate that my recent purchases compare satisfactorily to my past purchases, mainly bc I can examine in person.  I’m actually much more bothered by the fact that Hermes, though it operates and owns the best tannery, makes it so difficult, next to impossible, for independent leather artisans to buy the best hides wholesale.


I couldn’t agree with you more! We are definitely in the minority here. Another TPF member dm’d me and pointed out that there will always be flaws with any major designer fashion brand, because human hands are involved in making the items. She has a valid point, and it’d be silly to not expect mistakes or to expect utter perfection. 

I’ve seen plenty of Hermes bags with imperfect, slightly crooked or imperfect stamping or not fully and certainly not “perfect” stitching. Same with Chanel. I’m extremely particular but also understand the way these bags are made, so I will never expect perfectly straight symmetrical lines in every single crevice of a bag. Overall symmetry, yes, but I’m talking about corners, etc. 

I hear you about disgruntled Chanel customers. I’ve seen threads where people are complaining about how cheap the soft bags look because they’re not structured. Many don’t realize Chanel bags aren’t all meant to be structured to look like a classic flap. Soft leather, wrinkling leather, un-puffy quilts, etc, doesn’t equate to inexpensive materials or quality. It’s a completely different look and vibe and a choice they make to differentiate seasonal bags from the classics.


----------



## cerulean blue

JamaisAssez said:


> Okay sooo this description is just marketing (scam) then... ?
> 
> View attachment 5579299


these days, there are more convoluted and shady things happening beyond manufacturing the majority in China and bring to Italy for finishing.

There are cases where the item is definitely 100% assembled in Italy, but in places like Prato. The factories there often comprise undocumented Chinese immigrants, where the stuff is often done off the books, and the work conditions and pay is awful — sweatshops basically.


----------



## 880

cerulean blue said:


> these days, there are more convoluted and shady things happening beyond manufacturing the majority in China and bring to Italy for finishing.
> 
> There are cases where the item is definitely 100% assembled in Italy, but in places like Prato. The factories there often comprise undocumented Chinese immigrants, where the stuff is often done off the books, and the work conditions and pay is awful — sweatshops basically.


+1000





						China finds new way to invade
					

In the Tuscan city of Prato, Italy, there are nearly 5,000 workshops run by Chinese entrepreneurs turning out cheap clothing for the fast-fashion companies of Italy and Europe.



					www.riverdalepress.com


----------



## TraceySH

880 said:


> yep, I had a long discussion with a person more knowledgeable by far re fashion production, made in Italy. Total scam. And I still own  some old Tom Ford Gucci and YSL RTW that I purchased back in the day. I was a fan. it’s kind of like you have to be careful about the purchase of olive oil, bc labels can legally hide key information.
> 
> as far as I know, of the relatively well known premier brand fashion names, brunello is the one that is really made in his Italian factory. where incidentally his workers (including tailors trained by his school in Solemeo) all have a subsidized 3 euro 1.5 hour daily lunch of three courses plus wine. (I partook of this).
> 
> @tulipfield, I think you asked whether you would be better off going vintage or chanel RTW; perhaps repost in the chanel RTW thread in chanel clubhouse subforum to get replies. I personally still buy current RTW, but I have changed by diet exercise and lifestyle, in part, to be able to wear my own vintage decades old RTW. A two piece pantsuit I bought in 2001 spring is still classic and wearable today.
> 
> @bagsaremyjam, I learned from the points you made, and I actually agreed with your assessment of chanel. i think we may be in the minority on TPF. IMO, if one is unhappy with Chanel’s opaque practices, one can simply not purchase. For my part, I’m less bothered by chanel’s lack of transparency than by the chanel customers who demand complete symmetry from a soft sided bag. ( I am not joking that a Tory Burch tote may better satisfy some of the disgruntled chanel customers).
> 
> I do learn a great deal from threads of many TPFers including @TraceySH, and I very carefully and suspiciously handled a 19 tote last week. I count myself exceedingly fortunate that my recent purchases compare satisfactorily to my past purchases, mainly bc I can examine in person.  I’m actually much more bothered by the fact that Hermes, though it operates and owns the best tannery, makes it so difficult, next to impossible, for independent leather artisans to buy the best hides wholesale.


The leathers from Fleuron have been beautiful (same tannery as Hermes...) they are pretty new. OT but a nice little plug there for the little guy.


----------



## TPFer2015

What an eye-opening thread, thank you v much to all with both sides of the discussion for my education! If anything, I am pretty pleased that my only Chanel is a small caramel lambskin C19. I have been babying her like anything but can now rest easy knowing that she is next to indestructible!


----------



## gail13

Many good points made here. And I did know the answer to my question about why would you want to buy a $5k bag thats not leather....I know its all due to marketing. The power of the CC  attributes to 90% of the value of that item in people's eyes. I never did think Chanel was for the client that wanted everything perfect. Luxury however should be at least able to give you better quality, service, something....

When Im talking about items being finished in Chinese factories in Italy, yes, Im talking about Prato. Chanel is not alone, many of the designers are manufacturing there.  And the conditions are reportedly not good.

I think the point of this thread from the beginning was there are recent bags that appear to not be leather, that are called calfskin/lambskin on the website and they have issues. OP was trying to bring awareness and clarity. Certainly people are still buying them, I guess we will see what happens.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

Just want to share this from my SA:

Chanel doesn’t even disclose all the specifics to us lol…the 19 tote is a known issue, and I wouldn’t really recommend that tote to anyone lol…

Also:

In regards to lambskin, Chanel treats it as little as possible to preserve the natural suppleness and soft texture. That being said, I have noticed that sometimes the lambskin seems to feel more durable some seasons than it does in others. I don’t know why that woman is even putting acetone and rubbing clorox wipes on her bag, which will most likely cause damage later on for her bag lol.

I asked her if she knew what the coating is on the classic 19 bag as there’s debate on this thread and referenced the tests being done on it. Also brought up the 19 tote.


----------



## ntntgo

bagsaremyjam said:


> I couldn’t agree with you more! We are definitely in the minority here. Another TPF member dm’d me and pointed out that there will always be flaws with any major designer fashion brand, because human hands are involved in making the items. She has a valid point, and it’d be silly to not expect mistakes or to expect utter perfection.
> 
> I’ve seen plenty of Hermes bags with imperfect, slightly crooked or imperfect stamping or not fully and certainly not “perfect” stitching. Same with Chanel. I’m extremely particular but also understand the way these bags are made, so I will never expect perfectly straight symmetrical lines in every single crevice of a bag. Overall symmetry, yes, but I’m talking about corners, etc.
> 
> I hear you about disgruntled Chanel customers. I’ve seen threads where people are complaining about how cheap the soft bags look because they’re not structured. Many don’t realize Chanel bags aren’t all meant to be structured to look like a classic flap. Soft leather, wrinkling leather, un-puffy quilts, etc, doesn’t equate to inexpensive materials or quality. It’s a completely different look and vibe and a choice they make to differentiate seasonal bags from the classics.


Again, I rarely have time to come to TPF anymore but I caught up and felt that I needed to chime in on this one.
There is very little human interaction with the leather goods anymore. Everything is machine made other than most of the Metiers that is still hand assembled in France. Notice that I said most. 
Also, Chanel closed their Prato operation in the 2010s when the Italian labour union raided the factories for unsafe work environment. They still use a small group there for some hardware assembly. To be clear, this is not just Chanel. This is most of the self proclaimed “luxury” brands.
Chanel now has a large, unmarked factory in Pulia and the locals have now removed from office the officials who approved this move as they were sold on it being brought to Pulia to employ Italians. That didn’t happen. Don’t bother Googling this because you won’t find it or maybe someone who is more savvy than I can. I know this because my family’s business is there. So I do know this first hand.
Lastly, and this is not directed at any one person, please educate yourselves on the distinct difference between “Made In…” and “100% Made In…”. Insert whatever country you want.
There is a huge difference.


----------



## 880

ntntgo said:


> Again, I rarely have time to come to TPF anymore but I caught up and felt that I needed to chime in on this one.
> There is very little human interaction with the leather goods anymore. Everything is machine made other than most of the Metiers that is still hand assembled in France. Notice that I said most.
> Also, Chanel closed their Prato operation in the 2010s when the Italian labour union raided the factories for unsafe work environment. They still use a small group there for some hardware assembly. To be clear, this is not just Chanel. This is most of the self proclaimed “luxury” brands.
> Chanel now has a large, unmarked factory in Pulia and the locals have now removed from office the officials who approved this move as they were sold on it being brought to Pulia to employ Italians. That didn’t happen. Don’t bother Googling this because you won’t find it or maybe someone who is more savvy than I can. I know this because my family’s business is there. So I do know this first hand.
> Lastly, and this is not directed at any one person, please educate yourselves on the distinct difference between “Made In…” and “100% Made In…”. Insert whatever country you want.
> There is a huge difference.


Agree. So glad to see you posting.  There are many articles on the issues with pulia, and elsewhere, not only with camps within Italy, but goods transported from Schengen zone countries or Albania and given a mere finish. (Of course I only know this from what I read so would welcome correction lol)


----------



## bagsaremyjam

ntntgo said:


> Again, I rarely have time to come to TPF anymore but I caught up and felt that I needed to chime in on this one.
> There is very little human interaction with the leather goods anymore. Everything is machine made other than most of the Metiers that is still hand assembled in France. Notice that I said most.
> Also, Chanel closed their Prato operation in the 2010s when the Italian labour union raided the factories for unsafe work environment. They still use a small group there for some hardware assembly. To be clear, this is not just Chanel. This is most of the self proclaimed “luxury” brands.
> Chanel now has a large, unmarked factory in Pulia and the locals have now removed from office the officials who approved this move as they were sold on it being brought to Pulia to employ Italians. That didn’t happen. Don’t bother Googling this because you won’t find it or maybe someone who is more savvy than I can. I know this because my family’s business is there. So I do know this first hand.
> Lastly, and this is not directed at any one person, please educate yourselves on the distinct difference between “Made In…” and “100% Made In…”. Insert whatever country you want.
> There is a huge difference.


Interesting.

If most of the leather goods are machine made, are they then partly assembled by hand? When I purchase bags or leather goods, I always look at multiples of the same item. If it’s not possible at one store, I look at the same item at another store, even if I’ve already purchased it. I like to compare how the items are made. I’m the person that’s fascinated by how different each item is assembled.

I notice the bags are never the same. There are so many different details that differ from each piece, from stitching, overall shape, size to length of chain, quilts, etc, that allude to hand craftsmanship. So I’m confused by those referring to most leather goods being machine made. Is the machine used to sew certain pieces and then artisans finish off the bag?


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> Interesting.
> 
> If most of the leather goods are machine made, are they then partly assembled by hand? When I purchase bags or leather goods, I always look at multiples of the same item. If it’s not possible at one store, I look at the same item at another store, even if I’ve already purchased it. I like to compare how the items are made. I’m the person that’s fascinated by how different each item is assembled.
> 
> I notice the bags are never the same. There are so many different details that differ from each piece, from stitching, overall shape, size to length of chain, quilts, etc, that allude to hand craftsmanship. So I’m confused by those referring to most leather goods being machine made. Is the machine used to sew certain pieces and then artisans finish off the bag?


So they make over 72000 bags PER DAY. By the math that would be over 36 handbags per person per day… which is a lot at minimum wage.


----------



## Swanky

Who makes 72k bags/day?  I'd be interested in seeing that info!  My family owns a manufacturing business (bottling and stuff) and it's ALL done by machine and that number is pretty big.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> So they make over 72000 bags PER DAY. By the math that would be over 36 handbags per person per day… which is a lot at minimum wage.


I understand what you’re saying, but when I look at the bags, they don’t appear to be machine made because there are far too many inconsistencies with each one. They’re all completely different and it appears were made by different people.

What I’m wondering is if the interior parts of the bag (pockets, etc) are machine made and then the other parts assembled by hand. Because that’s what it appears to be to me and I’ve heard this before. Even with machine made products nothing is ever 100% exact, but Chanel bags and leather goods imo do not appear to be 100% machine made. They can’t be when each item differs so much. But obviously I’m trying to understand exactly what some are claiming.


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> Who makes 72k bags/day?  I'd be interested in seeing that info!  My family owns a manufacturing business (bottling and stuff) and it's ALL done by machine and that number is pretty big.


They make 15 million bags per year. Divided by 210 working days per year. Not including holidays. 15m/210 = 72k.  And they don’t employ that many people as a company.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> I understand what you’re saying, but when I look at the bags, they don’t appear to be machine made because there are far too many inconsistencies with each one. They’re all completely different and it appears were made by different people.
> 
> What I’m wondering is if the interior parts of the bag (pockets, etc) are machine made and then the other parts assembled by hand. Because that’s what it appears to be to me and I’ve heard this before. Even with machine made products nothing is ever 100% exact, but Chanel bags and leathers goods imo do not appear to be 100% machine made. They can’t be when each item differs so much. But obviously I’m trying to understand exactly what some are claiming.


Well I would say that irregularities happen in all machine made mass produced  products. Fast fashion, furniture, bedding, other textiles. Etc. they aren’t all 100% the same.


----------



## Swanky

I'd love to see the info on the number of bags made/year, is there a link?


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Well I would say that irregularities happen in all machine made mass produced  products. Fast fashion, furniture, bedding, other textiles. Etc. they aren’t all 100% the same.


I’m confirming that as well, but I’ve purchased many luxury designer bags and I can attest to the difference in how unique each Chanel bag is in this case. Hermes we won’t even question here.

It would be impossible for each bag to be 100% machine made and all look this distinctly different in the details. You can even see the different stress points in the sewing.

Or if they are using machines “by hand” that is also something I’ve heard before from LV. If anyone can elaborate with inside knowledge I’d love to hear your thoughts.


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> I'd love to see the info on the number of bags made/year, is there a link?


My SA who has been there for 17 years? I am out of town bit but I can confirm again later. I would say also this is a well known number.


----------



## Swanky

TraceySH said:


> My SA who has been there for 17 years? I am out of town bit but I can confirm again later. I would say also this is a well known number.



I've never heard it, it sounds pretty high in my personal opinion.  I'd love to see some verification is all.


----------



## tulipfield

I think there's some disagreement on this thread as to what constitutes handmade vs. machine-made?  Fashion is an industry that uses a ton of human labor even now, and it doesn't matter if it's Shein hyper-fast fashion or Hermes bespoke whatever.  There's no machine that makes a handbag or a garment from start to finish--workers have to operate the sewing machines.  If fashion could be entirely machine-made there'd be no cause to off-shore its manufacture (note how even cheap cosmetics or skincare are still often made in America, since that process is almost entirely mechanized).

FWIW I don't think hand-sewing is necessarily preferable to machine-sewing.  There are things you can accomplish with one method and not with the other.  It takes a great deal of skill to operate a sewing machine as well.


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> I've never heard it, it sounds pretty high in my personal opinion.  I'd love to see some verification is all.


Will only come from tribal knowledge due to the opacity of Chanel as we’ve discussed at length ..


----------



## bagsaremyjam

tulipfield said:


> I think there's some disagreement on this thread as to what constitutes handmade vs. machine-made?  Fashion is an industry that uses a ton of human labor even now, and it doesn't matter if it's Shein hyper-fast fashion or Hermes bespoke whatever.  There's no machine that makes a handbag or a garment from start to finish--workers have to operate the sewing machines.  If fashion could be entirely machine-made there'd be no cause to off-shore its manufacture (note how even cheap cosmetics or skincare are still often made in America, since that process is almost entirely mechanized).
> 
> FWIW I don't think hand-sewing is necessarily preferable to machine-sewing.  There are things you can accomplish with one method and not with the other.  It takes a great deal of skill to operate a sewing machine as well.


Yes. There have been flippant remarks about everything being machine made to take away from the handmade craftsmanship we expect with a bag like Chanel for example. And I think that’s where the confusion is. 

Because machine made in most of our minds is all done with machines, and with the comment above thats they’re all machine made when x amount of bags are made a day, it doesn’t make sense to me. Hand making a bag using machines is still hand made to me.


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> I've never heard it, it sounds pretty high in my personal opinion.  I'd love to see some verification is all.


Ok he said that included all leather goods..


----------



## zaraha

ntntgo said:


> “Lastly, and this is not directed at any one person, please educate yourselves on the distinct difference between “Made In…” and “100% Made In…”. Insert whatever country you want.
> There is a huge difference.”


100% agree, Companies are pretty creative now days.  It’s a global market to find the lowest cost for labor and parts, so companies can make the highest possible profit margin.


----------



## gail13

In the end then, if everything does require machines to make and the human touch is adding the chains, maybe the turnlock, what is distinguishing luxury bags from the others such as Michael Kors, Tory Burch, wouldn't it all be the same? Those bags all have limited runs on collections, colors and leathers.  IMO hand crafted is what Im looking for, something with a noticeable quality difference. This whole thing about quality, leathers, hand crafting-the absence of which is why the counterfeits are getting to hard to spot. There is no difference in the making of these things.

The RTW aspect I can see utilizing more hand done work on some but not all pieces.


----------



## park56

TraceySH said:


> Yeah it's not leather. Neither is the 22 bag. Bonded leather at best. See the peeling above the chafing? NOT leather lol.
> 
> View attachment 5576902


Yikes. SO sorry. The quality really seems to have gone downhill


----------



## 880

bagsaremyjam said:


> Hand making a bag using machines is still hand made to me.


Ahh, machine stitched by human hands is machine made to me 

imo only, artisanal hand made is stitched entirely by hand with tools, aka my duret bag
ETA: by one extremely skilled artisan (whom I had the pleasure of meeting)
this particular artisan trained H craftspeople for many years. 

i do have a number of Birkins and kellys , which are hand stitched, but they are not as finely stitched.

by my definition, most of Hermes bags and all of chanel is machine made.

to me, chanel bags differ bc different factories, different settings, different years, different hides.

@gail13, I agree with your point. IMO, other than the bag quality, the difference between Tory Burch and chanel is the strength of the premier brand; the quality of the design; and the retention of value in resale.

my one Duret bag, as perfect as it is, will not retain value.  it’s a work of art, whose design is specific to Duret.

ETA: there is a fact bandied about on line that a 2.55 bag is made by 6-15 people over 15-18 hours. IMO that conjures up a factory assembly line, with nary a hand stitch in sight. I still like my so black mini chevron reissue and other chanel bags very much. They’re great fashion pieces


----------



## park56

mzbaglady1 said:


> I came across plenty of Chanel bags that I wanted to purchase but I immediately stopped because of that plasticly feel and look.  I couldn't put my finger on what this material was.  For me just because it's Chanel and the history I refuse to purchase any merchandise that is subpar quality.


I tried some smaller pieces in caviar (SLG / small bags) and was shocked by 1) how thin the leather felt and 2) how plastic-y the handfeel was


----------



## ItsPurseonal

FWIW I think the 15M leather goods per year number is likely inflated. Even if you assume revenue from each of those is on average $3k (I think it's likely more), that's $45B in annual revenue from leather goods alone. (I realize # produced is not necessarily the same as # sold, but there are public references for # sold, so I'm making a simplifying assumption to ballpark it.)

For reference, LVMH made $76B (converted to USD) in revenue last year and ~half of that was from the "fashion and leather goods" subsidiaries. If the Chanel number above was correct, Chanel would be making ~20% more from leather goods sales than LV, Dior, Fendi, Celine, Loewe combined. I haven't done a ton of research into this beyond the quick google search, but I'd be surprised if Chanel really was making 15M leather goods per year (unless half of them are being held in a hidden stock room somewhere!). 

Regardless, I agree that Chanel's QA has been horrendous and that they let too many defective pieces onto the showroom floor. Also seems like they've started to use lower quality leather (IMO the pearl crush minis is where it really became apparent), regardless of how it's stitched together.


----------



## TraceySH

880 said:


> Ahh, machine stitched by human hands is machine made to me
> 
> imo only, artisanal hand made is stitched entirely by hand with tools, aka my duret bag
> ETA: by one extremely skilled artisan (whom I had the pleasure of meeting)
> this particular artisan trained H craftspeople for many years.
> 
> i do have a number of Birkins and kellys , which are hand stitched, but they are not as finely stitched.
> 
> by my definition, most of Hermes bags and all of chanel is machine made.
> 
> to me, chanel bags differ bc different factories, different settings, different years, different hides.
> 
> @gail13, I agree with your point. IMO, other than the bag quality, the difference between Tory Burch and chanel is the strength of the premier brand; the quality of the design; and the retention of value in resale.
> 
> my one Duret bag, as perfect as it is, will not retain value.  it’s a work of art, whose design is specific to Duret.
> 
> ETA: there is a fact bandied about on line that a 2.55 bag is made by 6-15 people over 15-18 hours. IMO that conjures up a factory assembly line, with nary a hand stitch in sight. I still like my so black mini chevron reissue and other chanel bags very much. They’re great fashion pieces


Your Duret bag is just amazing btw.


----------



## 880

TraceySH said:


> Your Duret bag is just amazing btw.


Thank you so much @TraceySH. It’s the finest crafted item I expect I will ever own 
perhaps a very imperfect analogy is a top of the line Mercedes versus that famous Swedish sportscar brand beginning with a K (yes, the latter is machined, but it seems to be far more carefully put together, IDK ).

There is a continuum of sorts that’s fuzzy even in my head between 100% machined; partial; and fully hand made.
I mean I believe the templates for the flaps had to have been cut by some kind of machine Lol.

ETA: @TraceySH , re the Duret bag, by work of art, I also mean the bag is also really his vision, not yours lol. So you have to buy into all of that before starting down that path. @Tasha1 has her own experience 
in the eponymous thread Duret.


----------



## TraceySH

880 said:


> Thank you so much @TraceySH. It’s the finest crafted item I expect I will ever own


You told me before to look into it, based on my grievances  in this thread alone, I’d say it’s time


----------



## Liberté

880 said:


> Ahh, machine stitched by human hands is machine made to me
> 
> imo only, artisanal hand made is stitched entirely by hand with tools, aka my duret bag
> ETA: by one extremely skilled artisan (whom I had the pleasure of meeting)
> this particular artisan trained H craftspeople for many years.
> 
> i do have a number of Birkins and kellys , which are hand stitched, but they are not as finely stitched.
> 
> by my definition, most of Hermes bags and all of chanel is machine made.
> 
> to me, chanel bags differ bc different factories, different settings, different years, different hides.
> 
> @gail13, I agree with your point. IMO, other than the bag quality, the difference between Tory Burch and chanel is the strength of the premier brand; the quality of the design; and the retention of value in resale.
> 
> my one Duret bag, as perfect as it is, will not retain value.  it’s a work of art, whose design is specific to Duret.
> 
> ETA: there is a fact bandied about on line that a 2.55 bag is made by 6-15 people over 15-18 hours. IMO that conjures up a factory assembly line, with nary a hand stitch in sight. I still like my so black mini chevron reissue and other chanel bags very much. They’re great fashion pieces


I think you bring up an important point, to expand a little. I think most people wouldn't be happy with all handmade bags with saddle stitch and no machines involved based on the feedback here on the forum. I also have a few items from an independent artisan and from hermes and there will be irregularities with this kind of stitching and craftsmanship,  even if it's at very high standards of craftsmanship ( see examples attached - some of these items need spa to be honest). These are extreme close ups of particular areas that require reinforcement or more complicated areas, so it looks less irregular in real life. The non hermes items are also manually cut leather pieces and not lazer cut, perhaps hermes item too, but not sure.

I would  consider this a completely different product compared to what most of the luxury brands are offering. There are also no plastic stabilizer in them unless it's required for let's say the bottom of  a big bag. Even smaller chanel lv and dior pieces have them, which is great for structure and weight,  but also great for being able to use less sturdy and thinner leather pieces.

I'm not sure if hand made  products are always  better or more durable, I'd rather have machine with hand finishing in more durable materials than a poorly made saddle stitch. There are pros and cons.







But machine stitching should be even and i have peices  from LV where someone seems to have fallen asleep on the machine , which isn't ok for LV or chanel even if it's subtle in my opinion.


----------



## 880

Liberté said:


> I think you bring up an important point, to expand a little. I think most people wouldn't be happy with all handmade bags with saddle stitch and no machines involved based on the feedback here on the forum. I also have a few items from an independent artisan and from hermes and there will be irregularities with this kind of stitching and craftsmanship,  even if it's at very high standards of craftsmanship ( see examples attached - some of these items need spa to be honest). These are extreme close ups of particular areas that require reinforcement or more complicated areas, so it looks less irregular in real life. The non hermes items are also manually cut leather pieces and not lazer cut, perhaps hermes item too, but not sure.
> 
> I would  consider this a completely different product compared to what most of the luxury brands are offering. There are also no plastic stabilizer in them unless it's required for let's say the bottom of  a big bag. Even smaller chanel lv and dior pieces have them, which is great for structure and weight,  but also great for being able to use less sturdy and thinner leather pieces.
> 
> I'm not sure if hand made  products are always  better or more durable, I'd rather have machine with hand finishing in more durable materials than a poorly made saddle stitch. There are pros and cons.
> 
> View attachment 5579859
> View attachment 5579860
> View attachment 5579861
> 
> 
> 
> But machine stitching should be even and i have peices  from LV where someone seems to have fallen asleep on the machine , which isn't ok for LV or chanel even if it's subtle in my opinion.
> View attachment 5579867


100%

actually, perhaps my quibble is made by 6-15 individuals taking 18 hours, conjures up an image of a sweatshop with a pile of 2.55 bags each waiting to be taken to the next step by indifferent or minimum wage individuals. I’m kind of envisioning the episode of I love Lucy where she and Ethel are taking part in an assembly line making chocolate candies. . . The very opposite of skilled careful craft.

it’s not entirely the machine stitching aspect ( with a nod to the point made by @bagsaremyjam ) . . . upon further reflection, perhaps I would say that a bag machine stitched by a single skilled artisan is somewhat handmade? Just as couture might have a hand cut pattern, but a variety of machine work? IDK I’m not being very articulate here apologies.

Big brands other than Hermes can of course do this. Tomas Maiar’s cabat is the example that springs to my mind. But BV mass produces other bags to make the profits.

the 19 tote, of course would take even less time.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

880 said:


> Ahh, machine stitched by human hands is machine made to me
> 
> imo only, artisanal hand made is stitched entirely by hand with tools, aka my duret bag
> ETA: by one extremely skilled artisan (whom I had the pleasure of meeting)
> this particular artisan trained H craftspeople for many years.
> 
> i do have a number of Birkins and kellys , which are hand stitched, but they are not as finely stitched.
> 
> by my definition, most of Hermes bags and all of chanel is machine made.
> 
> to me, chanel bags differ bc different factories, different settings, different years, different hides.
> 
> @gail13, I agree with your point. IMO, other than the bag quality, the difference between Tory Burch and chanel is the strength of the premier brand; the quality of the design; and the retention of value in resale.
> 
> my one Duret bag, as perfect as it is, will not retain value.  it’s a work of art, whose design is specific to Duret.
> 
> ETA: there is a fact bandied about on line that a 2.55 bag is made by 6-15 people over 15-18 hours. IMO that conjures up a factory assembly line, with nary a hand stitch in sight. I still like my so black mini chevron reissue and other chanel bags very much. They’re great fashion pieces


I do not doubt the quality of the Duret bag you speak of.

But I have to highly disregard comparing a Tory Burch bag to Chanel. That’s crazy imo. In spite of peoples feelings with deteriorating quality with Chanel, etc, there’s absolutely no way you can make the comparison to contemporary fashion brands. There are major quality differences.


----------



## 880

bagsaremyjam said:


> I do not doubt the quality of the Duret bag you speak of.
> 
> But I have to highly disregard comparing a Tory Burch bag to Chanel. That’s crazy imo. In spite of peoples feelings with deteriorating quality with Chanel, etc, there’s absolutely no way you can make the comparison to contemporary fashion brands. There are major quality differences.


I’ve owned many chanel bags, but not one tory Burch lol  

@bagsaremyjam ,






						Duret bag
					

My journey for an exotic bag started a couple years ago. I spent enough time on my research. I found loads of information on this forum and I am very thankful two ladies Tracey SH and 880 who helped me enormously in this journey.   The bag that appealed to me was on the Duret site. I liked her...




					forum.purseblog.com


----------



## bagsaremyjam

880 said:


> I’ve owned many chanel bags, but not one tory Burch lol


I never have owned a Tory Burch bag and never will, but I’ve seen and felt the bags, lol. I’ve also seen and looked at all the contemporary fashion brands some are now comparing to Chanel and I find it humorous. I’ve purchased bags in the $200-$400 range for no fuss bags I don’t have to think twice about. Even the ones that appear to be good quality inevitably never hold up to my Chanel bags or other bags I own from other luxury brands. They don’t come remotely close. You see the wear within months.

I’ve had bags since I was 17 when I wasn’t as particular with care as I am now, put away in dust bags and forgotten, left in the garage for lengths of time, and the condition they’re in is incredible. It’s what I expect from the designer bags I’ve purchased. There are variables of course with designers. I would own an Hermes bag or two but only care for one style and a few colors and don’t feel like playing their games with purchasing, although I’ve owned enough of their other leather goods.

I feel I’ve purchased enough bags in my life from contemporary and luxury brands to form this opinion.


----------



## 880

bagsaremyjam said:


> I never have owned a Tory Burch bag and never will, but I’ve seen and felt the bags, lol. I’ve also seen and looked at all the contemporary fashion brands some are now comparing to Chanel and I find it humorous. I’ve purchased bags in the $200-$400 range for no fuss bags I don’t have to think twice about. Even the ones that appear to be good quality inevitably never hold up to my Chanel bags or other bags I own from other luxury brands. They don’t come remotely close. You see the wear within months.
> 
> I’ve had bags since I was 17 when I wasn’t as particular with care as I am now, put away in dust bags and forgotten, left in the garage for lengths of time, and the condition they’re in is incredible. It’s what I expect from the designer bags I’ve purchased. There are variables of course with designers. I would own an Hermes bag or two but only care for one style and a few colors and don’t feel like playing their games with purchasing, although I’ve owned enough of their other leather goods.
> 
> I feel I’ve purchased enough bags in my life from contemporary and luxury brands to form this opinion.


Agree  (whispering, but perhaps neither of us will buy a 19 tote 





						Duret bag
					

My journey for an exotic bag started a couple years ago. I spent enough time on my research. I found loads of information on this forum and I am very thankful two ladies Tracey SH and 880 who helped me enormously in this journey.   The bag that appealed to me was on the Duret site. I liked her...




					forum.purseblog.com
				




apologies for duplicate posts


----------



## GucciGoneWild

Hopefully not restating an opinion which as already been shared..but I stopped by a local boutique today and in the process of looking at a CF the SA tells me that around “90% of Chanel’s classic flaps are a little bit crooked, just depends how much”.  Honesty is the best policy and I definitely appreciated that, but just more evidence Chanel is aware of the issues but not interested in fixing the problem.  So just have fun with it because they are


----------



## mzbaglady1

90% is a very high number to have crooked flaps on a 5000.00 bag.  I appreciate a Sa honesty and do not play mind games by trying to disregard a blatant visual  defect with the product.


----------



## gail13

I would really love to play a game where three bags of competing designers are laid side by side with the emblems and any branding detail removed to see what would we would all pick in terms of quality.  And then again lay those 3 bags side by side with the branding in place to see what happens.

When Karl was designing, I loved his work and creativity. Thats also what made the difference to me. With Virginie, Im not seeing anywhere near the creativity.

@bagsaremyjam, playing devils advocate here, what are the main differences you see? Im talking about other designers including TB who are priced in the 1k range. The ones who disclose materials used etc. Because some of these look pretty nice to me, but you can order on a website and obviously not as exclusive.


----------



## ItsPurseonal

gail13 said:


> I would really love to play a game where three bags of competing designers are laid side by side with the emblems and any branding detail removed to see what would we would all pick in terms of quality.


This reminds me of a game my family plays during the holidays with wine where the bottles are wrapped so we cannot see the labels


----------



## EpiFanatic

My vintage Gucci and Dior bags (from 1970s) have held up amazingly well, but I also did not use them much. My mom’s canvas LV bags and my Coach bag from the 1980s are much more beat up cause they were used and never babied.But I would venture to say that construction has changed quite a bit since then.  My worst experience is a Goyard with coating on the straps that started ripping after one use. Yes. One. And all I put in it was a sweater, wallet and keys. Happened to my green one and my moms red one.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> I would really love to play a game where three bags of competing designers are laid side by side with the emblems and any branding detail removed to see what would we would all pick in terms of quality.  And then again lay those 3 bags side by side with the branding in place to see what happens.
> 
> When Karl was designing, I loved his work and creativity. Thats also what made the difference to me. With Virginie, Im not seeing anywhere near the creativity.
> 
> @bagsaremyjam, playing devils advocate here, what are the main differences you see? Im talking about other designers including TB who are priced in the 1k range. The ones who disclose materials used etc. Because some of these look pretty nice to me, but you can order on a website and obviously not as exclusive.


There’s no comparison. If you feel, touch and examine a contemporary brand vs a designer brand bag there’s a myriad of difference. Initially it will be aesthetics, then will move on to touch and feel, quality of materials, then the hardware, finishing and details. Many cannot see the difference - if a person is not detail oriented or have a passion for design and/or fashion and style, appreciation of craftsmanship, they’re likely buying a bag based on the name, reputation, status, etc, which I feel is a large majority of clients.

I’ve heard people proclaim a TB, Michael Kors, Coach, etc is better quality than a designer brand and I wince at that opinion. Once you’ve purchased at least a dozen bags between contemporary and designer and use both the difference is palpable.

It’s like comparing a banana to a mango - it’s pointless. And hard to describe to someone who hasn’t handled and used plenty of both. Kind of like people who compare Prada nylon to regular nylon. Initially it may seem the same, but when you take a close look and examine, feel and use a regular nylon bag compared to a Prada it’s night and day. If not abused and cared for many designer bags will last decades, if not a lifetime.


----------



## lalame

Wow I didn't realize the 22 or 19 were bonded leather. I feel slightly vindicated because I thought they looked and felt quite cheap but, not having owned any Chanel or being an expert by any means, I just thought my instincts must've been way off. IMO this thread is the best of TPF... I know it's very polarizing when someone has such an extreme bad opinion about any bag here but it really does bring out a great discussion among experts!


----------



## snowing may

gail13 said:


> When Karl was designing, I loved his work and creativity. Thats also what made the difference to me. With Virginie, Im not seeing anywhere near the creativity.


+ 1


----------



## TraceySH

lalame said:


> Wow I didn't realize the 22 or 19 were bonded leather. I feel slightly vindicated because I thought they looked and felt quite cheap but, not having owned any Chanel or being an expert by any means, I just thought my instincts must've been way off. IMO this thread is the best of TPF... I know it's very polarizing when someone has such an extreme bad opinion about any bag here but it really does bring out a great discussion among experts!


Agree. Was thinking this today, this is the best of us here!


----------



## 880

Is this a defect, is the normal for this Chanel item?
					

I’m planning to wear it. Also Will they be able to fix that part if I take it to the store?  Just wear it, stop worrying about it. Chances are once you start putting things in it you wont notice it either. Life is too short to worry about a bag you've owned for 4 years that has sat in a box. Use...




					forum.purseblog.com
				



Re the issue of crooked flaps (top of the page)
I recalled another TPFers post in the thread above
@elaineiwhite posted in that thread, page 89, that the flap is cut evenly
its the arch of the bag that is lopsided (due to storage, smushing, uneven stuffing, etc) 
imo this makes sense and explains some of the so called defects of CFs generally
though of course not the issues introduced by OP here


----------



## elaineiwhite

If you look at the arch of a classic flap from the sides, you can see it is not even. One reason not mentioned might be that an artisan is creating the arch of a flap and not a machine, so evenness will vary to different degrees.


----------



## gail13

As someone here brought up nylon Prada bags which I happen to agree are terrific, they are made from a type of nylon called Econyl;  a recycled nylon which is amazing. It is used however on a multitude of products from the Adida line to other non designer items back to Prada.  There are multiple articles that discuss it. It is an example of how pricing does not mean better quality. You can find things for a few hundred on up to a few thousand.

We need to recognize as consumers that most of us are willing to pay for the brand name. Luxury items do not promise to be better made or to last any longer than less expensive options. It's all designed to make you feel you are carrying a perceived prestigious item.

At the end of the day we want the cool creation, not some redo of last seasons bag, we want quality products, and we want to know what we are buying. Are we getting leather, some mixture of leather and PVC, coated leather, or something else.  I do notice that the bags only imply the type of leather on the website which I never paid attention to until this thread.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> As someone here brought up nylon Prada bags which I happen to agree are terrific, they are made from a type of nylon called Econyl;  a recycled nylon which is amazing. It is used however on a multitude of products from the Adida line to other non designer items back to Prada.  There are multiple articles that discuss it. It is an example of how pricing does not mean better quality. You can find things for a few hundred on up to a few thousand.
> 
> We need to recognize as consumers that most of us are willing to pay for the brand name. Luxury items do not promise to be better made or to last any longer than less expensive options. It's all designed to make you feel you are carrying a perceived prestigious item.
> 
> At the end of the day we want the cool creation, not some redo of last seasons bag, we want quality products, and we want to know what we are buying. Are we getting leather, some mixture of leather and PVC, coated leather, or something else.  I do notice that the bags only imply the type of leather on the website which I never paid attention to until this thread.


And insofar as that, the website might also not be accurate ..


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> As someone here brought up nylon Prada bags which I happen to agree are terrific, they are made from a type of nylon called Econyl;  a recycled nylon which is amazing. It is used however on a multitude of products from the Adida line to other non designer items back to Prada.  There are multiple articles that discuss it. It is an example of how pricing does not mean better quality. You can find things for a few hundred on up to a few thousand.
> 
> We need to recognize as consumers that most of us are willing to pay for the brand name. Luxury items do not promise to be better made or to last any longer than less expensive options. It's all designed to make you feel you are carrying a perceived prestigious item.
> 
> At the end of the day we want the cool creation, not some redo of last seasons bag, we want quality products, and we want to know what we are buying. Are we getting leather, some mixture of leather and PVC, coated leather, or something else.  I do notice that the bags only imply the type of leather on the website which I never paid attention to until this thread.


And just fyi here’s a list of brands that use econyl including Gucci and Prada …and adidas, Roxy, Speedo, Tommy Hilfiger…








						Apparel - Econyl
					






					www.econyl.com


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> And just fyi here’s a list of brands that use econyl including Gucci and Prada …and adidas, Roxy, Speedo, Tommy Hilfiger…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparel - Econyl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.econyl.com


Its a very cool fabric. I'm wanting to go compare these other pieces.  Speedo lol?


I used to do trunk shows and sold well known items I sourced here in LA without the labels. I learned that people would rather pay much more to have the label in it. Even though a brand without the label is the same exact thing, people feel better spending more on the one with the name in it. Advertising and psychology are powerful.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> Its a very cool fabric. I'm wanting to go compare these other pieces.  Speedo lol?
> 
> 
> I used to do trunk shows and sold well known items I sourced here in LA without the labels. I learned that people would rather pay much more to have the label in it. Even though a brand without the label is the same exact thing, people feel better spending more on the one with the name in it. Advertising and psychology are powerful.


And those shared factories in Italy that make all brands of items in the same place - from Vince & Rag & Bone, to Gucci, Chanel, Ferragamo etc. Same leathers. Same workers. Just different brand stamps and prices.


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> And those shared factories in Italy that make all brands of items in the same place - from Vince & Rag & Bone, to Gucci, Chanel, Ferragamo etc. Same leathers. Same workers. Just different brand stamps and prices.


Yes that makes sense. I was looking at Karl Lagerfeld and assuming his products shared facilities but I don't know that for certain.  His products seem pretty average quality wise.  Im just not buying into the notion that we are getting more for our money these days. I did believe it 5 years ago but not any more.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> Yes that makes sense. I was looking at Karl Lagerfeld and assuming his products shared facilities but I don't know that for certain.  His products seem pretty average quality wise.  Im just not buying into the notion that we are getting more for our money these days. I did believe it 5 years ago but not any more.


After all, it’s meant to be fashion. Function, quality & durability are afterthoughts. Leather goods houses probably have a different approach, logically.


----------



## cerulean blue

From what I’ve heard, Prada only sources yarn from ECONYL, the fabric production is made by Limonta, the final product is high-performance with a synthetic resin coating.

I think Aquafil ECONYL only makes the yarn, other factories make the fabric.


----------



## gail13

From the Karl Lagerfeld site. This bag retails at $248 and its shiny lambskin. 

THE AGYNESS COLLECTION SPEAKS TO THE BRAND'S HERITAGE WITH TIMELESS DETAILS. LUXURIOUS, CLASSIC SHAPES EMBODY REFINED ELEGANCE WITH SIGNATURE LEATHER QUILTING, FLAP CLOSURES, TURN LOCKS, AND CHAIN DETAILS. A RESURGENCE OF BOUCLE IS A MODERN NOD TO THE BRAND'S PRESTIGIOUS PAST.

LAMB LEATHER
FLAP CLOSURE WITH TURN LOCK
EXTERIOR: 1 BACK SLIP POCKET
INTERIOR: 1 ZIPPER POCKET, 1 SLIP POCKET
ADJUSTABLE AND CONVERTIBLE CHAIN STRAPS
11" - 19" STRAP DROP
10"W X 6"H X 3"D
WIPE CLEAN
IMPORTED

AS ONE OF THE WORLD’S MOST CELEBRATED FASHION DESIGNERS, KARL LAGERFELD IS RENOWNED FOR HIS ASPIRATIONAL AND CUTTING-EDGE APPROACH TO STYLE. THE ICONIC DESIGNER’S NAMESAKE FASHION HOUSE, HEADQUARTERED IN PARIS’ SAINT-GERMAIN-DES-PRÉS DISTRICT, REFLECTS HIS OWN SIGNATURE AESTHETIC THROUGH CREATIVE, COOL AND ACCESSIBLE-LUXE APPAREL AND ACCESSORIES. NOW, KARL LAGERFELD BRINGS HIS UNIQUE VISION OF PARISIAN CHIC TO AMERICA: KARL LAGERFELD PARIS, WITH COLLECTIONS INCLUDING READY-TO-WEAR FOR WOMEN, ACCESSORIES, SHOES AND BAGS. THE FASHION HOUSE KARL LAGERFELD ALSO OFFERS A RANGE OF WATCHES, EYEWEAR AND PREMIUM FRAGRANCES.


----------



## gail13

cerulean blue said:


> From what I’ve heard, Prada only sources yarn from ECONYL, the fabric production is made by Limonta, the final product is high-performance with a synthetic resin coating.
> 
> I think Aquafil ECONYL only makes the yarn, other factories make the fabric.


Its very nice and people seem to love it. Im curious to see what these other well known brands are doing with it.


----------



## TraceySH

cerulean blue said:


> From what I’ve heard, Prada only sources yarn from ECONYL, the fabric production is made by Limonta, the final product is high-performance with a synthetic resin coating.
> 
> I think Aquafil ECONYL only makes the yarn, other factories make the fabric.


Looks like it’s more involved than that? On the econyl site re: Prada re-nylon






						Prada - Econyl
					






					www.econyl.com
				




And on the Prada site directly :



			https://www.prada.com/gb/en/pradasphere/special-projects/2019/prada-re-nylon-1.html


----------



## cerulean blue

TraceySH said:


> Looks like it’s more involved than that? On the econyl site re: Prada re-nylon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prada - Econyl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.econyl.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And on the Prada site directly :
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.prada.com/gb/en/pradasphere/special-projects/2019/prada-re-nylon-1.html


They partnered with Prada and Nat Geo for PR about how sustainable the yarn is. Since Prada’s whole shtick is Nylon it was a big deal for them.

There was this whole initial launch with a mini capsule collection of navy re-nylon Prada bags w/ special patches. But ECONYL is very explicit that they produce yarn.


----------



## TraceySH

cerulean blue said:


> They partnered with Prada and Nat Geo for PR about how sustainable the yarn is. Since Prada’s whole shtick is Nylon it was a big deal for them.
> 
> There was this whole initial launch with a mini capsule collection of navy re-nylon Prada bags w/ special patches. But ECONYL is very explicit that they produce yarn.


All really interesting. Just watched all the videos. At least there’s a stab at some transparency. It’s refreshing.


----------



## 880

gail13 said:


> From the Karl Lagerfeld site. This bag retails at $248 and its shiny lambskin.
> 
> THE AGYNESS COLLECTION SPEAKS TO THE BRAND'S HERITAGE WITH TIMELESS DETAILS. LUXURIOUS, CLASSIC SHAPES EMBODY REFINED ELEGANCE WITH SIGNATURE LEATHER QUILTING, FLAP CLOSURES, TURN LOCKS, AND CHAIN DETAILS. A RESURGENCE OF BOUCLE IS A MODERN NOD TO THE BRAND'S PRESTIGIOUS PAST.
> 
> LAMB LEATHER
> FLAP CLOSURE WITH TURN LOCK
> EXTERIOR: 1 BACK SLIP POCKET
> INTERIOR: 1 ZIPPER POCKET, 1 SLIP POCKET
> ADJUSTABLE AND CONVERTIBLE CHAIN STRAPS
> 11" - 19" STRAP DROP
> 10"W X 6"H X 3"D
> WIPE CLEAN
> IMPORTED
> 
> AS ONE OF THE WORLD’S MOST CELEBRATED FASHION DESIGNERS, KARL LAGERFELD IS RENOWNED FOR HIS ASPIRATIONAL AND CUTTING-EDGE APPROACH TO STYLE. THE ICONIC DESIGNER’S NAMESAKE FASHION HOUSE, HEADQUARTERED IN PARIS’ SAINT-GERMAIN-DES-PRÉS DISTRICT, REFLECTS HIS OWN SIGNATURE AESTHETIC THROUGH CREATIVE, COOL AND ACCESSIBLE-LUXE APPAREL AND ACCESSORIES. NOW, KARL LAGERFELD BRINGS HIS UNIQUE VISION OF PARISIAN CHIC TO AMERICA: KARL LAGERFELD PARIS, WITH COLLECTIONS INCLUDING READY-TO-WEAR FOR WOMEN, ACCESSORIES, SHOES AND BAGS. THE FASHION HOUSE KARL LAGERFELD ALSO OFFERS A RANGE OF WATCHES, EYEWEAR AND PREMIUM FRAGRANCES.


Someone pls buy one and compare


----------



## TraceySH

880 said:


> Someone pls buy one and compare


Omg. Great idea.


----------



## fairylady

So are the 19s made out of bonded leather or not? I see many people here saying “I can’t believe it’s made out of bonded leather…” has this been confirmed or everything is alleged? The reason I asked is because I’ve been babying my 19 thinking it’s delicate!!


----------



## TraceySH

fairylady said:


> So are the 19s made out of bonded leather or not? I see many people here saying “I can’t believe it’s made out of bonded leather…” has this been confirmed or everything is alleged? The reason I asked is because I’ve been babying my 19 thinking it’s delicate!!


Chanel will never address and never confirm, because that's just not what they do. 

It appears some are, some aren't. (Maybe earlier versions were just coated leather, more recent versions are bonded per several leather experts who Chanel has sent items to for repair, that cannot be repaired). The totes I posted here were "something else" - I knew immediately when I got them. BUT, to your point, I don't think the 19 bags are delicate. Clearly the 19 totes are unusable...


----------



## BorntoRunandShop

Great thread!   Thank you OP and everyone else that chimed in. No doubt Chanel’s quality has gone downhill. My first purchase was back in 2004. It wasn’t until 2016 that I began noticing certain things but no where near what it’s been the last two years.  Thankfully I’ve been careful with what I buy and have been satisfied with all my purchases.  I didn’t like the 19 bag when it first came out, but then it started to appeal to me. So I reached out my SA for one and for whatever reason I was still on the fence about it.  I finally went to a boutique to check it out.  My first impression was that it felt and looked cheap!  It was an immediate no for me.  I looked at both, the lambskin and goatskin.  So glad I didn’t get one in either, BUT I did get one in pink tweed and I’ve been happy with it, although I hardly take it out . 
So sorry to everyone that’s dealt with a bad piece.


----------



## gail13

880 said:


> Someone pls buy one and compare


I think they sell them at Saks Off 5th if anyone is headed over there.


----------



## ntntgo

880 said:


> Agree. So glad to see you posting.  There are many articles on the issues with pulia, and elsewhere, not only with camps within Italy, but goods transported from Schengen zone countries or Albania and given a mere finish. (Of course I only know this from what I read so would welcome correction lol)


Thanks 880. Good to be back. I’m realizing that I missed you all.


----------



## fantajisan

TraceySH said:


> Chanel will never address and never confirm, because that's just not what they do.
> 
> It appears some are, some aren't. (Maybe earlier versions were just coated leather, more recent versions are bonded per several leather experts who Chanel has sent items to for repair, that cannot be repaired). The totes I posted here were "something else" - I knew immediately when I got them. BUT, to your point, I don't think the 19 bags are delicate. Clearly the 19 totes are unusable...


I'm no leather expert lmao, but since I had to steam my 21B light gray 19 to get the wrinkles out, can confirm that it soaks up water (but eventually dries with no marks).


----------



## ntntgo

bagsaremyjam said:


> Interesting.
> 
> If most of the leather goods are machine made, are they then partly assembled by hand? When I purchase bags or leather goods, I always look at multiples of the same item. If it’s not possible at one store, I look at the same item at another store, even if I’ve already purchased it. I like to compare how the items are made. I’m the person that’s fascinated by how different each item is assembled.
> 
> I notice the bags are never the same. There are so many different details that differ from each piece, from stitching, overall shape, size to length of chain, quilts, etc, that allude to hand craftsmanship. So I’m confused by those referring to most leather goods being machine made. Is the machine used to sew certain pieces and then artisans finish off the bag?


Thank you for allowimg me to clarify. The leather is machine cut and mostly assembly line-like assembled. 
 Some of the stitching is done by hand by the well underpaid Chinese workers. However, since 2017, more and more are fully machine crafted. The only thing that is currently done by hand is the threading of the leather through the chains, which is likely why so many chains have to be either restrung or completely replaced, and some application of turn locks and other hardware. I’ve had quite a few bags that have had to be restrung or the bags replaced if available. 
The reason that you may notice that “bags are never the same” is due to the calibration of the machines. Additionally, they have multipLe shift workers using different machines. 
I certainly didn’t come back to TPF to try to change people’s minds. I am simply someone with a long relationship with them that goes back to my mother modeling for them in the ‘50s while in Paris in order to put herself through medical school. 
I have never professed to know it all however, I do have a different level of insight into the brand and how it has changed over the years.
I was simply providing factual information and people are welcome to ignore my knowledge base. 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was simply attempting to be helpful. 
Lastly, Chanel only uses the term “artisans” in regards to those that work in the Atelier. I think that we need to be careful how we use that term. 
Thank you all for your questions and comments. I am happy to entertain any questions or comments posed respectfully as I do the same when I participate in discussions.


----------



## Tyler_JP

I have to say, I was surprised to see that when I bought my first Tod's bag, it was stamped with "GENUINE LEATER" on the inside. Now I know why...


----------



## 880

ntntgo said:


> Thank you for allowimg me to clarify. The leather is machine cut and mostly assembly line-like assembled.
> Some of the stitching is done by hand by the well underpaid Chinese workers. However, since 2017, more and more are fully machine crafted. *The only thing that is currently done by hand is the threading of the leather through the chains, which is likely why so many chains have to be either restrung or completely replaced, and some application of turn locks and other hardware. I’ve had quite a few bags that have had to be restrung or the bags replaced if available.
> The reason that you may notice that “bags are never the same” is due to the calibration of the machines. Additionally, they have multipLe shift workers using different machines.*
> I certainly didn’t come back to TPF to try to change people’s minds. I am simply someone with a long relationship with them that goes back to my mother modeling for them in the ‘50s while in Paris in order to put herself through medical school.
> I have never professed to know it all however, I do have a different level of insight into the brand and how it has changed over the years.
> I was simply providing factual information and people are welcome to ignore my knowledge base.
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was simply attempting to be helpful.
> Lastly, Chanel only uses the term “artisans” in regards to those that work in the Atelier. I think that we need to be careful how we use that term.
> Thank you all for your questions and comments. I am happy to entertain any questions or comments posed respectfully as I do the same when I participate in discussions.


Thank you so much @ntntgo ! Your info was super clear and informative


----------



## papertiger

TraceySH said:


> And those shared factories in Italy that make all brands of items in the same place - from Vince & Rag & Bone, to Gucci, Chanel, Ferragamo etc. Same leathers. Same workers. Just different brand stamps and prices.



OT, but Gucci bags are made in Gucci factories. Bal and McQueen and lots of other brands are made in Gucci owed factories too, but Gucci's are defiantly made at Gucci. They tan and produce leather for other brands too. This is so Kerring keep all bands in house and the money never moves away from the parent company. 

I don't know which factories Chanel bags are made. But from design to manufacture it's a long process. Machine parts, materials and specialists have to found just to produce the samples, new designs often means lots of teething problems but this 19 tote seems (as the title of he thread implies) non-useable, they should be recalled.


----------



## waterlily112

I really don't understand how the leather varies so much in the 19 tote and chanel 22. Some of these bags I've seen have really thick, supple leather that can take a lot of beating, and then here comes really plastic-y, thin 'leather' that rubs off after one or two wears. Where's the consistency and how are they sourcing the materials to construct these bags?


----------



## TraceySH

papertiger said:


> OT, but Gucci bags are made in Gucci factories. Bal and McQueen and lots of other brands are made in Gucci owed factories too, but Gucci's are defiantly made at Gucci. They tan and produce leather for other brands too. This is so Kerring keep all bands in house and the money never moves away from the parent company.
> 
> I don't know which factories Chanel bags are made. But from design to manufacture it's a long process. Machine parts, materials and specialists have to found just to produce the samples, new designs often means lots of teething problems but this 19 tote seems (as the title of he thread implies) non-useable, they should be recalled.


Thank you for that. I knew there was some big thing about shoes, all sorts of shoes being made for all these brands in the same place...maybe it was in the Gucci owned factories?


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> As someone here brought up nylon Prada bags which I happen to agree are terrific, they are made from a type of nylon called Econyl;  a recycled nylon which is amazing. It is used however on a multitude of products from the Adida line to other non designer items back to Prada.  There are multiple articles that discuss it. It is an example of how pricing does not mean better quality. You can find things for a few hundred on up to a few thousand.
> 
> We need to recognize as consumers that most of us are willing to pay for the brand name. Luxury items do not promise to be better made or to last any longer than less expensive options. It's all designed to make you feel you are carrying a perceived prestigious item.
> 
> At the end of the day we want the cool creation, not some redo of last seasons bag, we want quality products, and we want to know what we are buying. Are we getting leather, some mixture of leather and PVC, coated leather, or something else.  I do notice that the bags only imply the type of leather on the website which I never paid attention to until this thread.


I agree and disagree. There can be perceived status in luxury items, but often it’s because luxury items are made with better quality. Is that 100% of the time, definitely not. Quality and price can come into question in regards to things like small accessories, water bottles, shirts, but can bleed into other areas.

With many brands their core products usually showcase why their prices are so high. If you purchase enough and pay attention it’s quite obvious.

Prada may use that brand’s nylon but I believe Prada nylon has a trademark because it has a sheen woven into the fabric that others don’t, which add to the durability and aesthetic. The quality also comes in the construction, leather and the hardware used on their nylon bags. I have Lululemon and ALO nylon waist bags and an Adidas nylon bag long ago, and if you think you can compare their quality to my Prada nylon bags that would be crazy. Even the way Prada’s woven straps are braided distinguish their quality. One of my first bags was a Prada nylon tote and after constant daily use years later it still looked like new.

Is luxury overpriced, especially now? It absolutely is. But no one will convince me that a very well made bag made without a label would rival quality to a Chanel or Hermes. There are other luxury companies that could, sure, like Moynat, etc, but to compare these brands to a contemporary brand is absurd.

I purchase and have purchased items from small businesses with known quality, from clothing to leather goods. None of them have come close to my designer items.

These analogies bother me because people take away from these fashion houses who have been around 100 years or much longer. They have a reputation and heritage for a reason. Even if you have issues with them or they aren’t always producing items without issues, their reputation is for a reason.

If you purchase and use enough items you could see for yourself. There’s many on here who can vouche for this. And not all luxury items can be compared to some of the most popular brands, luxury brands are not on the same tier.

I say this with confidence because I’ve purchased so many leather goods (for me, gifts for friends, family, bf’s in the past, my husband, etc). I’ve purchased things from bigger brands that have great quality per say and will last a long time, but they have never stood up to my Chanel, Hermes, and some of LV, Celine pieces.

Those who constantly downgrade luxury and it’s worth and compare it to contemporary brands imo don’t have enough experience and/or aren’t visual creatures who understand design, quality, etc. To me, it’s comparative to saying your jeweler can perfectly replicate a Cartier JUC bracelet. I have never seen a single replica that looked as good as the real thing. Cartier has perfected that bracelet in quality and design. There are just some things that cannot be replicated. That’s why luxury keeps getting more expensive and people continue to pay for it.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

waterlily112 said:


> I really don't understand how the leather varies so much in the 19 tote and chanel 22. Some of these bags I've seen have really thick, supple leather that can take a lot of beating, and then here comes really plastic-y, thin 'leather' that rubs off after one or two wears. Where's the consistency and how are they sourcing the materials to construct these bags?


This is a new issue with the 19 tote and 22 bags that no one has seen. I think they attempted something new and it didn’t work out or something off went down in their factories. I’m surprised the 19 tote hasn’t been pulled from stores as it’s a known issue.

Many people who have regular colored 22 bags love them and rave about the quality, both online and from those I’ve asked in person. It seems like the ones mixed with metallic colors are the ones with peeling issues from what I’ve seen.

In regards to the 19 tote, it’s made from lambskin, which is extremely thin and not the most durable. It seems like the coating was supposed mimi the classic 19 bag (in lamb), which seems to be heavily coated for durability (unlike most Chanel lamb bags that generally have little treatment).


----------



## zaraha

ntntgo said:


> Thank you for allowimg me to clarify. The leather is machine cut and mostly assembly line-like assembled.
> Some of the stitching is done by hand by the well underpaid Chinese workers. However, since 2017, more and more are fully machine crafted. The only thing that is currently done by hand is the threading of the leather through the chains, which is likely why so many chains have to be either restrung or completely replaced, and some application of turn locks and other hardware. I’ve had quite a few bags that have had to be restrung or the bags replaced if available.
> The reason that you may notice that “bags are never the same” is due to the calibration of the machines. Additionally, they have multipLe shift workers using different machines.
> I certainly didn’t come back to TPF to try to change people’s minds. I am simply someone with a long relationship with them that goes back to my mother modeling for them in the ‘50s while in Paris in order to put herself through medical school.
> I have never professed to know it all however, I do have a different level of insight into the brand and how it has changed over the years.
> I was simply providing factual information and people are welcome to ignore my knowledge base.
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was simply attempting to be helpful.
> Lastly, Chanel only uses the term “artisans” in regards to those that work in the Atelier. I think that we need to be careful how we use that term.
> Thank you all for your questions and comments. I am happy to entertain any questions or comments posed respectfully as I do the same when I participate in discussions.


@ntntgo I highly respect and value  members like you for your input, participation and able to learn more about chanel! 
I would love to see those modeling shots of your mom during 50’s (only if it doesn’t compromise your privacy)  I’m sure chanel was at different place back in 50’s “Grand Return” and I wish we can travel back in time.  But I think we are all honored to have you back on this forum!
Pic captured from book “ Vocabulary of style”  chanel salon, Paris July 1962


----------



## 880

bagsaremyjam said:


> There’s no comparison. If you feel, touch and examine a contemporary brand vs a designer brand bag there’s a myriad of difference. Initially it will be aesthetics, then will move on to touch and feel, quality of materials, then the hardware, finishing and details. Many cannot see the difference - if a person is not detail oriented or have a passion for design and/or fashion and style, appreciation of craftsmanship, they’re likely buying a bag based on the name, reputation, status, etc, which I feel is a large majority of clients.
> 
> I’ve heard people proclaim a TB, Michael Kors, Coach, etc is better quality than a designer brand and I wince at that opinion. Once you’ve purchased at least a dozen bags between contemporary and designer and use both the difference is palpable.
> 
> It’s like comparing a banana to a mango - it’s pointless. And hard to describe to someone who hasn’t handled and used plenty of both. Kind of like people who compare Prada nylon to regular nylon. Initially it may seem the same, but when you take a close look and examine, feel and use a regular nylon bag compared to a Prada it’s night and day. If not abused and cared for many designer bags will last decades, if not a lifetime.











						Buy AGYNESS SHOULDER BAG Online - Karl Lagerfeld Paris
					

THE AGYNESS COLLECTION SPEAKS TO THE BRAND'S HERITAGE WITH TIMELESS DETAILS. LUXURIOUS, CLASSIC SHAPES EMBODY REFINED ELEGANCE WITH SIGNATURE LEATHER QUILTING, FLAP CLOSURES, TURN LOCKS, AND CHAIN DETAILS. A RESURGENCE OF BOUCLE IS A MODERN NOD TO THE BRAND'S PRESTIGIOUS PAST.PEBBLE LEATHERFLAP...




					www.karllagerfeldparis.com
				



 (Joking of course) but the one with gold charms imbedded amid the quilts is very cute
made of original leather (not sure what that is) in china


----------



## gail13

There is so much info out there about luxury goods and why they are priced as they are. The psychology of it all is very interesting. So little is about quality. Its about the strength of the brand, the image they project and the image people want themselves to have. I have bought into quite a bit of it myself. But as I educate myself and look at some of the things out there now-actually most of it, its like fast fashion. Prices on past collections rising and falling quickly in about a 6 week time frame-I know because I tracked it.  It is very seldom that an item retains its value after that. 

I do not think most people would buy luxury goods for their quality if the brand name wasn't on it. If the bag or sweater was so well made and the design was great but it did not have a Hermes, Chanel etc name on it but it was one of those brands, it would not sell for half the price.  These brands have gotten so rich because we are such good consumers and buy into it all.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> There is so much info out there about luxury goods and why they are priced as they are. The psychology of it all is very interesting. So little is about quality. Its about the strength of the brand, the image they project and the image people want themselves to have. I have bought into quite a bit of it myself. But as I educate myself and look at some of the things out there now-actually most of it, its like fast fashion. Prices on past collections rising and falling quickly in about a 6 week time frame-I know because I tracked it.  It is very seldom that an item retains its value after that.
> 
> I do not think most people would buy luxury goods for their quality if the brand name wasn't on it. If the bag or sweater was so well made and the design was great but it did not have a Hermes, Chanel etc name on it but it was one of those brands, it would not sell for half the price.  These brands have gotten so rich because we are such good consumers and buy into it all.


= why reissues are near worthless on the resale market.....


----------



## waterlily112

bagsaremyjam said:


> This is a new issue with the 19 tote and 22 bags that no one has seen. I think they attempted something new and it didn’t work out or something off went down in their factories. I’m surprised the 19 tote hasn’t been pulled from stores as it’s a known issue.
> 
> Many people who have regular colored 22 bags love them and rave about the quality, both online and from those I’ve asked in person. It seems like the ones mixed with metallic colors are the ones with peeling issues from what I’ve seen.
> 
> In regards to the 19 tote, it’s made from lambskin, which is extremely thin and not the most durable. It seems like the coating was supposed mimi the classic 19 bag (in lamb), which seems to be heavily coated for durability (unlike most Chanel lamb bags that generally have little treatment).


I've seen the regular colored 22 with issues too. My friend bought one in black a while ago and it started to peel and crack after using it for roughly a week. I saw it in person the leather felt thin and a dry like plastic, the floor model I've once seen felt a lot more substantial, with thicker, softer leather. That's why I'm confused by both of the same style & color bag the leather can be so different.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> There is so much info out there about luxury goods and why they are priced as they are. The psychology of it all is very interesting. So little is about quality. Its about the strength of the brand, the image they project and the image people want themselves to have. I have bought into quite a bit of it myself. But as I educate myself and look at some of the things out there now-actually most of it, its like fast fashion. Prices on past collections rising and falling quickly in about a 6 week time frame-I know because I tracked it.  It is very seldom that an item retains its value after that.
> 
> I do not think most people would buy luxury goods for their quality if the brand name wasn't on it. If the bag or sweater was so well made and the design was great but it did not have a Hermes, Chanel etc name on it but it was one of those brands, it would not sell for half the price.  These brands have gotten so rich because we are such good consumers and buy into it all.


Yes marketing definitely plays into it. It always does. As does perceived status and lifestyle. And you are correct if the same well made item as a Chanel sweater were sold without the label it wouldn’t sell for the same price.

I still digress on dismissing the quality aspect. And scoff at the fast fashion analogy.

These brands have gotten so rich because they established themselves as luxury brands a very long time ago, exclusively for the elite, very wealthy royals. These brands were introduced into the US when it’s wealth grew, and eventually people of lower classes started purchasing these items. Then other countries outside of Europe started amassing wealth, like Australia, Asia, Canada, etc. Insert marketing and global brand awareness. Fast forward decades later to a society obsessed with labels unlike we’ve ever seen, thanks to social media and the internet and everyone all over the world being privy to everything, and here we are.

You cannot compare a fast fashion brand to luxury brands who’ve been around longer than all of us.

If you enter a store like Bergdorf’s, Hirschleifer’s, Maxfield’s or Harrod’s (or insert a luxury label or store), all labels are removed and you enter (insert fast fashion label) and all labels are removed, you’d find you couldn’t be more wrong about your assessment. It’s an offensive and ignorant analogy imo.

We can all have our different views, but as someone with a fashion background I take offense to the dismissive comparisons.


----------



## lsquare

TraceySH said:


> Chanel will never address and never confirm, because that's just not what they do.
> 
> It appears some are, some aren't. (Maybe earlier versions were just coated leather, more recent versions are bonded per several leather experts who Chanel has sent items to for repair, that cannot be repaired). The totes I posted here were "something else" - I knew immediately when I got them. BUT, to your point, I don't think the 19 bags are delicate. Clearly the 19 totes are unusable...


May I ask if your 19s are goatskin or lambskin? I really want one after seeing your pictures…


----------



## TraceySH

lsquare said:


> May I ask if your 19s are goatskin or lambskin? I really want one after seeing your pictures…


I have some of both/ 4 goat, 6 lamb?


----------



## lsquare

TraceySH said:


> I have some of both/ 4 goat, 6 lamb?


What about the particular ones in your experiments? Or do you think they are all as sturdy? It has been fascinating to read through this thread!


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> Yes marketing definitely plays into it. It always does. As does perceived status and lifestyle. And you are correct if the same well made item as a Chanel sweater were sold without the label it wouldn’t sell for the same price.
> 
> I still digress on dismissing the quality aspect. And scoff at the fast fashion analogy.
> 
> These brands have gotten so rich because they established themselves as luxury brands a very long time ago exclusively for the elite and very wealthy. Once these brands were introduced into the US and the country grew and money became more abundant, people of different classes started purchasing these items. Then other countries outside of Europe started amassing great wealth, in places like Australia, Asia, Canada, etc. Marketing, global brand awareness. Fast forward decades later to a society obsessed with labels unlike we’ve ever seen, thanks to social media and the internet and everyone all over the world being privy to everything, and her we are.
> 
> You cannot compare a fast fashion brand to a company who’s been around longer than all of us. To make that statement is ignorant imo.
> 
> If you enter a store like Bergdorf’s, Hirschleifer’s, Maxfield’s or Harrod’s (as en example), all labels are removed and you enter (insert fast fashion label) and all labels are removed, you’d find you couldn’t be more wrong about your assessment. It’s an offensive and ignorant analogy imo.
> 
> We can all have our different views, but as someone with a fashion background I take offense to the dismissive comparisons.


Well an interesting question for this, or quagmire rather, might be, is a luxury brand still a luxury brand when it's owned by a contemporary brand? I mean, if perception & heritage is everything, doesn't some of that abate after such an acquisition?


----------



## TraceySH

lsquare said:


> What about the particular ones in your experiments? Or do you think they are all as sturdy? It has been fascinating to read through this thread!


I just used the one dark grey lamb bag for all the experiments!


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> = why reissues are near worthless on the resale market.....


This is exactly right. Anything without a CC sells for far less. The reissues are known to be very well made too but people would prefer the classic flap because of the branding that goes with it. There are a few long time clients who prefer the history of that style etc.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> This is exactly right. Anything without a CC sells for far less. The reissues are known to be very well made too but people would prefer the classic flap because of the branding that goes with it. There are a few long time clients who prefer the history of that style etc.


And that's the glaring contradiction with it all. Reissues are some of the most well-made Chanel bags, but yet resell for maybe the least. So if I were running Chanel I would say, people don't care about quality, cuz see we have these amazing quality bags and no one wants them, we can't sell them, etc BUT here we have this plasticky piece of sh** that we make for $10, how about we just slap a big CC on it and everyone will buy it! And that's the truth. Why would they CARE about quality when they DON'T HAVE TO.


----------



## Swanky

gail13 said:


> This is exactly right. Anything without a CC sells for far less. The reissues are known to be very well made too but people would prefer the classic flap because of the branding that goes with it. There are a few long time clients who prefer the history of that style etc.



Not me! I totally prefer Reissues!  I don’t like the most obvious Classic Flaps, haven’t ever bought one.


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> Not me! I totally prefer Reussues!  I don’t like the most obvious Classic Flaps.


I am the same. I ADORE my reissues. I feel so lucky to have gotten two 227 REV's a couple of months ago b/c they just never come along.


----------



## gail13

Swanky said:


> Not me! I totally prefer Reissues!  I don’t like the most obvious Classic Flaps, haven’t ever bought one.


Yes I can see why but you are in the small group of people that love them for that reason. I am with you!


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> And that's the glaring contradiction with it all. Reissues are some of the most well-made Chanel bags, but yet resell for maybe the least. So if I were running Chanel I would say, people don't care about quality, cuz see we have these amazing quality bags and no one wants them, we can't sell them, etc BUT here we have this plasticky piece of sh** that we make for $10, how about we just slap a big CC on it and everyone will buy it! And that's the truth. Why would they CARE about quality when they DON'T HAVE TO.


One of my friends passed on a piece of RTW because it was ill fitting and it was itchy. It had a big CC on it. Her SA was shocked she was passing on it, and my friend asked her "why would I buy this, it doesn't fit and it doesn't feel nice?"  Her SA said "Because it has a big CC on it"..  It turns out there was a woman in the next fitting room over so thrilled she could get it, she started crying. My friend was pretty shocked because she felt the sweater was terrible quality.  I mean if having the logo on it is what denotes quality.....

Im only sharing what she told me, I didn't see the sweater but my friend is a pretty big RTW and bag buyer, so she knows her quality.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> Yes I can see why but you are in the small group of people that love them for that reason. I am with you!


Reissues are amazing. I wish they still made the CC version on that bag. The CC actually looks better in my opinion, although I still love the reissue. For me the closure isn’t as easy on the reissue as a CC turn lock. And the hardware closure fades much more because of the larger size. It is incredibly well made and so carefree and classy.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> One of my friends passed on a piece of RTW because it was ill fitting and it was itchy. It had a big CC on it. Her SA was shocked she was passing on it, and my friend asked her "why would I buy this, it doesn't fit and it doesn't feel nice?"  Her SA said "Because it has a big CC on it"..  It turns out there was a woman in the next fitting room over so thrilled she could get it, she started crying. My friend was pretty shocked because she felt the sweater was terrible quality.  I mean if having the logo on it is what denotes quality.....
> 
> Im only sharing what she told me, I didn't see the sweater but my friend is a pretty big RTW and bag buyer, so she knows her quality.


about 10x harder to sell pieces w/ no identifiers than the ones with some ugly logo that's for sure.


----------



## fantajisan

TraceySH said:


> And that's the glaring contradiction with it all. Reissues are some of the most well-made Chanel bags, but yet resell for maybe the least. So if I were running Chanel I would say, people don't care about quality, cuz see we have these amazing quality bags and no one wants them, we can't sell them, etc BUT here we have this plasticky piece of sh** that we make for $10, how about we just slap a big CC on it and everyone will buy it! And that's the truth. Why would they CARE about quality when they DON'T HAVE TO.


These bags are 80% flex, 20% fashion statement imo. While the quality may or may not be better than a-few-hundred-dollar bags, the difference is not that drastic to justify 10+x price tag. 
A lot of people also conflate quality with durability. They want their "investment" bags to last forever and look brand new with daily abuse (hence the popularity and resell value of Chanel caviar and LV canvas). So yes, plasticky piece of sh** with a big CC is what consumers want.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> Reissues are amazing. I wish they still made the CC version on that bag. The CC actually looks better in my opinion, although I still love the reissue. For me the closure isn’t as easy on the reissue as a CC turn lock. And the hardware closure fades much more because of the larger size. It is incredibly well made and so carefree and classy.


To my knowledge, the original 2.55 always had the turnlock, but with the leather/ metal woven chains. Later upon release of the reissue, Karl revived the flap with the turnlock but the chains were replaced with the bisioux. The classic flap, of course, always had the CC, the original & 2.55 reissue never has.


----------



## TraceySH

fantajisan said:


> These bags are 80% flex, 20% fashion statement imo. While the quality may or may not be better than a-few-hundred-dollar bags, the difference is not that drastic to justify 10+x price tag.
> A lot of people also conflate quality with durability. They want their "investment" bags to last forever and look brand new with daily abuse (hence the popularity and resell value of Chanel caviar and LV canvas). So yes, plasticky piece of sh** with a big CC is what consumers want.


Along with that sentiment, if people are buying up a storm, so much that they have put limits on purchases, it means people are NOT seeing these items as heirloom pieces. They are just fast fashion pieces people cycle through at rapid pace. So again, why on earth would they pay attention to quality when bag retention might only be a few months these days?


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> To my knowledge, the original 2.55 always had the turnlock, but with the leather/ metal woven chains. Later upon release of the reissue, Karl revived the flap with the turnlock but the chains were replaced with the bisioux. The classic flap, of course, always had the CC, the original & 2.55 reissue never has.


Yes it has. The reissue had the cc turn lock and bisioux metal strap. You can see them resold on legitimate resale sites like Fashionphile or 1stDibs and you can also search for archived photos of it online.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> Yes it has. You can see them resold on legitimate resale sites like Fashionphile or 1stDibs and you can also search for archived photos of it online.


I think you might be mistaken here. This is the original Chanel flap from 1955. The classic flap, as we know it, came along later, in the 80s I believe. Then the 2.55 was "reissued" and we had the choice of either the classic flap with the CC or the reissue (but with different chains than the original) and more demure turnlock.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> I think you might be mistaken here. This is the original Chanel flap from 1955. The classic flap, as we know it, came along later, in the 80s I believe. Then the 2.55 was "reissued" and we had the choice of either the classic flap with the CC or the reissue (but with different chains than the original) and more demure turnlock.
> 
> View attachment 5580664


I’m absolutely not mistaken.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> I think you might be mistaken here. This is the original Chanel flap from 1955. The classic flap, as we know it, came along later, in the 80s I believe. Then the 2.55 was "reissued" and we had the choice of either the classic flap with the CC or the reissue (but with different chains than the original) and more demure turnlock.
> 
> View attachment 5580664


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> View attachment 5580673


That's Karl's classic flap, not the 2.55.


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> Along with that sentiment, if people are buying up a storm, so much that they have put limits on purchases, it means people are NOT seeing these items as heirloom pieces. They are just fast fashion pieces people cycle through at rapid pace. So again, why on earth would they pay attention to quality when bag retention might only be a few months these days?


My immediate thought is to say people are not getting rid of things that fast at these prices. But as I think about it, the FB groups and online consignments are full of bags just a season or two old and people are not able to get their money back. They are onto the next thing. Some brands are constantly hyping the next it bag.  I think you are right! 

I see lots of listings where bags are being sold and the disclosures being made are issues present at the time of purchase. More and more people want to buy directly from the Boutique so that they can inspect it for flaws.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> That's Karl's classic flap, not the 2.55.


Hm. Ok so now I can’t be certain, so maybe it’s the classic flap with the bisioux chain. I feel like I’ve seen the reissue in this exact combo but now I’m not certain. Would have to search for it which I don’t have time for, especially considering the ridiculous amount of time I’ve spent on this thread, lol.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> Hm. Ok so now I can’t be certain, so maybe it’s the classic flap with the bisioux chain. I feel like I’ve seen the reissue in this exact combo but now I’m not certain. Would have to search for it which I don’t have time for, especially considering the ridiculous amount of time I’ve spent on this thread, lol.


Well, this is just sort of well known history of the classic vs 2.55. But no worries it’s a lot to keep straight. Anyway, as always appreciate your colorful and thoughtful input, but please don’t stress yourself out. I am sure there are other threads and people with woes that could use your insight. And no, I’m not being facetious. Said in earnest.


----------



## zaraha

TraceySH said:


> That's Karl's classic flap, not the 2.55.


+1 I love reissue!


----------



## fantajisan

TraceySH said:


> Along with that sentiment, if people are buying up a storm, so much that they have put limits on purchases, it means people are NOT seeing these items as heirloom pieces. They are just fast fashion pieces people cycle through at rapid pace. So again, why on earth would they pay attention to quality when bag retention might only be a few months these days?


My guess is based on their sales data 99+% of their clients are already within these new limits, and they probably make exceptions for their VVIPs who are above the threshold. However making it seem like people are buying up classic flaps like hot cakes creates even more fomo and desirability. Besides, having enough stock of plastick sh** with a big CC on the shelves (but just enough to make it seem like it was a happy coincidence that it happened to come in today) would help them lure in and capture new customers (cause we all know it won't just be the one and only bag). #conspiracytheory


----------



## TraceySH

fantajisan said:


> My guess is based on their sales data 99+% of their clients are already within these new limits, and they probably make exceptions for their VVIPs who are above the threshold. However making it seem like people are buying up classic flaps like hot cakes creates even more fomo and desirability. Besides, having enough stock of plastick sh** with a big CC on the shelves (but just enough to make it seem like it was a happy coincidence that it happened to come in today) would help them lure in and capture new customers (cause we all know it won't just be the one and only bag). #conspiracytheory


Excellent response! And yes VIC have different limits. 100%.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> .


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Along with that sentiment, if people are buying up a storm, so much that they have put limits on purchases, it means people are NOT seeing these items as heirloom pieces. They are just fast fashion pieces people cycle through at rapid pace. So again, why on earth would they pay attention to quality when bag retention might only be a few months these days?


They’ve put limits on purchases because of resellers and because they are trying to regain exclusivity. And also because merchandise from new collections were almost completely sold out at launch and there would be no merchandise for customers coming into the store. Now people can actually walk into boutiques on the day or week before launch and purchase items that would normally be reserved.

I sold a number of things in the past year after I realized I spent far too much time and money shopping at the height of the pandemic and ended up with purchases I didn’t need.

I cleared out my closet to curate what I really wanted and needed, got rid of items I thought I’d never sell, like a dark red caviar mini from 2017 in perfectly new condition that I hardly used. I soon realized certain items were selling at crazy rates and prices because no one was spending money to make up for no dining, entertainment, travel, etc. Many people were putting their money into luxury goods.

Well, life has crawled back into normalcy and people are out, dining, going to games, concerts, traveling, etc,. Now our economy is not stable, inflation is out of control, basic things like gas and groceries are so much more expensive, free government money and fraud (people taking advantage of apartment moratoriums, EDD fraud, etc) has subsided or will soon end. All these things have contributed to why things are not selling the way they were.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> They’ve put limits on purchases because of resellers and because they are trying to regain exclusivity. I think this has come on the tails of everyone on YouTube and everything in between with their bags. I’m And also because merchandise from new collections were almost completely sold out at launch and there would be no merchandise for customers coming into the store. Now people can actually walk into boutiques on the day or week before launch and purchase items that would normally be reserved.
> 
> I sold a number of things in the past year after I realized I spent far too much time and money shopping at the height of the pandemic and ended up with purchases I didn’t need.
> 
> I cleared out my closet to curate what I really wanted and needed, got rid of items I thought I’d never sell, like a dark red caviar mini from 2017 in perfectly new condition that I hardly used. I soon realized certain items were selling at crazy rates and prices because no one was spending money to make up for no dining, entertainment, travel, etc. Many people were putting their money into luxury goods.
> 
> Well, life has crawled back into normalcy and people are out, dining, going to games, traveling like crazy. Oh. And also our economy is not stable, inflation is insane, free government money and fraud (people taking advantage of apartment moratoriums, EDD fraud, etc) has subsided. All these things  have contributed to why things are not selling the way they were.


I agree with all this, plus an over saturated market, and mass production. Not just w/ Chanel. FP I’ve heard is declining and rescinding quotes even. 

Also I do know Chanel wants to get back to perks for VIC. So wiping out all non-RTW statuses & removing ability to reserve for most going forward (not to mention building separate stores just for VIC) is all apparently part of the plan. Not sure how that will go over with what you mentioned above. (Reading the room).


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Well, this is just sort of well known history of the classic vs 2.55. But no worries it’s a lot to keep straight. Anyway, as always appreciate your colorful and thoughtful input, but please don’t stress yourself out. I am sure there are other threads and people with woes that could use your insight. And no, I’m not being facetious. Said in earnest.


Haha thanks.


----------



## bags to die for

Just throwing it out there. From the chanel exhibition that was in Melbourne.


----------



## TraceySH

bags to die for said:


> Just throwing it out there. From the chanel exhibition that was in Melbourne.
> 
> View attachment 5580695
> 
> 
> View attachment 5580696
> 
> 
> View attachment 5580697


They are so beautiful. I remember Michelle Williams carrying one in the movie “all the money in the world” and was in love. I’d love to see this exhibit!


----------



## EpiFanatic

bagsaremyjam said:


> They’ve put limits on purchases because of resellers and because they are trying to regain exclusivity. And also because merchandise from new collections were almost completely sold out at launch and there would be no merchandise for customers coming into the store. Now people can actually walk into boutiques on the day or week before launch and purchase items that would normally be reserved.
> 
> I sold a number of things in the past year after I realized I spent far too much time and money shopping at the height of the pandemic and ended up with purchases I didn’t need.
> 
> I cleared out my closet to curate what I really wanted and needed, got rid of items I thought I’d never sell, like a dark red caviar mini from 2017 in perfectly new condition that I hardly used. I soon realized certain items were selling at crazy rates and prices because no one was spending money to make up for no dining, entertainment, travel, etc. Many people were putting their money into luxury goods.
> 
> Well, life has crawled back into normalcy and people are out, dining, going to games, concerts, traveling, etc,. Now our economy is not stable, inflation is out of control, basic things like gas and groceries are so much more expensive, free government money and fraud (people taking advantage of apartment moratoriums, EDD fraud, etc) has subsided or will soon end. All these things have contributed to why things are not selling the way they were.


And that makes sense. I remember when buying preloved meant getting a deal for the buyer and recouping some costs for the seller. But since demand for luxury goods went crazy, resellers started charging ridiculous prices and got paid! That’s why FP is overstocked. But this is just a 2-3 year blip. The resellers’ prices should go back down which will force people to think harder before buying since they can’t just unload it on a reseller and recoup 80-90% of their cost. Which then means we will all be keeping our bags longer and maybe this luxury market will slow down. But who knows. I couldn’t have predicted a pandemic and even if I had, I would have thought luxury goods would be the last thing people would demand.


----------



## rkuro

TraceySH said:


> I know. I know I am and have been a mouthpiece for Chanel, the good and the bad. And have always tried to be objective and tell it like it is. This might just be the last straw for me. I'm exhausted from TRYING to make them be what they used to be in my head.


 wonder what do they do with all the returns! Do they fix it then resell ?!


----------



## papertiger

TraceySH said:


> Thank you for that. I knew there was some big thing about shoes, all sorts of shoes being made for all these brands in the same place...maybe it was in the Gucci owned factories?



Most of the ladies heels (Gucci) used to be made at Sergio Rossi (also Kering owned at the time). Since 2015 they are mostly in-house. I'm not sure which other brands Gccci factories make for, but everybody's shoes are beginning to look the same anyway, and I don't think of fashion sneakers as shoes.

I actually think Chanel shoes and boots are pretty good.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

I’m really curious how many of the haters comparing a $300 bag to a Chanel actually own a Chanel bag. Or (insert another luxury brand that’s been discussed).

It’s one thing to hear constructive thoughts, strong opinions, opposing narratives, and insightful knowledge. It’s another thing to listen to people talking sh*t who sound like they don’t own any of these items being discussed. Or have the least bit of knowledge with these brands. It’s glaringly obvious in some cases.


----------



## fantajisan

bagsaremyjam said:


> I’m really curious how many of the haters comparing a $300 bag to a Chanel actually own a Chanel bag. Or (insert another luxury brand that’s been discussed).
> 
> It’s one thing to hear constructive thoughts, strong opinions, opposing narratives, and insightful knowledge. It’s another thing to listen to people talking sh*t who sound like they don’t own any of these items being discussed. Or have the least bit of knowledge with these brands. It’s glaringly obvious in some cases.



I am fortunate to own multiple Chanel bags, and then some LV, Prada, Dior, Bottega, Fendi. But let's not kid ourselves that we would lose our minds over these bags if the brand name was not attached to them.


----------



## 2cello

I have a mix of luxe and contemporary brands.  IMO, the majority of luxe bags are not matched by contemporary.  It’s the *combination* of high quality materials, construction and design that makes it luxe. With contemporary, sometimes I will find a killer design, but the material is disappointing (this happens with my Zadig & Voltaire bags, get compliments all the time but the leather is cardboard.) Or the leather is great but the bag is plain.  I think the Loewe puzzle is a great example.  Contemporary brands aren’t going to produce that combo of design and quality.  It’s too expensive for their target market.  

However, there can be a wide variety of contemporary and luxe quality imo.  Occasionally, something contemporary breaks through.  The original coach 1941 bags are up there.  The leather on the early rogues is among my favorites.  It’s very similar to Mulberry’s small classic grain. The Dinkeys were leather lined and they did interesting things with the design.  While bags I have had from Miu Miu, Givenchy, or even my seasonal Chanel, have been lackluster.  So as with most things, there are no absolutes.


----------



## Naynaykilla

Wow, quality has declined so much and prices have increased?! I am shocked.


----------



## 880

bagsaremyjam said:


> I’m really curious how many of the haters comparing a $300 bag to a Chanel actually own a Chanel bag. Or (insert another luxury brand that’s been discussed).
> 
> It’s one thing to hear constructive thoughts, strong opinions, opposing narratives, and insightful knowledge. It’s another thing to listen to people talking sh*t who sound like they don’t own any of these items being discussed. Or have the least bit of knowledge with these brands. It’s glaringly obvious in some cases.


No idea, but I was being somewhat facetious lol. I’ve worn premier designer Hermes, chanel or bottega or other bags like them for twenty plus years. Here are two older examples of my own RTW, purchased by me from 57th st from 2000A (must have ben on sale bc I started shopping at chanel RTW in 2001) and 2003spring, both labeled 100% cuir agneau and both in superb condition. These are new pics that I took and I’ve  worn and beaten this stuff to death (with a vintage — Japanese reseller Hermes clutch that I had professionally reconditioned by @docride) H metallic silver chèvre clutch for contrast. The white leather jacket is special treated to crinkle with gold metallic throughout the hide.





ETA: the white just came back from the cleaners bc my mom had borrowed it and left it somewhere in a humid room in the third world for months. It was worse for wear, but it restored beautifully. Of course the cost of cleaning and refreshing was as much as a KL bag.

ETA: pre 2008, when I switched to Hermes, I owned at least 30 chanel bags (given to me by my mom or purchased by me retail) mainly lambskin bc I was not crazy about caviar. I have only kept a few, and I’m in the minority on TPF as not seeing much diff in quality from back then and the ones I bought. My last was a calf skin in 2020. So black mini chevron reissue


----------



## ntntgo

I came back to catch up and wow did this thread take a sharp left. 
As we are already off topic, I’ll again add some context to the logo discussion. 
I want to once again clarify my comment about my mom modeling for Chanel. To be clear, 1.) There were no “runways”. Women were posed on individual elevated platforms or they posed as a group and 2.) She modeled for many designers (I’m using the word designer as a person who designs.) Some ”design houses” are still around, some are well known and some aren’t or are gone all together. I wanted to get that out of the way. 
There is what my mom called CBK (Chanel before Karl) when the CC logo was on haute couture and on the inside flap of the 2.55 and CAK. When Karl took over after the passing of Coco, he did something that was very smart that expanded Chanel from a true fashion house to an actual brand. First, he removed the CC logo from any haute couture and ONLY put it on RTW as he knew that once that logo was slapped all over everything, those who bought haute couture would no longer buy it and by using it all over pret-a-porter (RTW) it became available to everyone. 
in the 80’s somewhere, is when he started using it as the turn lock on bags. The rest is history.  Not HERstory (her being Coco). It changed the brand forever. I’d like to believe that it got away from him as the Wertheimer’s greed got the best of him. Also, please keep in mind that Coco sued Pierre Wertheimer to get her company back as he was originally brought in to the perfume business and she felt that he began to exploit her name. 
My apologies to the OP for my interjection of OT history. 
I’ll close with this, the original Chanel handbag looked more like what we know as the Hermes Kelly before Coco got sick of carrying a handheld bag. The 2.55 was (I know I’m going to likely lambasted for this but facts are facts) based off of the military bags that the SS soldiers carried. Keep in mind the herstory of Coco & the SS. 
Also, to OP’s point about Chanel not being a French company, she is correct. The Wertheimers came to the US in the 1940s as they were Jewish & the business holdings are in fact located in the UK. 
Thank you for allowing me to interject my completely OT history posts. I just wanted to highlight that the names thrown out in this thread are not fashion houses anymore. They are brands being brilliantly marketed to new money. 
Thank you for allowing me to momentarily hijack your thread OP.



880 said:


> No idea, but I was being somewhat facetious lol. I’ve worn premier designer Hermes, chanel or bottega or other bags like them for twenty plus years. Here are two older examples of my own RTW, purchased by me from 57th st from 2000A (must have ben on sale bc I started shopping at chanel RTW in 2001) and 2003spring, both labeled 100% cuir agneau and both in superb condition. These are new pics that I took and I’ve  worn and beaten this stuff to death (with a vintage — Japanese reseller Hermes clutch that I had professionally reconditioned by @docride) H metallic silver chèvre clutch for contrast. The white leather jacket is special treated to crinkle with gold metallic throughout the hide.
> 
> View attachment 5580771
> View attachment 5580772
> View attachment 5580773
> 
> ETA: the white just came back from the cleaners bc my mom had borrowed it and left it somewhere in a humid room in the third world for months. It was worse for wear, but it restored beautifully. Of course the cost of cleaning and refreshing was as much as a KL bag.
> 
> ETA: pre 2008, when I switched to Hermes, I owned at least 30 chanel bags (given to me by my mom or purchased by me retail) mainly lambskin bc I was not crazy about caviar. I have only kept a few, and I’m in the minority on TPF as not seeing much diff in quality from back then and the ones I bought. My last was a calf skin in 2020. So black mini chevron reissue


Totally OT, I’ve been looking for glasses that shape. Most I’ve found are either Dita or Saint Laurent. Do you mind me asking who makes those? They’re fabulous.



zaraha said:


> @ntntgo I highly respect and value  members like you for your input, participation and able to learn more about chanel!
> I would love to see those modeling shots of your mom during 50’s (only if it doesn’t compromise your privacy)  I’m sure chanel was at different place back in 50’s “Grand Return” and I wish we can travel back in time.  But I think we are all honored to have you back on this forum!
> Pic captured from book “ Vocabulary of style”  chanel salon, Paris July 1962
> 
> View attachment 5580629


I have no concerns about my privacy here. Most people who have been on here a long time know my name anyway. I use the same @ntntgo on all of my social media. Ironically enough, this is where it started.
However, my mom passed a couple of years ago and I won’t post her personal photos on a public forum. If we’re FB friends or you’re on my IG, I posted some of her modeling photos (not just Chanel) on my personal pages when she passed. They are viewable there and I’m pretty sure there are a handful of OGs in this convo that I am friends with.
My apologies if we are but I’ve been off TPF for years as a regular and have long since forgotten most of the TPF names of people who I became real life friends with.
ETA: My mom never wanted to be known as a model. She wanted to be known as a pioneering hematologist and after she retired, just a mom and wife. She hated when I told people about her modeling. But, it’s not my pride in her modeling for top fashion houses. It’s pride that at 16 years old she went out on her own and worked her way through college & medical school without a dime from her family.


----------



## mzbaglady1

ntntgo said:


> I came back to catch up and wow did this thread take a sharp left.
> As we are already off topic, I’ll again add some context to the logo discussion.
> I want to once again clarify my comment about my mom modeling for Chanel. To be clear, 1.) There were no “runways”. Women were posed on individual elevated platforms or they posed as a group and 2.) She modeled for many designers (I’m using the word designer as a person who designs.) Some ”design houses” are still around, some are well known and some aren’t or are gone all together. I wanted to get that out of the way.
> There is what my mom called CBK (Chanel before Karl) when the CC logo was on haute couture and on the inside flap of the 2.55 and CAK. When Karl took over after the passing of Coco, he did something that was very smart that expanded Chanel from a true fashion house to an actual brand. First, he removed the CC logo from any haute couture and ONLY put it on RTW as he knew that once that logo was slapped all over everything, those who bought haute couture would no longer buy it and by using it all over pret-a-porter (RTW) it became available to everyone.
> in the 80’s somewhere, is when he started using it as the turn lock on bags. The rest is history.  Not HERstory (her being Coco). It changed the brand forever. I’d like to believe that it got away from him as the Wertheimer’s greed got the best of him. Also, please keep in mind that Coco sued Pierre Wertheimer to get her company back as he was originally brought in to the perfume business and she felt that he began to exploit her name.
> My apologies to the OP for my interjection of OT history.
> I’ll close with this, the original Chanel handbag looked more like what we know as the Hermes Kelly before Coco got sick of carrying a handheld bag. The 2.55 was (I know I’m going to likely lambasted for this but facts are facts) based off of the military bags that the SS soldiers carried. Keep in mind the herstory of Coco & the SS.
> Also, to OP’s point about Chanel not being a French company, she is correct. The Wertheimers came to the US in the 1940s as they were Jewish & the business holdings are in fact located in the UK.
> Thank you for allowing me to interject my completely OT history posts. I just wanted to highlight that the names thrown out in this thread are not fashion houses anymore. They are brands being brilliantly marketed to new money.
> Thank you for allowing me to momentarily hijack your thread OP.


Thank you for your information that you provided to this thread. My questions was answered by your post. So heavy logo rtw was this under Karl Lagerfeld also? And was this done to attract a younger client base? I'm just noticing this trend with Chanel within the last couple of years and I do not recall this trend maybe ten to fifteen years ago.


----------



## JamaisAssez

mzbaglady1 said:


> So heavy logo rtw was this under Karl Lagerfeld also?


Logo heavy RTW was *solely introduced* by Lagerfeld. According to Vogue he created the CC logo.









						How Karl Lagerfeld Reinvented Chanel—and the Role of the Creative Director on Today’s ‘In Vogue: The 1990s’ Episode
					

In the 1990s the multitasking designer Karl Lagerfeld transformed the house of Chanel, the industry, and himself.




					www.vogue.com
				











						Everyday Things Karl Lagerfeld Has Put the Chanel Logo On
					

Beach balls, life preservers, flasks — the works.




					www.thecut.com


----------



## ntntgo

mzbaglady1 said:


> Thank you for your information that you provided to this thread. My questions was answered by your post. So heavy logo rtw was this under Karl Lagerfeld also? And was this done to attract a younger client base? I'm just noticing this trend with Chanel within the last couple of years and I do not recall this trend maybe ten to fifteen years ago.


Karl moved it from haute couture to RTW pretty close to his first collection after Coco died. I’m not exactly sure of the year. However, it has gotten 1000 times worse since Virginie took over. 
Unfortunately, Virginie doesn‘t have a lot of creative ideas without Karl as her leader so she falls back on the logo. Not that Karl didn’t have his moments of over using the logo as the Wertheimers started preparing the brand to be sold to one of the conglomerates. It just so happened that a pandemic came around and Chanel had its most profitable years. Hence their withdrawing $1.3 billion out of the company recently. It is still very likely that the company will be sold as they are the one house that chose not to participate in the co-creation of the supply chain software. That tells me that they are looking to look as profitable as possible. 
The Wertheimers are not a fashion family, they are venture capitalists which is how Pierre got into business with Coco to begin with. Had she not needed the money beyond the Chanel Perfume Company Ltd after she had been exiled to Switzerland and wanted to go back to France to relaunch the clothing line, she wouldn’t have gone back into business with them. 
Doesn‘t anyone here notice that Virginie’s bags are mostly, if not all, poor redesigns of Karl’s bags? I’m focusing on bags because I realized that I went too far off topic of bags, which is what OP’s original post was. 
The 22 is a terrible redesign using garbage material of the original BonBon (trying to stay on topic). 
Coco, regardless of her SS association, tried to keep the house elevated, hence only using the logo on haute couture and the interior flap of the 2.55. 
Now, as they try to re-elevate the brand, as VCs do, they raise the price without spending the $ for the quality to be on par in hopes to continue to increase profits.  As long as people buy the product, yep I said “product” as they continue to raise prices as they cut costs, they’ll hold on to the company. As soon as they can dump it without it hurting their other profitable VC investments, they’ll be back to entertaining negotiations with the LVMHs, Richemonts or Kerings. Richemont was the closest before COVID hit but they moved on to other brands like Delvaux, which they purchased in 2021 or early 2022 I believe. 
I hope that answers your question. I’m happy to try to answer anyone’s questions or engage in any discussions as long as they are mutually respectful.


----------



## ntntgo

JamaisAssez said:


> Logo heavy RTW was *solely introduced* by Lagerfeld. According to Vogue he created the CC logo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Karl Lagerfeld Reinvented Chanel—and the Role of the Creative Director on Today’s ‘In Vogue: The 1990s’ Episode
> 
> 
> In the 1990s the multitasking designer Karl Lagerfeld transformed the house of Chanel, the industry, and himself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vogue.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyday Things Karl Lagerfeld Has Put the Chanel Logo On
> 
> 
> Beach balls, life preservers, flasks — the works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thecut.com


Hi.  I respectfully disagree. The CC logo was a Coco design. Karl was the first to move it from haute couture to pret-a-porter & leather.


----------



## Tyler_JP

Yeah... I definitely think Coco would have hated Karl.


----------



## ntntgo

bagsaremyjam said:


> I’m really curious how many of the haters comparing a $300 bag to a Chanel actually own a Chanel bag. Or (insert another luxury brand that’s been discussed).
> 
> It’s one thing to hear constructive thoughts, strong opinions, opposing narratives, and insightful knowledge. It’s another thing to listen to people talking sh*t who sound like they don’t own any of these items being discussed. Or have the least bit of knowledge with these brands. It’s glaringly obvious in some cases.


Hi. Can you define what your definition of haters is please? I think it’s important to respect everyone’s opinion, regardless whether we agree with it or not. What is not disputable is facts. They are only correctable if someone makes an incorrect statement. 
I am asking because I don’t know if you see me or other people on here with differing opinions as haters. 
Thanks in advance for clarifying.


----------



## ntntgo

Tyler_JP said:


> Yeah... I definitely think Coco would have hated Karl.


I respectfully disagree. She loved him. She would have hated the lowering of status with the logo becoming exponentially available To the masses.


----------



## gail13

ntntgo said:


> I respectfully disagree. She loved him. She would have hated the lowering of status with the logo becoming exponentially available To the masses.


I thought the 22 bag would have been so much nicer without the gold letters which IMO cheapen the look. The Bon Bon had beautiful understated logo stitching. I don't think Karl would have used those letters either.


----------



## waterlily112

gail13 said:


> I thought the 22 bag would have been so much nicer without the gold letters which IMO cheapen the look.


Can't agreed more. I don't hate the cinch style but it was the shiny leather that gives off the garbage bag vibe and the glued on letters that make me say hard pass. hahaha...Had they use the stitch on puffy CC logo like the GST would've been way better imo.


----------



## ntntgo

waterlily112 said:


> Can't agreed more. I don't hate the cinch style but it was the shiny leather that gives off the garbage bag vibe and the glued on letters that make me say hard pass. hahaha...Had they use the stitch on puffy CC logo like the GST would've been way better imo.


Oh do I miss the GST. I have one regular size left in the rare elephant grey color and I have the maxi in black that used to be my laptop bag. They both need a spa treatment though.
I have the original black & burgundy Bon Bon and you can tell how good the quality is because the patent is still in great shape. The black is cinched and the burgundy isn’t. That’s why they look different. 
Edited to include pics. Please excuse my messy office. It’s my packing to travel room.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

fantajisan said:


> I am fortunate to own multiple Chanel bags, and then some LV, Prada, Dior, Bottega, Fendi. But let's not kid ourselves that we would lose our minds over these bags if the brand name was not attached to them.


I understand what you’re saying. But it’s also delusional to compare it to a fast fashion bag. That’s a fact.


----------



## 880

ntntgo said:


> Totally OT, I’ve been looking for glasses that shape. Most I’ve found are either Dita or Saint Laurent. Do you mind me asking who makes those? They’re fabulous.


Thanks so much. I have bought all of my prescription glasses and sunglasses from Morganthal Frederic’s, I think since the 1990s. These are horn, but I also have them in plastic. It’s my personal opinion opinion that the best fitter and judge of shape and size is a particular individual in one of the locations. If you have what is termed as an Asian bridge, there are models that suit, and also you are able to request customised fit. The website only has a fraction of the frame they carry, and they also have exclusives from Germany (formerly a company called Golden Wood), France, and elsewhere. as a side note, valextra makes a universal sunglass case (exposed temples) that fit over sized glasses. Pls feel free to pm for more info if you need any.  During Covid SIP, they continued to fit clients via zoom, and they are amazing. 






						Morgenthal Frederics
					

The World's Finest Eyewear




					morgenthalfrederics.com
				











						Smokey Blue Leather Glasses Case | Valextra
					

Discover the elegant design of the Smokey Blue Leather Glasses Case by Valextra. Shop for accessories ideal for day and evening outfits on the official website.




					www.valextra.com


----------



## ntntgo

bagsaremyjam said:


> I understand what you’re saying. But it’s also delusional to compare it to a fast fashion bag. That’s a fact.


The person you replied to is fairly new to TPF according to her profile. I think it’s not only disrespectful but since you’ve already stated multiple times that you work in fashion, which means you’re not a mental healthcare professional, you neither have the education to diagnose someone as “delusional” but, it’s just plain mean. 
Please rephrase and repost in a more respectful way to get your point across.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

Some of the haters I’m referring to are the ones who are quick to make the reference of a designer brand to fast fashion and $200-$300 bags, who do not speak of specifics about their ownership of said designer items. No matter how many TPF’ers have issues with Chanel or other designer brands, I think most who own enough wouldn’t flippantly call their items pieces of sh*t and say it’s comparable to fast fashion. Many of those flippantly throwing around those terms speak volumes on their lack of experience.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

ntntgo said:


> The person you replied to is fairly new to TPF according to her profile. I think it’s not only disrespectful but since you’ve already stated multiple times that you work in fashion, which means you’re not a mental healthcare professional, you neither have the education to diagnose someone as “delusional” but, it’s just plain mean.
> Please rephrase and repost in a more respectful way to get your point across.


I never referred to this person and her personality as delusional. I referred to her statement comparing fast fashion as being comparative to designer brands as being delusional. There’s a huge difference. I think you referring to mental health and me being mean is taking this way out of context.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> I never referred to this person and her personality as delusional. I referred to her statement comparing fast fashion as being comparative to designer brands as being delusional. There’s a huge difference. I think you referring to mental health and me being mean is taking this way out of context.


Ok to clarify here I didn’t see anyone comparing Chanel to fast fashion, I saw a comparison to contemporary designers, many of whose leather accessories are more expensive than luxury brands like mulberry, Burberry, Chloe, Tod’s etc. There’s definitely some price overlap these days.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Ok to clarify here I didn’t see anyone comparing Chanel to fast fashion, I saw a comparison to contemporary designers, many of whose leather accessories are more expensive than luxury brands like mulberry, Burberry, Chloe, Tod’s etc. There’s definitely some price overlap these days.


There’s definitely people who are comparing Chanel to fast fashion and bags priced at a few hundred dollars. You have to go back and reread through it. It can get lost with the amount of responses.


----------



## gail13

As this thread was started with a picture of a bag that appears to be bonded leather peeling after two short wears, and references the short comings on the 22 bag experiencing the same issues, lets focus on that.  This is not the first time we are hearing of these issues, the peeling issues go back quite a few years. How is this 'quality'?

Yes, luxury, we all think luxury should mean better quality. You can research it anyway you want, but look it up, most luxury items from cars to bags are never proven to be 'better'. They are more exclusive yes and they are are way more costly. Cost is one of the main reasons luxury appeals to people. People feel better apparently the more they spend on items. I'm in the Chanel stores every month, and I have a large roster of SAs I converse with whom are close friends after years of buying. Hearing them talk on the subject has also opened my eyes. When is the last time you were sold a handbag because a SA or CA told you it was quality or so well designed you couldn't live without it?

Ive been buying bags for forty years plus and have been swayed by the luxury sector many times. I too have worked in the industry and to tell me my opinion is wrong is an opinion you are welcome to voice, but I'm certainly not ignorant or delusional.  I have bought bags everywhere from actual designers in their studio's, to the smaller stores in Italy, to department stores and also Chanel, Hermes, LV etc. I do love my designers like many of us here. But I don't understand what we are buying into at a time when we think we are paying for hand crafting, luxurious leather, and rare materials, when in fact its anything but.

And Im going to stand by my opinion that a few Premier designers are LIKE Fast Fashion in that they are  changing it up often,  with a big price tag, and that there are some contemporary designers that would out perform their quality side by side. Because the contemporary designers are more easily accessed they are not as desirable and they do appeal to a different market.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> As this thread was started with a picture of a bag that appears to be bonded leather peeling after two short wears, and references the short comings on the 22 bag experiencing the same issues, lets focus on that.  This is not the first time we are hearing of these issues, the peeling issues go back quite a few years. How is this 'quality'?
> 
> Yes, luxury we all think luxury should mean better quality. You can research it anyway you want, but look it up, most luxury items from cars to bags are never proven to be 'better'. They are more exclusive yes and they are are way more costly. Cost is one of the main reasons luxury appeals to people. People feel better apparently the more they spend on items. I'm in the Chanel stores every month, and I have a large roster of SAs in converse with whom are close friends after years of buying. Hearing them talk on the subject has also opened my eyes. When is the last time you were sold a handbag because a SA or CA told you it was quality or so well designed you couldn't live without it?
> 
> Ive been buying bags for forty years plus and have been swayed by the luxury sector many times. I too have worked in the industry and to tell me my opinion is wrong is an opinion you are welcome to voice, but I'm certainly not ignorant or delusional.  I have bought bags everywhere from actual designers in their studio's, to the smaller stores in Italy, to department stores and also Chanel, Hermes, LV etc. I do love my designers like many of us here. But I don't understand what we are buying into in a time when we think we are paying for hand crafting, luxurious leather, and rare materials, when in fact its anything but.
> 
> And Im going to stand by my opinion that a few Premier designers are LIKE Fast Fashion in that they are  changing it up often,  with a big price tag, and that there are some contemporary designers that would out perform their quality side by side. Because the contemporary designers are more easily accessed they are not as desirable and they do appeal to a different market.


This is going to go even more out there OT, but we haven’t even taken into consideration that super fakes are now, in many instances, much better quality than the authentic items. One of the ways authenticators are differentiating counterfeit from authentic is that the counterfeit are exceptional quality. So there’s another mind blowing tangent. “If it’s too good, it’s not authentic”. Not in every instance, but this is a common topic nowadays in sellers forums.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> As this thread was started with a picture of a bag that appears to be bonded leather peeling after two short wears, and references the short comings on the 22 bag experiencing the same issues, lets focus on that.  This is not the first time we are hearing of these issues, the peeling issues go back quite a few years. How is this 'quality'?
> 
> Yes, luxury we all think luxury should mean better quality. You can research it anyway you want, but look it up, most luxury items from cars to bags are never proven to be 'better'. They are more exclusive yes and they are are way more costly. Cost is one of the main reasons luxury appeals to people. People feel better apparently the more they spend on items. I'm in the Chanel stores every month, and I have a large roster of SAs in converse with whom are close friends after years of buying. Hearing them talk on the subject has also opened my eyes. When is the last time you were sold a handbag because a SA or CA told you it was quality or so well designed you couldn't live without it?
> 
> Ive been buying bags for forty years plus and have been swayed by the luxury sector many times. I too have worked in the industry and to tell me my opinion is wrong is an opinion you are welcome to voice, but I'm certainly not ignorant or delusional.  I have bought bags everywhere from actual designers in their studio's, to the smaller stores in Italy, to department stores and also Chanel, Hermes, LV etc. I do love my designers like many of us here. But I don't understand what we are buying into in a time when we think we are paying for hand crafting, luxurious leather, and rare materials, when in fact its anything but.
> 
> And Im going to stand by my opinion that a few Premier designers are Fast Fashion with a big price tag, and that there are some contemporary designers that would out perform their quality side by side. Because the contemporary designers are more easily accessed they are not as desirable and they do appeal to a different market.


You’re referring to one bag or two bags that clearly have an issue. As someone who’s been buying Chanel for over 15 years, and as a TPF member for over half my life, I’ve never seen or heard anything like this. So you’re going to instantly dismiss a brand as fast fashion who has been around for over 100 years because of this current problem? I think the fact that many think that no company can ever make a mistake is unrealistic.

And I won’t go on with how I feel about luxury fashion or bags as I’ve overstated my opinions. But in reference to cars, sure, a Prius can get me around from Point A to B. It does it’s job. But to say it’s equal to my Volvo SUV is inaccurate. I know what I’m paying for with a luxury vehicle - I see it every day in the materials and handling of the car, the features, etc. Driving a Prius feels like I’m driving a toy car in comparison.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> This is going to go even more out there OT, but we haven’t even taken into consideration that super fakes are now, in many instances, much better quality than the authentic items. One of the ways authenticators are differentiating counterfeit from authentic is that the counterfeit are exceptional quality. So there’s another mind blowing tangent. “If it’s too good, it’s not authentic”. Not in every instance, but this is a common topic nowadays in sellers forums.


Saying super fakes are better than authentic items is laughable. Judging from photos alone do not count as they’re very deceptive. I’ve never seen a fake in person and thought, wow, that looks so close to the real thing. In person there are so many details a seasoned luxury bag owner can spot, especially with specific bags.


----------



## TPFer2015

TraceySH said:


> I have some of both/ 4 goat, 6 lamb?


Gosh, this may not be the right thread for it but I kinda want to see a family pic!


----------



## TraceySH

TPFer2015 said:


> Gosh, this may not be the right thread for it but I kinda want to see a family pic!


They are scattered across 3 homes!!! I don’t have everything in one place


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> Saying super fakes are better than authentic items is laughable. Judging from photos alone do not count as they’re very deceptive. I’ve never seen a fake in person and thought, wow, that looks so close to the real thing. In person there are so many details a seasoned luxury bag owner can spot, especially with specific bags.


I would say for sure then you might get up to speed on this. When this topic is covered by some of the largest buyers and authenticators in the world, dare I say they might have more expertise than you.  Or maybe they could use your help with their professional deficiencies?


----------



## ntntgo

bagsaremyjam said:


> You’re referring to one bag or two bags that clearly have an issue. As someone who’s been buying Chanel for over 10 years, and as a TPF member for over half my life, I’ve never seen or heard anything like this. So you’re going to instantly dismiss a brand as fast fashion who has been around for over 100 years because of this current problem? I think the fact that many think that no company can ever make a mistake is unrealistic.
> 
> And I won’t go on with how I feel about luxury fashion or bags. But in reference to cars, sure, a Prius can get me around from Point A to B. It does it’s job. But to say it’s equal to my Volvo SUV is inaccurate. I know what I’m paying for with a luxury vehicle - I see it every day in the materials and handling of the car, the features, etc. It’s a similar comparison to everything that’s been discussed here.


Ok. So I don’t consider Volvo a luxury car but my husband‘s backup car is a Volvo and it’s just fine. So I can respectfully agree to disagree.


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> You’re referring to one bag or two bags that clearly have an issue. As someone who’s been buying Chanel for over 15 years, and as a TPF member for over half my life, I’ve never seen or heard anything like this. So you’re going to instantly dismiss a brand as fast fashion who has been around for over 100 years because of this current problem? I think the fact that many think that no company can ever make a mistake is unrealistic.
> 
> And I won’t go on with how I feel about luxury fashion or bags as I’ve overstated my opinions. But in reference to cars, sure, a Prius can get me around from Point A to B. It does it’s job. But to say it’s equal to my Volvo SUV is inaccurate. I know what I’m paying for with a luxury vehicle - I see it every day in the materials and handling of the car, the features, etc. Driving a Prius feels like I’m driving a toy car in comparison.


I would say I’ve had over the years about 40-45 severely defective Chanel bags… so about 7%?


----------



## gail13

bagsaremyjam said:


> You’re referring to one bag or two bags that clearly have an issue. As someone who’s been buying Chanel for over 15 years, and as a TPF member for over half my life, I’ve never seen or heard anything like this. So you’re going to instantly dismiss a brand as fast fashion who has been around for over 100 years because of this current problem? I think the fact that many think that no company can ever make a mistake is unrealistic.
> 
> And I won’t go on with how I feel about luxury fashion or bags as I’ve overstated my opinions. But in reference to cars, sure, a Prius can get me around from Point A to B. It does it’s job. But to say it’s equal to my Volvo SUV is inaccurate. I know what I’m paying for with a luxury vehicle - I see it every day in the materials and handling of the car, the features, etc. Driving a Prius feels like I’m driving a toy car in comparison.


Not dismissing the brand entirely as I love their vintage and older season bags. Something took a wrong turn a few years ago. I continue to look at items, and thought about buying the new 22 but changed my mind after confirming with my SA what it was made of etc. I do hope they get things together, I miss the quality I used to see in the 2008 -15 timeframe.


----------



## Swanky

880 said:


> ETA: pre 2008, when I switched to Hermes, I owned at least 30 chanel bags (given to me by my mom or purchased by me retail) *mainly lambskin bc I was not crazy about caviar. I have only kept a few, and I’m in the minority on TPF as not seeing much diff in quality from back then and the ones I bought*. My last was a calf skin in 2020. So black mini chevron reissue



I'm right there with you! I prefer lamb all day and I have had no quality issues in any of mine; I've been buying since about 2003. 
I've bought 5 in the last 3 months, they're all delicious in my opinion, which is the only one that matters to me lol


----------



## 880

Swanky said:


> I'm right there with you! I prefer lamb all day and I have had no quality issues in any of mine; I've been buying since about 2003.
> I've bought 5 in the last 3 months, they're all delicious in my opinion, which is the only one that matters to me lol


We are apparently the tiniest minority on TPF currently  I did stop from 2008-2020 bc of the Hermes rabbit hole 
its kind of like mini skirts. I thought I was over them, and chanel too. . . And yet here we are 

I did think the chanel 19 tote looked quite nice (it was sitting next to a small pile of RTW. When I lifted it up (my SA was like, why are you handling it like it’s about to break lol ) I did not tell her about this thread.

ETA: I have always preferred reissues, seasonals, and cute fun things that don’t hold value    But, it’s never occurred to me to examine several or even one so closely, in fact my dior SA burst out laughing bc I told him once I don’t mind a display model or one without protective blah, blah, bc I feel sorry for those bags

@gail13 , re your comment below re a member who went through six, I think you are very sweet. But, if someone cannot find one out of six, perhaps the brand cannot adequately service her needs or expectations. (I told her my opinion on that thread).


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> Not dismissing the brand entirely as I love their vintage and older season bags. Something took a wrong turn a few years ago. I continue to look at items, and thought about buying the new 22 but changed my mind after confirming with my SA what it was made of etc. I do hope they get things together, I miss the quality I used to see in the 2008 -15 timeframe.


You’re definitely entitled to your opinion. The last few years I’ve purchased a Cocodile Gabrielle, mini caviar with top handle, a few backpacks, a couple 19’s in goatskin, a seasonal flap, a WOC. All are incredibly well made and I didn’t have to look through several (meaning more than 2 to 3), often not even having a choice to choose, which is drastically different from my experience purchasing 5 years ago. I have also heard SA’s and influencers talking about noticeable quality with these bags as well.

I’ve seen vintage Chanel bags made incredibly well, and I’ve also seen some with cheap interior linings that many of us would never find acceptable today.

We all have different experiences but I’ve actually noticed improved quality with many bags.


----------



## gail13

Swanky said:


> I'm right there with you! I prefer lamb all day and I have had no quality issues in any of mine; I've been buying since about 2006.
> I've bought 5 in the last 3 months, they're all delicious in my opinion, which is the only one that matters to me lol


Thats good! Most of the quality issues I have seen are on the seasonal bags. I do not agree with counting the stitches and examining bags under 8x magnification.Nothing is going to be perfect. 

I know there is a thread on this forum from a member who bought a new classic flap and the inside was pretty badly scuffed/scratched and the SA's dismissed her as being too picky really. It was maybe the 6th bag? she had tried to find for herself and I know she is frustrated. I felt badly for her, it should not be hard to find a 'good one'.


----------



## TraceySH

880 said:


> We are apparently the tiniest minority on TPF currently  I did stop from 2008-2020 bc of the Hermes rabbit hole


I stopped buying lamb classics  after a beautiful pink jumbo arrived to me molded last year.  Straight from boutique and current season.


----------



## TPFer2015

TraceySH said:


> I stopped buying lamb classics  after a beautiful pink jumbo arrived to me molded last year.  Straight from boutique and current season.


Sorry, how do you mean by molded?


----------



## TraceySH

TPFer2015 said:


> Sorry, how do you mean by molded?


Turning brown under the quilts all over the bag.


----------



## Swanky

I would've returned that for sure, obviously.  But unless it was a pattern of it happening I'd buy again.


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> I would've returned that for sure, obviously.  But unless it was a pattern of it happening I'd buy again.


Which is what I did. Of course haha. But I wanted that one so badly! My SA didn’t tell me until after it was returned that Chanel had identified them all as defective. I guess they want to see who will keep them first. It was an odd sort of “wet”.


----------



## TPFer2015

TraceySH said:


> Turning brown under the quilts all over the bag.


You have got to be kidding me!!


----------



## zaraha

@TraceySH Dare I say we may have invited PR from chanel working undercover. Just like the quality of  19 or 22 bags, quality of customer service also low.


----------



## Swanky

TraceySH said:


> Which is what I did. Of course haha. But I wanted that one so badly! My SA didn’t tell me until after it was returned that Chanel had identified them all as defective. I guess they want to see who will keep them first. It was an odd sort of “wet”.


Ahh when you said you stopped buying lamb classic it seemed like, well. . . you no longer would buy lamb classics lol. 
I was saying I'd still buy, unless I found it happened to me again.


----------



## gail13

zaraha said:


> @TraceySH Dare I say we may have invited PR from chanel working undercover. Just like the quality of  19 or 22 bags, quality of customer service also low.


Its so true. True customer service is so far and few between. I know some of it is staffing issues, and I never blame my SA's. I know they barely have time to use the restroom or eat a meal. Ever since Chanel started taking appointments and not allowing people in to browse, its been very different. They are so backed up with appointments that they have no time to do anything else.


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> Ahh when you said you stopped buying lamb classic it seemed like, well. . . you no longer would buy lamb classics lol.
> I was saying I'd still buy, unless I found it happened to me again.


Oh I kept buying Chanel just not lamb classics. That was my last.


----------



## Coach Superfan

TraceySH said:


> Well an interesting question for this, or quagmire rather, might be, *is a luxury brand still a luxury brand when it's owned by a contemporary brand*? I mean, if perception & heritage is everything, doesn't some of that abate after such an acquisition?





2cello said:


> I have a mix of luxe and contemporary brands.  IMO,* the majority of luxe bags are not matched by contemporary.  It’s the *combination* of high quality materials, construction and design that makes it luxe. *With contemporary, sometimes I will find a killer design, but the material is disappointing (this happens with my Zadig & Voltaire bags, get compliments all the time but the leather is cardboard.) Or the leather is great but the bag is plain.  I think the Loewe puzzle is a great example.  Contemporary brands aren’t going to produce that combo of design and quality.  It’s too expensive for their target market.
> 
> *However, there can be a wide variety of contemporary and luxe quality imo.*  Occasionally, something contemporary breaks through.  The original coach 1941 bags are up there.  The leather on the early rogues is among my favorites.  It’s very similar to Mulberry’s small classic grain. The Dinkeys were leather lined and they did interesting things with the design.  While bags I have had from Miu Miu, Givenchy, or even my seasonal Chanel, have been lackluster.  So as with most things, there are no absolutes.


Ok so one thing that comes to mind when I read both of these comments is the Marc Jacobs Collection handbags back when it was considered a "Premier" designer here on TPF.... like 2006-2010ish. There was also his lower contemporary Marc by Marc Jacobs line that I am not referring to here. He was producing his MJ Collection while the creative director at LV (hence the similarities in some designs like the LV Alma vs. MJ Elise.. and the MJ Venetia has an LV twin that I can't recall). It wasn't until like 2013 that he left LV to focus on his own line, which ironically hasn't been as successful as his earlier Collection bags (IMO). Since then quality and design have gone downhill. I'd have to argue that the quality of his MJ Collection bags with the iconic pushlock pocket closures, 100% calfskin, and interior suede lining were made with waaaaay better quality than the 22 and 19 tote (disclaimer: I have not examined either IRL). I also don't recall frequent QC issues on MJ Collection bags the way we've seen throughout the Chanel forum. No, I do not consider the MJ Collection bags to be "luxe" but I think this is a pretty good example of higher quality contemporary brands vs. the current quality of some Chanel bags, yet at the same time these MJ classics have not retained their RV.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> Thats good! Most of the quality issues I have seen are on the seasonal bags. I do not agree with counting the stitches and examining bags under 8x magnification.Nothing is going to be perfect.
> 
> I know there is a thread on this forum from a member who bought a new classic flap and the inside was pretty badly scuffed/scratched and the SA's dismissed her as being too picky really. It was maybe the 6th bag? she had tried to find for herself and I know she is frustrated. I felt badly for her, it should not be hard to find a 'good one'.


Those are the worst kind of SA’s. The ones who dismiss noticeable damage from being handled too much. They have retail osmosis. 

To be fair, there are people who are sooo intense with their purchases that feel like a extra thread that wasn’t cut short enough that’s slightly peeking out is a problem. In some of these threads I wonder how someone is really asking if there is a defect on their bag when there clearly isn’t. 

I do understand that when spending these prices you have to get what you love, and I fall on the extreme on being particular but there are also many that blow me out of the water in that category, lol. Sometimes someone going through 6 bags doesn’t necessarily equate to quality issues as much as they’re on the hunt for a specific looking sheen on the leather, etc. Classic flaps are generally made incredibly well, but can look very different from bag to bag, especially with the caviar leather, puffiness of quilting, etc.


----------



## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> @TraceySH Dare I say we may have invited PR from chanel working undercover. Just like the quality of  19 or 22 bags, quality of customer service also low.


Are you saying we’ve been infiltrated?


----------



## gail13

2cello said:


> I have a mix of luxe and contemporary brands.  IMO, the majority of luxe bags are not matched by contemporary.  It’s the *combination* of high quality materials, construction and design that makes it luxe. With contemporary, sometimes I will find a killer design, but the material is disappointing (this happens with my Zadig & Voltaire bags, get compliments all the time but the leather is cardboard.) Or the leather is great but the bag is plain.  I think the Loewe puzzle is a great example.  Contemporary brands aren’t going to produce that combo of design and quality.  It’s too expensive for their target market.
> 
> However, there can be a wide variety of contemporary and luxe quality imo.  Occasionally, something contemporary breaks through.  The original coach 1941 bags are up there.  The leather on the early rogues is among my favorites.  It’s very similar to Mulberry’s small classic grain. The Dinkeys were leather lined and they did interesting things with the design.  While bags I have had from Miu Miu, Givenchy, or even my seasonal Chanel, have been lackluster.  So as with most things, there are no absolutes.


Another thread topic!


----------



## bagsaremyjam

Coach Superfan said:


> Ok so one thing that comes to mind when I read both of these comments is the Marc Jacobs Collection handbags back when it was considered a "Premier" designer here on TPF.... like 2006-2010ish. There was also his lower contemporary Marc by Marc Jacobs line that I am not referring to here. He was producing his MJ Collection while the creative director at LV (hence the similarities in some designs like the LV Alma vs. MJ Elise.. and the MJ Venetia has an LV twin that I can't recall). It wasn't until like 2013 that he left LV to focus on his own line, which ironically hasn't been as successful as his earlier Collection bags (IMO). Since then quality and design have gone downhill. I'd have to argue that the quality of his MJ Collection bags with the iconic pushlock pocket closures, 100% calfskin, and interior suede lining were made with waaaaay better quality than the 22 and 19 tote (disclaimer: I have not examined either IRL). I also don't recall frequent QC issues on MJ Collection bags the way we've seen throughout the Chanel forum. No, I do not consider the MJ Collection bags to be "luxe" but I think this is a pretty good example of higher quality contemporary brands vs. the current quality of some Chanel bags, yet at the same time these MJ classics have not retained their RV.


This is a very different comparison than people referencing fast fashion and a few hundred dollar bags, so I appreciate this post. MJ seems so irrelevant these days so forgive me that I don’t have dates or collection names correct.

When MJ bags were huge in the 2000’s those bags were made very well. But when you compare those bags to his toned down collection (ie, lower line of less expensive bags. I have no idea what the correct names are) there was a huge difference in materials and quality and it was obvious to me. I had a friend who still loves MJ and I wasn’t sure what was so appealing for her, so a few years ago I’d check out his stuff and I can confirm it was not the quality of the bags that so many coveted in the 2000’s era.


----------



## gail13

bagsaremyjam said:


> Those are the worst kind of SA’s. The ones who dismiss noticeable damage from being handled too much. They have retail osmosis.
> 
> To be fair, there are people who are sooo intense with their purchases that feel like a extra thread that wasn’t cut short enough that’s slightly peeking out is a problem. In some of these threads I wonder how someone is really asking if there is a defect on their bag when there clearly isn’t.
> 
> I do understand that when spending these prices you have to get what you love, and I fall on the extreme on being particular but there are also many that blow me out of the water in that category, lol. Sometimes someone going through 6 bags doesn’t necessarily equate to quality issues as much as they’re on the hunt for a specific looking sheen on the leather, etc. Classic flaps are generally made incredibly well, but can look very different from bag to bag, especially with the caviar leather, puffiness of quilting, etc.


There is no perfect I agree. And any of us who have worked in retail know its not easy working with customers, let alone customers who are looking for what they expect from a bag that costs $8200 plus tax. It would be interesting to see if other people saw the same things. I see that comment alot "your bag should be perfect". I think that comes from newer customers....

I do think it would be good to know what some of these brands including Chanel do consider a defect.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> I would say I’ve had over the years about 40-45 severely defective Chanel bags… so about 7%?


Wow that’s insane. I’ve never heard anyone with a large collection say this. Severely defective. So I’m assuming you returned immediately because why would you hold onto those items? Why do you keep purchasing?


----------



## bagsaremyjam

zaraha said:


> @TraceySH Dare I say we may have invited PR from chanel working undercover. Just like the quality of  19 or 22 bags, quality of customer service also low.


Definitely not working undercover for Chanel, lol. Quality of customer service can definitely be low, not going to deny it. Hopefully you can find a good SA.


----------



## Coach Superfan

TraceySH said:


> This is going to go even more out there OT, but we haven’t even taken into consideration that super fakes are now, in many instances, much better quality than the authentic items. One of the ways authenticators are differentiating counterfeit from authentic is that the counterfeit are exceptional quality. So there’s another mind blowing tangent. “If it’s too good, it’s not authentic”. Not in every instance, but this is a common topic nowadays in sellers forums.


I was totally pondering this as well so in some cases you're probably right. I haven't inspected any superfakes, but I have read the reddit subforums and have been mindblown by how accurate they appear.


----------



## gail13

Chanel does have people monitoring all social media to include TPF, Facebook, IG and whatever else. There was originally a blog about the 22 bag but because there were so many initial negative responses to the design, they asked TPF to take it down (or both the author and Chanel came to the opinion it should be taken down). So, no doubt Chanel sees this thread but they would not be undercover at all.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

gail13 said:


> There is no perfect I agree. And any of us who have worked in retail know its not easy working with customers, let alone customers who are looking for what they expect from a bag that costs $8200 plus tax. It would be interesting to see if other people saw the same things. I see that comment alot "your bag should be perfect". I think that comes from newer customers....
> 
> I do think it would be good to know what some of these brands including Chanel do consider a defect.


100% agree!


----------



## 880

bagsaremyjam said:


> Wow that’s insane. I’ve never heard anyone with a large collection say this. Severely defective. So I’m assuming you returned immediately because why would you hold onto those items? Why do you keep purchasing?


I would say moldy is definitely a defect, but I didn’t think it could be a manufacturers defect (clearly I was wrong)
(This sounds like the H skunk tannery Birkins where the skins had problems)

I personally do not  think that a smushed bag is a defect. If you do, IMO only, you need to inspect in person
(members have responded that they simply cannot; but if you are that picky, for the money, that’s the only sure way)
if someone has a slightly crooked turnlock, I would simply take it to my SA to fix or ignore it
but I don’t want or need a new one.
I tend not to ever return anything out of my own preference (one way I practice sustainability)
but, that’s just me.

ETA:
A manufacturers defect is entirely different. But, it may be due to Chanel’s cutting corners re the 19 tote, IDK
I do stand by my belief that big brands cannot grow scale profitably and remain luxury


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> Wow that’s insane. I’ve never heard anyone with a large collection say this. Severely defective. So I’m assuming you returned immediately because why would you hold onto those items? Why do you keep purchasing?


I could tell you stories that wound make you twist like Linda Blair. One day I will document them. One of the better ones was getting boy bag in Hawaii. They had 3. First came out with all the hardware having fallen off in the box. Second was missing the under clasp. Like what is going on????

And I love my SA. Sacrificed a ton over the years, so I “wanted” it to be what it was supposed to be. Didn’t always end up that way. But like many on here, and I’ve said it before, there’s a big prescient of cognitive dissonance in any luxury purchasing.

So I’m getting older. Will be 50 next month, and I just don’t care enough anymore for all the drama. I feel like Kathy Bates in Fried Green Tomatoes.


----------



## Coach Superfan

bagsaremyjam said:


> This is a very different comparison than people referencing fast fashion and a few hundred dollar bag, so I appreciate this post. MJ seems so irrelevant these days so forgive me that I don’t have dates or collection names correct.
> 
> When MJ bags were huge in the 2000’s those bags were made very well. But when you compare those bags to his toned down collection (have no idea what the correct names are) there was a huge difference in materials and quality and it was obvious to me. I had a friend who still loves MJ and I wasn’t quite sure what was so appealing for her, but a few years ago I’d check out his stuff and I can confirm it was not the quality of the bags that so many coveted in the 2000’s era.



Yes, I agree completely. I stopped being a fan of the MJ bags once the design and quality took a nosedive... which is also when I took a hiatus from tpf. I don't follow the current styles anymore, hence why I upgraded myself to Chanel and this forum in the past decade lol.


----------



## waterlily112

gail13 said:


> Thats good! Most of the quality issues I have seen are on the seasonal bags. I do not agree with counting the stitches and examining bags under 8x magnification.Nothing is going to be perfect.
> 
> I know there is a thread on this forum from a member who bought a new classic flap and the inside was pretty badly scuffed/scratched and the SA's dismissed her as being too picky really. It was maybe the 6th bag? she had tried to find for herself and I know she is frustrated. I felt badly for her, it should not be hard to find a 'good one'.


I've been following that member's Chanel journey too. Tbh I think she first bought a WoC, came on here asked for feedback and happily using it. Then she got a medium flap that was in 'perfect' condition to her, but she changed her mind about the size and started shopping for a small classic flap. Maybe she has exchanged a total of 6 bags, but I don't think they were all contributed to her small classic flap shopping experience. In that sense, I don't think it's fair to paint her as a poster child as the typical picky shopper, she's new to buying Chanel bags and just wanted guidance/feedback. Her expectations seem quite reasonable imo, I think whenever we hear someone use the term 'perfect' we take it as literal, but in reality our definition of 'perfect' when it comes to handbags is very subjective from one to another. There is another thread where a member making a PSA about a 'defective' bag, when none of us see any visible issues, but I'll digress.

Just to put things into perspective. I recalled having to return 5 LV pochette metis in order to find one in the condition that's acceptable to me. I've never had to do it with any handbags, that was a first. One hear that may think, it shouldn't be that hard to find a good one, but oddly it was for me. It was in the middle of pandemic, boutiques were out of stock with many bags. I had to stalk the website to order one when it became available for a split second, get disappointed, then order another and hope for the best. Maybe that member is just going through the same funk that I did when shopping for the pochette metis. Who knows.


----------



## gail13

waterlily112 said:


> I've been following that member's Chanel journey too. Tbh I think she first bought a WoC, came on here asked for feedback and happily using it. Then she got a medium flap that was in 'perfect' condition to her, but she changed her mind about the size and started shopping for a small classic flap. Maybe she has exchanged a total of 6 bags, but I don't think they were all contributed to her small classic flap shopping experience. In that sense, I don't think it's fair to paint her as a poster child as the typical picky shopper, she's new to buying Chanel bags and just wanted guidance/feedback. Her expectations seem quite reasonable imo, I think whenever we hear someone use the term 'perfect' we take it as literal, but in reality our definition of 'perfect' when it comes to handbags is very subjective from one to another. There is another thread where a member making a PSA about a 'defective' bag, when none of us see any visible issues, but I'll digress.
> 
> Just to put things into perspective. I recalled having to return 5 LV pochette metis in order to find one in the condition that's acceptable to me. I've never had to do it with any handbags, that was a first. One hear that may think, it shouldn't be that hard to find a good one, but oddly it was for me. It was in the middle of pandemic, boutiques were out of stock with many bags. I had to stalk the website to order one when it became available for a split second, get disappointed, then order another and hope for the best. Maybe that member is just going through the same funk that I did when shopping for the pochette metis. Who knows.


I agree and this would have been a SA's perfect chance to explain why and how there might be differences. I do think one has a reasonable expectation of buying a bag that doesn't have obvious crooked front flaps, large scuffs to the interior/exterior, missing color on the hw and crooked turn locks. I'm hesitant to return because you never know what might be happening on the next one. 

You are right, this happens across the board and it not limited to any one designer. As TraceySH says, its exhausting at times. Purchasing a bag should be fun!


----------



## bagsaremyjam

Coach Superfan said:


> Ok so one thing that comes to mind when I read both of these comments is the Marc Jacobs Collection handbags back when it was considered a "Premier" designer here on TPF.... like 2006-2010ish. There was also his lower contemporary Marc by Marc Jacobs line that I am not referring to here. He was producing his MJ Collection while the creative director at LV (hence the similarities in some designs like the LV Alma vs. MJ Elise.. and the MJ Venetia has an LV twin that I can't recall). It wasn't until like 2013 that he left LV to focus on his own line, which ironically hasn't been as successful as his earlier Collection bags (IMO). Since then quality and design have gone downhill. I'd have to argue that the quality of his MJ Collection bags with the iconic pushlock pocket closures, 100% calfskin, and interior suede lining were made with waaaaay better quality than the 22 and 19 tote (disclaimer: I have not examined either IRL). I also don't recall frequent QC issues on MJ Collection bags the way we've seen throughout the Chanel forum. No, I do not consider the MJ Collection bags to be "luxe" but I think this is a pretty good example of higher quality contemporary brands vs. the current quality of some Chanel bags, yet at the same time these MJ classics have not retained their RV.


I think this may be repetitive as I thought I was responding to two different members, lol.

Whatever his premiere line was in the 2000’s (which is what I think you’re referring to) rivaled some of the designer bags we’re discussing, but I remember those bags selling for close to $2K at the time. I believe the MJ Collection is a lower tier line as evidenced by price and materials and although good quality don’t compare to the bags that were heavily coveted during his heyday, like the quilted bags with the large, snap closure hardware and chain straps.


----------



## fantajisan

waterlily112 said:


> I've been following that member's Chanel journey too. Tbh I think she first bought a WoC, came on here asked for feedback and happily using it. Then she got a medium flap that was in 'perfect' condition to her, but she changed her mind about the size and started shopping for a small classic flap. Maybe she has exchanged a total of 6 bags, but I don't think they were all contributed to her small classic flap shopping experience. In that sense, I don't think it's fair to paint her as a poster child as the typical picky shopper, she's new to buying Chanel bags and just wanted guidance/feedback. Her expectations seem quite reasonable imo, I think whenever we hear someone use the term 'perfect' we take it as literal, but in reality our definition of 'perfect' when it comes to handbags is very subjective from one to another. There is another thread where a member making a PSA about a 'defective' bag, when none of us see any visible issues, but I'll digress.
> 
> Just to put things into perspective. I recalled having to return 5 LV pochette metis in order to find one in the condition that's acceptable to me. I've never had to do it with any handbags, that was a first. One hear that may think, it shouldn't be that hard to find a good one, but oddly it was for me. It was in the middle of pandemic, boutiques were out of stock with many bags. I had to stalk the website to order one when it became available for a split second, get disappointed, then order another and hope for the best. Maybe that member is just going through the same funk that I did when shopping for the pochette metis. Who knows.





gail13 said:


> I agree and this would have been a SA's perfect chance to explain why and how there might be differences. I do think one has a reasonable expectation of buying a bag that doesn't have obvious crooked front flaps, large scuffs to the interior/exterior, missing color on the hw and crooked turn locks. I'm hesitant to return because you never know what might be happening on the next one.
> 
> You are right, this happens across the board and it not limited to any one designer. As TraceySH says, its exhausting at times. Purchasing a bag should be fun!



Lack of consistency is causing a lot of this frustration for newer customers. People don't want to feel like they've got the short end of the stick when paying the same price as those who attest to out-of-this-world construction and material quality.


----------



## gail13

fantajisan said:


> Lack of consistency is causing a lot of this frustration for newer customers. People don't want to feel like they've got the short end of the stick when paying the same price as those who attest to out-of-this-world construction and material quality.


The real problem is when these people try to turn around to sell a bag and the inconsistencies the bag came with are some of the reasons it won't sell.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

fantajisan said:


> Lack of consistency is causing a lot of this frustration for newer customers. People don't want to feel like they've got the short end of the stick when paying the same price as those who attest to out-of-this-world construction and material quality.


I think a lot of this comes into play as well because a lot of people are buying these bags just to buy the bag for the name, status, etc. If you’re buying it for all the things above but you also love the design most would spend time looking at them in person or other brands for comparison and educating themselves. I think sometimes SA’s expect more from people purchasing and don’t have time to give a 30 minute overview, but I also think a 5 to 10 minute discussion on things to look for is necessary. I think if there’s a love for the brand many assume you’ve done your homework, but there’s so many who go in and buy a bag blindly because of perceived status.


----------



## fantajisan

bagsaremyjam said:


> I think a lot of this comes into play as well because a lot of people are buying these bags just to buy the bag for the name, status, etc. If you’re buying it for all the things above but you also love the design most would spend time looking at them in person or other brands for comparison and educating themselves. I think sometimes SA’s expect more from people purchasing and don’t have time to give a 30 minute overview, but I also think a 5 to 10 minute discussion on things to look for is necessary. I think if there’s a love for the brand many assume you’ve done your homework, but there’s so many who go in and buy a bag blindly because of perceived status.


I'm sorry but it's unreasonable to expect people to major in fashion history and textiles to qualify to spend their money.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

fantajisan said:


> I'm sorry but it's unreasonable to expect people to major in fashion history and textiles to qualify to spend their money.


I’m not saying that, but it’s like going into Rolex because it’s Rolex and having no clue what you’re buying. Most would go into the store and ask questions before purchasing and do research. It’s generally what informed consumers do when spending several thousands of dollars on an item. Call me crazy, but I don’t think that’s unreasonable when you begin purchasing luxury goods you’re unfamiliar with. But like I said, many people just go in buying it because of the name.

There are ways to go into a store and ask to be educated since you’re looking to purchase your first bag(s) and there are SA’s who will happily answer.


----------



## Coach Superfan

bagsaremyjam said:


> I think this may be repetitive as I thought I was responding to two different members, lol.
> 
> Whatever his premiere line was in the 2000’s (which is what I think you’re referring to) rivaled some of the designer bags we’re discussing, but I remember those bags selling for close to $2K at the time. I believe the MJ Collection is a lower tier line as evidenced by price and materials and although good quality don’t compare to the bags that were heavily coveted during his heyday, like the quilted bags with the large, snap closure hardware and chain straps.


The MJ Collection is what I was referring to and it sounds like you're describing the Stam, which is only one bag out of his well known collection and featured a kisslock closure on top. The "classic" line in its heydey included but is not limited to the more popular Stam, Venetia, Blake, Stella, Sophia, Elise models. They came quilted, patchwork, or smooth. The prices ranged from like $900 and up depending on the size. I think the Stam started around $1600 but there was a much higher priced rare ostrich version.  There was even a quilted flap bag somewhat resembling a Chanel CF. His lower line also available at that same era is/was Marc by Marc Jacobs, which I'm not sure is still in production.


----------



## fantajisan

bagsaremyjam said:


> I’m not saying that, but it’s like going into Rolex because it’s Rolex and having no clue what you’re buying. Most would go into the store and ask questions before purchasing and do research. It’s generally what informed consumers do when spending several thousands of dollars on an item. Call me crazy, but I don’t think that’s unreasonable when you begin purchasing luxury goods you’re unfamiliar with. But like I said, many people just go in buying it because of the name.


This also contradicts your earlier statements that the quality and attention to detail is so superior and life-changing (vs something like coach or polene or aspinal or whatever, obv not talking H&M here), that it should be immediately obvious to any consumer without hundreds of hours of research behind their belt.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

Coach Superfan said:


> The MJ Collection is what I was referring to and it sounds like you're describing the Stam, which is only one bag out of his well known collection and featured a kisslock closure on top. The "classic" line in its heydey included but is not limited to the more popular Stam, Venetia, Blake, Stella, Sophia, Elise models. They came quilted, patchwork, or smooth. The prices ranged from like $900 and up depending on the size. I think the Stam started around $1600 but there was a much higher priced rare ostrich version.  There was even a quilted flap bag somewhat resembling a Chanel CF. His lower line also available at that same era is/was Marc by Marc Jacobs, which I'm not sure is still in production.


Yes you’re right. I don’t believe the MJ collection can be compared to the bags we’re discussing, although the the Stam bags and others named above definitely could.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

fantajisan said:


> This also contradicts your earlier statements that the quality and attention to detail is so superior and life-changing (vs something like coach or polene or aspinal or whatever, obv not talking H&M here), that it should be immediately obvious to any consumer without hundreds of hours of research behind their belt.


You’re forgetting I also referred to usage in those statements. To someone with discerning attention to detail and extensive bag experience I believe that comparison can me made, yes. And even to those that don’t, I still believe it. But there are a lot to people who haven’t been around luxury and can appreciate it fully until they’ve had experience with it.

What you’re not understanding about what I’m saying is there are people who blindly buy who don’t appreciate the way things are made, so they’ll just go in and buy a bag because of the name. They may never have owned a luxury bag at this point. They’ll think it’s nice but know nothing about what they purchased or what the material means in relation to wear, etc. They just purchase without even remotely educating themselves.

I have friends who like luxury but don’t purchase the way I do. They purchase because they like it and what the brand means to them. But do they all examine the design and quality like I do? Not at all. There are very few of my friends who purchase luxury who do. They just don’t have passion for or value design, bags, luxury goods and materials the way I do, which is how I found myself on TPF as a teenager. A lot of people really can’t tell you in detail the difference between a regular contemporary bag and a designer because they’re not passionate about it or aren’t detail oriented in regards to that kind of stuff.


----------



## waterlily112

bagsaremyjam said:


> I think a lot of this comes into play as well because a lot of people are buying these bags just to buy the bag for the name, status, etc. If you’re buying it for all the things above but you also love the design most would spend time looking at them in person or other brands for comparison and educating themselves. I think sometimes SA’s expect more from people purchasing and don’t have time to give a 30 minute overview, but I also think a 5 to 10 minute discussion on things to look for is necessary. I think if there’s a love for the brand many assume you’ve done your homework, but there’s so many who go in and buy a bag blindly because of perceived status.


Can't speak for everyone but for my friend's case, she doesn't have a boutique near her that have one available, the SA told her there's a long waiting list, so she has to get the bag via charge send. The bag looked good to her in the photos & just like the stock photos on Chanel's website. It wasn't until it's starting to peel so she brought it to the boutique to get help, that's when I noticed the leather felt different from the 22 bag I've felt at the boutique but it's already too late. I think it's easy to point finger and assume new buyers aren't smart enough to make an 'educated' choice (my friend has been collecting luxury bags for over a decade), especially with new style/model that people just don't have enough data on and don't know what to expect. It wasn't until recently that some YouTubers started raising the quality concerns but if you come to this forum and check the 22 bag thread, people with peeling issues get dismissed, being told the peeling only happens to metallic leather, and then people piled on talking about how durable and lovely THEIR BAG is. It's really bizarre imo.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

waterlily112 said:


> Can't speak for everyone but for my friend's case, she doesn't have a boutique near her that have one available, the SA told her there's a long waiting list, so she has to get the bag via charge send. The bag looked good to her in the photos & just like the stock photos on Chanel's website. It wasn't until it's starting to peel so she brought it to the boutique to get help, that's when I noticed the leather felt different from the 22 bag I've felt at the boutique but it's already too late. I think it's easy to point finger and assume new buyers aren't smart enough to make an 'educated' choice (my friend has been collecting luxury bags for over a decade), especially with new style/model that people just don't have enough data on and don't know what to expect. It wasn't until recently that some YouTubers started raising the quality concerns but if you come to this forum and check the 22 bag thread, people with peeling issues get dismissed, being told the peeling only happens to metallic leather, and then people piled on talking about how durable and lovely THEIR BAG is. It's really bizarre imo.


I don’t count your friend as an uneducated buyer at all. Purchasing via phone can pose its challenges. I think some can tell I’m referring to those who have just started buying designer bags or are interested in them and haven’t begun their journey yet. You can tell sometimes based on their posts.

In terms of the 22 bags, I’ve seen three people in person at my nail salon with them. They had white, black and a regular green. I asked all of them how they were liking their bag and they raved about it. I’ve also seen influencers rave about the quality when referring to the regular colored bags. From what I’m seeing on YouTube so far the people having issues have metallic or iridescent in their bags. I don’t know anything outside of that though.


----------



## Tina1010

gail13 said:


> Thats good! Most of the quality issues I have seen are on the seasonal bags. I do not agree with counting the stitches and examining bags under 8x magnification.Nothing is going to be perfect.
> 
> I know there is a thread on this forum from a member who bought a new classic flap and the inside was pretty badly scuffed/scratched and the SA's dismissed her as being too picky really. It was maybe the 6th bag? she had tried to find for herself and I know she is frustrated. I felt badly for her, it should not be hard to find a 'good one'.


That member would be me.  It's a luxury handbag - with scuff marks inside. It's unacceptable for any brand new bag of any company, especially a luxury brand. The brand should meet the standards the brand itself represents for any person buying it, whether they are educated in judging the quality of those bags or not.  When I purchased this bag, I expected a fun easy experience at a luxury brand, equal quality in every piece throughout, not knowing I'd have to learn so much about the problems in advance so I don't encounter them.  Yep I've gone through 6.  I read someones post that they had gone through 12, and thats pretty sad if you think about it.  Someone my look at their collection of hundreds of handbags and be ok with the fact that a few of those are not that great, but some of us out here are having the opposite experience.  I think these issues are coming more to light because the cost of these bags have sky rocketed and so we are paying more attention to what we buy.  At the end of the day, I still want a Chanel, because the style appeals to me, no other luxury brands and their styles speak to me in the way a Chanels classic flap style does and I'm sure I'll find the one someday.


----------



## zaraha

TraceySH said:


> I would say I’ve had over the years about 40-45 severely defective Chanel bags… so about 7%?


During pendamic I fell in love with small classic size, after 10-15 years of heavily buying jumbos, maxis and mediums.  I don’t recall running into lot of quality issues with those classics back then.  I recently added the small classic; unfortunately I had to go thru about 5 major faulty bags to find a decent one.
Sorry pictures came out so big.


----------



## mzbaglady1

I have to commend you ladies for having the patience and tolerance of keep searching through several faulty bags until you find one that meets your requirements. For me it could be the three strike rule or less after that the merchandise is not worth my time or aggravation to purchase.  To me if I have to keep looking and searching for the right one my whole experience of a luxury purchase is exhausting and disappointing.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

zaraha said:


> During pendamic I fell in love with small classic size, after 10-15 years of heavily buying jumbos, maxis and mediums.  I don’t recall running into lot of quality issues with those classics back then.  I recently added the small classic; unfortunately I had to go thru about 5 major faulty bags to find a decent one.
> Sorry pictures came out so big.
> View attachment 5581067
> 
> 
> View attachment 5581068


Holy cow I’ve never seen anything like this in a classic bag.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

mzbaglady1 said:


> I have to commend you ladies for having the patience and tolerance of keep searching through several faulty bags until you find one that meets your requirements. For me it could be the three strike rule or less after that the merchandise is not worth my time or aggravation to purchase.  To me if I have to keep looking and searching for the right one my whole experience of a luxury purchase is exhausting and disappointing.


It’s completely exhausting for brands like Chanel and Hermes. The research alone for upcoming collections and trying to stay on top of everything is beyond laborious. It’s literally a part time job if you’re waiting for a certain style, color, etc. It’s better than being a drug addict, lol. Even the amount of time I’ve spent on this thread is embarrassing, lol.   

I feel there are only so many on here who purchase so much all the bags, accessories, RTW from each collection are handed over to them on a regular basis.


----------



## zaraha

mzbaglady1 said:


> I have to commend you ladies for having the patience and tolerance of keep searching through several faulty bags until you find one that meets your requirements. For me it could be the three strike rule or less after that the merchandise is not worth my time or aggravation to purchase.  To me if I have to keep looking and searching for the right one my whole experience of a luxury purchase is exhausting and disappointing.


Agree, I have told my SA forget it, not worth her time or mine, but bless her heart she didn’t stop looking.  We all know chanel made this black classics to be like unicorns. If it wasn’t for her effort I would not add this size to my collection.  It’s also hard to find these type of SAs now a days with amazing customer service.


----------



## Tina1010

mzbaglady1 said:


> I have to commend you ladies for having the patience and tolerance of keep searching through several faulty bags until you find one that meets your requirements. For me it could be the three strike rule or less after that the merchandise is not worth my time or aggravation to purchase.  To me if I have to keep looking and searching for the right one my whole experience of a luxury purchase is exhausting and disappointing.


I have Instas algorithm to thank for that.  I get annoyed and say never again and after some time on insta with it's beautiful photos of the bag I end up right where I started. Haha.  In all seriousness though it's a beautiful bag I've wanted forever and I don't want to give up, it'll be worth it at the end.


----------



## mzbaglady1

zaraha said:


> Agree, I had told my SA forget it not worth her time or mine, but bless her heart she didn’t stop looking.  We all know chanel made this black classics to be like unicorns. If it wasn’t her effort I would not add this size to my collection.  It’s also hard to find this type of SAs now a days with amazing customer service.


The Sa makes the difference. It shouldn't be the customer calling and texting various Sa to locate the merchandise.  For me no chase of a luxury item is worth the hassle.


----------



## Swanky

IG is funny that way. . . my algorithm is enticing me with baby and kitty pics, and a few random make up tutorials lol!


----------



## waterlily112

Swanky said:


> IG is funny that way. . . my algorithm is enticing me with baby and kitty pics, and a few random make up tutorials lol!


Lmao! Same...my IG algorithm is full of kitties and puppies having nicer hair than me


----------



## ntntgo

Swanky said:


> I'm right there with you! I prefer lamb all day and I have had no quality issues in any of mine; I've been buying since about 2006.
> I've bought 5 in the last 3 months, they're all delicious in my opinion, which is the only one that matters to me lol


I’m with you.


Swanky said:


> I'm right there with you! I prefer lamb all day and I have had no quality issues in any of mine; I've been buying since about 2006.
> I've bought 5 in the last 3 months, they're all delicious in my opinion, which is the only one that matters to me lol





bagsaremyjam said:


> You’re forgetting I also referred to usage in those statements. To someone with discerning attention to detail and extensive bag experience I believe that comparison can me made, yes. And even to those that don’t, I still believe it. But there are a lot to people who haven’t been around luxury and can appreciate it fully until they’ve had experience with it.
> 
> What you’re not understanding about what I’m saying is there are people who blindly buy who don’t appreciate the way things are made, so they’ll just go in and buy a bag because of the name. They may never have owned a luxury bag at this point. They’ll think it’s nice but know nothing about what they purchased or what the material means in relation to wear, etc. They just purchase without even remotely educating themselves.
> 
> I have friends who like luxury but don’t purchase the way I do. They purchase because they like it and what the brand means to them. But do they all examine the design and quality like I do? Not at all. There are very few of my friends who purchase luxury who do. They just don’t have passion for or value design, bags, luxury goods and materials the way I do, which is how I found myself on TPF as a teenager. A lot of people really can’t tell you in detail the difference between a regular contemporary bag and a designer because they’re not passionate about it or aren’t detail oriented in regards to that kind of stuff.


----------



## Swanky

ntntgo said:


> I’m with you.
> 
> 
> So you’re a Camellia client?


I'm not


----------



## ntntgo

Swanky said:


> IG is funny that way. . . my algorithm is enticing me with baby and kitty pics, and a few random make up tutorials lol!


I’ll take dogs and other animals over grown women doing 15 minute unboxings any day. If you have a bag or shoes, show them. We don’t need to see the whole unboxing. 
I don’t know, maybe it’s me but seeing dog videos is far less childish than watching someone open a box.  I’m sure you’d agree.



Swanky said:


> IG is funny that way. . . my algorithm is enticing me with baby and kitty pics, and a few random make up tutorials lol!


The edited makeup and hair tutorials just kill me.



waterlily112 said:


> Lmao! Same...my IG algorithm is full of kitties and puppies having nicer hair than me


The animal videos I have to admit, I love.  The edited makeup and supposedly easy hair tutorials. Those are just crazy. for some reason the cake decorating videos soothe me even though I don’t love cake.


----------



## ntntgo

Swanky said:


> I'm not


Sorry Swanky. That’s wasn’t meant for you. My apologies. That got on there as I was agreeing with you about the lambskin


----------



## ntntgo

bagsaremyjam said:


> You’re forgetting I also referred to usage in those statements. To someone with discerning attention to detail and extensive bag experience I believe that comparison can me made, yes. And even to those that don’t, I still believe it. But there are a lot to people who haven’t been around luxury and can appreciate it fully until they’ve had experience with it.
> 
> What you’re not understanding about what I’m saying is there are people who blindly buy who don’t appreciate the way things are made, so they’ll just go in and buy a bag because of the name. They may never have owned a luxury bag at this point. They’ll think it’s nice but know nothing about what they purchased or what the material means in relation to wear, etc. They just purchase without even remotely educating themselves.
> 
> I have friends who like luxury but don’t purchase the way I do. They purchase because they like it and what the brand means to them. But do they all examine the design and quality like I do? Not at all. There are very few of my friends who purchase luxury who do. They just don’t have passion for or value design, bags, luxury goods and materials the way I do, which is how I found myself on TPF as a teenager. A lot of people really can’t tell you in detail the difference between a regular contemporary bag and a designer because they’re not passionate about it or aren’t detail oriented in regards to that kind of stuff.


You’re a Camellia client too?


----------



## GucciGoneWild

To continue to go OT (sorry), but you know what else is odd to me?? The recent minis with charms are priced higher than a regular lambskin mini and the reg lamb minis are, arguably, because I’m arguing it, WAY higher in demand.  It’s like Chanel is playing in your face saying “Oh you want this mini? Well let’s make it even harder for you to get because we’re restricting stock BUT because we know you’re sooo thirsty for us we’ll sell you a different bag that’s MORE expensive and it clangs when you walk.  That sound good??” 

I personally sympathize with people who do not research all that could be wrong with an $8k+ bag.  When a brand has a reputation of delivering high quality goods or services you really shouldn’t have to. Further, I think anyone paying that much has the right to voice their discrepancies all day if they please, but I urge my friends to remember to protect themselves first and research what to look for so you don’t go in with rose colored glasses.  Also, I would presume to guess that many of the people purchasing these pieces work 60+ hours a week. I wouldn’t expect them to spend what’s left of their free time stalking PF to play the game of What’s Wrong With This Chanel Collection.  I use At&t for my internet, because they advertise that they can provide me with internet access, not because I’ve researched how wifi works.


----------



## fantajisan

GucciGoneWild said:


> To continue to go OT (sorry), but you know what else is odd to me?? The recent minis with charms are priced higher than a regular lambskin mini and the reg lamb minis are, arguably, because I’m arguing it, WAY higher in demand.  It’s like Chanel is playing in your face saying “Oh you want this mini? Well let’s make it even harder for you to get because we’re restricting stock BUT because we know you’re sooo thirsty for us we’ll sell you a different bag that’s MORE expensive and it clangs when you walk.  That sound good??”
> 
> I personally sympathize with people who do not research all that could be wrong with an $8k+ bag.  When a brand has a reputation of delivering high quality goods or services you really shouldn’t have to. Further, I think anyone paying that much has the right to voice their discrepancies all day if they please, but I urge my friends to remember to protect themselves first and research what to look for so you don’t go in with rose colored glasses.  Also, I would presume to guess that many of the people purchasing these pieces work 60+ hours a week. I wouldn’t expect them to spend what’s left of their free time stalking PF to play the game of What’s Wrong With This Chanel Collection.  I use At&t for my internet, because they advertise that they can provide me with internet access, not because I’ve researched how wifi works.



I would also say there are diminishing returns when it comes to price vs quality (if we disregard marketing). For example, I can definitely distinguish between an $8 white t-shirt and an $80 white t-shirt (how it looks and wears), but my untrained country bumpkin eye  can't tell the difference between that $80 t-shirt and $800 t-shirt with a logo slapped on it. At that point the markup is for the brand.


----------



## EpiFanatic

Coach Superfan said:


> The MJ Collection is what I was referring to and it sounds like you're describing the Stam, which is only one bag out of his well known collection and featured a kisslock closure on top. The "classic" line in its heydey included but is not limited to the more popular Stam, Venetia, Blake, Stella, Sophia, Elise models. They came quilted, patchwork, or smooth. The prices ranged from like $900 and up depending on the size. I think the Stam started around $1600 but there was a much higher priced rare ostrich version.  There was even a quilted flap bag somewhat resembling a Chanel CF. His lower line also available at that same era is/was Marc by Marc Jacobs, which I'm not sure is still in production.


Digressing but I loved MJ when he first left LV to start his own line. I so loved the bags in the main line and the lower priced line but more than anything I loved his RTW. The leather was great but ironically I stopped buying bags because they became too heavy for me. I have hoarded one small pochette and the leather on it is amazing. What I loved the most was his RTW. I have hoarded so much of MJ sweaters and t-shirts it’s scary. Too bad he had to scale back so much on design and quality. But I so loved his aesthetic.


----------



## zaraha

Swanky said:


> I'm not


You must be on camellia list!  They broke the 1 bag per month policy for you… wink wink…


----------



## Swanky

zaraha said:


> You must be on camellia list!  They broke the 1 bag per month policy for you… wink wink…


That's why I'm not sure the policy exists! lol


----------



## gail13

fantajisan said:


> I would also say there are diminishing returns when it comes to price vs quality (if we disregard marketing). For example, I can definitely distinguish between an $8 white t-shirt and an $80 white t-shirt (how it looks and wears), but my untrained country bumpkin eye  can't tell the difference between that $80 t-shirt and $800 t-shirt with a logo slapped on it. At that point the markup is for the brand.


And you would be shocked how much this happens. I have shopped the LA Garment District for years and talked to countless merchants who sell to all kinds of people. You can buy stuff for $10 that resells for 10x the price and no one has any idea. And yes, the perceived brand perception is what sells it, not the actual quality.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

ntntgo said:


> You’re a Camellia client too?


No definitely not. I am not close to being one. I have a solid purchase history and am still able to reserve bags, but I’m certainly not dropping hundreds of thousands yearly.


----------



## GucciGoneWild

fantajisan said:


> I would also say there are diminishing returns when it comes to price vs quality (if we disregard marketing). For example, I can definitely distinguish between an $8 white t-shirt and an $80 white t-shirt (how it looks and wears), but my untrained country bumpkin eye  can't tell the difference between that $80 t-shirt and $800 t-shirt with a logo slapped on it. At that point the markup is for the brand.


Definitely agree!! However I think it might be more obvious on shirts where you can easily check the tag and see what the item is made of (polyester vs cotton vs tencel vs etc) than a CF for instance. To the untrained eye, they all look good, or at least they all did when I started buying! But now I know better.  Not saying that their price reflects their quality, but most people would assume it does if they didn’t look into it, you know?

SN: I’m absolutely loving this thread


----------



## EpiFanatic

ntntgo said:


> I came back to catch up and wow did this thread take a sharp left.
> As we are already off topic, I’ll again add some context to the logo discussion.
> I want to once again clarify my comment about my mom modeling for Chanel. To be clear, 1.) There were no “runways”. Women were posed on individual elevated platforms or they posed as a group and 2.) She modeled for many designers (I’m using the word designer as a person who designs.) Some ”design houses” are still around, some are well known and some aren’t or are gone all together. I wanted to get that out of the way.
> There is what my mom called CBK (Chanel before Karl) when the CC logo was on haute couture and on the inside flap of the 2.55 and CAK. When Karl took over after the passing of Coco, he did something that was very smart that expanded Chanel from a true fashion house to an actual brand. First, he removed the CC logo from any haute couture and ONLY put it on RTW as he knew that once that logo was slapped all over everything, those who bought haute couture would no longer buy it and by using it all over pret-a-porter (RTW) it became available to everyone.
> in the 80’s somewhere, is when he started using it as the turn lock on bags. The rest is history.  Not HERstory (her being Coco). It changed the brand forever. I’d like to believe that it got away from him as the Wertheimer’s greed got the best of him. Also, please keep in mind that Coco sued Pierre Wertheimer to get her company back as he was originally brought in to the perfume business and she felt that he began to exploit her name.
> My apologies to the OP for my interjection of OT history.
> I’ll close with this, the original Chanel handbag looked more like what we know as the Hermes Kelly before Coco got sick of carrying a handheld bag. The 2.55 was (I know I’m going to likely lambasted for this but facts are facts) based off of the military bags that the SS soldiers carried. Keep in mind the herstory of Coco & the SS.
> Also, to OP’s point about Chanel not being a French company, she is correct. The Wertheimers came to the US in the 1940s as they were Jewish & the business holdings are in fact located in the UK.
> Thank you for allowing me to interject my completely OT history posts. I just wanted to highlight that the names thrown out in this thread are not fashion houses anymore. They are brands being brilliantly marketed to new money.
> Thank you for allowing me to momentarily hijack your thread OP.
> 
> 
> Totally OT, I’ve been looking for glasses that shape. Most I’ve found are either Dita or Saint Laurent. Do you mind me asking who makes those? They’re fabulous.
> 
> 
> I have no concerns about my privacy here. Most people who have been on here a long time know my name anyway. I use the same @ntntgo on all of my social media. Ironically enough, this is where it started.
> However, my mom passed a couple of years ago and I won’t post her personal photos on a public forum. If we’re FB friends or you’re on my IG, I posted some of her modeling photos (not just Chanel) on my personal pages when she passed. They are viewable there and I’m pretty sure there are a handful of OGs in this convo that I am friends with.
> My apologies if we are but I’ve been off TPF for years as a regular and have long since forgotten most of the TPF names of people who I became real life friends with.
> ETA: My mom never wanted to be known as a model. She wanted to be known as a pioneering hematologist and after she retired, just a mom and wife. She hated when I told people about her modeling. But, it’s not my pride in her modeling for top fashion houses. It’s pride that at 16 years old she went out on her own and worked her way through college & medical school without a dime from her family.


Thank you for sharing your knowledge.  I’ve enjoyed reading your posts so much. Your mom sounds like a boss and I am imagining her walking in those private rooms showing those well dressed ladies the latest collections. Did she also have to hold a number?


----------



## Tina1010

GucciGoneWild said:


> Definitely agree!! However I think it might be more obvious on shirts where you can easily check the tag and see what the item is made of (polyester vs cotton vs tencel vs etc) than a CF for instance. To the untrained eye, they all look good, or at least they all did when I started buying! But now I know better.  Not saying that their price reflects their quality, but most people would assume it does if they didn’t look into it, you know?
> 
> SN: I’m absolutely loving this thread


Of course.. the last time I did this amount of research was when I bought a Canon DSLR to make sure I understood the specs, never doubted it's quality.  With a classic bag, I though all I had to worry about was how it looked on me, never thought that the quality expectations  from this brand would be an issue.


----------



## GucciGoneWild

Tina1010 said:


> Of course.. the last time I did this amount of research was when I bought a Canon DSLR to make sure I understood the specs, never doubted it's quality.  With a classic bag, I though all I had to worry about was how it looked on me, *never thought that the quality expectations  from this brand would be an issue.*


SAME. At the end of the day it’s a business like any other, but they sell it so well.


----------



## gail13

@ntntgo please DM me. As a long time client also, I think you would enjoy attending a private event I am going to.


----------



## zaraha

@ntntgo I found you on IG!  I think that’s you!


----------



## 880

ntntgo said:


> She would have hated the lowering of status with the logo becoming exponentially available To the masses.


I’m not sure how she would have felt about the logo driven merchandise fueling exponential rise in profit, throughout recent years, and sky rocketing during Covid. I believe she was all about change and innovation. If she were alive today to see the logo bikinis, sweaters, buttons, I think she would wear brunello cuchinelli At least in private


gail13 said:


> I do love my designers like many of us here. But I don't understand what we are buying into at a time when we think we are paying for hand crafting, luxurious leather, and rare materials, when in fact its anything but.


Most customers who desire the logos , from CFs to coco neige, are choosing the most recognizable status signifiers of the brand. If large groups of their peers buy it, the quality doesn’t have to be high. In fact, it can be reduced to the lowest common denominator of what’s acceptable.


bagsaremyjam said:


> I’ve seen vintage Chanel bags made incredibly well, and I’ve also seen some with cheap interior linings that many of us would never find acceptable today.


In the mid 2000’s, I remember seasonal bags (not lambskin) with sturdy fabric lining, maybe canvas? The bags seemed lighter in weight. The leather was thicker. I thought it was practical.


gail13 said:


> do think it would be good to know what some of these brands including Chanel do consider a defect.


a defect would not be variation that could be attributed to machine settings adjustments that vary among factories
or a storage defect. What I find curious is that neither chanel nor dior, both fashion houses, nor Hermes, a luxury leather brand, seem to consider an overlapping doubled stitch on a bag edge or corner an issue. IMO it’s a a sloppy way to reinforce or change direction of the machine.


gail13 said:


> I'm hesitant to return because you never know what might be happening on the next one.


My first reaction is that those who return more than a few times get progressively worse bags. I think their SAs lose patience and honestly chanel corporate would rather not have them as clients. (I’m only expressing what I’ve heard management from various premier brands tell me)


fantajisan said:


> People don't want to feel like they've got the short end of the stick when paying the same price as those who attest to out-of-this-world construction and material


I believe the top tier of chanel clients, camellia et al (I am not one) go to Hermes or a leather house for top quality to wear with their chanel RTW or Couture.

Back in the day when I would have paid more attention, around 2012, I read that newcomers could attain camellia status with a 210K or 250K USD annual spend on clothing or fine jewelry. In todays prices, there wpuld be many ways to attain this, like 10 items of RTW plus a few pieces of jewelry or watches. Or five pieces of HC. but I have no idea what the current cut off is. I’m assuming it’s significantly higher than in 2012.

i have good luck with my bag purchases. From my older purchases, the metallic reissues (yes I’ve had no problems with metallic finish) are the only ones I kept. Reissues look kind of aged and beat up from the start. They look the same. But. I have enough stuff that I purposefully rotate and wear a single item infrequently past it’s first season of use.



waterlily112 said:


> she brought it to the boutique to get help, that's when I noticed the leather felt different from the 22 bag I've felt at the boutique but it's already too late.


I would be interested to know what grade of leather chanel buys and what’s the acceptable range of variance within that grade. not sure if that, plus differing machine tolerances for the application of the coating would account for markedly different texture.


mzbaglady1 said:


> The Sa makes the difference.


Of course. To me product is secondary to the ability of an SA to filter and select items that she knows you will love. All of my SAs know my taste and what I already own. It has never occurred to her to push a bag


fantajisan said:


> can't tell the difference between that $80 t-shirt and $800 t-shirt


IMO, the T shirts and knit tops and sweaters (not loose weave monstrosities that bag out on the hanger)
are unusually flattering fit. I may not always like Chanel’s color palette which is geared to caucasians or pale Asians, but these items are still relatively durable and flattering. IMO while the details Of the jackets have remained on brand, the cuts of the jackets changed when KL first lost a zillion pounds. Everyone criticizes VV, but she was KLs right hand person for years. Both VV and KL have made ugly clothes. But KL probably had much more autonomy to  write his own ticket and do and spend what he wanted. Who knows what corporate constraints or directives VV has received in terms of cutting costs; target demographic; styles. An algorithym could be saying to manufacturers we need to manufacture faux nostalgia in the target demographic. Dropped shoulders and high waistbands will ensure we’re young and cutting edge

what does all of this have to do with the 19 tote. I believe that Chanel simply sees all bags as money makers. They’re not going to change a winning formula. Even if there are a few dissenters. Chanel can simply point to the vast numbers sold as an indication that they are going down the right path. And I will probably be flamed for voicing this thought that just popped into my head, but the tote style is currently seen as an older woman’s bag. I think if chanel were to lose the occasional older female tote bag shopper, they would reason that they can make it up in the up and coming younger, logo driven client.


----------



## Swanky

880 said:


> what does all of this have to do with the 19 tote. I believe that Chanel simply sees all bags as money makers. They’re not going to change a winning formula. Even if there are a few dissenters. Chanel can simply point to the vast numbers sold as an indication that they are going down the right path.



Agreed! 
Even when they make some seasonal items that aren't classic and don't appeal to everyone, they're still succeeding.  Over the nearly 20 years I've been buying I've watched buying frenzies of different bags come and go.  The nice thing is there's something for everyone, and if not, there's MANY others brands that can offer whatever please you.
I've had some great seasonal items, my PNY, Luxury Ligne and Cotton Club come to mind.  When my Cotton Club tote was stolen recently, it was the bronze one and the metallic color was still gorgeously intact, that was a tough loss for me.  IIRC @880 it had a fabric lining that was a ribbed and thick satiny fabric that I liked.


----------



## 880

Swanky said:


> Agreed!
> Even when they make some seasonal items that aren't classic and don't appeal to everyone, they're still succeeding.  Over the nearly 20 years I've been buying I've watched buying frenzies of different bags come and go.  The nice thing is there's something for everyone, and if not, there's MANY others brands that can offer whatever please you.
> I've had some great seasonal items, my PNY, Luxury Ligne and Cotton Club come to mind.  When my Cotton Club tote was stolen recently, it was the bronze one and the metallic color was still gorgeously intact, that was a tough loss for me.  IIRC @880 it had a fabric lining that was a ribbed and thick satiny fabric that I liked.


I loved that collection. If I remember correctly, many of those bags were high shoulder carry, which was so practical those days.  I am so sorry for all of your losses. Insurance coverage cannot replace older treasures!


----------



## waterlily112

880 said:


> I would be interested to know what grade of leather chanel buys and what’s the acceptable range of variance within that grade. not sure if that, plus differing machine tolerances for the application of the coating would account for markedly different texture.


That's a million dollar question and Chanel will never give us a straight answer...lol the craftmanship of both bags seem comparable to me (as far as I remembered), it was just the texture of the leather that stood out to me right away. The floor model felt almost squishy, my friend's bag felt like PU leather and not the good quality one. I feel so bad because despite my friend doing some research and finally decided on the black one, after hearing some issues with the metallic version and white ones getting stains easily, she bought it because I told her the one I saw at the boutique seems to made of high quality leather. Little did I know...


----------



## 880

waterlily112 said:


> That's a million dollar question and Chanel will never give us a straight answer...lol the craftmanship of both bags seem comparable to me (as far as I remembered), it was just the texture of the leather that stood out to me right away. The floor model felt almost squishy, my friend's bag felt like PU leather and not the good quality one. I feel so bad because despite my friend doing some research and finally decided on the black one, after hearing some issues with the metallic version and white ones getting stains easily, she bought it because I told her the one I saw at the boutique seems to made of high quality leather. Little did I know...


Someone here said that dyes strongly affect leather feel; I loved the white one and the metallic. I able fortunate in that I am able to try on a lux squishy one in the boutique. I only buy the item I try on IRL. Not some shrink wrapped one in the back.


----------



## nsughtnsugahyde

@880 I agree with everything in that statement except she’d be all about Schiaparelli.  The original tweed suit that we still know today was a complete ripoff of Schiaparelli. They feuded but Coco revered her. However, Coco did set on fire. Literally set Elsa Schiaparelli ablaze.

@ntntgo is that correct?  Thought I read that somewhere


----------



## JamaisAssez

880 said:


> I believe that Chanel simply sees all bags as money makers.


My completely uneducated, uninformed guestimate ball park would be that Chanel's sales is composed of:

60% handbags
20% fashion (ready-to-wear and shoes)
14% SLGs + costume jewellery
5% watches & fine jewellery
1% high jewellery

Of course this excludes CHANEL Beauty, about which I know nothing.


----------



## ntntgo

zaraha said:


> @ntntgo I found you on IG!  I think that’s you!


If it’s private & a blonde in the PicCollage then that’s me.


----------



## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> My completely uneducated, uninformed guestimate ball park would be that Chanel's sales is composed of:
> 
> 60% handbags
> 20% ready-to-wear
> 14% SLGs + costume jewellery
> 5% watches & fine jewellery
> 1% high jewellery
> 
> Of course this excludes CHANEL Beauty, about which I know nothing.


I think that's a pretty good stab at the percentages....I think the cosmetics/ beauty segment more than outweighs ALL of fashion...


----------



## ntntgo

nsughtnsugahyde said:


> @880 I agree with everything in that statement except she’d be all about Schiaparelli.  The original tweed suit that we still know today was a complete ripoff of Schiaparelli. They feuded but Coco revered her. However, Coco did set on fire. Literally set Elsa Schiaparelli ablaze.
> 
> @ntntgo is that correct?  Thought I read that somewhere


I do know that she loved Schiaperelli but there was a lot of competitiveness but are you asking if she set Elsa, the person on fire or her Altelier?


JamaisAssez said:


> My completely uneducated, uninformed guestimate ball park would be that Chanel's sales is composed of:
> 
> 60% handbags
> 20% ready-to-wear
> 14% SLGs + costume jewellery
> 5% watches & fine jewellery
> 1% high jewellery
> 
> Of course this excludes CHANEL Beauty, about which I know nothing.


Are we talking gross revenue or quantity of sales?


----------



## ntntgo

EpiFanatic said:


> Thank you for sharing your knowledge.  I’ve enjoyed reading your posts so much. Your mom sounds like a boss and I am imagining her walking in those private rooms showing those well dressed ladies the latest collections. Did she also have to hold a number?


You’re very sweet.  My mom was indeed a boss. I miss her every minute of every day.


----------



## JamaisAssez

TraceySH said:


> I think that's a pretty good stab at the percentages....I think the cosmetics/ beauty segment more than outweighs ALL of fashion...





ntntgo said:


> Are we talking gross revenue or quantity of sales?



I've completely neglected fragrance as well, which is also big business. Of course there is also Haute Couture, but I highly doubt that this category makes up for say even 5% of the company's gross revenue, even though it is arguably the most important category for the company to keep as a means to an end (aka marketing to drive sales of other categories and brand image, prestige and influence).


----------



## gail13

I happened to talk to one of my SA's today when making another purchase and she told me there are lots of 22 and 19 tote bags being returned for quality issues and fear of quality issues. Apparently another YouTuber is having more problems with her 22. I don't watch this YouTuber really but I know she first discovered problems with her bag several weeks ago. I'm sure she will be taken care of especially because she posts alot of content but as of now she is not too sure what will happen.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> I happened to talk to one of my SA's today when making another purchase and she told me there are lots of 22 and 19 tote bags being returned for quality issues and fear of quality issues. Apparently another YouTuber is having more problems with her 22. I don't watch this YouTuber really but I know she first discovered problems with her bag several weeks ago. I'm sure she will be taken care of especially because she posts alot of content but as of now she is not too sure what will happen.



I cannot believe they told her to wear it, and would refund it if any issues came up. And now they are sending it off to be investigated?? Maybe best case scenario she gets a credit? That’s not right. I saw the first video & she clearly reached out to them to gauge if she should just return before any issues came up. They totally didn’t stand by what they said. Very disappointing.


----------



## ntntgo

gail13 said:


> @ntntgo please DM me. As a long time client also, I think you would enjoy attending a private event I am going to.


That is so kind. I will DM you. It will depend on where you live & the date. I’m leaving for Europe 1 Sept.
I‘d be happy to return the favor. I was invited to the shoe in Miami which is be happy to have a guest or 2:


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> I cannot believe they told her to wear it, and would refund it if any issues came up. And now they are sending it off to be investigated?? Maybe best case scenario she gets a credit? That’s not right. I saw the first video & she clearly reached out to them to gauge if she should just return before any issues came up. They totally didn’t stand by what they said. Very disappointing.


Well I asked my SA if I had any cracking or peeling would I be able to return and she told me no, it would need to go thru repairs, so I passed. I hated to leave that Rose Gold 22 behind it was so pretty, but I did not want to deal with a bag being sent to repair.


----------



## ntntgo

bagsaremyjam said:


> You’re definitely entitled to your opinion. The last few years I’ve purchased a Cocodile Gabrielle, mini caviar with top handle, a few backpacks, a couple 19’s in goatskin, a seasonal flap, a WOC. All are incredibly well made and I didn’t have to look through several (meaning more than 2 to 3), often not even having a choice to choose, which is drastically different from my experience purchasing 5 years ago. I have also heard SA’s and influencers talking about noticeable quality with these bags as well.
> 
> I’ve seen vintage Chanel bags made incredibly well, and I’ve also seen some with cheap interior linings that many of us would never find acceptable today.
> 
> We all have different experiences but I’ve actually noticed improved quality with many bags.


Crocodile embossed.  Not crocodile. Big difference


----------



## bagsaremyjam

ntntgo said:


> Crocodile embossed.  Not crocodile. Big difference


I never said crocodile. Reread my comment. I love how you think I don’t know the difference between a crocodile and crocodile embossed bag. And how you correct me on it as if you’re certain you’re right.

The name for the bag is a Cocodile Gabrielle. But thanks for the failed correction attempt on a bag I own.


----------



## zaraha

ntntgo said:


> If it’s private & a blonde in the PicCollage then that’s me.


Yes that’s you! You are Beautiful! I sent a request to follow you if it’s ok with you (IG Jasmin).


----------



## zaraha

JamaisAssez said:


> My completely uneducated, uninformed guestimate ball park would be that Chanel's sales is composed of:
> 
> 60% handbags
> 20% fashion (ready-to-wear and shoes)
> 14% SLGs + costume jewellery
> 5% watches & fine jewellery
> 1% high jewellery
> 
> Of course this excludes CHANEL Beauty, about which I know nothing.


Interesting! Mind sharing any source of information used for this guesstimate?


----------



## 880

bagsaremyjam said:


> I never said crocodile. Reread my comment. I love how you think I don’t know the difference between a crocodile and crocodile embossed bag. And how you correct me on it as if you’re certain you’re right.
> 
> The name for the bag is a Cocodile Gabrielle. But thanks for the failed correction attempt on a bag I own.


@bagsaremyjam , I didn’t read any animus directed to you in the subsequent croc clarification. I did get some valuable info from it. Even assuming bad intent, it’s more constructive to the thread continuation to ignore rather than respond like above.

 I reread your original post several times, and i incorrectly assumed real crocodile and some autocorrect issue. I was going to google the year when chanel ceased using exotics. (I thought perhaps your Gabrielle dated from that year. It never occurred to me that chanel would use croc embossed leather bc my SA laughed when I said I wanted a stingray bag, and she joked textile is now Chanel’s exotic.

when I googled cocodile, I got many references to croc Gabrielle that was made with cocodile croc embossed leather. ( google didn’t pull up any direct chanel copy for the bag) so to the casual reader, chanel is described as calling its embossed leather cocodile ,not the bag.  Regardless, Chanel is being more disingenuous than tongue in cheek here. JMO. I clearly won’t stop buying the brand.

here are two pieces dated 03A that are fabric croc embossed, and more tongue in cheek than disingenuous. No true ambiguity except a faux effect bc the material is not leather. As I typed this, I wish that chanel had chosen a toile, canvas or hard wearing fabric of some kind for the 19 tote or the 22 rather than a problematic leather. The price could have remained the same, as evidenced by past bags. Or even the dior tapestry.


----------



## pinky7

Been watching/lurking in this thread for a little while now, just wanted to say this is wild lol. Thank you to Tracey for sharing these experiences with us and saving us the $5k+ on the 19 tote and the 22 by showing us and informing us of just how poorly they wear out. I don’t mind my leather being heavily treated as natural leathers (such as Hermes leathers) can be difficult to integrate into daily life all of the time I.e. snow, rain, sleet where I live, but with that I expect a high level of durability- the kind you’d get from caviar, not peeling like in the first photos. In this sense, I feel the brand is getting a little too rich for my blood, personally and will definitely avoid those 2 models like the plague and instead buy something else like a preowned Jypsiere instead

PS- I will say that the regular flap version of the 19 still looks good and i love the fact that she poured all sorts of craziness over it and it still held up well, makes me almost want to buy one in the future (when it becomes a good preloved bargain of course)


----------



## ntntgo

bagsaremyjam said:


> I never said crocodile. Reread my comment. I love how you think I don’t know the difference between a crocodile and crocodile embossed bag. And how you correct me on it as if you’re certain you’re right.
> 
> The name for the bag is a Cocodile Gabrielle. But thanks for the failed correction attempt on a bag I own.


Why are you just looking to argue?  I was clarifying as there are several people on this thread who likely didn’t know that you meant that is was crocodile embossed.  Even someone as seasoned a buyer as @880 looked it up to see when the exotics were discontinued as even she was confused by the description, and she clearly has a vast collection.
By the way, if your intention was to use the actual name of the bag, it is was called “Croc Embossed Calfskin Hobo with Logo Strap”.  Just to be clear.
I have been very respectful to everyone including you, while I have watched you just rip in to people.  I’m unclear as to why you‘re so angry at everyone that doesn’t agree with you.  
If this thread is so upsetting to you then you should just not be involved in it.  I’ve left many threads over the years that infuriated me but, I never treated people the way you have on this thread.
I have avoided you as best I could on this thread as I didn’t feel that it was constructive to argue with someone who is just on here to argue.
My comment was a clarification, not a jab at you.  We are supposed to be a community on TPF that is being helpful, supportive and above all, respectful.
You attacking me only makes you look bad, not me.


----------



## ntntgo

880 said:


> @bagsaremyjam , I didn’t read any animus directed to you in the subsequent croc clarification. I did get some valuable info from it. Even assuming bad intent, it’s more constructive to the thread continuation to ignore rather than respond like above.
> 
> I reread your original post several times, and i incorrectly assumed real crocodile and some autocorrect issue. I was going to google the year when chanel ceased using exotics. (I thought perhaps your Gabrielle dated from that year. It never occurred to me that chanel would use croc embossed leather bc my SA laughed when I said I wanted a stingray bag, and she joked textile is now Chanel’s exotic.
> 
> when I googled cocodile, I got many references to croc Gabrielle that was made with cocodile croc embossed leather. ( google didn’t pull up any direct chanel copy for the bag) so to the casual reader, chanel is described as calling its embossed leather cocodile ,not the bag.  Regardless, Chanel is being more disingenuous than tongue in cheek here. JMO. I clearly won’t stop buying the brand.
> 
> here are two pieces dated 03A that are fabric croc embossed, and more tongue in cheek than disingenuous. No true ambiguity except a faux effect bc the material is not leather. As I typed this, I wish that chanel had chosen a toile, canvas or hard wearing fabric of some kind for the 19 tote or the 22 rather than a problematic leather. The price could have remained the same, as evidenced by past bags. Or even the dior tapestry.
> 
> View attachment 5581479


You are 100% correct and thank you for sharing your beautiful pieces.  The clothes were so much better quality back then.
Also, and I know that you know this so this is for others, Chanel only used alligator and called it crocodile until they were questioned.
I bought a beautiful grey “crocodile” jumbo some years ago at a hefty price, only to find out that it was alligator.  I kept it for a bit then sold it.  It was beautiful and my Camillia advisor did answer me truthfully when I questioned whether it was actually crocodile but if I’m paying for crocodile, I want actual crocodile as is on my Birkins.


----------



## JamaisAssez

ntntgo said:


> I have avoided you as best I could on this thread as I didn’t feel that it was constructive to argue with someone who is just on here to argue.


And you are very classy for doing so. Thank you for being helpful and respectful just like @TraceySH, @gail13 and @880 have been. Best to just not engage and acknowledge. Not worth our time.


----------



## ntntgo

zaraha said:


> Yes that’s you! You are Beautiful! I sent a request to follow you if it’s ok with you (IG Jasmin).


Hi.  I accepted.  I think you’ll be disappointed as I rarely post pictures of my bags, shoes or jewelry on social media.  I was robbed a few years ago and I was told by a family member who is a sheriff in Nashville that posting my items on social media is a sure way to invite theft.  Even with as a sophisticated security system as we have and the additional one on my closet.  But, you’ll see some.  Mostly, you’ll see my dogs, and friends and occasionally complete outfits.
My FB has an album of my mom’s modeling pictures though. On FB I can control who sees what pictures.  You’re welcome to send me a FR there if you’d like.
I look forward to interacting with you as I am certain that you have beautiful collection pictures.
ET for autocorrect fix.


----------



## ntntgo

JamaisAssez said:


> And you are very classy for doing so. Thank you for being helpful and respectful just like @TraceySH, @gail13 and @880 have been. Best to just not engage and acknowledge. Not worth our time.


Thank you for your kind comment.  I try not to engage with people like her as that’s not how I’ve ever addressed people on TPF.  However, in this case I was clarifying for others, not attacking her.  I’m unclear why she thought that, as it seems no one else did.


----------



## 880

JamaisAssez said:


> My completely uneducated, uninformed guestimate ball park would be that Chanel's sales is composed of:
> 
> 60% handbags
> 20% fashion (ready-to-wear and shoes)
> 14% SLGs + costume jewellery
> 5% watches & fine jewellery
> 1% high jewellery
> 
> Of course this excludes CHANEL Beauty, about which I know nothing.


I wish someone with an insiders background in the corporate growth and branding of premier fashion houses (as opposed to luxury ) could chime in  I was scrooging around on line and making up key word searches to see if there was, for example, an HBS case study pie chart somewhere lol.

i did come up with the factoid that the chanel global CEO worldwide is now a unilever executive. The blurb emphasized that the ceo did not have a fashion background but rather product. And different fashion houses have different emphasis on business models (why some reserve in store experience for high paying individuals, and therefore don’t sell RTW on e-commerce, whereas others have diffusion or bridge lines that might sell t shirts on ecommerce.

also chanel recently purchased a leather manufacturing in France

ETA: I assume it’s safe to post objects here on TPF (in terms of risk assessment for IRL theft,
 if you are not otherwise on social media. And disable geo locator, IDK

BTW, re chanel items that are overly distressed to the point of unreasonable wear on a New retail piece. When I grumbled to my very experienced SA in 2003 about the excessive distressing on the sleeves of my brand new croc printed fabric jacket, I specifically complained about the fact that the material might develop holes in the course of normal wear. It’s the on,y time I can recall asking if there was another item to compare it to. She said they were all like that. She said this was brought up in the manufacture, and KL specifically said that this was not an issue for him; he actually said his clients, the very wealthy, who may only wear an item once, would not care. So, i can easily see him stating the same about a bag. Given this attitude, I am not certain he would care if a bag peeled after a few months or weeks of wear.


----------



## nsughtnsugahyde

ntntgo said:


> I do know that she loved Schiaperelli but there was a lot of competitiveness but are you asking if she set Elsa, the person on fire or her Altelier?
> 
> Are we talking gross revenue or quantity of sales?





ntntgo said:


> I do know that she loved Schiaperelli but there was a lot of competitiveness but are you asking if she set Elsa, the person on fire or her Altelier?
> 
> I’m not sure. I just remember reading something about that a long time ago.
> 
> I had to edit this because I’m new and I’m still a little confused as to how to reply to one comment when they’re grouped. Sorry guys.


----------



## papertiger

ntntgo said:


> You are 100% correct and thank you for sharing your beautiful pieces.  The clothes were so much better quality back then.
> Also, and I know that you know this so this is for others, Chanel only used alligator and called it crocodile until they were questioned.
> I bought a beautiful grey “crocodile” jumbo some years ago at a hefty price, only to find out that it was alligator.  I kept it for a bit then sold it.  It was beautiful and my Camillia advisor did answer me truthfully when I questioned whether it was actually crocodile but if I’m paying for crocodile, I want actual crocodile as is on my Birkins.



This happens a lot as @Christofle and I speculated on another thread. I have Chanel python jackets (before their decision to not make any more exotics) but have had other brands '*Crocodylidae' * As required by CITES the exact species and family is required on the paperwork. I'm sure one my croc Guccis in in fact alligator, I can see on their website some of the 'python' looks suspiciously like cobra and so forth. I don't mind croc or alligator, nor python or cobra, just like to a) have the paperwork correct and not be paying for one when I'm receiving another. 

Embossed croc - from any company, Chanel included, is another indicator of a slump in expectations and exclusivity. Those against exotics wouldn't be buying one anyway, and as we know everything is governed by commercial decisions in business not ethics. 

@gail13 Regarding 22s, Michelle Wang does a vid where she shows her bag is not peeling or defective. She also thought it only affected the metallic until she other YT vids posted by owners of solid colours. My eyes must be tired because apart from the added wrinkles on Romina's (obviously the beautiful metallic) I can't see cracks. Not saying they're not there but maybe don't come across on camera. The finishing on metallic leather is always tricky, like metallic eyeshadow on less than perfect eyelids, it will show every possible defect (or perceived defect) a lot more easily. Actual cracking or peeling is another issue as OP's 19 Tote shows.


----------



## papertiger

JamaisAssez said:


> My completely uneducated, uninformed guestimate ball park would be that Chanel's sales is composed of:
> 
> 60% handbags
> 20% fashion (ready-to-wear and shoes)
> 14% SLGs + costume jewellery
> 5% watches & fine jewellery
> 1% high jewellery
> 
> Of course this excludes CHANEL Beauty, about which I know nothing.



Guess is all we can do regards Chanel, they even prefer to pay fines every year rather than file financial or other data.

I don't know whether you mean units sold, space allotted to, net or gross profit with your guesstimates . It's another topic, but Chanel is far more reliant on its beauty as profitable affordable luxury rather than accessories, bags included. They make a very large profit on couture, never mind RTW, one of the only Maisons to do so. Couture is a whole other story.

The Wertheimers who own Chanel came to Paris from Alsace 1870 at the time of Franco-Prussian war (Alsace used to be a part of Germany, Prussia won and Germany was formed in 1871). They owned Bourjois, who then helped develop Chanel's fragrances and later makeup. When Chanel died in 1971, they bought her (then quite tired looking - I have a bag from then) business and have been owning/running it ever since. Recently  Coty (US) bought Bourjois from Chanel in 2014 (I think the date's correct) as well as financial, Chanel now own 4.2% stake in Coty as part of the deal whilst allowing Chanel to concentrate on luxury. Chanel Beauty, fragrances and skincare probably (guessing too) accounts for more than 50% of all profits as it's not only sold in more places, to many, many more people, higher in stock turnover, but the mark-ups are way more than on any bag.


----------



## 880

papertiger said:


> Embossed croc - from any company, Chanel included, is another indicator of a slump in expectations and exclusivity. Those against exotics wouldn't be buying one anyway, and as we know everything is governed by commercial decisions in business not ethics.


So, chanel makes its bags in Italy in factories that employ unskilled, poorly compensated Chinese workers who labor in an assembly line of machines.

It uses pressed or embossed leather in some bags. In others, like metallics or special finishes, its treated leather has not lasted weeks?  of wear without peeling, discoloring, or other issue.

My excuse for buying RTW sweaters these days is they come from a well known French brand that also puts out its own line. The sweaters I buy I extend to wear for decades. Thats why I pulled up an old thread from 2009 re the price rationalization of buying a bag or costume accessory versus RTW. In 2009, many contributors felt that a chanel bag would outlast a garment.





						Price Rationalization, bags vs costume jewelry vs RTW
					

I think the modern Chanel costume jewelry is a rip off for the price you pay. Rhinestones and beads are glued on and fall off. The ends of tassles are finished in an amateur fashion with findings that can be bought at a bead store. I know I have examined them and will never buy them. However I...




					forum.purseblog.com


----------



## Love Of My Life

Under the umbrella of Chanel Maisons d'Art are these special ateliers which some of you may or
may not know & exactly what they contribute to Chanel

Les Atelieres Lognon (pleats)
Atelier Montex (embroidery)
Maison Massaro ( custom shoes)
Goosens (jewelry)
LaMarie(feathers, camelias)
Maison Michel(hats & millinery)
Maison Desrues (buttons)

While I think it's important that any & all information should be shared openly, respectfully & factually
many of us have learned much more than we probably expected about Chanel handbags & I do
think that you have the client who does her research before making her purchase & then the client
who will walk into a boutique or department store & just buy what she likes, JMO
I don't think Chanel will ever be as transparent as many of us would like unfortunately


----------



## gail13

waterlily112 said:


> Oops this was not supposed to be quoted sorry!





papertiger said:


> @gail13 Regarding 22s, Michelle Wang does a vid where she shows her bag is not peeling or defective. She also thought it only affected the metallic until she other YT vids posted by owners of solid colours. My eyes must be tired because apart from the added wrinkles on Romina's (obviously the beautiful metallic) I can't see cracks. Not saying they're not there but maybe don't come across on camera. The finishing on metallic leather is always tricky, like metallic eyeshadow on less than perfect eyelids, it will show every possible defect (or perceived defect) a lot more easily. Actual cracking or peeling is another issue as OP's 19 Tote shows.


I love the reference to metallic eyeshadow, its such a perfect analogy and I cant unsee it now lol. 

I saw the Michelle Wang video about the same time Romina and Super Dacob came out with their video's.  The only reason I mention it is because I think the 22 and the 19 tote use a similar finish and product.  SD had this same peeling on his pink 22 non metallic bag. Romina did a video prior to this showing the same type of peeling at the inside edges on her 22,  where the casing /chains meet. She bought it in and was told by Chanel to use the bag and not worry about it. Then this week apparently she notices other cracking and she can see below the color.  

Wondering if this is a reason that Hermes who is truly a leather house, does not use metallic finishes for their bags?


----------



## ntntgo

papertiger said:


> Guess is all we can do regards Chanel, they even prefer to pay fines every year rather than file financial or other data.
> 
> I don't know whether you mean units sold, space allotted to, net or gross profit with your guesstimates . It's another topic, but Chanel is far more reliant on its beauty as profitable affordable luxury rather than accessories, bags included. They make a very large profit on couture, never mind RTW, one of the only Maisons to do so. Couture is a whole other story.
> 
> The Wertheimers who own Chanel came to Paris from Alsace 1870 at the time of Franco-Prussian war (Alsace used to be a part of Germany, Prussia won and Germany was formed in 1871). They owned Bourjois, who then helped develop Chanel's fragrances and later makeup. When Chanel died in 1971, they bought her (then quite tired looking - I have a bag from then) business and have been owning/running it ever since. Recently  Coty (US) bought Bourjois from Chanel in 2014 (I think the date's correct) as well as financial, Chanel now own 4.2% stake in Coty as part of the deal whilst allowing Chanel to concentrate on luxury. Chanel Beauty, fragrances and skincare probably (guessing too) accounts for more than 50% of all profits as it's not only sold in more places, to many, many more people, higher in stock turnover, but the mark-ups are way more than on any bag.


I’m not sure this is entirely correct. The Pierre Wertheimer initially invested in the perfume business only. Then after Coco was forced out of France and wanted to return to her couturier and leather business, she negotiated the lawsuit she had brought against him pre-WW2 because she needed money. That’s when they got I think 80%ish of the whole company. 
The Wertheimers are VCs and they have Chanel, along with all of their other companies under Mousse Partners.  They are moving more toward healthcare & biotech. But they are invested or own 61 companies. Chanel being only one of those. 
I do find it interesting that the CEO that you reference came from Unilever as @880 stated. That’s something I was unaware of. Unilever is of my direct report’s accounts. So that is very worth exploring. 
Thanks a lot, now I’m down the rabbit hole on this and it’s totally OT. Sorry OP.


----------



## ntntgo

gail13 said:


> I love the reference to metallic eyeshadow, its such a perfect analogy and I cant unsee it now lol.
> 
> I saw the Michelle Wang video about the same time Romina and Super Dacob came out with their video's.  The only reason I mention it is because I think the 22 and the 19 tote use a similar finish and product.  SD had this same peeling on his pink 22 non metallic bag. Romina did a video prior to this showing the same type of peeling at the inside edges on her 22,  where the casing /chains meet. She bought it in and was told by Chanel to use the bag and not worry about it. Then this week apparently she notices other cracking and she can see below the color.
> 
> Wondering if this is a reason that Hermes who is truly a leather house, does not use metallic finishes for their bags?


Laughing at the “metallic eyeshadow” comment. Now I have to go rewatch it.


----------



## 880

gail13 said:


> I love the reference to metallic eyeshadow, its such a perfect analogy and I cant unsee it now lol.
> 
> I saw the Michelle Wang video about the same time Romina and Super Dacob came out with their video's.  The only reason I mention it is because I think the 22 and the 19 tote use a similar finish and product.  SD had this same peeling on his pink 22 non metallic bag. Romina did a video prior to this showing the same type of peeling at the inside edges on her 22,  where the casing /chains meet. She bought it in and was told by Chanel to use the bag and not worry about it. Then this week apparently she notices other cracking and she can see below the color.
> 
> Wondering if this is a reason that Hermes who is truly a leather house, does not use metallic finishes for their bags?


Hermes did use metallic finish. I have a silver chèvre clutch bought from a reseller in Japan. It was reconditioned to almost new by @docride. It’s sturdy. I’ve been thinking about a metallic orange plume on my watch list for years. I have not purchased bc I would so much rather have gunmetal gray or even champagne. . . Not sure what they were thinking. there is also a bronze TPM Evelyn thats been hanging around resale. . .

ETA: I buy metallics. They’ve all lasted, even the striped metallic blue  chanel one. idkw
bottega makes phenomenal metallics too


----------



## gail13

Love Of My Life said:


> Under the umbrella of Chanel Maisons d'Art are these special ateliers which some of you may or
> may not know & exactly what they contribute to Chanel
> 
> Les Atelieres Lognon (pleats)
> Atelier Montex (embroidery)
> Maison Massaro ( custom shoes)
> Goosens (jewelry)
> LaMarie(feathers, camelias)
> Maison Michel(hats & millinery)
> Maison Desrues (buttons)
> 
> While I think it's important that any & all information should be shared openly, respectfully & factually
> many of us have learned much more than we probably expected about Chanel handbags & I do
> think that you have the client who does her research before making her purchase & then the client
> who will walk into a boutique or department store & just buy what she likes, JMO
> I don't think Chanel will ever be as transparent as many of us would like unfortunately


This is what Chanel refers to as Paraffection and they all collaborate with Chanel.  There is info out there about relationships with other small manufacturers throughout Italy and Spain. There are mentions of leather tanneries Chanel has acquired but to me what is noticeably absent is the discussion about the quality of leathers and processes used on their products.


----------



## ntntgo

Love Of My Life said:


> Under the umbrella of Chanel Maisons d'Art are these special ateliers which some of you may or
> may not know & exactly what they contribute to Chanel
> 
> Les Atelieres Lognon (pleats)
> Atelier Montex (embroidery)
> Maison Massaro ( custom shoes)
> Goosens (jewelry)
> LaMarie(feathers, camelias)
> Maison Michel(hats & millinery)
> Maison Desrues (buttons)
> 
> While I think it's important that any & all information should be shared openly, respectfully & factually
> many of us have learned much more than we probably expected about Chanel handbags & I do
> think that you have the client who does her research before making her purchase & then the client
> who will walk into a boutique or department store & just buy what she likes, JMO
> I don't think Chanel will ever be as transparent as many of us would like unfortunately


LaMarie ended their partnership with Chanel. They are the ones who made the Camellia flowers and all of the feathers for both haute & pret. My understanding is the period where boxes were being sent out with the hard, almost plastic flowers was because Chanel had to find someone else to make the flowers or maybe they started making them in their Chinese factory themselves. IDK.


----------



## gail13

880 said:


> Hermes did use metallic finish. I have a silver chèvre clutch bought from a reseller in Japan. It was reconditioned to almost new by @docride. It’s sturdy. I’ve been thinking about a metallic orange plume on my watch list for years.


I stand corrected! I have not seen metallic from Hermes and assumed its because its hard to do.


----------



## rainbowneko

papertiger said:


> Guess is all we can do regards Chanel, they even prefer to pay fines every year rather than file financial or other data.
> 
> I don't know whether you mean units sold, space allotted to, net or gross profit with your guesstimates . It's another topic, but Chanel is far more reliant on its beauty as profitable affordable luxury rather than accessories, bags included. They make a very large profit on couture, never mind RTW, one of the only Maisons to do so. Couture is a whole other story.
> 
> The Wertheimers who own Chanel came to Paris from Alsace 1870 at the time of Franco-Prussian war (Alsace used to be a part of Germany, Prussia won and Germany was formed in 1871). They owned Bourjois, who then helped develop Chanel's fragrances and later makeup. When Chanel died in 1971, they bought her (then quite tired looking - I have a bag from then) business and have been owning/running it ever since. Recently  Coty (US) bought Bourjois from Chanel in 2014 (I think the date's correct) as well as financial, Chanel now own 4.2% stake in Coty as part of the deal whilst allowing Chanel to concentrate on luxury. Chanel Beauty, fragrances and skincare probably (guessing too) accounts for more than 50% of all profits as it's not only sold in more places, to many, many more people, higher in stock turnover, but the mark-ups are way more than on any bag.


Thanks for sharing this information... is it possible that both Bourjois and Chanel Beauty products are manufactured under the same facility? o.o Because i do own both Bourjois and Chanel foundation, they both have the same smell!


----------



## ntntgo

880 said:


> Hermes did use metallic finish. I have a silver chèvre clutch bought from a reseller in Japan. It was reconditioned to almost new by @docride. It’s sturdy. I’ve been thinking about a metallic orange plume on my watch list for years. I have not purchased bc I would so much rather have gunmetal gray or even champagne. . . Not sure what they were thinking. there is also a bronze TPM Evelyn thats been hanging around resale. . .


Hermes uses an actual metallic color as Chanel used to on lambskin. Now Chanel coats it rather than spending the money to actually mix the colors. They’re all Pantone colors that Chanel could easily use. They just choose to overlay it now. 
One of my custom Chanels is a Pantone color that I brought them the number to on the outside and a different one on the inside. So I l know that they can do it.


----------



## papertiger

gail13 said:


> I love the reference to metallic eyeshadow, its such a perfect analogy and I cant unsee it now lol.
> 
> I saw the Michelle Wang video about the same time Romina and Super Dacob came out with their video's.  The only reason I mention it is because I think the 22 and the 19 tote use a similar finish and product.  SD had this same peeling on his pink 22 non metallic bag. Romina did a video prior to this showing the same type of peeling at the inside edges on her 22,  where the casing /chains meet. She bought it in and was told by Chanel to use the bag and not worry about it. Then this week apparently she notices other cracking and she can see below the color.
> 
> *Wondering if this is a reason that Hermes who is truly a leather house, does not use metallic finishes for their bags?*



They have used metallic finishes on severely ltd. Eds. but yes it probably is. On the other hands I have metallic and mirror finishes on BVs, Guccis, Tanner Krolle (I think they were owned by Chanel then) Balenciaga and Sergio Rossi and they are more than a decade old. On smooth, structured bags there's less problem, IMO, the issue comes from the need for hobos to be ultra-flexible but strong whatever the finish and/or the rubbing/stretching of the leather against or stretching of the fine metallic finish. My Chanel lambskins (that have chains) are protected by the metal hardware they travel through, and the threaded leather through the chain (if the bags have them - 3 of mine do) are protected because the angle of the threading doesn't allow for chaffing or stretching when passing through. Also my softest, most hobo (sort of) style is my backpack. Once it's on my back (or shoulder) I'm not really opening and closing. I think perhaps, the straps have to do too much on the 19 and 22, they seem to be constantly by traveling through the holes to be worn and opening closing, that's a lot of wear and tear very quickly.


----------



## TraceySH

rainbowneko said:


> Thanks for sharing this information... is it possible that both Bourjois and Chanel Beauty products are manufactured under the same facility? o.o Because i do own both Bourjois and Chanel foundation, they both have the same smell!


Chanel opening (if not already) a monster facility in Austin, TX to manufacture beauty products in the USA.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

880 said:


> @bagsaremyjam , I didn’t read any animus directed to you in the subsequent croc clarification. I did get some valuable info from it. Even assuming bad intent, it’s more constructive to the thread continuation to ignore rather than respond like above.
> 
> I reread your original post several times, and i incorrectly assumed real crocodile and some autocorrect issue. I was going to google the year when chanel ceased using exotics. (I thought perhaps your Gabrielle dated from that year. It never occurred to me that chanel would use croc embossed leather bc my SA laughed when I said I wanted a stingray bag, and she joked textile is now Chanel’s exotic.
> 
> when I googled cocodile, I got many references to croc Gabrielle that was made with cocodile croc embossed leather. ( google didn’t pull up any direct chanel copy for the bag) so to the casual reader, chanel is described as calling its embossed leather cocodile ,not the bag.  Regardless, Chanel is being more disingenuous than tongue in cheek here. JMO. I clearly won’t stop buying the brand.
> 
> here are two pieces dated 03A that are fabric croc embossed, and more tongue in cheek than disingenuous. No true ambiguity except a faux effect bc the material is not leather. As I typed this, I wish that chanel had chosen a toile, canvas or hard wearing fabric of some kind for the 19 tote or the 22 rather than a problematic leather. The price could have remained the same, as evidenced by past bags. Or even the dior tapestry.
> 
> View attachment 5581479


You may not have taken it the wrong way, but for someone to tell me what kind of bag I own when I’ve been purchasing bags since I was a teen, like I don’t know the difference between a very expensive exotic skin (which I would never purchase) and an embossed one, I felt was in bad taste. To me the comment came off condescending. I think from the posts I’ve made one could guess I’d likely know the difference, and she could’ve approached it a better way.

Just because my response was sarcastic doesn’t mean it was animus at all. You may be reading it that way, but in no way was it malevolent. It was a very direct response, albeit sarcastic.


----------



## papertiger

rainbowneko said:


> Thanks for sharing this information... is it possible that both Bourjois and Chanel Beauty products are manufactured under the same facility? o.o Because i do own both Bourjois and Chanel foundation, they both have the same smell!



It's possible they have a similar original fragrance (or product masks - fragrance they use to mask key ingredients). I have both too (Bourjois and Chanel) and happy with things I've purchased. A lot more R&D goes into Chanel and the packaging is obviously far more upmarket on Chanel. It's a fairly recent acquisition (Coty also make for a lot of other brands including MJ, OPI, Calvin Klein etc but they need some hits) so we'll probably see a stronger distinction in the future. It's actually a benefit to Coty than Chanel have shares in the company.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

ntntgo said:


> Why are you just looking to argue?  I was clarifying as there are several people on this thread who likely didn’t know that you meant that is was crocodile embossed.  Even someone as seasoned a buyer as @880 looked it up to see when the exotics were discontinued as even she was confused by the description, and she clearly has a vast collection.
> By the way, if your intention was to use the actual name of the bag, it is was called “Croc Embossed Calfskin Hobo with Logo Strap”.  Just to be clear.
> I have been very respectful to everyone including you, while I have watched you just rip in to people.  I’m unclear as to why you‘re so angry at everyone that doesn’t agree with you.
> If this thread is so upsetting to you then you should just not be involved in it.  I’ve left many threads over the years that infuriated me but, I never treated people the way you have on this thread.
> I have avoided you as best I could on this thread as I didn’t feel that it was constructive to argue with someone who is just on here to argue.
> My comment was a clarification, not a jab at you.  We are supposed to be a community on TPF that is being helpful, supportive and above all, respectful.
> You attacking me only makes you look bad, not me.


Attacking you? Are we reading the same comment here??

I’m not looking to argue, I just take offense that you’re correcting me and still continue to correct me on a bag I own. A crocodile bag from Chanel would cost a minimum of $30K and I would never buy an exotic skin bag. If you’ve read the posts you might gather I would know the difference between an exotic and an embossed skin.

There could have been a nicer approach from you. Not a full blown, I stand corrected stance. I was very direct and sarcastic, at worst. If you’re taking my comment as a reason to argue, you’re incorrect. Just like I took your comment to be condescending, and apparently that seems to be incorrect from what you’re writing.

To say I ripped others on here is untrue. I mentioned a comparison was delusional, but I’ve never ripped anyone on this thread, just like I never called anyone delusional. I feel you’re extreme with your statements and take out of context in regards to how direct I am. 

I’ve been voicing my opinions which greatly differ from yours and stating so with conviction. I hardly think that rips other people. And I’ve always respected people on this platform. Writing can intensify words when written quickly and directly and is void of inflection, so I guess that doesn’t help. I’m certainly not angry. I just have a strong point of view. 

And yes, the name of this bag is indeed called The Cocodile Gabrielle. You can see that on sites like Fashionphile and that was also the name on the Chanel website when it came out.


----------



## rainbowneko

TraceySH said:


> Chanel opening (if not already) a monster facility in Austin, TX to manufacture beauty products in the USA.


I'm based in Asia so maybe I haven't come across made in USA Chanel products in my country yet!
Really eye-opening that Chanel Beauty is expanding rapidly...


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> To say I ripped others on here is untrue. I mentioned a comparison was delusional, *but I’ve never ripped anyone on this thread*, just like I never called anyone delusional. I feel you’re extreme with your statements and take out of context in regards to how direct I am.
> 
> I’ve been voicing my opinions which greatly differ from yours and stating so with conviction. I hardly think that rips other people. *And I’ve always respected people on this platform.* Writing can intensify words when written quickly and directly and is void of inflection, so I guess that doesn’t help. I’m certainly not angry. I just have a strong point of view.


Except your very disrespectful post to me that was 100% personal, that the mods had to delete.


----------



## HauteRN

TraceySH said:


> I could tell you stories that wound make you twist like Linda Blair. One day I will document them. One of the better ones was getting boy bag in Hawaii. They had 3. First came out with all the hardware having fallen off in the box. Second was missing the under clasp. Like what is going on????
> 
> And I love my SA. Sacrificed a ton over the years, so I “wanted” it to be what it was supposed to be. Didn’t always end up that way. But like many on here, and I’ve said it before, there’s a big prescient of cognitive dissonance in any luxury purchasing.
> 
> So I’m getting older. Will be 50 next month, and I just don’t care enough anymore for all the drama. I feel like Kathy Bates in Fried Green Tomatoes.


Towandaaaa is my alter ego


----------



## bagsaremyjam

ntntgo said:


> Why are you just looking to argue?  I was clarifying as there are several people on this thread who likely didn’t know that you meant that is was crocodile embossed.  Even someone as seasoned a buyer as @880 looked it up to see when the exotics were discontinued as even she was confused by the description, and she clearly has a vast collection.
> By the way, if your intention was to use the actual name of the bag, it is was called “Croc Embossed Calfskin Hobo with Logo Strap”.  Just to be clear.
> I have been very respectful to everyone including you, while I have watched you just rip in to people.  I’m unclear as to why you‘re so angry at everyone that doesn’t agree with you.
> If this thread is so upsetting to you then you should just not be involved in it.  I’ve left many threads over the years that infuriated me but, I never treated people the way you have on this thread.
> I have avoided you as best I could on this thread as I didn’t feel that it was constructive to argue with someone who is just on here to argue.
> My comment was a clarification, not a jab at you.  We are supposed to be a community on TPF that is being helpful, supportive and above all, respectful.
> You attacking me only makes you look bad, not me.


----------



## fsadeli

TraceySH said:


> Well, I mean, making 15 million bags a year + kind of puts them in that category already? I think the REV bags are still 100% leather. My BLACK reissues & BLACK & beige clair jumbos are veiny & irregular surfaces. I knew they did something weird to the 19s when they came out b/c they felt like plastic, but honestly, I didn't care all that much cuz I've taken them out in the rain, spilled food on them, coffee on them, thrown them around, put them on the floor, and they've held up well. So, I mean, not great but that was a decent offset.
> 
> There's another thread out there right now about all this stuff BUT Chanel sells a feeling, not necessarily a quality product. I think people are hooked no matter what material they use!


Hi Tracey, may I know what do you mean by REV bags? Trying to know more about which bags still made with 100% leather


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> Except your very disrespectful post to me that was 100% personal, that the mods had to delete.


It was personal, but I’m confused how it was disrespectful. You made a reference to your spending history and I felt it was irrelevant to disclose amounts. I felt this was not the place to show off your money. You can say you’re a VVIC or Camellia client, but we don’t need monetary figures. You asked them to delete it.  I called you out on it and it was deleted because it deviated from the topic, not because it was deemed disrespectful.


----------



## TraceySH

fsadeli said:


> Hi Tracey, may I know what do you mean by REV bags? Trying to know more about which bags still made with 100% leather


So REV bags are considered Chanel classics. "Classics", per Chanel, are pretty fluid as they can shift and change over time. Right now, to my knowledge, that means black & beige clair caviar & lambskin jumbos, gold or silver hw, m/l, maxi, small double flaps, and black calfskin 2.55 reissue 227, 226, 225, 224 (double flaps NOT the mini which is NOT a 224). The black boy in new medium, old medium, small in caviar, smooth calf, both gold and silver hardware. I think the black 19 might be on that list now, but not sure. The Gabrielle might have been on there, but that's being discontinued. Minis were never considered classics despite everyone saying "classic mini", so they aren't REV.

The REV are released periodically throughout the year & are not on any collection schedule....


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> I don’t know that it was disrespectful, but it was personal. You made a reference to your spending history which I didn’t think was relevant to disclose amounts and I felt this was not the place for that.


Then please don't make blanket statements like the above when you cannot back them up. No one asked you to judge me personally about my spending history, and this is my thread, so your judgment of what is and isn't ok on this thread is completely irrelevant. It was deleted BECAUSE it was inappropriate, disrespectful and, as it was conveyed "starting drama". Take the L please and move on.


----------



## TPFer2015

papertiger said:


> Guess is all we can do regards Chanel, they even prefer to pay fines every year rather than file financial or other data.
> 
> I don't know whether you mean units sold, space allotted to, net or gross profit with your guesstimates . It's another topic, but Chanel is far more reliant on its beauty as profitable affordable luxury rather than accessories, bags included. They make a very large profit on couture, never mind RTW, one of the only Maisons to do so. Couture is a whole other story.
> 
> The Wertheimers who own Chanel came to Paris from Alsace 1870 at the time of Franco-Prussian war (Alsace used to be a part of Germany, Prussia won and Germany was formed in 1871). They owned Bourjois, who then helped develop Chanel's fragrances and later makeup. When Chanel died in 1971, they bought her (then quite tired looking - I have a bag from then) business and have been owning/running it ever since. Recently  Coty (US) bought Bourjois from Chanel in 2014 (I think the date's correct) as well as financial, Chanel now own 4.2% stake in Coty as part of the deal whilst allowing Chanel to concentrate on luxury. Chanel Beauty, fragrances and skincare probably (guessing too) accounts for more than 50% of all profits as it's not only sold in more places, to many, many more people, higher in stock turnover, but the mark-ups are way more than on any bag.


Am not surprised if make-up/beauty accounts for more than 50% of profits. Having some insight into fragrance & beauty businesses, the margins on this business line is insane. It used to cost 8 cents to make a MAC eyeshadow SKU (including all packaging) vs the $15 retail price. Hence why more and more fashion houses, like Hermes, Gucci, Burberry, have been coming out with their own beauty lines the past few years, you cant ignore those lucrative margins


----------



## TPFer2015

ntntgo said:


> I’m not sure this is entirely correct. The Pierre Wertheimer initially invested in the perfume business only. Then after Coco was forced out of France and wanted to return to her couturier and leather business, she negotiated the lawsuit she had brought against him pre-WW2 because she needed money. That’s when they got I think 80%ish of the whole company.
> The Wertheimers are VCs and they have Chanel, along with all of their other companies under Mousse Partners.  They are moving more toward healthcare & biotech. But they are invested or own 61 companies. Chanel being only one of those.
> I do find it interesting that the CEO that you reference came from Unilever as @880 stated. That’s something I was unaware of. Unilever is of my direct report’s accounts. So that is very worth exploring.
> Thanks a lot, now I’m down the rabbit hole on this and it’s totally OT. Sorry OP.


Indeed Mousse Partners is the W's family office, which holds plenty of other investments including Chanel. Lovely offices complete  with Chanel-branded office chairs


----------



## papertiger

ntntgo said:


> I’m not sure this is entirely correct. The Pierre Wertheimer initially invested in the perfume business only. Then after Coco was forced out of France and wanted to return to her couturier and leather business, she negotiated the lawsuit she had brought against him pre-WW2 because she needed money. That’s when they got I think 80%ish of the whole company.
> The Wertheimers are VCs and they have Chanel, along with all of their other companies under Mousse Partners.  They are moving more toward healthcare & biotech. But they are invested or own 61 companies. Chanel being only one of those.
> I do find it interesting that the CEO that you reference came from Unilever as @880 stated. That’s something I was unaware of. Unilever is of my direct report’s accounts. So that is very worth exploring.
> Thanks a lot, now I’m down the rabbit hole on this and it’s totally OT. Sorry OP.



I don't think I would say anything to the contrary. Chanel made the deal with Pierre and Paul Wertheimer in 1924 for mass producing the scent, allowing them 70% for most of the work, she ended up keeping 10% for basically choosing the scent and sticking her name on the bottle. Rhianna only keeps 15% of Fenty profits, it's not the worst deal. She tried her best to get wiggle out of the deal using Nazi legislation and even counterfeited her own products (for which she was never sued by the W family for). When she renegotiated in 1947 she took a huge lump-sum and took a cut on points (2% WW). 

Anyway, OT, but the point is, make lots of money from handbags (amount other things) but since most of their profit (IMO) comes from beauty, skincare, and fragrances it's not the worst of calamities for them if new lines don't work out. I think Chanel need to rethink and redesign of the 19 (at least the tote) and 22 design as well as the finishing process for their leather goods. A huge part of the appeal of the brand is (sorry to say this) the resale value. If things (besides CFs) don't last even a season and can't be sold on to partly recoup the initial outlay I do think it will have a huge impact on the band overall.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

I


TraceySH said:


> Then please don't make blanket statements like the above when you cannot back them up. No one asked you to judge me personally about my spending history, and this is my thread, so your judgment of what is and isn't ok on this thread is completely irrelevant. It was deleted BECAUSE it was inappropriate, disrespectful and, as it was conveyed "starting drama". Take the L please and move on.


I didn’t see that as disrespectful and neither did the moderators. “Starting drama” and being inappropriate or disrespectful are not remotely the same. Calling you out for bragging could be deemed a bad judgement call. Personal, yes, and off topic. I think disclosing finances is inappropriate.

I don’t think it qualifies under the blanket statement you’re referring to.


----------



## gail13

I'd just like to add that Chanel has a very powerful story about Coco and her beginnings;  they count on that to sell the product. As you learn more about the brand it may not be all that you thought it was. Chanel counts on having customers maintain quality etc is superb and there are some that will defend it to the end. If the brand were to pop up today and we had VV who had just taken over from Karl, what are we looking at? We have the Wertheimer's who are VC, we have VV who worked alongside Karl, what else makes one want to buy the brand? Im asking in all seriousness. 

Hopefully as a result of this forum which encourages people to share information, we can be better consumers and buy smarter. Wether its $6k on a bag or RTW, thats alot of money and I think all of us expect it to be among the best there is. I'd like a brand to have more than a story to it.....


----------



## TraceySH

bagsaremyjam said:


> I
> 
> I didn’t see that as disrespectful and neither did the moderators. “Starting drama” and being inappropriate or disrespectful are not remotely the same. Calling you out for bragging could be deemed a bad judgement call. Personal, yes, and off topic. I think disclosing finances is inappropriate.


They are synonymous. And how else does one attain any sort of status with a company like Chanel if not for mass expenditures? 

I will say the below and proceed to then hit the ignore feature for you as I have suggested many others do here. 

In the pages and pages of this thread, you’re the only one who continues to argue without a shared goal of community learning. You preach yet are wrong many times with your absolutes. You flagrantly dismiss knowledge from those that have gone before you and have decades of experience (and statuses) beyond yours. 

The only thing I can logically ascertain is your need to have the floor as the subject matter expert on all things luxury. And in that vein, I suggested you begin your own thread that focuses on your very unique and trademarked knowledge that we seem to not currently possess over here on this thread. 

That way, all eyes will be on you uniquely to share without the irritation of opposing viewpoints. 

Let’s focus on those here who do have substantial and credible knowledge, whom I have learned a great deal from in this thread. Thank you @ntntgo @gail13 @papertiger @880, you guys are amazing.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

TraceySH said:


> They are synonymous. And how else does one attain any sort of status with a company like Chanel if not for mass expenditures?
> 
> I will say the below and proceed to then hit the ignore feature for you as I have suggested many others do here.
> 
> In the pages and pages of this thread, you’re the only one who continues to argue without a shared goal of community learning. You preach yet are wrong many times with your absolutes. You flagrantly dismiss knowledge from those that have gone before you and have decades of experience (and statuses) beyond yours.
> 
> The only thing I can logically ascertain is your need to have the floor as the subject matter expert on all things luxury. And in that vein, I suggested you begin your own thread that focuses on your very unique and trademarked knowledge that we seem to not currently possess over here on this thread.
> 
> That way, all eyes will be on you uniquely to share without the irritation of opposing viewpoints.
> 
> Let’s focus on those here who do have substantial and credible knowledge, whom I have learned a great deal from in this thread. Thank you @ntntgo @gail13 @papertiger @880, you guys are amazing.


Actually I’ve admitted multiple times when I’m wrong. In fact, if you go back through, I even admitted so in regards to the thread with you.

You’ve told multiple people to mute me, I didn’t even realize I could do that. I’d love to do that with you as well. I’ve had people reach out to me in regards to you and other threads you’ve started. You seem to want everyone to believe everything you write but laugh off opposing views. Meanwhile, there have been plenty of people who’ve provided good insight, whether I’m with their POV or not.

I’ve not trying to have the floor, it’s frustrating seeing blanket statements made everywhere on this thread. I’ve never not agreed with the quality issues that can come with Chanel, but delegating this brand to trash as many of you have said, and comparing it to fast fashion, is not constructive and just plain wrong. But so many of you continue to purchase. The irony.


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> They are synonymous. And how else does one attain any sort of status with a company like Chanel if not for mass expenditures?
> 
> I will say the below and proceed to then hit the ignore feature for you as I have suggested many others do here.
> 
> In the pages and pages of this thread, you’re the only one who continues to argue without a shared goal of community learning. You preach yet are wrong many times with your absolutes. You flagrantly dismiss knowledge from those that have gone before you and have decades of experience (and statuses) beyond yours.
> 
> The only thing I can logically ascertain is your need to have the floor as the subject matter expert on all things luxury. And in that vein, I suggested you begin your own thread that focuses on your very unique and trademarked knowledge that we seem to not currently possess over here on this thread.
> 
> That way, all eyes will be on you uniquely to share without the irritation of opposing viewpoints.
> 
> Let’s focus on those here who do have substantial and credible knowledge, whom I have learned a great deal from in this thread. Thank you @ntntgo @gail13 @papertiger @880, you guys are amazing


+1


----------



## 880

bagsaremyjam said:


> You may not have taken it the wrong way, but for someone to tell me what kind of bag I own when





bagsaremyjam said:


> I’m not looking to argue,





bagsaremyjam said:


> Writing can intensify words when written quickly and directly and is void of inflection, so I guess that doesn’t help





bagsaremyjam said:


> I’m confused how it was disrespectful.


@bagsaremyjam,

On their face, your comments are aggressive personal attacks even to those who are not directly in crossfire. And this is while you accuse others of the same.

You feel insulted by a comment that is considered benign and happens to add information to the thread. Simply bc it is about a bag that belongs to you.

Rather than respond so, TPF generally advises that one press ignore; take it to PM; or, report the comment for deletion so as not to interrupt thread continuity.  This should not be taken personally; most of us have been moderated.

ETA: I may disagree with members like OP and decide to tell them so, or refrain, but it’s inappropriate to accuse anyone of bragging re purchases. I mean this is TPF. We all secretly want to know what others spend if only to feel virtuous when we look at our own Amex bill


----------



## bagsaremyjam

880 said:


> @bagsaremyjam,
> 
> On their face, your comments feel overly contentious, aggressive, and impolite to even those who are not directly in crossfire. Sadly the tone dilutes some of the interesting knowledge you impart.
> 
> It appears that you feel insulted by a comment that is considered benign and happens to add information to the thread. Simply bc it is about a bag that belongs to you.
> 
> Rather than respond so, TPF generally advises that one press ignore.


Thank you. I respect and appreciate what you’re saying. If I’m coming off that way it was never my intent and I can’t ignore that I’m coming off a certain way to multiple people.

The comment may seem benign because it’s a bag that belongs to me, but if you read through the thread I have a fashion background. So it was taken personally that I wouldn’t know the difference because a bag that costs an obscene amount of money (re: crocodile) I purchased to a croc embossed leather. Maybe to others it’s not a big deal, but for someone who has a fashion background it’s a big deal. Maybe harder to understand if you’re not in that realm. Also, the box of my bag has the name on it, which is a Cocodile Gabrielle. Having to go back and forth was frustrating as I literally have the information right in front of me. I felt like my intelligence was being questioned.

I’m passionate and have a lot of knowledge and certainly do not act like I know everything. I’ve admitted openly here when I’ve realized I was wrong. I also don’t believe that more spending power and purchase history necessarily equates to more knowledge of fashion. Some yes, but not always. I think some of the same arguments made about me can equally be made back to the person from which they came.

I’m on and off TPF so I didn’t realize I could ignore someone. I wish I could’ve ignored comments long ago but felt the need to respond, which annoys me as much as it may have annoyed others. But I will be using that feature moving forward.


----------



## ntntgo

papertiger said:


> I don't think I would say anything to the contrary. Chanel made the deal with Pierre and Paul Wertheimer in 1924 for mass producing the scent, allowing them 70% for most of the work, she ended up keeping 10% for basically choosing the scent and sticking her name on the bottle. Rhianna only keeps 15% of Fenty profits, it's not the worst deal. She tried her best to get wiggle out of the deal using Nazi legislation and even counterfeited her own products (for which she was never sued by the W family for). When she renegotiated in 1947 she took a huge lump-sum and took a cut on points (2% WW).
> 
> Anyway, OT, but the point is, make lots of money from handbags (amount other things) but since most of their profit (IMO) comes from beauty, skincare, and fragrances it's not the worst of calamities for them if new lines don't work out. I think Chanel need to rethink and redesign of the 19 (at least the tote) and 22 design as well as the finishing process for their leather goods. A huge part of the appeal of the brand is (sorry to say this) the resale value. If things (besides CFs) don't last even a season and can't be sold on to partly recoup the initial outlay I do think it will have a huge impact on the band overall.


Thank you for the additional information. I actually didn‘t realize that yoir original post that I responded to was about Chanel beauty. I also didn’t know that it had been separated from Chanel Ltd. So thank you for that also.  I don’t buy their beauty products anymore since they discontinued my lip color, as seems to happen every time I find a signature lip color. 
I think we can always learn something from others. What’s the saying “Once you stop learning you start dying”? 
Your statement about the resale value driving sales is so spot on. i do think that we are starting to see that happen with FP rescinding offers on bags, as someone stated. 
I wish we could go back to the days of excellence in quality and Chanel is not the only culprit but they’re definitely at the forefront due to the rise in prices in comparison. 
Nice to see you again after my absence from TPF for so many years.


----------



## papertiger

gail13 said:


> I'd just like to add that Chanel has a very powerful story about Coco and her beginnings;  they count on that to sell the product. As you learn more about the brand it may not be all that you thought it was. Chanel counts on having customers maintain quality etc is superb and there are some that will defend it to the end. If the brand were to pop up today and we had VV who had just taken over from Karl, what are we looking at? We have the Wertheimer's who are VC, we have VV who worked alongside Karl, what else makes one want to buy the brand? Im asking in all seriousness.
> 
> Hopefully as a result of this forum which encourages people to share information, we can be better consumers and buy smarter. Wether its $6k on a bag or RTW, thats alot of money and I think all of us expect it to be among the best there is. I'd like a brand to have more than a story to it.....



IMO, we have a *story* of one of the early 'boss lady' pioneers who was also a thoroughly Modern women. Although not born to privilege she seemed to be able to put her ingenuity, self-discipline and marketing skill to good use, as well be able to 'make friends and influence people'.

We have the *inherited fashion vocabulary* of Chanel herself and Karl's reinterpretation (he said himself she would have hated most of the things he designed). How many brands have borrowed from Chanel recently including Gucci, Saint Laurent (check out SLP's AW21 tweed suits, metallics and separates (1,2, 3 & 4) against Chanel AW1994 (5). Serious or ironic, Chanel pieces remain Chanel, even after their creators' deaths, even with a different label.








I didn't enjoy so much of VV's first seasons in charge TBH. Sometimes, there's barely one outfit I'm drooling over - and that's in the couture shows (I'm good at dreaming). It's good to have a woman designing for women so we will have to be patient Not of all of Karl's stuff was always that great either. Seeing the pieces on real women like @880, @ari and @periogirl28 is actually an eye-opener because they translate quite well to real life more than are suited to the catwalk.

Wertheimer family have been running Chanel as a growing concern for 51 years and we have them to thank for allowing Karl such a free hand as Head Designer. When Chanel died in the early 1970s, her clientele were not the fashionable set at all. So long as there is value placed on quality not just profit (thread notwithstanding  ) and continue to support Causse Gantier and other exceptional standard businesses, there'll always be something. I guess we need to know/understand quality and stop being duped by all the latest pretty shiny things  just cos it's  (I will only buy _very_ vintage Chanel costume jewellery) Chanel will have a place.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

880 said:


> @bagsaremyjam,
> 
> On their face, your comments are aggressive personal attacks even to those who are not directly in crossfire. And this is while you accuse others of the same.
> 
> You feel insulted by a comment that is considered benign and happens to add information to the thread. Simply bc it is about a bag that belongs to you.
> 
> Rather than respond so, TPF generally advises that one press ignore; take it to PM; or, report the comment for deletion so as not to interrupt thread continuity.  This should not be taken personally; most of us have been moderated.
> 
> ETA: I may disagree with members like OP and decide to tell them so, or refrain, but it’s inappropriate to accuse anyone of bragging re purchases. I mean this is TPF. We want to know what others spend if only to feel virtuous when we look at our own Amex bill.


Continuing to the end of your edited comment…

To me there’s a tasteful way of going about bragging and what’s expected here. I want to see what people are buying and am curious when people have certain access with certain statuses, and if asked how much something is I find it totally normal for someone to disclose.

But I personally find it distasteful and lacking tact to tell people (who haven’t asked) that you spent a million dollars in bags, spent three million on jewelry, etc, etc. You get what I’m saying. There’s a difference.


----------



## HauteRN

bagsaremyjam said:


> Continuing to the end of your edited comment…
> 
> To me there’s a tasteful way of going about bragging and what’s expected here. I want to see what people are buying and am curious when people have certain access with certain statuses, and if asked how much something is I find it totally normal for someone to disclose.
> 
> But I personally find it distasteful and lacking tact to tell people (who haven’t asked) that you spent a million dollars in bags, spent three million on jewelry, etc, etc. You get what I’m saying. There’s a difference.


We are all different; there are so many great things about that. Imho, you're making this personal on both how you're receiving and how you're reacting. One might also find it disrespectful and lacking tact to continue going after someone.

I say this with care: sometimes it's best to think something, but not let it cross your lips or keyboard.


----------



## 880

+1 with @HauteRN 

@gail13 , @papertiger ,

The wertheimers ‘forgave’ chanel and I thought supported her for the rest of her life bc it was great business practice to do so. Like it or not, her imprint lends value to the Brand. And, for all of the wailing re standards slipping on bags or RTW, that’s true of many premier brands. Chanel is hardly alone.

After all this, I’m embarrassed to say, I haven’t entirely ruled out the 22 bag.

The 19 tote that I handled at the boutique also looked good, but I don’t really even use the totes I own.

I don’t think chanel cares about the social media complaints. Bc it’s still exposure to zillions. Once the client is in the store, she might be curious enough to look at a 19, but she is also likely to pick up lots of other things

I go back and forth as to whether or not to hunt up a GST at resale. I remember it as being THE mom bag of its day as well as being really amazing quality for a relatively low price. It’s just that it’s so aggressively caviar, and I’m not.


----------



## papertiger

880 said:


> +1 with @HauteRN
> 
> @gail13 , @papertiger ,
> 
> The wertheimers ‘forgave’ chanel and I thought supported her for the rest of her life bc it was great business practice to do so. Like it or not, her imprint lends value to the Brand. And, for all of the wailing re standards slipping on bags or RTW, that’s true of many premier brands. Chanel is hardly alone.
> 
> After all this, I’m embarrassed to say, I haven’t entirely ruled out the 22 bag.
> 
> The 19 tote that I handled at the boutique also looked good, but I don’t really even use the totes I own.
> 
> I go back and forth as to whether or not to hunt up a GST at resale. I remember it as being THE mom bag of its day as well as being really amazing quality for a relatively low price. It’s just that it’s so aggressively caviar, and I’m not.



Big shoppers are going HUGE - and that's all I'm saying  I used to have it but swapped it for a Gucci (my mother's lizard MTO 'Padlock'). I can't even remember why I didn't like it ir it didn't work for me (I think I got a lot of attention and wasn't living in a great part of town). Archive posts may tell you.  

Don't be embarrassed. Romina admitted she loved her metallic 22 even though she thought it defective. I like the look of the 22 (I liked the Gabrielle too - which I also didn't buy) but there's really nothing to that bag (22) so I'm not surprised it doesn't stand up to much. Not sure about the letters on the front either (for _me_). However, I don't even use my backpack, and when I do it's over one shoulder so maybe I almost have that bag anyway, I should shop from my own closet.


----------



## Liberté

TPFer2015 said:


> Am not surprised if make-up/beauty accounts for more than 50% of profits. Having some insight into fragrance & beauty businesses, the margins on this business line is insane. It used to cost 8 cents to make a MAC eyeshadow SKU (including all packaging) vs the $15 retail price. Hence why more and more fashion houses, like Hermes, Gucci, Burberry, have been coming out with their own beauty lines the past few years, you cant ignore those lucrative margins



Hermes, Chanel and LVMH and I believe some Kering brands to used to make extensive use of subcontractors and certainly do still.  Kering brands did show up in the documentary CASH INVESTIGATION: LUXURY: BEHIND THE MIRROR.

 There were articles after the financial crisis saying that the (French)  subcontractors business were suffering, even if the luxury groups were showing great results in the market, it was implied volume was down and prices went up, which left less work to be contracted out and less money to be made for the subcontractors. Great for the owners of the big luxury groups, not so great for the smaller businesses and their employees. 

But in some cases I think there's a sort of grey area where a subcontractor more or less has one or two brands as clients, the materials are provided in parts by the client and the quality control is also more or less determined by the client. 

 About the margins on some of the items. There's actually quite a lot of information available in European media about this topic, especially in French media and some can be deduced from financial reports from the brands. In an article from 2015, one of the heads of one of the French subcontractors mentioned that he made belts at the cost of 7 euros, sold them on to either Hermes LV or Chanel for 39 euros, which sold them to the clients for 750 euros. There was also a documentary about the miracles of LV and their business model where they visited the factories and showed an estimate of how much of a bags is pure profit. 



ntntgo said:


> I just wanted to highlight that the names thrown out in this thread are not fashion houses anymore. They are brands being brilliantly marketed to new money.



I think this is important to keep in mind. The brand isn't dependent on any physical aspects of the business such as continued tradition, craftsmanship or heritage other than some carefully selected visual cues and stories. Which is why we see the successful revival of so many French heritage brands these days such as Patou and Schiaparelli or maison violet.


----------



## Swanky

Hey friends, lets get back to topic and kindly take any personal issues to PM or agree to disagree and let it go.


----------



## TPFer2015

Liberté said:


> Hermes, Chanel and LVMH and I believe some Kering brands to used to make extensive use of subcontractors and certainly do still.  Kering brands did show up in the documentary CASH INVESTIGATION: LUXURY: BEHIND THE MIRROR.
> 
> There were articles after the financial crisis saying that the (French)  subcontractors business were suffering, even if the luxury groups were showing great results in the market, it was implied volume was down and prices went up, which left less work to be contracted out and less money to be made for the subcontractors. Great for the owners of the big luxury groups, not so great for the smaller businesses and their employees.
> 
> But in some cases I think there's a sort of grey area where a subcontractor more or less has one or two brands as clients, the materials are provided in parts by the client and the quality control is also more or less determined by the client.
> 
> About the margins on some of the items. There's actually quite a lot of information available in European media about this topic, especially in French media and some can be deduced from financial reports from the brands. In an article from 2015, one of the heads of one of the French subcontractors mentioned that he made belts at the cost of 7 euros, sold them on to either Hermes LV or Chanel for 39 euros, which sold them to the clients for 750 euros. There was also a documentary about the miracles of LV and their business model where they visited the factories and showed an estimate of how much of a bags is pure profit.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is important to keep in mind. The brand isn't dependent on any physical aspects of the business such as continued tradition, craftsmanship or heritage other than some carefully selected visual cues and stories. Which is why we see the successful revival of so many French heritage brands these days such as Patou and Schiaparelli or maison violet.


Oh yes, good point wrt sub-contracting and esp for fragrance, most actually do outsource to a white label manufacturer and distributor. We used to do so for brands like Hugo Boss (some, not all their perfumes) and Ferrari/non-fashion brands. Brands either get a fixed royalty or % of each SKU sold.
Other than Beauty, some RTW is 'outsourced' (notice that I am using the term a lot looser here). For e.g. my buddy supplies the cashmere and (I think) makes some of Chanel & Hermes' cashmere-wear too. He has his own small brand too, and keeps the nicer quality threads for himself  FYIP also that he sources a lot from China, and its lovely cashmere.


----------



## gail13

Liberté said:


> About the margins on some of the items. There's actually quite a lot of information available in European media about this topic, especially in French media and some can be deduced from financial reports from the brands. In an article from 2015, one of the heads of one of the French subcontractors mentioned that he made belts at the cost of 7 euros, sold them on to either Hermes LV or Chanel for 39 euros, which sold them to the clients for 750 euros. There was also a documentary about the miracles of LV and their business model where they visited the factories and showed an estimate of how much of a bags is pure profit.


Thank you, this goes to my point that cost is not reflective of quality.


----------



## ntntgo

@TraceySH Thank you for starting this thread and sharing the issues you’ve had with your bags in this forum. It’s sad that someone who seems to spend so much money with the brand has experienced such little satisfaction.
Regarding the post from @Swanky  I agree that this has gone off the initial subject.
So to her point, I’d really like to see pictures of others who have had 22 or 19 tote quality issues. Please post only your pictures. Not links to other people’s videos or repost of other people’s bags without their permission.
I have a 2 quantity 22s, one a backpack and one the shoulder bag, that are paid for and I’ve asked my SA to hold off on sending them.
Thank you to those who have provided insightful, respectful commentary.

ETA: If anyone can point me to any existing threads that are regarding other Chanel quality issues, and any thread about the Wertheimers Mousse Partners of which Chanel falls under, would be so appreciate.


----------



## zaraha

880 said:


> I wish someone with an insiders background in the corporate growth and branding of premier fashion houses (as opposed to luxury ) could chime in  I was scrooging around on line and making up key word searches to see if there was, for example, an HBS case study pie chart somewhere lol.
> 
> i did come up with the factoid that the chanel global CEO worldwide is now a unilever executive. The blurb emphasized that the ceo did not have a fashion background but rather product. And different fashion houses have different emphasis on business models (why some reserve in store experience for high paying individuals, and therefore don’t sell RTW on e-commerce, whereas others have diffusion or bridge lines that might sell t shirts on ecommerce.
> 
> also chanel recently purchased a leather manufacturing in France
> 
> ETA: I assume it’s safe to post objects here on TPF (in terms of risk assessment for IRL theft,
> if you are not otherwise on social media. And disable geo locator, IDK
> 
> BTW, re chanel items that are overly distressed to the point of unreasonable wear on a New retail piece. When I grumbled to my very experienced SA in 2003 about the excessive distressing on the sleeves of my brand new croc printed fabric jacket, I specifically complained about the fact that the material might develop holes in the course of normal wear. It’s the on,y time I can recall asking if there was another item to compare it to. She said they were all like that. She said this was brought up in the manufacture, and KL specifically said that this was not an issue for him; he actually said his clients, the very wealthy, who may only wear an item once, would not care. So, i can easily see him stating the same about a bag. Given this attitude, I am not certain he would care if a bag peeled after a few months or weeks of wear.


Your croc embossed outfit certainly seems like a quality issue. Could be thin leather they used with stamped leather made it more vulnerable but so sorry this happened to you.  My croc embossed leather tote from 2019 collection, held up well I have minor wear on corners but it been thru airplane, floors, counters, heavily stuffed with laptops, jackets books, shoes at time .


----------



## sjunky13

I have been reading this thread with great interest! This is not new for Chanel in any way!
This crappy leather all started about 2010. Does anyone remember when the "In business '' ligne came out?
The classic prices had just seen a huge jump, we were all upset , here came a classic bag style that looked like a flap. It was priced about $2250 and the vinyl one about $1850. The Chanel forum went crazy with purchasing it! People wanted the classic flap look, but not the price.
I spoke with a long time Chanel SA who told me it was the worst made bag ever to be made. The leather was pounded extremely thin and  stretched out , then placed on terrible cardboard. Needless to say, the bags started wearing very poorly. The same with the Chevron statement bag made about 2018.

I love Chanel, the look is my favorite and the classic flap is my favorite.  I also have purchased tons of seasonal bags over the past 18 years and some were made fabulously!  The flaps, I still think those are made quite well and maybe a bit better that my older single flaps to be honest. They really improved the quality ime. I also think the Trendy CC is made extremely well. 
The coco handle is made terrible IMO. It looks and feels not up to luxury standards. It is for sure not worth the price. 

As for the bonded leather, it would not surprise me at all. I have ben saying for years and years Chanel is a fashion house. Not luxury.


----------



## zaraha

This thread should be renamed to something to the fact  “chanel history then and now, inside scoop“ and added it to library ha ha.

Lots of great information! And I’m seeing lots of OGs chiming in with their  knowledge as well. I keep taking screen shots on all the new things I’m learning about chanel from valuable members. Great work!


----------



## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> This thread should be renamed to something to the fact  “chanel history then and now, inside scoop“ and added it to library ha ha.
> 
> Lots of great information! And I’m seeing lots of OGs chiming in with their  knowledge as well. I keep print screening all the new things I’m learning about chanel from valuable members. Great work!


Agree! What started as a gripe turned into an encyclopedia!


----------



## 880

zaraha said:


> Your croc embossed outfit certainly seems like a quality issue. Could be thin leather they used with stamped leather made it more vulnerable but so sorry this happened to you.  My croc embossed leather tote from 2019 collection, held up well I have minor wear on corners but it been thru airplane, floors, counters, heavily stuffed with laptops, jackets books, shoes at time .
> 
> View attachment 5581817
> 
> 
> View attachment 5581818


Thank you so much. no need for concern. In 2003, my RTW wasn’t croc embossed leather, but coated fabric.  And it was very clear KL was going after that super distressed look.  interestingly enough, it basically looks the same as the day I bought it, so it’s held up relatively well. I didn’t bring it up as an example of complaining about quality. It was more my SAs response re KL that was interesting. And, she was very knowledgeable (and went on to manage Fendi; head a part of Brioni corporate and is now at managing another large brand)


----------



## zaraha

880 said:


> Oh in 2003, this wasn’t croc embossed leather, but coated fabric.  And it was very clear KL was going after that super distressed look.  interestingly enough, it basically looks the same as the day I bought it, so it’s held up relatively well.


Oh lol sorry I didn’t know it was meant give that distress look!  Btw: you have amazing collection!


----------



## sweetpea_2009

I've found this thread informative and interesting.  I was contemplating the 19 tote when I saw a few pics of it on this forum.  After this thread, I will not be pursuing that bag lol.


----------



## Fixxi

The 19 tote doesn't appeal to me, but all this thread did was convince me that I should buy a 19 as they seem way more durable than I imagined (per @TraceySH experiments)


----------



## 880

papertiger said:


> I don't think I would say anything to the contrary. Chanel made the deal with Pierre and Paul Wertheimer in 1924 for mass producing the scent, allowing them 70% for most of the work, she ended up keeping 10% for basically choosing the scent and sticking her name on the bottle. Rhianna only keeps 15% of Fenty profits, it's not the worst deal. She tried her best to get wiggle out of the deal using Nazi legislation and even counterfeited her own products (for which she was never sued by the W family for). When she renegotiated in 1947 she took a huge lump-sum and took a cut on points (2% WW).
> 
> Anyway, OT, but the point is, make lots of money from handbags (amount other things) but since most of their profit (IMO) comes from beauty, skincare, and fragrances it's not the worst of calamities for them if new lines don't work out. I think Chanel need to rethink and redesign of the 19 (at least the tote) and 22 design as well as the finishing process for their leather goods. A huge part of the appeal of the brand is (sorry to say this) the resale value. If things (besides CFs) don't last even a season and can't be sold on to partly recoup the initial outlay I do think it will have a huge impact on the band overall.


Many here know more than I do, but the profit margins from fragrance are enormous (I think for every 200 euros, like 2 euros are used for ingredients) and it’s extremely big business and has been so for years. Having said that chanel has employed a variety of talented perfumers, Erest Beaux, Polge father ans son, etc., amnd has bought up its own farm land in Grasse to ensure premium and sufficient access to rose, Jasmine absolute and others. Chanel also has had exclusive contracts with Jasmine farmer Mul who has a generations old Jasmine farm. There are a lot of French connections in fashion and Perfume. I vaguely recall that Frederic Malles uncle was Dior or some other major name. And many houses employ the famous perfumers given top billing by Malle. I actually no l9nger recall the details, so I trust that other Tpfers can correct or adjust my factoids. 

Re the statements that chanel outsources. With respect to cashmere sweaters, chanel bought outright or interest in Barrie, a Scottish mill for cashmere, that was going under in 2012. I believe Barrie currently is responsible for the cashmere. Not sure to what extent.  I’ve also read that the knitwear is manufactured in Italy. . .

ETA: decades ago, I thought the head of chanel cosmetics was married to the head of Wet &wild, a budget brand that I happened to like? Anyway, I remembered reading an article about how the main difference re color cosmetics was packaging and sometimes a more elegant finish


----------



## sjunky13

Since the topic of cosmetics has come up. I was working with another brand and invited to a Chanel training for the new makeup brushes years ago.  This is when Japanese squirrel hair brushes started gaining popularity in the west. Chanel made their brushes to look exactly like a brand called Suqqu which were very good quality brushes..  We asked what animal the brushes were made from. Goat? grey squirrel? Pony? Synthetic?  We were all told that Chanel does not share the origins of source materials  used. They would like to remain ambiguous as to not upset anyone . It was a good peek into the brain of the brand. Never disclose too much.

Speaking of cosmetics . The Brothers had a huge disagreement regarding manufacturing of powder formulas.  There were 2 different factories and formulas for powder products. Blush, shadows ,etc. Outside of the states, you got the baked formula . There were a ton of inconsistencies.

The brothers are huge investors in the beauty sphere. They recently sold off ULTA stock and made a fortune!
Someone asked about Bourjois being made in the same factories? It used to be manufactured  in one of the factories when Chanel owned it, but they sold it years ago. The formula was the baked one referenced above .

I once heard from a reputable source that the cost of a Jumbo flap was less than $100 to produce.

I mention these things because it is obvious the brand has hired the absolute best marketing teams throughout the years.
Anyone remember the ceo from gap? I can't recall her name, but she swore the brand would  reflect Hermes in pricing and  strategy. This was over 10 years ago. They know what they are doing! They reveal just enough info and mystiques 
Yes, we pay for branding and marketing. Not materials . I know I wear Rose colored glasses when I buy the brand.
I hope this thread remains open and we can have a good place to share info on leathers and experiences. I for sure want to know what leather I am buying!


----------



## Coach Superfan

zaraha said:


> This thread should be renamed to something to the fact  “chanel history then and now, inside scoop“ and added it to library ha ha.
> 
> Lots of great information! And I’m seeing lots of OGs chiming in with their  knowledge as well. I keep taking screen shots on all the new things I’m learning about chanel from valuable members. Great work!


100% agree with this! It's like the crash course I never knew I needed. Every morning I looked forward to catching up on what valuable insight OP @TraceySH and the other active posters here have been contributing. This thread has been the most informative, enjoyable, and interesting thread I've come across on tPF in years.


----------



## zaraha

sjunky13 said:


> Since the topic of cosmetics has come up. I was working with another brand and invited to a Chanel training for the new makeup brushes years ago.  This is when Japanese squirrel hair brushes started gaining popularity in the west. Chanel made their brushes to look exactly like a brand called Suqqu which were very good quality brushes..  We asked what animal the brushes were made from. Goat? grey squirrel? Pony? Synthetic?  We were all told that Chanel does not share the origins of source materials  used. They would like to remain ambiguous as to not upset anyone . It was a good peek into the brain of the brand. Never disclose too much.
> 
> Speaking of cosmetics . The Brothers had a huge disagreement regarding manufacturing of powder formulas.  There were 2 different factories and formulas for powder products. Blush, shadows ,etc. Outside of the states, you got the baked formula . There were a ton of inconsistencies.
> 
> The brothers are huge investors in the beauty sphere. They recently sold off ULTA stock and made a fortune!
> Someone asked about Bourjois being made in the same factories? It used to be manufactured  in one of the factories when Chanel owned it, but they sold it years ago. The formula was the baked one referenced above .
> 
> I once heard from a reputable source that the cost of a Jumbo flap was less than $100 to produce.
> 
> I mention these things because it is obvious the brand has hired the absolute best marketing teams throughout the years.
> Anyone remember the ceo from gap? I can't recall her name, but she swore the brand would  reflect Hermes in pricing and  strategy. This was over 10 years ago. They know what they are doing! They reveal just enough info and mystiques
> Yes, we pay for branding and marketing. Not materials . I know I wear Rose colored glasses when I buy the brand.
> I hope this thread remains open and we can have a good place to share info on leathers and experiences. I for sure want to know what leather I am buying!


So chanel brushes… I have an old powder brush with silver/black handle - is Bristles meant to be like “Japanese squirrel hair”  maybe “sabel” it feels so soft but I  can’t tell if it’s synthetic. This brush no longer sold at chanel I think, but I love it and had it for years.
  I do not like the new brushes they sell ( all black handle), they feel cheep and bristles feels too synthetic.  Thank you for you contribution on make up side.


----------



## TraceySH

Coach Superfan said:


> 100% agree with this! It's like the crash course I never knew I needed. Every morning I looked forward to catching up on what valuable insight OP @TraceySH and the other active posters here have been contributing. This thread has been the most informative, enjoyable, and interesting thread I've come across on tPF in years.


And all of our twists and turns too! It's been a wild ride, but SO incredibly informative!


----------



## sjunky13

zaraha said:


> So chanel brushes… I have an old powder brush with silver/black handle - is Bristles meant to be like “Japanese squirrel hair” it feels so soft but I  can’t tell if it’s synthetic.  This brush no longer sold at chanel I think, but I love it and had it for years.
> I do not like the new brushes they sell ( all black handle), they feel cheep and bristles feels too synthetic.  Thank you for you contribution on make up side.
> 
> View attachment 5582000


Hi my fellow rose colored glass wearer! LOL. xoxo.
The older brushes were made in China and I liked them! I have the original gold and black ones as well.  I like some of the new ones. The new ones are dyed goat and synthetic! The new cheek brush you have is not a fav. It looks sleek, but the head is meh. 
My fav brushes are the old Tom Ford goat brushes before they changed to synthetics. Sonia G as well. 
Back to Chanel.. cosmetics costs penny's on the dollar . The Profit is amazingly high.
My first job in cosmetics was with Dior. I remember the training so well. Women will always buy a new lipstick to cheer them self up and even if they can't afford a Dior suit, they will buy into the brand through Beaute!
This is why all celebrities' and brands do beaute. They want the $$$.


----------



## sjunky13

Coach Superfan said:


> 100% agree with this! It's like the crash course I never knew I needed. Every morning I looked forward to catching up on what valuable insight OP @TraceySH and the other active posters here have been contributing. This thread has been the most informative, enjoyable, and interesting thread I've come across on tPF in years.


I love it too. It's great to be informed and brands should apricate the good feedback from their top loyal clients! This forum is free research for them. 
In regards to Chanel, they already have a winning formula so the videos and negativity doesn't really affect them badly, Hello advent calendar !


----------



## TPFer2015

sjunky13 said:


> Hi my fellow rose colored glass wearer! LOL. xoxo.
> The older brushes were made in China and I liked them! I have the original gold and black ones as well.  I like some of the new ones. The new ones are dyed goat and synthetic! The new cheek brush you have is not a fav. It looks sleek, but the head is meh.
> My fav brushes are the old Tom Ford goat brushes before they changed to synthetics. Sonia G as well.
> Back to Chanel.. cosmetics costs penny's on the dollar . The Profit is amazingly high.
> My first job in cosmetics was with Dior. I remember the training so well. Women will always buy a new lipstick to cheer them self up and even if they can't afford a Dior suit, they will buy into the brand through Beaute!
> This is why all celebrities' and brands do beaute. They want the $$$.


Totally, the ‘Lipstick effect’, ie small ticket luxury / discretionary purchases are surprisingly resilient income through recessions because ppl generally (not including the 1% and millionaires here) are more wary of their spending during a tighter economy, they will still shell out 30 bucks for a fancy lipstick to cheer themselves up.


----------



## sjunky13

TPFer2015 said:


> Totally, the ‘Lipstick effect’, ie small ticket luxury / discretionary purchases are surprisingly resilient income through recessions because ppl generally (not including the 1% and millionaires here) are more wary of their spending during a tighter economy, they will still shell out 30 bucks for a fancy lipstick to cheer themselves up.


I myself am guilty of this as well. It's so easy!
Small ticket luxury is very profitable. 
Costume jewelry.
Slg's
Beauty
water bottles, towels, headbands etc. 


Does anyone know about Chanel shoes? I feel they are still made very well. I love the sneakers and ballet flats.


----------



## Roie55

This is one of the best, most informative threads in a long time. Initially I was shocked at the resilience of the 19 and wondered what sorcery was in this bag - but now i'm considering it to be a future purchase due to its indestructability. I'm a vintage buyer so only have a small handful, but with all the talk of the quality of the new lines I think i'll stay vintage for a long time to come.
While the 22 is a weird line for the brand, (I still think it has a dust bag look). I am that person looking on the internet for a padded puffer jacket looking long strap bag to use at the gym - which i now realise closely resembles the 22 style. So there is always a market.

An earlier post mentioned the chinese labour factories in Italy. Wasn't there some articles a few years ago about this, how earlier generations were brought there for labour. It's generations later now and they pride themselves on being skilled artisans, what i'm saying is not so much a slave labour type forced-workforce. (using slave labour as a loose term as i'm not sure how far back the earlier post is nor the term which was used to describe). There might still be many unfairly treated workforces as there always is; but i think the current practice is not like that as in some asiapac regions well known for the bad practices.


----------



## bags to die for

Interesting point about the make-up brushes. I found my chanel brush made of synthetics but amazingly soft and compared to a Japanese brand Hakuhodo (have tried Suqqu but not their brushes) and it's made from blue squirrel and goat (they do use synthetics too). There's very little difference in feel. I'll appreciate my Japanese brushes more!


----------



## gail13

sjunky13 said:


> Since the topic of cosmetics has come up. I was working with another brand and invited to a Chanel training for the new makeup brushes years ago.  This is when Japanese squirrel hair brushes started gaining popularity in the west. Chanel made their brushes to look exactly like a brand called Suqqu which were very good quality brushes..  We asked what animal the brushes were made from. Goat? grey squirrel? Pony? Synthetic?  We were all told that Chanel does not share the origins of source materials  used. They would like to remain ambiguous as to not upset anyone . It was a good peek into the brain of the brand. Never disclose too much.
> 
> Speaking of cosmetics . The Brothers had a huge disagreement regarding manufacturing of powder formulas.  There were 2 different factories and formulas for powder products. Blush, shadows ,etc. Outside of the states, you got the baked formula . There were a ton of inconsistencies.
> 
> The brothers are huge investors in the beauty sphere. They recently sold off ULTA stock and made a fortune!
> Someone asked about Bourjois being made in the same factories? It used to be manufactured  in one of the factories when Chanel owned it, but they sold it years ago. The formula was the baked one referenced above .
> 
> I once heard from a reputable source that the cost of a Jumbo flap was less than $100 to produce.
> 
> I mention these things because it is obvious the brand has hired the absolute best marketing teams throughout the years.
> Anyone remember the ceo from gap? I can't recall her name, but she swore the brand would  reflect Hermes in pricing and  strategy. This was over 10 years ago. They know what they are doing! They reveal just enough info and mystiques
> Yes, we pay for branding and marketing. Not materials . I know I wear Rose colored glasses when I buy the brand.
> I hope this thread remains open and we can have a good place to share info on leathers and experiences. I for sure want to know what leather I am buying!


Great info! As someone else said here, " You can't pull the tweed over our eyes."


----------



## gail13

sjunky13 said:


> I love it too. It's great to be informed and brands should apricate the good feedback from their top loyal clients! This forum is free research for them.
> In regards to Chanel, they already have a winning formula so the videos and negativity doesn't really affect them badly, Hello advent calendar !


That Advent calendar says everything about Chanel and the image they want to portray. 
1. They don't care what we want.
2. They will tell us what we are to purchase, not the other way around.
3. Quality of materials is not important, but the outside look is. 
Im sure it says more but those are the three I come up with.


----------



## gail13

sjunky13 said:


> Hi my fellow rose colored glass wearer! LOL. xoxo.
> The older brushes were made in China and I liked them! I have the original gold and black ones as well.  I like some of the new ones. The new ones are dyed goat and synthetic! The new cheek brush you have is not a fav. It looks sleek, but the head is meh.
> My fav brushes are the old Tom Ford goat brushes before they changed to synthetics. Sonia G as well.
> Back to Chanel.. cosmetics costs penny's on the dollar . The Profit is amazingly high.
> My first job in cosmetics was with Dior. I remember the training so well. Women will always buy a new lipstick to cheer them self up and even if they can't afford a Dior suit, they will buy into the brand through Beaute!
> This is why all celebrities' and brands do beaute. They want the $$$.


Are there any CC cosmetics or brushes etc you think are really well made and good purchases?


----------



## tulipfield

papertiger said:


> When Chanel died in 1971, they bought her (then quite tired looking - I have a bag from then) business and have been owning/running it ever since.


@papertiger I am intrigued, do you have a picture anywhere of this vintage bag?



sjunky13 said:


> Does anyone know about Chanel shoes? I feel they are still made very well. I love the sneakers and ballet flats.


I’ve had a good experience too—multiple pairs of ballerinas and slingbacks and a pair of Mary Janes.  I mentioned upthread I gave up on Chanel bc of two faulty pairs of platforms a few seasons ago, but if it hadn’t been for all the swirling complaints about quality in their other items, I might have thought it was just that particular SKU.  Some YouTubers have postulated the decline in bag quality is bc they can’t keep up with demand, so maybe there just isn’t that same demand for shoes?

Thanks everyone here for their contributions, I haven’t been this invested in a tpf thread in years.


----------



## gail13

sjunky13 said:


> Does anyone know about Chanel shoes? I feel they are still made very well. I love the sneakers and ballet flats.


Some of the shoes look beautifully made and come from small factories they collaborate with/have acquired in Italy. I found info on three shoe makers in Italy that Chanel collaborates with and these shoe makers also work with other luxury brands. Check out Ballin, Gensi for sneakers/sport shoes, and Roveda.


This website was nicely done and you can see the CC's.


> https://www.instagram.com/roveda1955/?hl=en


I also see that occasionally you can find shoes by these manufactures on Yoox or other sites.


----------



## papertiger

tulipfield said:


> @papertiger I am intrigued, do you have a picture anywhere of this vintage bag?
> 
> 
> I’ve had a good experience too—multiple pairs of ballerinas and slingbacks and a pair of Mary Janes.  I mentioned upthread I gave up on Chanel bc of two faulty pairs of platforms a few seasons ago, but if it hadn’t been for all the swirling complaints about quality in their other items, I might have thought it was just that particular SKU.  Some YouTubers have postulated the decline in bag quality is bc they can’t keep up with demand, so maybe there just isn’t that same demand for shoes?
> 
> Thanks everyone here for their contributions, I haven’t been this invested in a tpf thread in years.



It should be in the vintage ref thread


----------



## bagsaremyjam

Roie55 said:


> This is one of the best, most informative threads in a long time. Initially I was shocked at the resilience of the 19 and wondered what sorcery was in this bag - but now i'm considering it to be a future purchase due to its indestructability. I'm a vintage buyer so only have a small handful, but with all the talk of the quality of the new lines I think i'll stay vintage for a long time to come.
> While the 22 is a weird line for the brand, (I still think it has a dust bag look). I am that person looking on the internet for a padded puffer jacket looking long strap bag to use at the gym - which i now realise closely resembles the 22 style. So there is always a market.
> 
> An earlier post mentioned the chinese labour factories in Italy. Wasn't there some articles a few years ago about this, how earlier generations were brought there for labour. It's generations later now and they pride themselves on being skilled artisans, what i'm saying is not so much a slave labour type forced-workforce. (using slave labour as a loose term as i'm not sure how far back the earlier post is nor the term which was used to describe). There might still be many unfairly treated workforces as there always is; but i think the current practice is not like that as in some asiapac regions well known for the bad practices.



I’d like to concur on this as well. It dawned on me the info re: inside knowledge of Chanel factories using Chinese immigrants in sweat shop conditions dates back to a very long time ago, based on the timeframe of when that person worked for Chanel. I can’t remember the dates but it seemed to be 80+ years ago. I asked a seasoned SA (been with Chanel 30+ yrs) and they said it’s very outdated information and the conditions and general description of the type of people working is not at all accurate today.


----------



## nsughtnsugahyde

sjunky13 said:


> I love it too. It's great to be informed and brands should apricate the good feedback from their top loyal clients! This forum is free research for them.
> In regards to Chanel, they already have a winning formula so the videos and negativity doesn't really affect them badly, Hello advent calendar !



Bravo! I was just waiting for someone to bring up the Advent Calendar.  That was quite a misstep on their part.


----------



## ntntgo

bagsaremyjam said:


> I’d like to concur on this as well. It dawned on me the info re: inside knowledge of Chanel factories using Chinese immigrants in sweat shop conditions dates back to a very long time ago, based on the timeframe of when that person worked for Chanel. I can’t remember the dates but it seemed to be 80+ years ago. I asked a seasoned SA (been with Chanel 30+ yrs) and they said it’s very outdated information and the conditions and general description of the type of people working is not at all accurate today.



That’s very true. Not that it excuses how they were treated when brought from China but a lot of the Chinese went out on their own and are multimillionaires because they did.  Now the brands are subcontracting to them.  
There was some kind of labour raid in the 2010s that prompted Chanel to build that factory in Pulia. I’m
not saying it was a raid on Chanel directly. It was all of the factories in Prato. And other brands share that factory &/or have built in other cities in the NW area.  I say Chanel for the purposes of this thread. 
The people of Prato are upset that now people are being brought in from the ME, the Baltics & Northern African to be the workers.
It’s very much like a wheel. First this one is on top, then that one…Someone will always be the one run over. 
Someone way back in the thread said something about the super fakes becoming better quality. This is why. People learn the craft then go back to AP and start their own thing. They have access to all the same leathers & definitely the logo hardware. 
The super fakes are why insurance companies won’t accept on line certificates and most of the old school, reliable Chanel authenticators won’t do it from a picture for a bag post 2016. They want to see it and feel it. Even then some bags get authenticated incorrectly. 
Sorry OT again.


----------



## tulipfield

Did anyone on this thread ever read Dana Thomas's book _Deluxe: How Luxury Lost Its Luster_ many years back?  In the book she reveals (probably for the first time for many, this was published back in 2007) how many luxury labels were outsourcing production to low-wage countries and finishing the products in Western Europe, using Chinese labor in Italian factories, skimping on materials, and utilizing assembly line production.  (She also gave background on the transformation of small ateliers into brands in stables owned by the LVMHs and Kerings of the world.)

One interesting point was that out of the major luxury houses, she singled out Hermes, Louboutin, and Chanel as among the few that were still sticking to honest production methods and high-quality materials.  So for a time I felt safe shopping Chanel, until I began to see rumors about their production methods and complaints about defects crop up on tpf maybe some 8 or so years ago.  (I also noticed more recently some issues with Louboutin heels.)

My question is, what changed so quickly between 2007, when everything was supposedly fine, and the mid-2010s when complaints began to crop up?  Thomas was pretty scathing in her assessments of other fashion houses with quality and production issues, so I assume she was being honest about her assessment of Chanel at the time.


----------



## ntntgo

tulipfield said:


> Did anyone on this thread ever read Dana Thomas's book _Deluxe: How Luxury Lost Its Luster_ many years back?  In the book she reveals (probably for the first time for many, this was published back in 2007) how many luxury labels were outsourcing production to low-wage countries and finishing the products in Western Europe, using Chinese labor in Italian factories, skimping on materials, and utilizing assembly line production.  (She also gave background on the transformation of small ateliers into brands in stables owned by the LVMHs and Kerings of the world.)
> 
> One interesting point was that out of the major luxury houses, she singled out Hermes, Louboutin, and Chanel as among the few that were still sticking to honest production methods and high-quality materials.  So for a time I felt safe shopping Chanel, until I began to see rumors about their production methods and complaints about defects crop up on tpf maybe some 8 or so years ago.  (I also noticed more recently some issues with Louboutin heels.)
> 
> My question is, what changed so quickly between 2007, when everything was supposedly fine, and the mid-2010s when complaints began to crop up?  Thomas was pretty scathing in her assessments of other fashion houses with quality and production issues, so I assume she was being honest about her assessment of Chanel at the time.



Thank you for that. I’m going to read it. 
To your point about Louboutin, this is someone that I know personally and I love him to death but, you’re not wrong. A lot of high level people have left the organization. Obviously this is for another thread and mostly OT but Louboutin’s problems started when he accepted VC money from Exor who has previously only invested (that I know of) in automotive & sports. 
Back on to where that lines up with Chanel (they’re not alone). When you get VC money from investors that don’t have a fashion background or fashion isn’t the major part of their portfolio, corners start to get cut as they need profits not quality in order to keep investing in other companies.


----------



## bagsaremyjam

ntntgo said:


> That’s very true. Not that it excuses how they were treated when brought from China but a lot of the Chinese went out on their own and are multimillionaires because they did.  Now the brands are subcontracting to them.
> There was some kind of labour raid in the 2010s that prompted Chanel to build that factory in Pulia. I’m
> not saying it was a raid on Chanel directly. It was all of the factories in Prato. And other brands share that factory &/or have built in other cities in the NW area.  I say Chanel for the purposes of this thread.
> The people of Prato are upset that now people are being brought in from the ME, the Baltics & Northern African to be the workers.
> It’s very much like a wheel. First this one is on top, then that one…Someone will always be the one run over.
> Someone way back in the thread said something about the super fakes becoming better quality. This is why. People learn the craft then go back to AP and start their own thing. They have access to all the same leathers & definitely the logo hardware.
> The super fakes are why insurance companies won’t accept on line certificates and most of the old school, reliable Chanel authenticators won’t do it from a picture for a bag post 2016. They want to see it and feel it. Even then some bags get authenticated incorrectly.
> Sorry OT again.



I thought the same thing, that people must’ve worked in the factories and started producing super fakes when they left. You’d think they’d make them sign NDA’s or something similar, but I suppose it wouldn’t matter if they’re in another country. 

IMO the super fakes can sometimes look really good in photos, but not in person. To an untrained eye I could see how it could pass, but I’ve seen fakes that generally look good in the sense that the shape is in line with the real version and many wouldn’t be able to tell, but to me the material is easy to differentiate even from a distance. 

About 8 years ago I was scouring eBay for a Celine nano luggage bag. I owned it in a trio color and wanted one in black. I was heavily researching the site as I couldn’t trust many to be authentic (ie, addresses like Hong Kong, etc, were immediate red flags) but I wanted to score one at a better price  and stores were out of the black. One was somewhere in China, and although normally I wouldn’t purchase from this country because all the fakes originate here, but I naively convinced myself that well, real ones exist here too…I looked over the photos dozens of times, did so many comparisons. 

When I received the bag I immediately knew it was fake just by touch. But the bag looked so good someone who doesn’t own designer bags and/or isn’t familiar with a specific brand could easily be duped. The hardware didn’t feel right (it was so light), the bag didn’t feel substantial. The weight of leather and quality were not there. The stamping looked really good but there was something slightly off about it. 

It was the best looking fake I had seen, but even having said that, I could still immediately tell the differences without close examination. The feel of authentic bags is a world of a difference. But overall it was pretty surprising how on the surface, without being handled, if I were to see someone wearing this bag, I wouldn’t immediately think it’s fake. Where I live I see fake bags daily. They’re generally very obvious to me, even just passing a person on the street. I don’t understand the fake market, I am adamantly against it, but it is very interesting.


----------



## Coach Superfan

bagsaremyjam said:


> IMO the super fakes can sometimes look really good in photos, but not in person. To an untrained eye I could see how it could pass, but I’ve seen fakes that generally look good in the sense that the shape is in line with the real version and many wouldn’t be able to tell, but to me the material is easy to differentiate even from a distance.
> ......
> It was the best looking fake I had seen, but even having said that, I could still immediately tell the differences without close examination. The feel of authentic bags is a world of a difference. But overall it was pretty surprising how on the surface, without being handled, if I were to see someone wearing this bag, I wouldn’t immediately think it’s fake. Where I live I see fake bags daily. They’re generally very obvious to me, even just passing a person on the street. *I don’t understand the fake market, I am adamantly against it, but it is very interesting.*


This is a whole other heated topic. I think most (99%?) of us here are against the fake/replica market as well for various reasons. In short, it's a division between the Have and the Have nots that drives that market.


----------



## gail13

bagsaremyjam said:


> It was the best looking fake I had seen, but even having said that, I could still immediately tell the differences without close examination.




When some of the largest authenticators in the world have stopped authenticating certain bags or are hesitant to do so, wether Chanel or Hermes, because the fakes are THAT identical, its an issue. And these are the super fakes of today, not the fakes sold on Ebay five-eight  years ago.  The new super fakes are not $200 bags, they run into the thousands with a Hermes exotic. These do not have seams in wrong places or CC's not overlapping correctly etc.

 The super fakes are custom orders by word of mouth connections. Sadly, counterfeiters have made tons of advances in this field. You can have a bag made with the authentication number you desire; and that gold bar in the Chanel bag has made it easier to produce a likeness to Chanel bags. Chanel does not like anyone other than themselves to authenticate bags-look at how they have tried to shut down other large online resellers for selling 'fakes' .  There was some talk early on that gold bar was a chip, which its not. At least not at this time.

Counterfeiters today work in state of the art factories. They get their leather from the same tanneries . They have access to the hardware, thread, you name it.  With what is coming out now, its very very hard to know what you are getting if you are not buying from trusted sources.


----------



## ntntgo

gail13 said:


> When some of the largest authenticators in the world have stopped authenticating certain bags or are hesitant to do so, wether Chanel or Hermes, because the fakes are THAT identical, its an issue. And these are the super fakes of today, not the fakes sold on Ebay five-eight  years ago.  The new super fakes are not $200 bags, they run into the thousands with a Hermes exotic. These do not have seams in wrong places or CC's not overlapping correctly etc.
> 
> The super fakes are custom orders by word of mouth connections. Sadly, counterfeiters have made tons of advances in this field. You can have a bag made with the authentication number you desire; and that gold bar in the Chanel bag has made it easier to produce a likeness to Chanel bags. Chanel does not like anyone other than themselves to authenticate bags-look at how they have tried to shut down other large online resellers for selling 'fakes' .  There was some talk early on that gold bar was a chip, which its not. At least not at this time.
> 
> Counterfeiters today work in state of the art factories. They get their leather from the same tanneries . They have access to the hardware, thread, you name it.  With what is coming out now, its very very hard to know what you are getting if you are not buying from trusted sources.


OMG! Thank you. Having been someone who worked on the co-creation of the blockchain software, Aura, there was a lot of discussion on meetings with the companies that chose to participate in the project about the metal serial number plate.
Go into a boutique and ask them to scan your bag to track the lifecycle of the bag. There is no chip to scan so there’s no need to have any kind of scanner. That should tell you something right there. The metal plate DOES NOT contain any microchip. 
This is a quote from a Chanel director in the anti diversion division that I just got off the phone with, “The plates have no chip. There is no life cycle tracking and the only reason the sticker was replaced with the plate is because it can’t be removed so that it can be attached to a replica bag. There is no buyer information stored any differently than when we started putting the serial number in the computer to match the sale of the bag.” 
I hope that clarifies all of the misinformation that’s on the web (none of which is a statement from Chanel) that says there are chips embedded.


----------



## Coach Superfan

ntntgo said:


> OMG! Thank you. Having been someone who worked on the co-creation of the blockchain software, Aura, there was a lot of discussion on meetings with the companies that chose to participate in the project about the metal serial number plate.
> Go into a boutique and ask them to scan your bag to track the lifecycle of the bag. There is no chip to scan so there’s no need to have any kind of scanner. That should tell you something right there. The metal plate DOES NOT contain any microchip.
> This is a quote from a Chanel director in the anti diversion division that I just got off the phone with, “The plates have no chip. There is no life cycle tracking and the only reason the sticker was replaced with the plate is because it can’t be removed so that it can be attached to a replica bag. There is no buyer information stored any differently than when we started putting the serial number in the computer to match the sale of the bag.”
> I hope that clarifies all of the misinformation that’s on the web (none of which is a statement from Chanel) that says there are chips embedded.


Right?!? I find it amusing that several reputable online resellers refer to the metal serial number as a microchip.


----------



## ntntgo

Coach Superfan said:


> Right?!? I find it amusing that several reputable online resellers refer to the metal serial number as a microchip.


First of all, the metal has to be super thin to even read a microchip through it, if they did have it and to my knowledge, there is only one company making the chips that could be read through metal and they own the patent on it. It also has to be tin plated steel in order to not interfere with the signal. This is regarding metal. 
There is so much disinformation on the internet. 
The thought that 
1.) They can store personal information like that without having a consent signed is just insane and 
2.) To think that a chip could be read through metal as thick as that plate is ridiculous (insert eye roll)
Edited for another auto correct issue.


----------



## gail13

Coach Superfan said:


> Right?!? I find it amusing that several reputable online resellers refer to the metal serial number as a microchip.


It's because that's what Chanel called it, or various SA's referred to it as. But if you think about it, Chanel wants nothing to do with authenticating anyones bags in the past and there are no chip readers in the stores. And is it legal to store all your personal info on a chip without your permission?


----------



## gail13

ntntgo said:


> First of all, the metal has to be super thin to even read a microchip through it, if they did have it and to my knowledge, there is only one company making the chips that could be read through metal and they own the patent on it. It also has to be tin plated steel in order to not interfere with the signal. This is regarding metal.
> There is so much disinformation on the internet.
> The thought that
> 1.) They can store personal information like that without having a consent signed is just insane and
> 2.) To think that a chip could be read through metal as thick as that plate is ridiculous (insert eye roll)
> Edited for another auto correct issue.


Jinx!


----------



## sjunky13

gail13 said:


> Are there any CC cosmetics or brushes etc you think are really well made and good purchases?


Yes! I love the touch up brush #104. Eye brush 204 is great! The shape is perfect for smoking eyes out. The foundations are also lovely . I love Sublimage! My fav Chanel beaute item is the Stylo Yeux eyeliners, they last and colors are beautiful. A must have!
 They didn't renew Luci Pica's contract thank god. So maybe we will see something else than red shadow, blush and lips.


----------



## sjunky13

tulipfield said:


> @papertiger I am intrigued, do you have a picture anywhere of this vintage bag?
> 
> 
> I’ve had a good experience too—multiple pairs of ballerinas and slingbacks and a pair of Mary Janes.  I mentioned upthread I gave up on Chanel bc of two faulty pairs of platforms a few seasons ago, but if it hadn’t been for all the swirling complaints about quality in their other items, I might have thought it was just that particular SKU.  Some YouTubers have postulated the decline in bag quality is bc they can’t keep up with demand, so maybe there just isn’t that same demand for shoes?
> 
> Thanks everyone here for their contributions, I haven’t been this invested in a tpf thread in years.


I keep buying the shoes as I have never had any issues! Good point about demand for shoes!


----------



## sjunky13

So what's on everyone's Chanel wish list? 

In all seriousness. Are we still going to buy bags?


----------



## Swanky

sjunky13 said:


> So what's on everyone's Chanel wish list?
> 
> In all seriousness. Are we still going to buy bags?



I’ll still be buying


----------



## Coach Superfan

sjunky13 said:


> So what's on everyone's Chanel wish list?
> 
> In all seriousness. Are we still going to buy bags?


well after @TraceySH put her 19 through the ringer for us here, that one is definitely staying on my list  i've legit been eyeing that bag for 2 years.


----------



## Coach Superfan

sjunky13 said:


> Yes! I love the touch up brush #104. Eye brush 204 is great! The shape is perfect for smoking eyes out. The foundations are also lovely . I love Sublimage! My fav Chanel beaute item is the Stylo Yeux eyeliners, they last and colors are beautiful. A must have!
> They didn't renew Luci Pica's contract thank god. So maybe we will see something else than red shadow, blush and lips.


How do these brushes compare to more reasonably priced makeup brands? If they aren't willing to divulge the materials, how do we know they are better in quality than Sigma, MAC brushes or even Sephora brand (to be extreme here)? Is there a noticeable difference in how they apply makeup?


----------



## Christofle

Coach Superfan said:


> How do these brushes compare to more reasonably priced makeup brands? If they aren't willing to divulge the materials, how do we know they are better in quality than Sigma, MAC brushes or even Sephora brand (to be extreme here)? Is there a noticeable difference in how they apply makeup?


They are okay but nothing to write home about. Much better off going with a natural bristle brushes from the likes of chikuhodo or other specialty manufacturer.









						CHIKUHODO
					

cosmetic/make-up brush,Kumano-brush,OEM



					www.chikuhodo.com


----------



## Love Of My Life

Christofle said:


> They are okay but nothing to write home about. Much better off going with a natural bristle brushes from the likes of chikuhodo or other specialty manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHIKUHODO
> 
> 
> cosmetic/make-up brush,Kumano-brush,OEM
> 
> 
> 
> www.chikuhodo.com



I'm a fan of the Chikuhodo brushes particularly the Z series.. I've had them for years
& they are exactly as described..
I purchased mine from VisageUSA & FUDE BEauty


----------



## Roie55

sjunky13 said:


> So what's on everyone's Chanel wish list?
> 
> In all seriousness. Are we still going to buy bags?


yes - i'd like a reissue flap one day, i have 2 reissue camera styles. vintage for sure.


----------



## Roie55

tulipfield said:


> Did anyone on this thread ever read Dana Thomas's book _Deluxe: How Luxury Lost Its Luster_ many years back?  In the book she reveals (probably for the first time for many, this was published back in 2007) how many luxury labels were outsourcing production to low-wage countries and finishing the products in Western Europe, *using Chinese labor in Italian factories*, skimping on materials, and utilizing assembly line production.  (She also gave background on the transformation of small ateliers into brands in stables owned by the LVMHs and Kerings of the world.)


Wasn't this also a way to get the 'made in Italy'?


----------



## Guccigal16

TraceySH said:


> Yes, Hermes discloses in GREAT detail. But they've got their own issues too, and all machine made (except B, K, & a few parts of the C). I've noticed some of their leathers are thinner lately tho. You also said Chanel's lambskin is delicate. And, ummm, clearly it's not. Unless it's on a classic then it falls apart. I have some great pics of a pink lambskin jumbo I got last year that arrived discolored just from being in a box (BN from boutique). It was horrid. And Chanel did NOT stand behind that one (later the whole line was recalled).
> 
> I am not here to convince you. I really don't care if you buy or not. I have bought more Chanel than probably anyone on this forum. My posts here are for people who welcome information about making expensive purchases. They are not for people like you who don't want to hear, don't want to investigate, and don't want to see. So if it's not helpful for you, just move on. No need to belabor a point that you can't substantiate.
> 
> What you DO say, that's key, is that you "don't know". And you say that quite a few times. And this, THIS, is exactly the point. NO one knows anything 100% because Chanel chooses that. They choose to withhold information, withhold production and materials specificity, withhold transparency in the manufacturing chain, along with all the other things they keep from their customers (product information, colors, dimensions, release dates, rules, shipping restrictions, availability, exceptions, etc). They do it in all other areas too, RTW, even the diamonds that come in their fine jewelry (color? clarity? no disclosures). It's not circumscribed to "leather" products, it's the company approach in general. If that works for you, then great!


Bravo!


----------



## fantajisan

Coach Superfan said:


> How do these brushes compare to more reasonably priced makeup brands? If they aren't willing to divulge the materials, how do we know they are better in quality than Sigma, MAC brushes or even Sephora brand (to be extreme here)? Is there a noticeable difference in how they apply makeup?





Christofle said:


> They are okay but nothing to write home about. Much better off going with a natural bristle brushes from the likes of chikuhodo or other specialty manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHIKUHODO
> 
> 
> cosmetic/make-up brush,Kumano-brush,OEM
> 
> 
> 
> www.chikuhodo.com





Love Of My Life said:


> I'm a fan of the Chikuhodo brushes particularly the Z series.. I've had them for years
> & they are exactly as described..
> I purchased mine from VisageUSA & FUDE BEauty


Apologies for going on a tangent here, but I have way too many brushes. I don't have Chanel brushes specifically, but do have old natural bristle brushes from Tom Ford, and a variety of Chikuhodo, Wayne Goss, Sonia G, Charlotte Tilbury, etc. I've also tried plenty of synthetic brushes back in the day like Sigma (but there's no comparison to natural bristle brushes imo). Tom Ford are quite scratchy by comparison to Japanese brushes, though I'm not a fan of the original Sonia brushes either. I quite like Rephr though, which happen to be reasonably priced too. They have very nice "soft" density to them, where something like Wayne Goss is more wispy.


----------



## fantajisan

Coach Superfan said:


> well after @TraceySH put her 19 through the ringer for us here, that one is definitely staying on my list  i've legit been eyeing that bag for 2 years.



Would love to get a "lambskin" CF made of whatever Tracey's C19 is made of  Don't even need to know what it is


----------



## Roie55

OH MY GOODNESS. I have just watched the 'What is bonded leather' video linked earlier in this thread. Adding here again - its a must see and only a few minutes long:  https://eikenshop.com/en-au/blogs/the-traveller-notebook/what-is-bonded-leather

He says very clearly and demonstrates how bonded leather is the particle board equivalent, if you look at 100% leather is the solid timber. Reason it's used is lighter, gives the feel & cheaper option. CHEAPER option. And that layer can be less than a millimetre thin. It could even be sprayed on like a paint job considering it can be made from filing and shavings. How is this sold at the price point they are gouging people for?

Ladies there is plenty for room over in my favourite space the Chloe house. We have 100% leather and we welcome everyone.


----------



## JamaisAssez

Are there ANY OTHER luxury brands NOT OWNED by LVMH, Kering, Richemont, the Prada Group NOR ANY OTHER conglomerates, OTHER than Chanel and Hermes which offer a large range of products? Serious question.

So, just like I try to avoid shopping through Amazon for the reason that these megacompanies are becoming too big to fail, I try whenever possible not to shop at conglomerates brands.

Tracey, let me know if you’d like me to take down the post, I realize it’s off topic. My apologies.


----------



## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> Are there ANY OTHER luxury brands NOT OWNED by LVMH, Kering, Richemont, the Prada Group NOR ANY OTHER conglomerates, OTHER than Chanel and Hermes which offer a large range of products? Serious question.
> 
> So, just like I try to avoid shopping through Amazon for the reason that these megacompanies are becoming too big to fail, I try whenever possible not to shop at conglomerates brands.
> 
> Tracey, let me know if you’d like me to take down the post, I realize it’s off topic. My apologies.


You’re fine! This thread has become a catch all for so many things,
But I feel like we are all expressing sort of global confusion, frustration and inquisitiveness around the marketplace practices as a whole. My hope is that the thread actually is entirely on topic, as it will engender better, more informed and confident decisions


----------



## claritysunshine

sjunky13 said:


> So what's on everyone's Chanel wish list?
> 
> In all seriousness. Are we still going to buy bags?



I’ll still be buying too, still on the hunt for a beige clair jumbo CF and have not had any problems with my reissue, boy or medium CF, all purchased from the boutique in the last two years. 

Am considering the C19 too after seeing how indestructible it is. Half wondering if it’s bulletproof


----------



## gail13

Im pretty sure that there are other bags that are bonded leather too. Looking at the onslaught of small shiny bags and I'm suspicious of these newer things. I am interested in buying if I know what Im getting. Trust in a brand is important, feeling like they will stand behind their products and they are honest about what is being sold. But if you ask the brand "what is this item made of" and they won't tell you, how do we respond?  Is it ok if you wear a bag two or three times and it peels and you can't resell it because its damaged?

In no way am I a designer, but its not hard to look at the 22 bag design and know that it should have had a reinforced casing where the chain slides as well as grommets. There could not have been a thorough test drive of the 19 or 22 bag. No, these bags are not meant to be well used or abused, but I would expect light wear and tear is factored into any wear testing.

One of my friends who is watching this thread messaged me and said she would be furious if she went to the grocery store and bought a cut of meat labeled steak, but after buying it discovered it was something completely different disguised as steak. True enough.


----------



## TraceySH

O


gail13 said:


> Im pretty sure that there are other bags that are bonded leather too. Looking at the onslaught of small shiny bags and I'm suspicious of these newer things. I am interested in buying if I know what Im getting. Trust in a brand should be important, feeling like they will stand behind their products and they are honest about what is being sold. But if you ask the brand "what is this item made of" and they won't tell you, is that ok? Is it ok if you wear a bag two or three times and it peels and the value plummets?
> 
> In no way am I a designer, but its not hard to look at the 22 bag design and know that it should have had a reinforced casing where the chain slides as well as grommets. There could not have been a thorough test drive of the 19 or 22 bag. No, these bags are not meant to be well used or abused, but I would expect light wear and tear is factored into any wear testing.
> 
> One of my friends who is watching this thread messaged me and said she would be furious if she went to the grocery store and bought a cut of meat labeled steak, but after buying it discovered it was something completely different disguised as steak. True enough.


All true. I think most consumers desire, or even demand, absolute transparency. We are particular about how food is sourced, the air we breathe, the emissions from vehicles we drive, animal fur, recycled plastics, carcinogens and hormone disrupters in cosmetics, growth hormones used on farms etc. To me it’s bizarre that people don’t think to (or rather want to) know what they are buying, wearing, or how it got to them as they do in probably all other areas of their consumption. 

My guess is that association with a brand (the psychological hijacking of common sense) does more for their ego than looking at or searching for details that SHOULD matter. In essence, people choose denial and make excuses why their behaviors are hypocritical. They can’t bear to let go of the way something makes them FEEL about themselves, the enhancement it brings to their self-esteem, and maybe the improvement it adds to their insecurities. 

This is the definition of cognitive dissonance, and it’s pervasive in the material world.


----------



## ntntgo

TraceySH said:


> association with a brand (the psychological hijacking of common sense) does more for their ego than looking at or searching for details that SHOULD matter.


THIS is exactly why companies like Chanel (trying to stay OT at least brand wise) can get away with selling bonded leather or pleather at the prices of actual high quality leather. 
The more CC logos or the bigger the logo, the more people want it. It’s called emotional branding. Brand loyalty is created by how that CC logo makes people feel about themselves. The attachment to the logo is about how people want to see themselves or how they want others to see them. Not about who they really are. 
When you see someone like a Lois Pope or Sunny Sessa around Palm Beach, there’s not a logo in sight. Why? They don’t need a logo to feel an elevated sense of wealth or status. Quite the contrary. They‘d prefer people not know their status. In fact, they’d prefer that people don’t even know who they are. (Ugh! They’re going to kill me for using them as examples.) 
Back to the psychological warfare being waged on the, let’s call it the down the street consumer.  Slapping Chanel on bonded leather is bad. The fact that people are ok with it is worse.  People wanting to feel that warm glow of Chanel or CC on their shoulder and being tricked into paying $5500+ for a bonded leather bag, that’s the worst. 
In marketing Chanel‘s type of marketing falls under the category of sensory branding because they rely on stimulating excitement around their product. FYI, I’m not coming up with this on my own. It’s marketing 101 and yes, there are literal brand marketing sub categories that are deployed to achieve their goal of emotional branding. Which is basically creating a consumer who is brand loyal, won’t ask too many questions about the quality of what they’re buying, and will continue to buy regardless of poor customer service, declination of said quality, and continue to buy as quality decreases and prices increase. Hence, the 22 bag. 
No one besides me thinks this is a test run to see how far they can dilute the quality of the product, slap Chanel on it with a $5500+ price tag and see if people will still buy? Seriously? 
Someone asked if we will continue to buy Chanel. For me, new bags, no way. Vintage, yes. Shoes, sneakers maybe. RTW, only if they fix the laughable quality and bring back the dual line. Fine jewelry, nope. If I want noticeably named FJ, I’ll stick with VCA, Cartier, etc.
This is thread is what I used to love about TPF. The sharing of information and how the topic that is initially used to start the thread morphs then expands to include an increasing amount of info.
I realize we get OT but if OP is ok with it going sideways sometimes, then I hope we keep this going.


----------



## TraceySH

ntntgo said:


> THIS is exactly why companies like Chanel (trying to stay OT at least brand wise) can get away with selling bonded leather or pleather at the prices of actual high quality leather.
> The more CC logos or the bigger the logo, the more people want it. It’s called emotional branding. Brand loyalty is created by how that CC logo makes people feel about themselves. The attachment to the logo is about how people want to see themselves or how they want others to see them. Not about who they really are.
> When you see someone like a Lois Pope or Sunny Sessa around Palm Beach, there’s not a logo in sight. Why? They don’t need a logo to feel an elevated sense of wealth or status. Quite the contrary. They‘d prefer people not know their status. In fact, they’d prefer that people don’t even know who they are. (Ugh! They’re going to kill me for using them as examples.)
> Back to the psychological warfare being waged on the, let’s call it the down the street consumer.  Slapping Chanel on bonded leather is bad. The fact that people are ok with it is worse.  People wanting to feel that warm glow of Chanel or CC on their shoulder and being tricked into paying $5500+ for a bonded leather bag, that’s the worst.
> In marketing Chanel‘s type of marketing falls under the category of sensory branding because they rely on stimulating excitement around their product. FYI, I’m not coming up with this on my own. It’s marketing 101 and yes, there are literal brand marketing sub categories that are deployed to achieve their goal of emotional branding. Which is basically creating a consumer who is brand loyal, won’t ask too many questions about the quality of what they’re buying, and will continue to buy regardless of poor customer service, declination of said quality, and continue to buy as quality decreases and prices increase. Hence, the 22 bag.
> No one besides me thinks this is a test run to see how far they can dilute the quality of the product, slap Chanel on it with a $5500+ price tag and see if people will still buy? Seriously?
> Someone asked if we will continue to buy Chanel. For me, new bags, no way. Vintage, yes. Shoes, sneakers maybe. RTW, only if they fix the laughable quality and bring back the dual line. Fine jewelry, nope. If I want noticeably named FJ, I’ll stick with VCA, Cartier, etc.
> This is thread is what I used to love about TPF. The sharing of information and how the topic that is initially used to start the thread morphs then expands to include an increasing amount of info.
> I realize we get OT but if OP is ok with it going sideways sometimes, then I hope we keep this going.


Excellent post!


----------



## cerulean blue

JamaisAssez said:


> Are there ANY OTHER luxury brands NOT OWNED by LVMH, Kering, Richemont, the Prada Group NOR ANY OTHER conglomerates, OTHER than Chanel and Hermes which offer a large range of products? Serious question.
> 
> So, just like I try to avoid shopping through Amazon for the reason that these megacompanies are becoming too big to fail, I try whenever possible not to shop at conglomerates brands.
> 
> Tracey, let me know if you’d like me to take down the post, I realize it’s off topic. My apologies.



I think so, (pls correct me if I'm wrong), Salvatore Ferragamo, Tod's (owns Schiaparelli), Moncler (owns Stone Island), Burberry, Ermenegildo Zegna, Canali, Missoni, Kiton, Brunello Cucinelli. Probably many more I haven't thought of.

Then, there are those niche, up-and-coming, and/or avant-garde houses like COMME des GARÇONS, Haider Ackermann, Vetements, BODE, The Row etc

Shoe designers: Christian Louboutin (EXOR owns a minority stake), Edward Green, Manolo Blahnik, George Cleverley, John Lobb (UK, John Lobb Intl is owned by Hermes)


----------



## TraceySH

cerulean blue said:


> I think so, (pls correct me if I'm wrong), Salvatore Ferragamo, Tod's (owns Schiaparelli), Moncler (owns Stone Island), Burberry, Ermenegildo Zegna, Canali, Missoni, Kiton, Brunello Cucinelli. Probably many more I haven't thought of.
> 
> Then, there are those niche, up-and-coming, and/or avant-garde houses like COMME des GARÇONS, Haider Ackermann, Vetements, BODE, The Row etc
> 
> Shoe designers: Christian Louboutin (EXOR owns a minority stake), Edward Green, Manolo Blahnik, George Cleverley, John Lobb (UK, John Lobb Intl is owned by Hermes)


Valentino, Dolce Gabbana, Schouler, Valextra, Tom Ford


----------



## JamaisAssez

Thank you @cerulean blue and @TraceySH for the insightful replies. I learn a lot from both of you.

Valentino is owned by Qatar-based investment group Mayhoola who also owns Balmain, although I reckon its luxury portfolio is nowhere near the scale of LVMH, Kering and Richemont.

Zegna went public recently and also owns Thom Browne. As a gentleman I love their products although I also perceive a change in quality recently.

Someone mentioned earlier (perhaps it was you Tracey, or @ntntgo), that Chanel was prepping itself for sale, until the pandemic hit then they registered record numbers. Could you imagine if LVMH bought Chanel? Would it be for better or for worse? Lol!


----------



## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> Thank you @cerulean blue and @TraceySH for the insightful replies. I learn a lot from both of you.
> 
> Valentino is owned by Qatar-based investment group Mayhoola who also owns Balmain, although I reckon its luxury portfolio is nowhere near the scale of LVMH, Kering and Richemont.
> 
> Zegna went public recently and also owns Thom Browne. As a gentleman I love their products although I also perceive a change in quality recently.
> 
> Someone mentioned earlier (perhaps it was you Tracey, or @ntntgo), that Chanel was prepping itself for sale, until the pandemic hit then they registered record numbers. Could you imagine if LVMH bought Chanel? Would it be for better or for worse? Lol!


I mean, honestly better. IMHO. I’ve received better CS and more perks as a VVIC w/ LV than at other house. They are just beyond impressive.


----------



## Jayne1

fantajisan said:


> though I'm not a fan of the original Sonia brushes either.


I like my Sonia brushes, maybe more than my Hakuhodo and Goss and as much as my Chikuhodo. I wonder if I got later batches...


----------



## Jayne1

ntntgo said:


> The super fakes are why insurance companies won’t accept on line certificates and most of the old school, reliable Chanel authenticators won’t do it from a picture for a bag post 2016. They want to see it and feel it. Even then some bags get authenticated incorrectly.
> Sorry OT again.


Also OT, but I was wondering what you think about Entrupy for Chanel or other high end bags. 

I wouldn't trust a seller who uses it, but I'm such a skeptic these days.


----------



## sjunky13

Coach Superfan said:


> How do these brushes compare to more reasonably priced makeup brands? If they aren't willing to divulge the materials, how do we know they are better in quality than Sigma, MAC brushes or even Sephora brand (to be extreme here)? Is there a noticeable difference in how they apply makeup?


I am a big fan of FUDE and collect brushes. I mean they all get the job done, just like bags. But the difference is feel vs performance for me.


----------



## sjunky13

I just purchased a Fendi Peekaboo. I do not know why the Fendi forum is not bumping. The leather is amazing and the bags are beautiful! I guess the brand doesn't have SM clout?
I feel Fendi is on fire! I will always love Chanel and the styles work for me. I am just surprised at the Fendi leathers and how lovely it is  and how much bag for the price. I am going to a Fendi event and I will ask about the composition of leathers. I really hope there is no drama on Fendi leathers! @TracySH , so you know anything?


----------



## fantajisan

sjunky13 said:


> I just purchased a Fendi Peekaboo. I do not know why the Fendi forum is not bumping. The leather is amazing and the bags are beautiful! I guess the brand doesn't have SM clout?
> I feel Fendi is on fire! I will always love Chanel and the styles work for me. I am just surprised at the Fendi leathers and how lovely it is  and how much bag for the price. I am going to a Fendi event and I will ask about the composition of leathers. I really hope there is no drama on Fendi leathers! @TracySH , so you know anything?


I bought a selleria mini peekaboo earlier this year. It’s very well made imo (can’t find a single thing wrong with it), and the design is quite practical (no useless love note pockets whose only purpose is to leave a dent in the flap).


----------



## Love Of My Life

TraceySH said:


> Valentino, Dolce Gabbana, Schouler, Valextra, Tom Ford



Estee Lauder is in talks to acquire the luxury brand Tom Ford in the arena of 3billion & upwards

Just asking the question
Is Valentino still part of the Marzotto Group as well as
NEO Investment Partners having an interest in Valextra


----------



## TraceySH

Love Of My Life said:


> Estee Lauder is in talks to acquire the luxury brand Tom Ford in the arena of 3billion & upwards
> 
> Just checking to see if this info is  correct?
> Marzotto Group still owns Valentino
> NEO Investment Partners having an interest in Valextra


I saw that about EL buying out TF. They previously had purchased his cosmetics co, I don't know how many years back? I guess it would make sense to buy the rest. HOWEVER, what a very odd thing for a huge cosmetics conglomerate to own a luxury fashion house? I wonder if that might mean they are on the hunt to acquire other non-cosmetic industry namesakes?

EDIT: it appears EL has always owned the licenses to TF beauty and was a partnership. This would be a full buyout of everything TF.


----------



## TPFer2015

Love Of My Life said:


> Estee Lauder is in talks to acquire the luxury brand Tom Ford in the arena of 3billion & upwards
> 
> Just asking the question
> Is Valentino still part of the Marzotto Group as well as
> NEO Investment Partners having an interest in Valextra


Yes, last I know, Neo Partners still own the majority of Valextra alongside the Carminati family. Neo has a portfolio of luxury/consumer holdings I believe, including Victoria Beckham, plus premium confectionary like Laduree.


----------



## Love Of My Life

TraceySH said:


> I saw that about EL buying out TF. They previously had purchased his cosmetics co, I don't know how many years back? I guess it would make sense to buy the rest. HOWEVER, what a very odd thing for a huge cosmetics conglomerate to own a luxury fashion house? I wonder if that might mean they are on the hunt to acquire other non-cosmetic industry namesakes?
> 
> EDIT: it appears EL has always owned the licenses to TF beauty and was a partnership. This would be a full buyout of everything TF.



Lauder family has tremendous resources. No reason for them not to get into non-cosmetic industry namesakes
& to acquire TF would be a great start

There are still many important established designers as well as new designers here in the US for Lauder to back/own
It would be nice to see this in the future


----------



## TraceySH

Love Of My Life said:


> Lauder family has tremendous resources. No reason for them not to get into non-cosmetic industry namesakes
> & to acquire TF would be a great start
> 
> There are still many important established designers as well as new designers here in the US for Lauder to back/own
> It would be nice to see this in the future


Agree completely. That would be something very fun to watch evolve.


----------



## zaraha

Something to add to chanel no 5 rose field; they play piano notes to roses.  
“Because his farm is organic, they refuse to just blast it with fertilizer. Instead, they’ve come up with a different, two-pronged approach. First, they allow nature to do its job by maintaining grass to attract aphids, an insect that ladybugs and others feed off of, which keeps the ecosystem’s balance, hence helping with the fungus. And second, they introduced something a bit more experimental: They play piano notes to the roses. “We perceive it as music, but plants perceive it as frequency,” said Mul. According to him, they’ve observed a positive effect on the roses, boosting their immune system and allowing them to ward off the fungus better. They’ve been trying this method for a year and plan on testing it for the next two years to notice”
Full article…
https://www.thecut.com/2022/08/the-future-smells-like-chanel-no-5.html


----------



## BorntoRunandShop

sjunky13 said:


> I just purchased a Fendi Peekaboo. I do not know why the Fendi forum is not bumping. The leather is amazing and the bags are beautiful! I guess the brand doesn't have SM clout?
> I feel Fendi is on fire! I will always love Chanel and the styles work for me. I am just surprised at the Fendi leathers and how lovely it is  and how much bag for the price. I am going to a Fendi event and I will ask about the composition of leathers. I really hope there is no drama on Fendi leathers! @TracySH , so you know anything?


I love my Fendi Peekaboo bags!  They are one of my go to bags for work. Love the ones with the phyton handles. I agree about the leather.  Another one that I know is old school and outdated for many, but for me it works perfect for my work items - the Celine luggage!

Edit to add that I’m def on the fence about the latest Chanel bags and even RTW.   I’m sure I will be buying again soon. For now I’m not seeing anything that really catches my attention.  I’m into purple lately so I thought about the purple CF. Just a color that I didn’t care for many years lol and somehow lately it’s catching my attention.


----------



## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> Something to add to chanel no 5 rose field; they play piano notes to roses.
> “Because his farm is organic, they refuse to just blast it with fertilizer. Instead, they’ve come up with a different, two-pronged approach. First, they allow nature to do its job by maintaining grass to attract aphids, an insect that ladybugs and others feed off of, which keeps the ecosystem’s balance, hence helping with the fungus. And second, they introduced something a bit more experimental: They play piano notes to the roses. “We perceive it as music, but plants perceive it as frequency,” said Mul. According to him, they’ve observed a positive effect on the roses, boosting their immune system and allowing them to ward off the fungus better. They’ve been trying this method for a year and plan on testing it for the next two years to notice”
> Full article…
> https://www.thecut.com/2022/08/the-future-smells-like-chanel-no-5.html


I wish I could say any of this is true, but commercial perfumes do not use natural floral absolutes. Chanel no 5 was one of the first perfumes years ago to use synthetics, but not THE first. Anything labeled "fragrance" automatically means synthetics. Ever sneeze or see someone sneeze when they spray a perfume? Or those people with allergies to fragrances? A big reason is that our brain doesn't know how to process synthetic chemicals in commercial perfumes. 

There are many many many derivatives that clone the exact scent of musk, rose, jasmine, etc. Have you ever smelled real tuberose? It smells like pungent dirt. Or lily? Guess what? Lillies don't smell. It's all synthetic, aldehydes, indoles. 

Natural molecules, especially in floral absolutes, are VERY unstable. When mixed with anything else. they break apart and re-bind to other molecules. So say you mix rose absolute and jasmine grandiflorum together, you'd think logically, this will smell like rose and jasmine? NOPE! It will smell like something totally different that smells like NEITHER rose nor jasmine. The molecules break apart, re-bind, and become something else altogether. 

The reason commercial fragrance companies use synthetics, other than the fact that real floral absolutes don't last very long, spoil in light, cannot withstand temperature variations etc, is so that when the blend a jasmine-like fragrance oil with a rose-like fragrance oil, the molecules remain intact. So, it smells like ROSE and JASMINE. 

The quality of the synthetics vary greatly, for sure. But they are not using actual roses. Companies can even label something "natural" or "organic" but that STILL doesn't mean it's rose absolute oil. It can be a natural derivative like linalool, geraniol or citranellol, which come from other types of plants. 

This is pretty OT, but I wanted to post since I have about 600 essential oils/ absolutes in my lab at home & have been making my own perfumes and skincare for almost a decade, sourcing the wildest most rare and intoxicating stuff from all over the world. It's an excellent hobby! But there is a lot there in terms of what the public thinks is natural and what is really going on....There's a lot more here, actually a ton more, regarding cosmetics etc but I can leave that for another day and another thread. 

Here are the ingredients dissected by a master perfumer of No. 5...


----------



## JVSXOXO

TraceySH said:


> I wish I could say any of this is true, but commercial perfumes do not use natural floral absolutes. Chanel no 5 was one of the first perfumes years ago to use synthetics, but not THE first. Anything labeled "fragrance" automatically means synthetics. Ever sneeze or see someone sneeze when they spray a perfume? Or those people with allergies to fragrances? A big reason is that our brain doesn't know how to process synthetic chemicals in commercial perfumes.
> 
> There are many many many derivatives that clone the exact scent of musk, rose, jasmine, etc. Have you ever smelled real tuberose? It smells like pungent dirt. Or lily? *Guess what? Lillies don't smell.* It's all synthetic, aldehydes, indoles.
> 
> Natural molecules, especially in floral absolutes, are VERY unstable. When mixed with anything else. they break apart and re-bind to other molecules. So say you mix rose absolute and jasmine grandiflorum together, you'd think logically, this will smell like rose and jasmine? NOPE! It will smell like something totally different that smells like NEITHER rose nor jasmine. The molecules break apart, re-bind, and become something else altogether.
> 
> The reason commercial fragrance companies use synthetics, other than the fact that real floral absolutes don't last very long, spoil in light, cannot withstand temperature variations etc, is so that when the blend a jasmine-like fragrance oil with a rose-like fragrance oil, the molecules remain intact. So, it smells like ROSE and JASMINE.
> 
> The quality of the synthetics vary greatly, for sure. But they are not using actual roses. Companies can even label something "natural" or "organic" but that STILL doesn't mean it's rose absolute oil. It can be a natural derivative like linalool, geraniol or citranellol, which come from other types of plants.
> 
> This is pretty OT, but I wanted to post since I have about 600 essential oils/ absolutes in my lab at home & have been making my own perfumes and skincare for almost a decade, sourcing the wildest most rare and intoxicating stuff from all over the world. It's an excellent hobby! But there is a lot there in terms of what the public thinks is natural and what is really going on....There's a lot more here, actually a ton more, regarding cosmetics etc but I can leave that for another day and another thread.
> 
> Here are the ingredients dissected by a master perfumer of No. 5...
> 
> View attachment 5583976


I’m confused by the bolded since I’ve encountered plenty of fragrant lilies 
- ones in my garden can be smelled from feet away. Not disagreeing at all about the use of synthetics though.


----------



## TraceySH

JVSXOXO said:


> I’m confused by the bolded since I’ve encountered plenty of fragrant lilies
> - ones in my garden can be smelled from feet away. Not disagreeing at all about the use of synthetics though.


They are mute flowers. They smell but cannot produce aromatic materials.

Many of the flowers out there can have the most wonderful aroma in the natural state, but cannot be harvested to use elsewhere. 

Gardenia is an example of one that is nearly impossible to extract any aroma from. One of the best ways, believe it or not, is to extract it in fat...and even then, depending on the extraction (cannot use heat), the aroma never duplicates the smell you experience IRL.


----------



## papertiger

Love Of My Life said:


> Estee Lauder is in talks to acquire the luxury brand Tom Ford in the arena of 3billion & upwards
> 
> Just asking the question
> Is Valentino still part of the Marzotto Group as well as
> NEO Investment Partners having an interest in Valextra



Estée Lauder already own Tom Ford Beauty, the most profitable part of 'Tom Ford'.


----------



## 880

JamaisAssez said:


> that Chanel was prepping itself for sale, until the pandemic hit then they registered record numbers.


I thought chanel released limited financial numbers in 2018, reported in The NYT, and people then thought they were positioning the brand to be purchased. I thought even back then they demonstrated that they were incredibly profitable

@TraceySH , I thought Guerlain was the first, famously, to use synthetic vanillin


----------



## Love Of My Life

papertiger said:


> Estée Lauder already own Tom Ford Beauty, the most profitable part of 'Tom Ford'.


To be clear, @papertiger, Estee Lauder is in talks to acquire a move that marks the beauty
company's first foray into luxury fashion. The global cosmetics company already owns the
license to Tom Ford beauty , fragrance& the make up line developed in partnership with the
group & launched in 2011.


----------



## Love Of My Life

880 said:


> I thought chanel released limited financial numbers in 2018, reported in The NYT, and people then thought they were positioning the brand to be purchased. I thought even back then they demonstrated that they were incredibly profitable
> 
> @TraceySH , I thought Guerlain was the first, famously, to use synthetic vanillin



Legend has it that Jacques Guerlain would have poured a few drops of synthetic vanillin into the perfume
JICKY & just to try it out& ended creating SHALIMAR
As many of us know, Shalimar was created in honor of Shah Jahan's late wife.


----------



## papertiger

Love Of My Life said:


> To be clear, @papertiger, Estee Lauder is in talks to acquire a move that marks the beauty
> company's first foray into luxury fashion. The global cosmetics company already owns the
> license to Tom Ford beauty , fragrance& the make up line developed in partnership with the
> group & launched in 2011.


I am aware of that.
I am aware of that

The current owners of Chanel also started in beauty and fragrance.

Back to the topic of this thread - perhaps?


----------



## TraceySH

880 said:


> I thought chanel released limited financial numbers in 2018, reported in The NYT, and people then thought they were positioning the brand to be purchased. I thought even back then they demonstrated that they were incredibly profitable
> 
> @TraceySH , I thought Guerlain was the first, famously, to use synthetic vanillin


Yes I said above one of the first but not THE first?


----------



## Love Of My Life

papertiger said:


> I am aware of that.
> I am aware of that
> 
> The current owners of Chanel also started in beauty and fragrance.
> 
> Back to the topic of this thread - perhaps?


For many of us that was our entry into the world of Chanel  & then many of us got on the
 handbag wagon perhaps starting with the CF & now leading us to new 19 tote under discussion here


----------



## Diamandis

cerulean blue said:


> I think so, (pls correct me if I'm wrong), Salvatore Ferragamo, Tod's (owns Schiaparelli), Moncler (owns Stone Island), Burberry, Ermenegildo Zegna, Canali, Missoni, Kiton, Brunello Cucinelli. Probably many more I haven't thought of.
> 
> Then, there are those niche, up-and-coming, and/or avant-garde houses like COMME des GARÇONS, Haider Ackermann, Vetements, BODE, The Row etc
> 
> Shoe designers: Christian Louboutin (EXOR owns a minority stake), Edward Green, Manolo Blahnik, George Cleverley, John Lobb (UK, John Lobb Intl is owned by Hermes)


I don't recommend Burberry as they're just as guilty of cutting costs to chase margins as the other big houses.


----------



## Swanky

I’ve tried to give extra leeway, but the thread has veered way off topic several times. Please stick to topic as it’s confusing to follow for lots of folks!


----------



## zaraha

Hi Admins and OP is there a way to split the tread and take some of these informative context and put it into new thread? So we can continue to learn and add new information about these brands.  I think goal is to know what we are paying for (apart from logo/brand), when these brands don’t disclose some of their “secret sauce”.


----------



## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> Hi Admins and OP is there a way to split the tread and take some of these informative context and put it into new thread? So we can continue to learn and add new information about these these brands.  I think goal is to know what we are paying for when brands don’t disclose some of their “secret sauce”.


I think that's a good idea b/c clearly this is the potluck thread....(or has become that, but I've loved it)


----------



## Swanky

zaraha said:


> Hi Admins and OP is there a way to split the tread and take some of these informative context and put it into new thread? So we can continue to learn and add new information about these brands.  I think goal is to know what we are paying for (apart from logo/brand), when these brands don’t disclose some of their “secret sauce”.





TraceySH said:


> I think that's a good idea b/c clearly this is the potluck thread....(or has become that, but I've loved it)



Trying hard to respond respectfully, but no. We have many off topic threads, no one has time to pull them apart… 
Please, like all the other discussions, stick to topic.


----------



## CrazyCool01

Just saw this video on heart bag , and thought of sharing


----------



## TraceySH

CrazyCool01 said:


> Just saw this video on heart bag , and thought of sharing



This is just BAD. I'm not sure I have ever really heard about this one before, chain attachments falling off....I mean not even with minis for years and years? Again ...something shady is happening the last couple of seasons. And that heart bag "everyone wanted" until there are 94 for sale on Fashionphile right now, discounted...(at one point in think there were over 130 on there)...https://www.fashionphile.com/shop?search=chanel+love+heart+bag.


----------



## gail13

I saw this posted online, recent purchase of a classic flap and there is peeling.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> I saw this posted online, recent purchase of a classic flap and there is peeling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5584944


okkkk this would REALLY piss me off. Has this person asked Chanel what they will do about it? What season is it from? Also whatever is underneath the peeling looks like ....I don't know what it looks like. Not leather. Bag "brains" lol.


----------



## ntntgo

TBH, while this thread is extremely enlightening, even when it goes off topic to include history, beauty & fragrance, it seems as though it has zero impact regardless of the facts posted. 
I appreciate the OP, who seems to know a lot as well as several other people who have provided great insight. Folks really don’t have all that much interest in that thing we call “facts”. 
It’s a terrible shame that we aren’t supported in breaking this great information off into another thread in light of the scolding of going off topic. 
Thank you to all who I have learned so much from. This is an amazing group of women or men who have contributed facts and enlightenment. 
Please keep in mind that logos don’t demonstrate status or wealth. 
Best to you all and once again thank you OP and those who have provided so much information that even I didn’t know. You’re a wonderful group and I hope that people start to realize that logos don’t buy class. Kindness, respect and search of knowledge does.


----------



## 880

Given that we can’t sift through the threads to weed out the info,

@TraceySH , Could or should the thread be renamed ?

Something commensurate with the rise and fall of the Roman Empire perhaps; or something like Coco would have been appalled by; or never imagined that …. Lol


----------



## gail13

I think the information in this thread is def worthy of a new name etc. 


TraceySH said:


> okkkk this would REALLY piss me off. Has this person asked Chanel what they will do about it? What season is it from? Also whatever is underneath the peeling looks like ....I don't know what it looks like. Not leather. Bag "brains" lol.


22C!


----------



## TraceySH

880 said:


> Given that we can’t sift through the threads to weed out the info,
> 
> @TraceySH , Could or should the thread be renamed ?
> 
> Something commensurate with the rise and fall of the Roman Empire perhaps; or something like Coco would have been appalled by; or never imagined that …. Lol


Maybe a good idea. Sure. What do you guys want me to edit to?


----------



## 880

TraceySH said:


> Maybe a good idea. Sure. What do you guys want me to edit to?


hope people will chime in with a bunch of suggestions

heres my grandiose one:

From Coco chanel to big brand: the rise and fall of luxury 
or
The 19 Tote: the sad end to an illustrious fashion house 
(Joking) 
lol


----------



## TraceySH

880 said:


> hope people will chime in with a bunch of suggestions
> 
> heres my grandiose one:
> 
> From Coco chanel to big brand: the rise and fall of luxury
> or
> The 19 Tote: the sad end to an illustrious fashion house
> (Joking)
> lol


Hahaha!! The second one lol. And agree w/ the first. Let's make it searchable ...something that brings attention to defects, history, smoke and mirrors, blah blah blah. A global repository for TPF for random everything, but "eyes wide open" random everything.


----------



## papertiger

880 said:


> hope people will chime in with a bunch of suggestions
> 
> heres my grandiose one:
> 
> From Coco chanel to big brand: the rise and fall of luxury
> or
> The 19 Tote: the sad end to an illustrious fashion house
> (Joking)
> lol



Well, we have to nod to Dana Thomas and her 2008 book Deluxe: How Luxury Lost its Lustre (I think someone already mentioned it)

Maybe  Doo-dah, I Shouldn't Coco:the plasticisation of luxury

Edited: Coz we have to get in a Chanel ref


----------



## papertiger

papertiger said:


> Well, we have to nod to Dana Thomas and her 2008 book Deluxe: How Luxury Lost its Lustre (I think someone already mentioned it)
> 
> Maybe  Doo-dah, I Shouldn't Coco:the plasticisation of luxury
> 
> Edited: Coz we have to get in a Chanel ref



Wrong order

I Should Coco: Doo-dah and the Plasificatvion of Luxury


----------



## gail13

Peeling like a bad sunburn? Lol.


----------



## TraceySH

papertiger said:


> Wrong order
> 
> I Should Coco: Doo-dah and the Plasificatvion of Luxury


OMG You're killing me


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> Peeling like a bad sunburn? Lol.


That's exactly what it looks like too. And then I thought, brains. It looks like brains.


----------



## TraceySH

Ok everyone, it's changed. May the thread live forever. Hear, hear!


----------



## papertiger

TraceySH said:


> OMG You're killing me



FFS! My autocorrect is killing _me_! 

It should be: 'I shouldn't Coco: Do-dah and Plastination of Luxury'


----------



## TraceySH

papertiger said:


> FFS! My autocorrect is killing _me_!
> 
> It should be: 'I shouldn't Coco: Do-dah and Plastination of Luxury'


Well mine always changes my s in senile to a p. Which is mortifying depending on the recipient.


----------



## m_ichele

Fantastic title TraceySH! This has been a very educational thread. Thank you to all who contributed such compelling information!


----------



## Guccigal16

Hi There! Thank you for all the inside info and the honest opinions on Chanel. Ive always dreamed and wanted to own a Chanel bag but could never get myself to pay those prices. No matter how much I like the bag, I can't bring myself to pay it. I am a regular person and if I did buy a Chanel bag, it would be a big deal financially. After reading this thread and the thread on the Chanel 22, I'm so grateful to not have fomo anymore, I don't want to buy a Chanel bag anymore, even if I could. So thank you for taking that burden from me lol! It's a disgrace in my opinion, they prey on us marketing wise and financially. I feel bad for the people who spent thousands and are stuck with peeling 22's and 19's.


----------



## EpiFanatic

Update.  Thanks to @TraceySH I mustered up the courage to take my 19 on vacay, seeing that it is made of Teflon (j/k, kinda).  It made it through TSA multiple times, food truck meals, daily touring and shopping excursions and still looks fabulous. Wore it mostly crossbody. No signs of cracking or peeling anywhere. Go forth with your 19s (not tote)!!


----------



## TraceySH

EpiFanatic said:


> Update.  Thanks to @TraceySH I mustered up the courage to take my 19 on vacay, seeing that it is made of Teflon (j/k, kinda).  It made it through TSA multiple times, food truck meals, daily touring and shopping excursions and still looks fabulous. Wore it mostly crossbody. No signs of cracking or peeling anywhere. Go forth with your 19s (not tote)!!


Alas, the serendipitous silver lining of this thread… the 19 will survive with cockroaches and the apocalypse.  Not sure people would all be AS concerned about what the material is if whatever it is wasn’t deteriorating.

Sounds like a great vacation!


----------



## TimelessBelle

Knowing that Chanel owners’ wealth reaches $90 billion thanks to a $5-billion dividend last year while all of us who have contributed to that windfall are getting subpar, cost-cutting quality makes me sick to my stomach. It’s not even a love-hate relationship, it’s more like being in an abusive relationship knowingly but chose to stay on. However we are not helpless victims. Our choices and how we spent our money will speak volume from now on. If we can’t then we should be asking ‘has it gotten to be a form of addiction’? An addiction that is vulgar and self-destructive, considering the anguish, frustrations or anxiety our purchases have brought us.

I have chosen to move on. I have learnt to appreciate other finer things in life that do not have to come with a big price-tag. Thank you Chanel for making me realise that.


----------



## CrazyCool01

delete


----------



## ntntgo

TimelessBelle said:


> Knowing that Chanel owners’ wealth reaches $90 billion thanks to a $5-billion dividend last year while all of us who have contributed to that windfall are getting subpar, cost-cutting quality makes me sick to my stomach. It’s not even a love-hate relationship, it’s more like being in an abusive relationship knowingly but chose to stay on. However we are not helpless victims. Our choices and how we spent our money will speak volume from now on. If we can’t then we should be asking ‘has it gotten to be a form of addiction’? An addiction that is vulgar and self-destructive, considering the anguish, frustrations or anxiety our purchases have brought us.
> 
> I have chosen to move on. I have learnt to appreciate other finer things in life that do not have to come with a big price-tag. Thank you Chanel for making me realise that.


Well said.  All anyone has to do is go back and look at my old posts in the Louboutin thread. It was never, at least for me, about the get, it was about the hunt. 
Shopping, as I’m sure several people in the thread will agree that it is a form of addiction. There’s a reason that there is a medical term called compulsive buying disorder. The meetings are called shopper’s anonymous. Companies like Chanel encourage that addictive behavior. It’s really no different than an addiction to anything that you think makes you feel good when in reality, it’s highly destructive.
I knew as a long time client of Chanel that their quality had progressively gotten worse as their prices rose but, the amount of money the Wertheimers took out of the company this year shows how badly we’ve all been duped. 
Please let’s not forget that Chanel is owned by VCs who’s portfolio is mostly healthcare & biotech. 
Alas, as long as people continue to attempt to buy status or the appearance of wealth when they really have neither, Chanel will continue to raise prices and quality will continue to decline. If anyone thinks that they have even a passing thought toward one word said about the brand on here, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Any statement saying that TPF or any other platform has received any kind of warning letter or blah blah blah about threads like this, it’s just not true. 
Carry on


----------



## TraceySH

TimelessBelle said:


> Knowing that Chanel owners’ wealth reaches $90 billion thanks to a $5-billion dividend last year while all of us who have contributed to that windfall are getting subpar, cost-cutting quality makes me sick to my stomach. It’s not even a love-hate relationship, it’s more like being in an abusive relationship knowingly but chose to stay on. However we are not helpless victims. Our choices and how we spent our money will speak volume from now on. If we can’t then we should be asking ‘has it gotten to be a form of addiction’? An addiction that is vulgar and self-destructive, considering the anguish, frustrations or anxiety our purchases have brought us.
> 
> I have chosen to move on. I have learnt to appreciate other finer things in life that do not have to come with a big price-tag. Thank you Chanel for making me realise that.


So, the interesting part about what you stated is that indeed companies hire black belt psychologists and neurologists to trick the brain into feeling a sense of reward at the SAME TIME as damaging their pocketbook. The goal is to hit that reward center of the brain (this is a chemical release) where the brain doesn't realize the action subsequently is a harmful one, not a rewarding one. Casinos are the greatest at this. I had a private practice for years in a casino town, and I learned so much from my patients who WERE the neurologists behind all those schematics. 

Chanel is genius in how it amps up the frenzy prior to each season's release, letting everyone take their best guesses at what colors will ACTUALLY look like, what dimensions or prices will be, and if quality of one this season might be better than last season. Women (mostly) are subjugated (yet again) into begging and desperation, wondering if their obsessiveness will turn into that reward of snagging an item unseen, placing them ahead of their peers. They will be...."special". (Until the next thing comes along and Fashionphile is rife with the previous season's "it" item). I have stated in another post somewhere around here that what they are doing is the opposite of empowering women who have experience oppression from the beginning of time. That patriarchy, so to speak, is alive and well in retail. 

The retail relationship isn't symbiotic any longer. Way back when, a good was an exchange, money for something useful, where both parties "profited" in some way, and felt good about the transaction. Sometimes I think things have become so imbalanced that consumers dig their heels in (double down) on their behaviors just to prove they are still in "control".


----------



## ntntgo

TraceySH said:


> So, the interesting part about what you stated is that indeed companies hire black belt psychologists and neurologists to trick the brain into feeling a sense of reward at the SAME TIME as damaging their pocketbook. The goal is to hit that reward center of the brain (this is a chemical release) where the brain doesn't realize the action subsequently is a harmful one, not a rewarding one. Casinos are the greatest at this. I had a private practice for years in a casino town, and I learned so much from my patients who WERE the neurologists behind all those schematics.
> 
> Chanel is genius in how it amps up the frenzy prior to each season's release, letting everyone take their best guesses at what colors will ACTUALLY look like, what dimensions or prices will be, and if quality of one this season might be better than last season. Women (mostly) are subjugated (yet again) into begging and desperation, wondering if their obsessiveness will turn into that reward of snagging an item unseen, placing them ahead of their peers. They will be...."special". (Until the next thing comes along and Fashionphile is rife with the previous season's "it" item). I have stated in another post somewhere around here that what they are doing is the opposite of empowering women who have experience oppression from the beginning of time. That patriarchy, so to speak, is alive and well in retail.
> 
> The retail relationship isn't symbiotic any longer. Way back when, a good was an exchange, money for something useful, where both parties "profited" in some way, and felt good about the transaction. Sometimes I think things have become so imbalanced that consumers dig their heels in (double down) on their behaviors just to prove they are still in "control".


Wow! Just WOW! Now knowing that you are in the mental health field and have a medical education, that explains so much. 
That post has even me reevaluating how I’ve been further duped into my buying habits. Not just fashion. 
Are you accepting new patients? I think you might have an overrun of asks here.  Kidding but not really.


----------



## TraceySH

ntntgo said:


> Wow! Just WOW! Now knowing that you are in the mental health field and have a medical education, that explains so much.
> That post has even me reevaluating how I’ve been further duped into my buying habits. Not just fashion.
> Are you accepting new patients? I think you might have an overrun of asks here.  Kidding but not really.


I mean, it's not like I am immune to the same. I've absolutely been caught up in this cycle and have had to use my own training to back myself out of it!


----------



## Guccigal16

best thread ever


----------



## waterlily112

Not sure if anyone follow her Chanel 22 issues but Chanel inspected her bag and said there's nothing they can do about the abnormal wears & tears, and suggested her to embrace the flaws  They should've just offer her a refund but nope...

Also looks like she's been following this thread too.


----------



## bergafer3

I bought a duma about 2 weeks back and it smelled like chemicals not leather. I returned it because I like the smell of leather, this happened to me with an LV black Montsouris‘s backpack it smelled of chemicals not leather at all I’m not keeping anything that smells like chemicals. I’m very scent Adverse. My other items from Chanel smell of leather


----------



## gail13

I have been told by one of my SA's that Chanel believes the higher the price, the more we want an item. It has zero to do with quality.

Some took issue with my comments about Chanel or others like them being considered "fast fashion". However, at the rate of these collections releasing, one barely gets the items before the value falls and its onto the next. With some 8 or 9 collections inc Coco Neiege etc, that's a new bag or RTW about every 1.5 months.  As Ntntgo says, its about the hunt.  We are not used to a Chanel everyday bag, holding up to wear and tear. Isn't that what the 22 and the 19 style bags are supposed to be?

It appears the 19 flap bags are quite sturdy, but what is this kryptonite material?

Is it possible Chanel does not want to provide an everyday bag that will hold up? Wear and tear is the cornerstone of consumerism. If we are all buying bags that are not able to sustain everyday wear, that explains how wear and tear has caused the damage.  Most of the people on this forum treat their lambskin and metallic bags very delicately. Thats a collectible that belongs in a museum. And many of us including myself have these. I've got bags that have rarely if ever seen the light of day.

I guess we ask ourselves, do we want a bag we want to use or one we look at in the closet?


----------



## TraceySH

waterlily112 said:


> Not sure if anyone follow her Chanel 22 issues but Chanel inspected her bag and said there's nothing they can do about the abnormal wears & tears, and suggested her to embrace the flaws  They should've just offer her a refund but nope...
> 
> Also looks like she's been following this thread too.



Well not that Chanel doesn’t have a tremendous history of issues and a well documented history of abysmal customer service, but it does appears more pervasive than ever right now. I am to the point that I will not buy because I don’t trust either the product OR the company should something go wrong post purchase.


----------



## ntntgo

gail13 said:


> I have been told by one of my SA's that Chanel believes the higher the price, the more we want an item. It has zero to do with quality.
> 
> Some took issue with my comments about Chanel or others like them being considered "fast fashion". However, at the rate of these collections releasing, one barely gets the items before the value falls and its onto the next. With some 8 or 9 collections inc Coco Neiege etc, that's a new bag or RTW about every 1.5 months.  As Ntntgo says, its about the hunt.  We are not used to a Chanel everyday bag, holding up to wear and tear. Isn't that what the 22 and the 19 style bags are supposed to be?
> 
> It appears the 19 flap bags are quite sturdy, but what is this kryptonite material?
> 
> Is it possible Chanel does not want to provide an everyday bag that will hold up? Wear and tear is the cornerstone of consumerism. If we are all buying bags that are not able to sustain everyday wear, that explains how wear and tear has caused the damage.  Most of the people on this forum treat their lambskin and metallic bags very delicately. Thats a collectible that belongs in a museum. And many of us including myself have these. I've got bags that have rarely if ever seen the light of day.
> 
> I guess we ask ourselves, do we want a bag we want to use or one we look at in the closet?



I’m going to respectfully disagree about the lambskin. But I’m talking the lambskin before they started slapping whatever garbage they’re slapping on top now. 
I use my lambskin all the time. If I scratch it, it just takes a little Meltonian 001 and a soft cloth & boom, perfect. 
New caviar isn’t even sustainable to use. Especially the micro-caviar. You can pull the nub off with your fingernail and whaaaat???? There’s some white, I don’t even know what, underneath. 
It truly pains me to see what’s happened to Chanel (other brands too). I have such a huge collection that I’ll never buy another Chanel again. Yes, it pains me but I’m actually very proud to be a part of this thread as there are some very educated women posting here. 
Oh and I think the “fast fashion” debate comes from Chanel lacking the first rule of FF is making runway designs affordable to people. I think the affordable part is what some people are getting stuck on. Other than that, hell yes it’s fast fashion because number 2 is “made cheaply”.


----------



## gail13

The other thing that makes people really want something is when they can't get it. Well, Chanel has created that perfect storm.

Resellers are not the only reason quota's were cut back but it sure sounds good.  interestingly enough, Hermes thrives on the reseller philosophy.

Some believe any press is good press because they are talking about you. Well, here we are.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> The other thing that makes people really want something is when they can't get it. Well, Chanel has created that perfect storm.
> 
> Resellers are not the only reason quota's were cut back but it sure sounds good.  interestingly enough, Hermes thrives on the reseller philosophy.
> 
> Some believe any press is good press because they are talking about you. Well, here we are.


And the funny thing is you CAN get it. Any of it. Multitudes of it. A big percentage even discounted! You just have to wait until everyone moves on the “the next thing” and then the old thing floods the marketplace.


----------



## zaraha

TraceySH said:


> I mean, it's not like I am immune to the same. I've absolutely been caught up in this cycle and have had to use my own training to back myself out of it!


@TraceySH  if chanel can trick someone like you into this cycle imagine how easy for them to trick the rest of us.


----------



## TraceySH

zaraha said:


> @TraceySH  if chanel can trick someone like you into this cycle imagine how easy for them to trick the rest of us.


Well, I mean I think we also allow it too. There's a part of us that *KNOWS* all of it, but we just override it (denial after all, is a purposeful and useful place to be). There are plenty of days or even whole periods in my life where I just choose to side step logic, or even reality, because I specifically don't feel like dealing with it. I DO think that COVID encouraged more of this, people just out there doing things to relieve themselves of the horrific place we were all in. You only wake up when you want to, kind of. And we can see that here on this thread too. Some will, some won't, and that's ok! It's not like logic is the foundation for any decision when purchasing luxury to begin with. They are already taking advantage of consumer's emotions just existing, and when all of the aforementioned in this thread is taking place, logic REALLY has no place in consumer behavior! 

To (obviously) a much lesser extent, I don't think people would get on a plane with the same proportion of accidents happening...like, oh, well there's a 93% chance we won't crash. And a 55% chance the plane will get us there without any injuries. And a 30% chance of, IF the flight crashes or causes injury, if we can prove it's their fault, they will pay our medical bills. But if it's just deemed normal human wear and tear error, we might be out several hundred thousand in medical bills. Or we might die, but, you know. Stats are more in our favor than not, so, this is an AWESOME AIRLINE.


----------



## waterlily112

bergafer3 said:


> I bought a duma about 2 weeks back and it smelled like chemicals not leather. I returned it because I like the smell of leather, this happened to me with an LV black Montsouris‘s backpack it smelled of chemicals not leather at all I’m not keeping anything that smells like chemicals. I’m very scent Adverse. My other items from Chanel smell of leather


I had my SA put a duma backpack on hold for me and decided against to purchase it because of the leather too, it smelled and felt funny. I just had the strong gut feeling that it'll give me headache in the near future. My mom has a vintage version and hers is soo squishy with the nice leather smell despite it being nearly 30 year old!


----------



## 880

ktnt98 said:


> That would explain the introduction of cosmetics, the proliferation of pop-ups with lower-priced merchandise, and the choice of more hip locations for new boutiques


Agree with everything you have said. 


Guccigal16 said:


> am a regular person and if I did buy a Chanel bag, it would be a big deal


you are in good company here


EpiFanatic said:


> Thanks to @TraceySH I mustered up the courage to take my 19 on vacay, seeing that it is made of Teflon (j/k, kinda). It made it through TSA multiple times, food truck meals, daily touring and shopping excursions and still looks fabulous. Wore it mostly crossbody. No signs of cracking or peeling anywhere. Go forth with your 19s (not tote)!


I do the same with my so black mini chevron reissue, but I’m thinking of buying @TraceySH ’s 19 model. 


ntntgo said:


> If anyone thinks that they have even a passing thought toward one word said about the brand on here, I hate to be the bearer of bad news.


Yep; any discussion is good. 


ntntgo said:


> I use my lambskin all the time. If I scratch it, it just takes a little Meltonian 001 and a soft cloth & boom, perfect.
> New caviar isn’t even sustainable to use.


+100 re lambskin bags and clothes. I do think when VCs get involved, profit, not quality becomes the priority


----------



## bergafer3

waterlily112 said:


> I had my SA put a duma backpack on hold for me and decided against to purchase it because of the leather too, it smelled and felt funny. I just had the strong gut feeling that it'll give me headache in the near future. My mom has a vintage version and hers is soo squishy with the nice leather smell despite it being nearly 30 year old!



Yes! It felt different than other lambskin Chanel’s I’ve had in the past. I need my leather to smell like leather, if a 30 old bag still has leather smell a brand new one should.


----------



## ntntgo

gail13 said:


> The other thing that makes people really want something is when they can't get it. Well, Chanel has created that perfect storm.
> 
> Resellers are not the only reason quota's were cut back but it sure sounds good.  interestingly enough, Hermes thrives on the reseller philosophy.
> 
> Some believe any press is good press because they are talking about you. Well, here we are.



That last line is 100%. “Here we are”

In order for them to say that this thread is defamatory, they’d have to prove it and I guarantee you that going down that road of evidentiary support is not one they want to go down. That would require expert opinions, or anecdotal evidence & I would love that. 

Good luck to them in proving the validity of their claim of defamation. I’d love them to have an expert take the bag apart. I know of one who has already had to do it for Chanel in order to actually sell the bag & it was not good news.


----------



## TraceySH

ntntgo said:


> That last line is 100%. “Here we are”
> 
> In order for them to say that this thread is defamatory, they’d have to prove it and I guarantee you that going down that road of evidentiary support is not one they want to go down. That would require expert opinions, or anecdotal evidence & I would love that.
> 
> Good luck to them in proving the validity of their claim of defamation. I’d love them to have an expert take the bag apart. I know of one who has already had to do it for Chanel in order to actually sell the bag & it was not good news.


Oh I want to hear more about that story!!! And you’re right. In order to prove something, you’d have to disprove something else. Not something they’d want to to.


----------



## Chanello_ShopGirl

bagsaremyjam said:


> I’m absolutely not mistaken.


Actually, you are. Sorry! The double CC logo was not introduced until the 1980s. It was introduced by Karl Lagerfeld. The 2.55 bag was created in February 1955, and had a Mademoiselle turn lock, and no leather woven chains. I just read two books about the history of Chanel (which were official/authorized). Further, the Re-issue only refers to bags that were recreated in February 2005. All other bags of this style are just the 2.55 (but people still call them the Re-issue).


----------



## gail13

Throw the new hefty European price increase into the mix, as we discuss materials and processes that are not what we thought they were. 

*Classic flap small 7750€ – after increase 8450€
Classic flap medium 8250€ – after increase 8990€
Classic flap jumbo 8900€ – after increase 9700€*
Prices are expected to increase 5% on all other leather categories and RTW, shoes etc.


----------



## rainbowneko

gail13 said:


> Throw the new hefty European price increase into the mix, as we discuss materials and processes that are not what we thought they were.
> 
> *Classic flap small 7750€ – after increase 8450€
> Classic flap medium 8250€ – after increase 8990€
> Classic flap jumbo 8900€ – after increase 9700€*
> Prices are expected to increase 5% on all other leather categories and RTW, shoes etc.


Today Jap also increased its prices as well

sources: momoland_tokyo, xiaohongshu


----------



## gail13

rainbowneko said:


> Today Jap also increased its prices as well
> 
> source: momoland_toko


Not surprising.  I know with each price increase they think they will capture more buyers, trying to find exclusivity.


----------



## Chanello_ShopGirl

bagsaremyjam said:


> You’re forgetting I also referred to usage in those statements. To someone with discerning attention to detail and extensive bag experience I believe that comparison can me made, yes. And even to those that don’t, I still believe it. But there are a lot to people who haven’t been around luxury and can appreciate it fully until they’ve had experience with it.
> 
> What you’re not understanding about what I’m saying is there are people who blindly buy who don’t appreciate the way things are made, so they’ll just go in and buy a bag because of the name. They may never have owned a luxury bag at this point. They’ll think it’s nice but know nothing about what they purchased or what the material means in relation to wear, etc. They just purchase without even remotely educating themselves.
> 
> I have friends who like luxury but don’t purchase the way I do. They purchase because they like it and what the brand means to them. But do they all examine the design and quality like I do? Not at all. There are very few of my friends who purchase luxury who do. They just don’t have passion for or value design, bags, luxury goods and materials the way I do, which is how I found myself on TPF as a teenager. A lot of people really can’t tell you in detail the difference between a regular contemporary bag and a designer because they’re not passionate about it or aren’t detail oriented in regards to that kind of stuff.


I totally get what you’re saying, and I agree. I know people who want to own luxury items just because of the brand/name, but actually know nothing of the history of the brand; which is okay, I suppose. But, what’s worse, is they know nothing of the material or truly anything about the quality of the item - again, they just go by the name. I, on the other hand, like to know as much as possible about what I’m buying. It’s so important to be as informed as possible, especially when spending thousands of dollars on things. 

I have enjoyed this thread - and have enjoyed reading your opinions!


----------



## Chanello_ShopGirl

Tina1010 said:


> Of course.. the last time I did this amount of research was when I bought a Canon DSLR to make sure I understood the specs, never doubted it's quality.  With a classic bag, I though all I had to worry about was how it looked on me, never thought that the quality expectations  from this brand would be an issue.



It’s definitely not acceptable! I hope you find one that you love! You should absolutely be happy with what you’re purchasing, especially at these prices! I research everything that I purchase. It doesn’t matter the price or the brand. And I’ve learned the difference between a “me” problem (aka I’m being too picky, and no one else would notice any issues) vs. an actual problem/flaw/defect. I can always get over the “me” problems with an item; but you never get over the issues that are due to defects or manufacturing errors. If I’m going to buy a Chanel bag (or anything really), I would like to be the one to scuff the inside of the bag with my items (it gives the bag a story and history)…I’d rather not buy a brand new bag with the scuff marks already inside. 

Good luck with your search!


----------



## ntntgo

gail13 said:


> Throw the new hefty European price increase into the mix, as we discuss materials and processes that are not what we thought they were.
> 
> *Classic flap small 7750€ – after increase 8450€
> Classic flap medium 8250€ – after increase 8990€
> Classic flap jumbo 8900€ – after increase 9700€*
> Prices are expected to increase 5% on all other leather categories and RTW, shoes etc.


They use price harmonization as the excuse.  That’s their go-to explanation for every price increase, globally. Either they don’t understand the purpose of moving from value-based pricing to harmonized pricing or they think we don’t. 
All of the luxury brands who have moved to price harmonization in the last 11 years have done it for two reasons.  Either they are stabilizing their pricing to go e-comm or to sell. 

Anyone willing to pick up a book and educate themselves or who has been watching the Chanel trends over the last 5 years, can easily see that it’s likely the latter. However, Hermes dipping their toe into the e-comm arena with bags, some of which are quota bags, makes me think we might see Chanel start doing the same. Especially with the ”VIP boutiques” being announced. Notice it’s in quotes. They already exist within the current boutiques.

Regarding the EU price increase, it has no effect on residents of the EU countries as they don’t buy Chanel anyway, only expats. I noticed that the prices weren’t raised in Switzerland or Norway or Denmark or pick any country that’s part of the EU but doesn’t use the Euro. All of those countries’ currency are at the same rate against the USD. I‘ve also heard nothing about a price increase in the UK.  That’s will give us way more insight to what their real endgame is. If any of our UK members here know differently, please chime in.


----------



## waixoxo

ntntgo said:


> They use price harmonization as the excuse.  That’s their go-to explanation for every price increase, globally. Either they don’t understand the purpose of moving from value-based pricing to harmonized pricing or they think we don’t.
> All of the luxury brands who have moved to price harmonization in the last 11 years have done it for two reasons.  Either they are stabilizing their pricing to go e-comm or to sell.
> 
> Anyone willing to pick up a book and educate themselves or who has been watching the Chanel trends over the last 5 years, can easily see that it’s likely the latter. However, Hermes dipping their toe into the e-comm arena with bags, some of which are quota bags, makes me think we might see Chanel start doing the same. Especially with the ”VIP boutiques” being announced. Notice it’s in quotes. They already exist within the current boutiques.
> 
> Regarding the EU price increase, it has no effect on residents of the EU countries as they don’t buy Chanel anyway, only expats. I noticed that the prices weren’t raised in Switzerland or Norway or Denmark or pick any country that’s part of the EU but doesn’t use the Euro. All of those countries’ currency are at the same rate against the USD. I‘ve also heard nothing about a price increase in the UK.  That’s will give us way more insight to what their real endgame is. If any of our UK members here know differently, please chime in.


The price increase in UK happened last night at the same time as Euro countries. I didn't hear anything of it either but the website has changed all the bag prices


----------



## ntntgo

waixoxo said:


> The price increase in UK happened last night at the same time as Euro countries. I didn't hear anything of it either but the website has changed all the bag prices


Thank you. They are stealthy aren’t they? I think I speak for everyone here in asking those of you in countries that don’t use the Euro in EU countries to chime in as well. 
The price increase in the UK is quite telling as to where the Wertheimers are headed.


----------



## Tina1010

Chanello_ShopGirl said:


> It’s definitely not acceptable! I hope you find one that you love! You should absolutely be happy with what you’re purchasing, especially at these prices! I research everything that I purchase. It doesn’t matter the price or the brand. And I’ve learned the difference between a “me” problem (aka I’m being too picky, and no one else would notice any issues) vs. an actual problem/flaw/defect. I can always get over the “me” problems with an item; but you never get over the issues that are due to defects or manufacturing errors. If I’m going to buy a Chanel bag (or anything really), I would like to be the one to scuff the inside of the bag with my items (it gives the bag a story and history)…I’d rather not buy a brand new bag with the scuff marks already inside.
> 
> Good luck with your search!


Thank you so much! Yes I finally found the one over the weekend.  Lucky #7!  Ha! It's almost perfect, no defects as far as my eyes can tell! It was brand new fresh in the box too which makes me even happier!!


----------



## papertiger

Chanello_ShopGirl said:


> Actually, you are. Sorry! The double CC logo was not introduced until the 1980s. It was introduced by Karl Lagerfeld. The 2.55 bag was created in February 1955, and had a Mademoiselle turn lock, and no leather woven chains. I just read two books about the history of Chanel (which were official/authorized). Further, the Re-issue only refers to bags that were recreated in February 2005. All other bags of this style are just the 2.55 (but people still call them the Re-issue).



I think we discovered (thread on this forum) there was a bag in the 1970s that had the CC catch already (from a vintage photo), it was just launched big-time in 1983. Prob KL found the model in the archives. Looking at the timeline it sound the most likely, project concept, development and realisation of accessories is quite a long process and KL only joined 1982.


----------



## DamierEbene

In Denmark the prices were increased as well.
Europeans actually do buy Chanel. We don’t like the price hikes either.


----------



## papertiger

ntntgo said:


> They use price harmonization as the excuse.  That’s their go-to explanation for every price increase, globally. Either they don’t understand the purpose of moving from value-based pricing to harmonized pricing or they think we don’t.
> All of the luxury brands who have moved to price harmonization in the last 11 years have done it for two reasons.  Either they are stabilizing their pricing to go e-comm or to sell.
> 
> Anyone willing to pick up a book and educate themselves or who has been watching the Chanel trends over the last 5 years, can easily see that it’s likely the latter. However, Hermes dipping their toe into the e-comm arena with bags, some of which are quota bags, makes me think we might see Chanel start doing the same. Especially with the ”VIP boutiques” being announced. Notice it’s in quotes. They already exist within the current boutiques.
> 
> Regarding the EU price increase, it has no effect on residents of the EU countries as they don’t buy Chanel anyway, only expats. I noticed that the prices weren’t raised in Switzerland or Norway or Denmark or pick any country that’s part of the EU but doesn’t use the Euro. All of those countries’ currency are at the same rate against the USD. I‘ve also heard nothing about a price increase in the UK.  That’s will give us way more insight to what their real endgame is. If any of our UK members here know differently, please chime in.



Just a note, Switzerland or Norway are not part of the EU. The Eurozone (countries that use the Euro are different). Denmark is in the EU but didn't switch to the Euro. 

It's true that fluctuations in currency will affect prices. In addition, Chanel were one of the first lux companies that equalised prices a few years ago so that prices in many countries in Asia and and other territories that were prohibitively high, are now effectively subsidised by prices in Europe (and perhaps elsewhere). 

Here is a PB article by Amanda Mull from 2015 (last updated last year): https://www.purseblog.com/news/chan...ellers-and-prepare-for-eventual-online-sales/


----------



## Shelby33

bagsaremyjam said:


> Unless you’re a leather expert who works with, or has worked with leather, it’s silly to assume to know what you’re talking about. I’m not saying Chanel doesn’t have quality issues or can have quality issues, but to start making statements or assuming the bags are made of fake leather is ridiculous imo.
> 
> I watched a YouTube video of someone complaining about their 22 bag’s leather coming apart, and there was one comment stating the leather was bonded and a zillion pieces were put together, another stating the leather is spray painted, etc. Then someone commented who works with leathers every day confirm the bag is indeed leather, but the leather has been mixed with a type of color, which appears to be causing this (ie, the metallic in the bag, or something mixed in the color). This was my thought exactly - the bags with metallic or bright colors did not mix well, something happened. The metallic leathers are extremely sensitive to water, to anything really, and this is when they’re in a structured shape like a mini, let alone on a hobo bag. It seems Chanel tried something out with these new unstructured bags that has clearly backfired.
> 
> I’ve personally noticed improved quality on all the bags I’ve purchased the past couple years. I’ve also noticed it on the bags I’ve handled in store.
> 
> And to those referring to a plasticky feel, that’s the caviar that they’re creating. And the “plasticky” feel someone mentioned on a Chanel 19 is the lamb coating to make it more durable. Side note, my 19 bag is made from goatskin and I can promise you it’s full leather. And that all my bags are.
> 
> The caviar reserved for classics is now not put on seasonal bags. Back in the day seasonal caviar used to resemble more of the classic caviar grains, now they have made a zillion different caviar grains for seasonal bags to differentiate from the classics. Most caviar is almost always going to have some sort of plastic feel because you can see the caviar is glazed and coated to create hardened pebbles for durability. It’s why those bags last so long. Treated leather will always last longer.
> 
> Lamb is so delicate it’s absurd. Clearly some more than others, but you can see the differences of lamb depending how much treatment/coating is put on it. I don’t know what kind of lamb they used for vintage bags, but they were certainly more durable. But they also feel nothing like Chanel lamb bags now. Vintage lamb bags are nothing close to being super buttery and luxe, which they are now. But you pay a price for that buttery, luxe lamb. It doesn’t wear well. At all.
> 
> So many Chanel lamb purses have a raw like coating, meaning they appear to have very little alterations to the leather, which means they have very little durability. This gives a more luxe feel and look, but it’s also the reason for the bags being extremely delicate. This is why I will never buy lamb bags for daily use unless I know it’s coated. And even then, it’s still the most sensitive leather.
> 
> Regarding the original OP’s photo. It’s looks like whatever you wore rubbed against the lamb leather, which appears to be extremely delicate. BUT. It’s lamb. If you wear anything rough with a lamb bag or don’t baby it, that will happen to most bags. Even in one hour.
> 
> Chanel lamb is notorious for being extremely delicate. I don’t know why Chanel would make a tote in untreated lamb. And to be honest, I feel like Chanel needs to (generally speaking) make their lamb more durable. But then you’ll have complaints about that.
> 
> And peoples ideas of “wear” are also so relative. I’ve seen so many people say their bag is in perfect condition after years of wear and I’m like, are you seeing what I’m seeing??? Because in my mind it couldn’t be farther from the truth. I bring up wear because it’s hard to trust when people say their lamb bags are much more durable than people say.
> 
> Have you owned lamb bags form Celine, LV, or other brands? No matter how much you baby the bag, it’s inevitable the leather will get marks, indentations, scratches.
> 
> Everyone has their own opinions on leather, but it seems people are so divided with Chanel. There are people who want the feeling and look of lamb but they complain when their bag wears so easily. They want durability but complain of the plastic feel of caviar or any coated bags, but that feeling is what keeps those bags looking amazing for so long.
> 
> Chanel caviar, especially in the classic bags, is the most durable leather next to Hermes epsom. Have you ever bought a bag from another designer and notice the calfskin looks and feels great, but over time (no matter how careful you are) the leather will start to wear and soften dramatically. It just will not stand the test of time. But caviar leather often will.
> 
> I’m not saying Chanel doesn’t have quality issues, but oftentimes I feel like people buy bags in certain leathers and have unrealistic expectations. I’m on the extreme with OCD so this is why I will always choose caviar, goat or calfskin first, and will almost never buy lamb.


But shouldn't the leather be dyed through? It should not peel off to show a totally different color.


----------



## ntntgo

DamierEbene said:


> In Denmark the prices were increased as well.
> Europeans actually do buy Chanel. We don’t like the price hikes either.


Thanks for the info. And I should have said the Parisians. My apologies.


----------



## Shelby33

bagsaremyjam said:


> I said almost all their lambskin is delicate, with the exception of the 19. I don’t recall if I disclosed that, but I believe I did. I know that’s the only Chanel lamb that isn’t. I said almost all lambskin is extremely delicate, that’s a fact.
> 
> I’m not saying Chanel doesn’t have issues, they absolutely do!!! But to make a blanket statement that their bags are all made from bonded leather, etc, I believe is false. There’s a difference here. I have purchased SO many Chanel bags. And a lot of people have owned Chanel for a long time with no issues on their bags.
> 
> I’m not going to keep going back and forth with you. Stop buying Chanel then. You’re complaining about your one lamb bag being treated so much that you’re questioning the material. To me the original bag you posted doesn’t look anything like the 22 bag issues, it looks like the rubbing of your clothes ripped the lamb off.
> 
> I only came on here originally to say something about all the fake leather statements. I never said you were wrong. But I’ve literally never had your experience with chemical smelling products either.
> 
> I don’t think you want to see the other side to your argument. Just stop buying the bags and be done with it.


Lamb does not "rub off" from one's clothes to reveal a different material underneath. That lamb looks thinner than a piece of paper!


----------



## ntntgo

papertiger said:


> Just a note, Switzerland or Norway are not part of the EU. The Eurozone (countries that use the Euro are different). Denmark is in the EU but didn't switch to the Euro.
> 
> It's true that fluctuations in currency will affect prices. In addition, Chanel were one of the first lux companies that equalised prices a few years ago so that prices in many countries in Asia and and other territories that were prohibitively high, are now effectively subsidised by prices in Europe (and perhaps elsewhere).
> 
> Here is a PB article by Amanda Mull from 2015 (last updated last year): https://www.purseblog.com/news/chan...ellers-and-prepare-for-eventual-online-sales/



You are correct. I should have said European countries. TBH, I didn’t even know that so many European countries didn’t use the Euro until I started working in Europe. 

In travel, we always just exchanged money through our global banker so,  I never paid much attention to the currency in non EU countries. 

I’m going to read that article. I’ve been saying for years that Chanel Ltd was either going toward selective e-comm or sell. 

As I have the big 3 companies that have acquired the fashion houses as my clients, I’ve been involved in meetings regarding where the future of Chanel appears to be going. The Wertheimers use the high profits from Chanel Ltd to invest/purchase/move money into a highly focused portfolio of health, sustainability & biotech. At some point, they’re going to ditch Chanel completely unless they can get rid of most b & m boutiques to move toward e-comm. 

Thank you for correcting me in my description of EU vs European countries.

Edited for grammar & clearer explanation


----------



## DamierEbene

@ntntgo no offense taken 

I am curious about Chanel finally taking the e-comm route. Even if it would just be a small selection… 
…how/ in what time frame could that become reality? And how would that affect the quality and further price increases? 

Thanks for any insight !


----------



## ntntgo

papertiger said:


> I think we discovered (thread on this forum) there was a bag in the 1970s that had the CC catch already (from a vintage photo), it was just launched big-time in 1983. Prob KL found the model in the archives. Looking at the timeline it sound the most likely, project concept, development and realisation of accessories is quite a long process and KL only joined 1982.


There was a few prototype CFs with the CC turnlock made as gifts for a select few highly photographed women in the mid-1970s but it wasn’t available as anything other than a gift until 1983. 

I’d be very very surprised if anyone on this forum owns an authentic one of the 1970s CC turnlock bags.


----------



## ntntgo

DamierEbene said:


> @ntntgo no offense taken
> 
> I am curious about Chanel finally taking the e-comm route. Even if it would just be a small selection…
> …how/ in what time frame could that become reality? And how would that affect the quality and further price increases?
> 
> Thanks for any insight !



I’m not sure of a date but Hermes started it last year. Some of us received access codes but now anyone can go on the Hermes site and buy them. It’s like concert tickets though. You never know when they’re putting the bags up and the go fast. 

I suspect that Chanel will copy the Hermes model.


----------



## papertiger

ntntgo said:


> There was a few prototype CFs with the CC turnlock made as gifts for a select few highly photographed women in the mid-1970s but it wasn’t available as anything other than a gift until 1983.
> 
> I’d be very very surprised if anyone on this forum owns an authentic one of the 1970s CC turnlock bags.



Thanks you for the info!

No, we found a picture. 

As I said earlier, I have an inherited early-'70s bag, like a Mademoiselle but with _woven_ chain straps. Archives of these Houses are constantly used as inspiration. The finesse and workmanship on that bag is beyond question superior not only to bags now but bags my mother bought in the '90s and mine from the '00s.


----------



## papertiger

ntntgo said:


> There was a few prototype CFs with the CC turnlock made as gifts for a select few highly photographed women in the mid-1970s but it wasn’t available as anything other than a gift until 1983.
> 
> I’d be very very surprised if anyone on this forum owns an authentic one of the 1970s CC turnlock bags.



Found the thread: https://forum.purseblog.com/threads/karl-lagerfeld-didnt-introduce-the-cc-turn-lock.1050796/


----------



## JamaisAssez

ntntgo said:


> I’ve been saying for years that Chanel Ltd was either going toward selective e-comm or sell.





DamierEbene said:


> I am curious about Chanel finally taking the e-comm route.



Selective e-commerce, yes - for fragrances, make up, etc. Not for ready-to-wear or bags.

Bruno Pavlovsky stubbornly explains in this video why they won't expand e-commerce, at the 12:20 mark.

Just like Hermès, Chanel understands and knows scarcity marketing. If they do go fully e-comm, it will be to their detriment.

Incidentally, despite expanding their e-comm offering, Hermès sales are not near Chanels, whose figures came close to LVMH last year.

*Let's be honest here: the allure of CHANEL is keeping its access very INaccessible. Scarcity marketing cultivates desire. It's a proven psychological phenomenon and that's why Hermès' game works. People want it more when they cannot get it easily. Exclusivity sells.*


----------



## bagsaremyjam

Shelby33 said:


> Lamb does not "rub off" from one's clothes to reveal a different material underneath. That lamb looks thinner than a piece of paper!



Yes I realized that later in the thread, which I admitted.


----------



## DamierEbene

JamaisAssez said:


> Selective e-commerce, yes - for fragrances, make up, etc. Not for ready-to-wear or bags.
> 
> Bruno Pavlovsky stubbornly explains in this video why they won't expand e-commerce, at the 12:20 mark.
> 
> Just like Hermès, Chanel understands and knows scarcity marketing. If they do go fully e-comm, it will be to their detriment.
> 
> Incidentally, despite expanding their e-comm offering, Hermès sales are not near Chanels, whose figures came close to LVMH last year.
> 
> *Let's be honest here: the allure of CHANEL is keeping its access very INaccessible. Scarcity marketing cultivates desire. It's a proven psychological phenomenon and that's why Hermès' game works. People want it more when they cannot get it easily. Exclusivity sells.*


I watched the video. Thank you!

Insightful…. and so calculating as he states that Chanel wants customers to have the experience, feel, touch everything etc…
He also says that you walk into Chanel knowing what you want, leaving with something else. 
He calls it a dream and a surprise when you go into boutiques, haha…sure ..
I panic bought in the past out of fomo and as you say: Chanel’s scarcity marketing. I am totally guilty of falling for this. Completely… it’s no surprise/ dream. It’s buy now or never.  

BUT
absolutely correct: if Chanel raised production by 300% or more and everyone could buy anything online and in store, there were sales every six months including bags that didn’t sell… well we all know we wouldn’t buy Chanel like we did/do/will do.


----------



## Shelby33

bagsaremyjam said:


> Yes I realized that later in the thread, which I admitted.


Yeah sorry replied before I read all of it. 
Great thread though.


----------



## QuelleFromage

DamierEbene said:


> In Denmark the prices were increased as well.
> Europeans actually do buy Chanel. We don’t like the price hikes either.





ntntgo said:


> Thanks for the info. And I should have said the Parisians. My apologies.


I live in Paris, and the classic Chanel flap in all sizes is extremely popular among Parisians. I see it and the 2.55 more than I see Hermès bags.

This actually shifted me toward buying one (to date I've only owned a couple 2.55s and a WOC), but this thread has pretty much talked me out of that!


----------



## Mad_la_mans

ntntgo said:


> They use price harmonization as the excuse.  That’s their go-to explanation for every price increase, globally. Either they don’t understand the purpose of moving from value-based pricing to harmonized pricing or they think we don’t.
> All of the luxury brands who have moved to price harmonization in the last 11 years have done it for two reasons.  Either they are stabilizing their pricing to go e-comm or to sell.
> 
> Anyone willing to pick up a book and educate themselves or who has been watching the Chanel trends over the last 5 years, can easily see that it’s likely the latter. However, Hermes dipping their toe into the e-comm arena with bags, some of which are quota bags, makes me think we might see Chanel start doing the same. Especially with the ”VIP boutiques” being announced. Notice it’s in quotes. They already exist within the current boutiques.
> 
> Regarding the EU price increase, it has no effect on residents of the EU countries as they don’t buy Chanel anyway, only expats. I noticed that the prices weren’t raised in Switzerland or Norway or Denmark or pick any country that’s part of the EU but doesn’t use the Euro. All of those countries’ currency are at the same rate against the USD. I‘ve also heard nothing about a price increase in the UK.  That’s will give us way more insight to what their real endgame is. If any of our UK members here know differently, please chime in.



Both Europeans, and Parisians do buy Chanel we're just not as active on the forums or FB groups   The price increase also happened in Prague (Czech Republic) a member of the EU, but hasn't adopted Euro.


----------



## MrsMega

ntntgo said:


> Thanks for the info. And I should have said the Parisians. My apologies.


I don't agree, us Parisians also buy Chanel.


----------



## BreakfastCake

ntntgo said:


> Regarding the EU price increase, it has no effect on residents of the EU countries as they don’t buy Chanel anyway, only expats.



Why would you say that EU residents don’t buy Chanel? Do you really think that?


----------



## ntntgo

JamaisAssez said:


> Selective e-commerce, yes - for fragrances, make up, etc. Not for ready-to-wear or bags.
> 
> Bruno Pavlovsky stubbornly explains in this video why they won't expand e-commerce, at the 12:20 mark.
> 
> Just like Hermès, Chanel understands and knows scarcity marketing. If they do go fully e-comm, it will be to their detriment.
> 
> Incidentally, despite expanding their e-comm offering, Hermès sales are not near Chanels, whose figures came close to LVMH last year.
> 
> *Let's be honest here: the allure of CHANEL is keeping its access very INaccessible. Scarcity marketing cultivates desire. It's a proven psychological phenomenon and that's why Hermès' game works. People want it more when they cannot get it easily. Exclusivity sells.*


I respectfully ask for further clarification of the statements in your post.

Chanel already sells makeup, sunglasses, etc on their site now.  When I said selective e-comm I meant SLGs, seasonal bags. That type of product.
So could you clarify if you were saying that only what they already sell on their site is all that we’ll see?

Also, I’m curious as to where your annual sales figures came from regarding Chanel, who does not put out an annual report and the comparison to LVMH, who had over €64 billion in revenue in 2021. I’m pretty clear on LVMH as they are one of my clients.

Also, LVMH owns almost 15% of Hermes. Just throwing that out there.

Thank you in advance for your clarifications.


----------



## ntntgo

MrsMega said:


> I don't agree, us Parisians also buy Chanel.


My apologies. I shouldn’t have generalized.


----------



## ntntgo

BreakfastCake said:


> Why would you say that EU residents don’t buy Chanel? Do you really think that?


I already addressed this in a previous reply.


----------



## JamaisAssez

ntntgo said:


> Chanel already sells makeup, sunglasses, etc on their site now. When I said selective e-comm I meant SLGs, seasonal bags. That type of product.
> So could you clarify if you were saying that only what they already sell on their site is all that we’ll see?


Thank you for clarifying, I thought by selective e-comm you were referring to their current offerings. You're perhaps right in saying that they will offer SLGs and seasonal bags on websites to weed out the "rats" in the boutiques. @TraceySH 


ntntgo said:


> Also, I’m curious as to where your annual sales figures came from regarding Chanel,


Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify. I was wrong in comparing a single house against a conglomerate, whose revenue is way higher than Chanel's since they are made up of so many brands.



			https://services.chanel.com/media/files/Press-release-2021-Results-ENG-FINAL.pdf
		


15,6 billion euros. I believe higher than Gucci, Dior and Hermès, probably close(r) to Louis Vuitton (the brand not the conglomerate).


----------



## ntntgo

JamaisAssez said:


> Thank you for clarifying, I thought by selective e-comm you were referring to their current offerings. You're perhaps right in saying that they will offer SLGs and seasonal bags on websites to weed out the "rats" in the boutiques. @TraceySH
> 
> Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify. I was wrong in comparing a single house against a conglomerate, whose revenue is way higher than Chanel's since they are made up of so many brands.
> 
> 
> 
> https://services.chanel.com/media/files/Press-release-2021-Results-ENG-FINAL.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 15,6 billion euros. I believe higher than Gucci, Dior and Hermès, probably close(r) to Louis Vuitton (the brand not the conglomerate).


Thank you for that link however, that isn’t an annual financial report. If you read the fine print at the bottom of the last page, it refers everything back to their financial statement which is nowhere to be found.

Regardless, I have two takeaways from that. 1.) My global account directors include more relevant information and write a more professional annual account review than that. It reads like it was written by a high schooler
2.) As they don’t put out an actual annual report, I question the 170.6% increase in operating profit year over. If that’s accurate then everyone who buys from Chanel should reevaluate their spending. 

Sincerely though, thank you for both your clarifications and the link.


----------



## periogirl28

I am glad I bought my tiny collection of 6 CFs about a decade ago, only added all of 3 bags, in the last 4 years. I have mainly been a very minor RTW customer since 2012, but now only buy the RTW which I don't think is shedding/ full of tinsel, logos / 90% polyester. Am cutting down on Chanel everything including perfume, makeup and eyewear due to many QC issues and the threads here have informed me very well on possible bag issues also. Once upon a time Chanel stood for something with me, but I do think I was always aware of the problems and have never really bought totally into the marketing/ hype/ romance. Even CS seems to have been more sincere back then with the gifts, makeup, show invites and flowers etc. Now we are obviously paying with the big price increases for all the influenzas (not a typo there), multiple repeat worldwide events, more celebs of all sorts and more frequent client events and gifts. Am ready anytime to walk away from Chanel, even if I do feel comfortable and welcome at R Cambon and in my home stores around the world, if I decide to. I have certainly been fortunate with my various experiences attending events and am quite satisfied with my small collection.


----------



## minnnea

ntntgo said:


> 2.) As they don’t put out an actual annual report, I question the 170.6% increase in operating profit year over. If that’s accurate then everyone who buys from Chanel should reevaluate their spending



The refenrence year for 170,6% was first pandemic year with lock downs and no travel so I think it makes sense.  Though without mentioning it does seem a bit… well too good.


----------



## gail13

Has anyone noticed Chanel likes to use the term Savoir Faire:  The meaning of which is to know, 
_or: _
-the ability to act or speak appropriately in social situations.  I'm trying to understand what this has to do with the products.

Per Philippe Blondiaux:
“This very strong financial performance reflects the strength and uniqueness of the CHANEL brand focused on creation and sustained commitment to enhance our savoir-faire, while transforming our business model to have a positive impact and achieve our sustainability ambitions. The passion and engagement of our teams around the world is a key pillar of this success.

I also see this in the statement referred to above: 
"Chanel is dedicated to ultimate luxury and to the highest level of craftsmanship."  I wonder how they define these within their own company.


----------



## AEGIS

gail13 said:


> I have been told by one of my SA's that Chanel believes the higher the price, the more we want an item. It has zero to do with quality.
> 
> Some took issue with my comments about Chanel or others like them being considered "fast fashion". However, at the rate of these collections releasing, one barely gets the items before the value falls and its onto the next. With some 8 or 9 collections inc Coco Neiege etc, that's a new bag or RTW about every 1.5 months.  As Ntntgo says, its about the hunt.  We are not used to a Chanel everyday bag, holding up to wear and tear. Isn't that what the 22 and the 19 style bags are supposed to be?
> 
> It appears the 19 flap bags are quite sturdy, but what is this kryptonite material?
> 
> Is it possible Chanel does not want to provide an everyday bag that will hold up? Wear and tear is the cornerstone of consumerism. If we are all buying bags that are not able to sustain everyday wear, that explains how wear and tear has caused the damage.  Most of the people on this forum treat their lambskin and metallic bags very delicately. Thats a collectible that belongs in a museum. And many of us including myself have these. I've got bags that have rarely if ever seen the light of day.
> 
> I guess we ask ourselves, do we want a bag we want to use or one we look at in the closet?





Chanel has too many collections. It's a money grab.


----------



## ntntgo

minnnea said:


> The refenrence year for 170,6% was first pandemic year with lock downs and no travel so I think it makes sense.  Though without mentioning it does seem a bit… well too good.


The issue I have with that .pdf is that it’s not an actual annual report which is required.  I own a much smaller company and even I have to register an annual report.  

More importantly is the reference to their “financial statement” in the fine print at the bottom.  Where is that financial statement?  I’d love to see it if anyone can find it as it would be included in their annual report, if they actually put one out as they are required to.

Somewhere back in this thread, someone mentioned them being fined for not doing so.  It wasn’t me but I can tell you as someone who has owned 3 companies, one quite large that was sold off, I was fined one year for not uploading my annual report.  So I don’t doubt it.  I even searched for it under Mousse Partners, the holding company that Chanel falls under and according to the SEC, they haven’t even filed them.  To be clear, Mousse Partners Ltd is registered with the SEC. They run on a fiscal year, not calendar and it ends on Dec 12th.  According to the SEC, they’ve filed no papers since they made the change to Litor Ltd as being the DBA as Mousse.  I suspect they did that as they incorporated in the Caymans but, as they are registered with the SEC, they are still required to file an annual report.


----------



## alxyoung

gail13 said:


> Has anyone noticed Chanel likes to use the term Savoir Faire:  The meaning of which is to know,
> _or: _
> -the ability to act or speak appropriately in social situations.  I'm trying to understand what this has to do with the products.
> 
> Per Philippe Blondiaux:
> “This very strong financial performance reflects the strength and uniqueness of the CHANEL brand focused on creation and sustained commitment to enhance our savoir-faire, while transforming our business model to have a positive impact and achieve our sustainability ambitions. The passion and engagement of our teams around the world is a key pillar of this success.
> 
> I also see this in the statement referred to above:
> "Chanel is dedicated to ultimate luxury and to the highest level of craftsmanship."  I wonder how they define these within their own company.



It can be translated to know-how. In this sense, I would say craftsmanship .


----------



## periogirl28

alxyoung said:


> It can be translated to know-how. In this sense, I would say craftsmanship .


Agree. Hermes is super happy to use it too. It's marketing.


----------



## gail13

periogirl28 said:


> Agree. Hermes is super happy to use it too. It's marketing.


It is ALL marketing.  And most of it can not be substantiated.


----------



## zaraha

ntntgo said:


> The issue I have with that .pdf is that it’s not an actual annual report which is required.  I own a much smaller company and even I have to register an annual report.
> 
> More importantly is the reference to their “financial statement” in the fine print at the bottom.  Where is that financial statement?  I’d love to see it if anyone can find it as it would be included in their annual report, if they actually put one out as they are required to.
> 
> Somewhere back in this thread, someone mentioned them being fined for not doing so.  It wasn’t me but I can tell you as someone who has owned 3 companies, one quite large that was sold off, I was fined one year for not uploading my annual report.  So I don’t doubt it.  I even searched for it under Mousse Partners, the holding company that Chanel falls under and according to the SEC, they haven’t even filed them.  To be clear, Mousse Partners Ltd is registered with the SEC. They run on a fiscal year, not calendar and it ends on Dec 12th.  According to the SEC, they’ve filed no papers since they made the change to Litor Ltd as being the DBA as Mousse.  I suspect they did that as they incorporated in the Caymans but, as they are registered with the SEC, they are still required to file an annual report.


I thought Chanel is not publicly traded, so financial statement would be difficult to find no?


----------



## Swanky

gail13 said:


> It is ALL marketing.  And most of it can not be substantiated.



As are a lot of the posts in this thread.  We hear what we want to, connect to the info that resonates with us. 
I take what I read online with a grain of salt, just like I do with marketing.


----------



## gail13

Swanky said:


> As are a lot of the posts in this thread.  We hear what we want to, connect to the info that resonates with us.
> I take what I read online with a grain of salt, just like I do with marketing.


Yes you are so right, we do hear what we want to hear.  I think many of the posts here have been substantiated, but of course everyone should take what they want from it. Most advertising is not all that honest and lets face it, brands hire agencies that design it to sell to us, they sell us stories.  It's quite fascinating really, how we can be swayed by something intangible that makes us feel a certain way and that something makes us buy. 

Most of us are not familiar with the loopholes in truth in advertising with products. That you can call something natural or organic even if its not really, or something can be called leather, even if its only partly leather.  We  know made in Italy means it was finished being assembled there, but parts came from and made elsewhere.  It goes way beyond this Fashion House but they certainly are fully in it.


----------



## TraceySH

gail13 said:


> Yes you are so right, we do hear what we want to hear.  I think many of the posts here have been substantiated, but of course everyone should take what they want from it. Most advertising is not all that honest and lets face it, brands hire agencies that design it to sell to us, they sell us stories.  It's quite fascinating really, how we can be swayed by something intangible that makes us feel a certain way and that something makes us buy.
> 
> Most of us are not familiar with the loopholes in truth in advertising with products. That you can call something natural or organic even if its not really, or something can be called leather, even if its only partly leather.  We  know made in Italy means it was finished being assembled there, but parts came from and made elsewhere.  It goes way beyond this Fashion House but they certainly are fully in it.


And the perfect client neither wants or cares to know, and doesn’t ask too many questions 

I am the perfect client for the peanut butter moo’d at Jamba Juice. It has an ungodly amount of calories and no telling how much sugar and hydrolyzed blah blah blah. But I have it nearly every day. And don’t want to know specifics cuz that would ruin my fun. Same dance with bacon. Overt ingestion of knowledge makes something actionable, I rather enjoy my inertia on guilty pleasures. I’d imagine Chanel might be the same blind romance.


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> And the perfect client neither wants or cares to know, and doesn’t ask too many questions
> 
> I am the perfect client for the peanut butter moo’d at Jamba Juice. It has an ungodly amount of calories and no telling how much sugar and hydrolyzed blah blah blah. But I have it nearly every day. And don’t want to know specifics cuz that would ruin my fun. Same dance with bacon. Overt ingestion of knowledge makes something actionable, I rather enjoy my inertia on guilty pleasures. I’d imagine Chanel might be the same blind romance.


Yes its the bad boyfriend we love and can't dump even tho we know its totally dysfunctional.


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> And the perfect client neither wants or cares to know, and doesn’t ask too many questions
> 
> I am the perfect client for the peanut butter moo’d at Jamba Juice. It has an ungodly amount of calories and no telling how much sugar and hydrolyzed blah blah blah. But I have it nearly every day. And don’t want to know specifics cuz that would ruin my fun. Same dance with bacon. Overt ingestion of knowledge makes something actionable, I rather enjoy my inertia on guilty pleasures. I’d imagine Chanel might be the same blind romance.


I like to think many of us are educated and want to learn, we DO ask about the creative processs/design and thought behind the collections, and the materials used. After all, this is what is supposed to differentiate the premiere brand from the contemporary? If we can't rely on the best designs and materials, what is left?  If Chanel is not going to disclose the process or materials, what are we left with?


----------



## ntntgo

zaraha said:


> I thought Chanel is not publicly traded, so financial statement would be difficult to find no?


If a company has filed with the SEC, they are required to put out an annual report. 

i can’t speak for other states but all 3 of my companies, even the small one, has to file an annual report with the state or you lose your FEIN number & the company shows as inactive.


----------



## Liberté

Financial reports for Chanel limited in the UK can be found here. Annural report and financial statement for 2021 is available here. It's a scanned document and so not easily searchable... Kind of surprising.


----------



## ntntgo

Liberté said:


> Financial reports for Chanel limited in the UK can be found here. Annural report and financial statement for 2021 is available here. It's a scanned document and so not easily searchable... Kind of surprising.


The first link are just the reup of the articles of incorporation.  The 2nd link goes nowhere. But thanks for trying. 
This is Hermes 2021 (as I know there will be naysayers comparing any other private company in the world to almighty Chanel). This is what an annual report looks like and the information that it is legally required to contain. Of course Hermes fluffed it up, which is fine because it contains the legally required financial statement. Hopefully, if anyone cares to look, the comparison is glaring between Chanel’s one page document that looks like it was created by my 15 year old niece trying to get by on an economics assignment & an actual annual report. 



			https://assets-finance.hermes.com/s3fs-public/node/pdf_file/2022-04/1650894273/HERMES-URD2021-EN_03.pdf
		


All I’m saying is that it’s a little suspect that a company the size of Chanel Ltd that is owned by a holding company doesn‘t put out a legally required annual report.

Before someone comes back stating well, Chanel is privately owned or they aren’t required to put out an annual report, please please don’t look at the world of Chanel through tweed colored glasses. They are not a fashion house. They are a singular company within a portfolio that owns over 60 companies. Unless you have a subscription to Crunchbase or if you want fashion specific, Fashionbi, you can’t even see their most basic annual report. So even if I link it here, unless you have a paid subscription, you can’t see it. 
2018 was the last time Chanel put out an annual report. 

The Hermes report is made public as a point of reference.


----------



## rainbowneko

ntntgo said:


> The first link are just the reup of the articles of incorporation.  The 2nd link goes nowhere. But thanks for trying.
> This is Hermes 2021 (as I know there will be naysayers comparing any other private company in the world to almighty Chanel). This is what an annual report looks like and the information that it is legally required to contain. Of course Hermes fluffed it up, which is fine because it contains the legally required financial statement. Hopefully, if anyone cares to look, the comparison is glaring between Chanel’s one page document that looks like it was created by my 15 year old niece trying to get by on an economics assignment & an actual annual report.
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets-finance.hermes.com/s3fs-public/node/pdf_file/2022-04/1650894273/HERMES-URD2021-EN_03.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> All I’m saying is that it’s a little suspect that a company the size of Chanel Ltd that is owned by a holding company doesn‘t put out a legally required annual report.
> 
> Before someone comes back stating well, Chanel is privately owned or they aren’t required to put out an annual report, please please don’t look at the world of Chanel through tweed colored glasses. They are not a fashion house. They are a singular company within a portfolio that owns over 60 companies. Unless you have a subscription to Crunchbase or if you want fashion specific, Fashionbi, you can’t even see their most basic annual report. So even if I link it here, unless you have a paid subscription, you can’t see it.
> 2018 was the last time Chanel put out an annual report.
> 
> The Hermes report is made public as a point of reference.


Thanks for sharing the information which led me to use capitalIQ and factiva to do some research on this company.

I went to capitalIQ and Factiva and check on Chanel..... TRULY SHOCKING!!
omg i always thought Chanel (or other luxury fashion brands) is just a fashion house that focuses on outsourcing, marketing, and distributing products through their various channels. I'm so wrong and probably blinded by it.

what i understood is that there are more than 60 companies based on Factiva.. in addition, there are quite a few M&A activities going on in some of the subsidiaries according to capital IQ.. truly a Venture Capitalist firm hahahaha.

also, i managed to extract the financial statements (up till FY21) in Chanel UK (a subsidiary) for everyone's reference!! misinformation -> refer to the uploaded photocopied annual report audited by one of big 4s instead   the photocopied annual report is Chanel Limited (which consolidated all subsidiaries' financial information, in this case, Chanel Limited is the parent company, and Lidor is the ultimate parent company.)

edit: very smart of Litor Limited for setting up in Cayman Islands... no one knows (or at least in the Internet space) how much revenue or profits they are earning


----------



## JamaisAssez

Thank you so much for sharing @rainbowneko! 

A 2021 revenue of 42998 (000€), that doesn’t seem a lot, no? (43 million euros, that’s it?) 

Forgive me, I’m not well versed in financial statement literacy.


----------



## JamaisAssez

TraceySH said:


> Overt ingestion of knowledge makes something actionable, I rather enjoy my inertia on guilty pleasures. I’d imagine Chanel might be the same blind romance.


Tracey, you read like a novelist. It’s simply a joy to read your writing.


----------



## rainbowneko

JamaisAssez said:


> Thank you so much for sharing @rainbowneko!
> 
> A 2021 revenue of 42998 (000€), that doesn’t seem a lot, no? (43 million euros, that’s it?)
> 
> Forgive me, I’m not well versed in financial statement literacy.


Hi Jamais!

Yeah, i compared the capitalIQ statement against the financial statement uploaded by chanel. Since the financial statement was audited by one of the big 4s, just take the capitalIQ a pinch of salt (i will remove it shortly cause i think it caused some misinformation!). The 43 million euros is the revenue of Chanel UK (assuming revenue from UK stores) in FY21 (sorry for the confusion because too many chanel subsidiaries slightly confusing!!)

here's the link provided by @Liberté https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/L8aPwWhNSTnqPXB-kJSr5e7hDGyPCJhgEhu1UlUyLuA/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3FTZ2YMQ5/20220813/eu-west-2/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220813T150559Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=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&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline;filename="companies_house_document.pdf"&X-Amz-Signature=575850bfd2711e7c9286e8a66266cb60f3fc20f42b67796f37ba1864d0131001

Consolidated financial statements refer to all the revenue and expenses added across all the subsidiaries. Since the financial statements denoted in million of US dollars soooooooooooooooo from what i observed..... i can say that the revenue for 2021 was 15b USD (i think its more accurate than the capitalIQ). In addition, how did i derive 15b USD? because refer to the second screenshot, their total intangible assets was 500usd (so in terms of millions, it should be 500 million usd, correct me if i'm wrong!).
Hence, operating profits for the FY2021 was 4b USD i think sort of makes sense also.

Referring to the last few pages you will note that there is a massive list of subsidiaries and most of them are wholly owned by Chanel..


----------



## ntntgo

rainbowneko said:


> Thanks for sharing the information which led me to use capitalIQ and factiva to do some research on this company.
> 
> I went to capitalIQ and Factiva and check on Chanel..... TRULY SHOCKING!!
> omg i always thought Chanel (or other luxury fashion brands) is just a fashion house that focuses on outsourcing, marketing, and distributing products through their various channels. I'm so wrong and probably blinded by it.
> 
> what i understood is that there are more than 60 companies based on Factiva.. in addition, there are quite a few M&A activities going on in some of the subsidiaries according to capital IQ.. truly a Venture Capitalist firm hahahaha.
> 
> also, i managed to extract the financial statements (up till FY21) in Chanel UK for everyone's reference!!
> 
> edit: very smart of Litor Limited for setting up in Cayman Islands... no one knows (or at least in the Internet space) how much revenue or profits they are earning
> View attachment 5589097



Nice job! I have access to Capital IQ but it is tiered based & customized based on geo & vertical. 
Based on reading what you downloaded, that looks like it’s strictly the UK database, correct?

The point that stands out so prominently to me is the inventory turnover of 24. Seriously??? 24??? That certainly explains the quality deficiency now doesn’t it?

Do you have FactSet? Or preferably a Bloomberg account? It would be interesting to compare. 

Regardless, now that Chanel via Mousse has been set up as a DBA of Litor which is hmmmm…set up in the Caymans, well that speaks volumes. 

Thank you for delving deeper.

ETA: Your subsequent post that went up as I was writing makes all of us look like sheep now. Thank you for doing the due diligence.


----------



## rainbowneko

ntntgo said:


> Nice job! I have access to Capital IQ but it is tiered based & customized based on geo & vertical.
> Based on reading what you downloaded, that looks like it’s strictly the UK database, correct?
> 
> The point that stands out so prominently to me is the inventory turnover of 24. Seriously??? 24??? That certainly explains the quality deficiency now doesn’t it?
> 
> Do you have FactSet? Or preferably a Bloomberg account? It would be interesting to compare.
> 
> Regardless, now that Chanel via Mousse has been set up as a DBA of Litor which is hmmmm…set up in the Caymans, well that speaks volumes.
> 
> Thank you for delving deeper.


I do not owned FactSet and Bloomberg  only CapitalIQ (limited settings) and Factiva. But the information provided by both of the websites are quite limited as well. As for the annual report provided by chanel also not detailed enough as compared to other companies they would do a breakdown on the sales based on the geographical locations. Seems like chanel is not transparent enough...

So i managed to dig out this critical information that was being locked because my organisation did not subscribed to it.. just wondering if we are able to know their trading partners, i feel that we can better understand where chanel gets their raw materials from etc


----------



## rainbowneko

ntntgo said:


> Nice job! I have access to Capital IQ but it is tiered based & customized based on geo & vertical.
> Based on reading what you downloaded, that looks like it’s strictly the UK database, correct?
> 
> The point that stands out so prominently to me is the inventory turnover of 24. Seriously??? 24??? That certainly explains the quality deficiency now doesn’t it?
> 
> Do you have FactSet? Or preferably a Bloomberg account? It would be interesting to compare.
> 
> Regardless, now that Chanel via Mousse has been set up as a DBA of Litor which is hmmmm…set up in the Caymans, well that speaks volumes.
> 
> Thank you for delving deeper.
> 
> ETA: Your subsequent post that went up as I was writing makes all of us look like sheep now. Thank you for doing the due diligence.


I'm more amazed by the ROE and ROC in FY21! The financial statement is under Chanel UK (should be Chanel UK subsidiary)

Reuploading the *Chanel UK financial statements* here.

*Global/ overall Chanel financial statements (Chanel Limited)* can be found in the above post link.


----------



## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> Tracey, you read like a novelist. It’s simply a joy to read your writing.


What a tremendous and humbling compliment. Wow, thank you


----------



## TraceySH

@ntntgo @rainbowneko THANK YOU guys for these deep dives and explanations. I am having a little bit of a hard time following b/c this isn't my area of expertise, but I am getting the gist. 

In layman's terms....what does all this REALLY mean? Can you guys summarize how this conflicts (or doesn't) with our "consumer image" of Chanel?


----------



## rainbowneko

TraceySH said:


> @ntntgo @rainbowneko THANK YOU guys for these deep dives and explanations. I am having a little bit of a hard time following b/c this isn't my area of expertise, but I am getting the gist.
> 
> In layman's terms....what does all this REALLY mean? Can you guys summarize how this conflicts (or doesn't) with our "consumer image" of Chanel?


In my opinion, as a new chanel consumer (because i only started my mini chanel bags collection a few years ago, didn't own any vintage pieces, not a vip client as well), after doing research and reading up on the financial statements uploaded by chanel limited, there are a few takeaways:

1. General consumers may think that the entire chanel brand is only by chanel limited (at least this is what i am thinking until today I did research on it). The fact that Litor Ltd is staying away from the limelight is already a big red flag as we do not have any idea whether the company is solely owned by Wertheimer family or mix of people. In addition, Litor Ltd does not have any official information eg. types of business activities surfaced on capitalIQ as well. As a consumer, i feel abit "cheated"/ doubtful because the money spent on chanel items might not be greatly reinvested to improve the quality of the products or even raise production line (pretty sure they have sufficient funds to do so). If chanel really reinvested to improve the quality of the products, there will be lesser people complaining on social media platforms!! from time to time i saw users posting their chanel issues on chinese social media app...

2. They are not transparent with the consumers with their financial statements because, on the chanel website, they only uploaded key highlights which are not really useful as compared to a full annual report. As a consumer, what kind of subsidiaries, joint ventures etc they are having as well because technically it helps to reduce production costs, and when Chanel said they increase prices for price harmonisation is really bs...........

3. They preach a lot on sustainability but they are churning out so many "fast-fashion paced" products... does it even make sense? I am not surprised if they are going to have 12 collections in a year in the near future!!


----------



## lovieluvslux

gail13 said:


> And you would be shocked how much this happens. I have shopped the LA Garment District for years and talked to countless merchants who sell to all kinds of people. You can buy stuff for $10 that resells for 10x the price and no one has any idea. And yes, the perceived brand perception is what sells it, not the actual quality.


Bringing back memories.  I used to shop the LA Garment District (not sure if still exists today), over 15 years ago.  I would find clothing, including some costume jewelry.  Later would see some of those pieces in boutiques with a huge mark up.  I get the boutique and stores has expenses, staff and commercial rental overhead, but I am very careful when shopping for clothing as I always think "how much was this top marked up?"

Back to topic, I no longer crave Chanel like I used to.  The constant price increases, and the hunting bear mentality of finding the bag got tiresome.  Then all the frustration and guilt, when I passed on an "it" bag,  because I saw some YTber bragging about it.  I've seen quality issues and re-thought the use of high end designer bags.  For example, the bijoux chain is lovely.  However, because of my rounded shoulders, I had a slippage problem.  It go so annoying that I decided that style was not for me.


----------



## ntntgo

rainbowneko said:


> In my opinion, as a new chanel consumer (because i only started my mini chanel bags collection a few years ago, didn't own any vintage pieces, not a vip client as well), after doing research and reading up on the financial statements uploaded by chanel limited, there are a few takeaways:
> 
> 1. General consumers may think that the entire chanel brand is only by chanel limited (at least this is what i am thinking until today I did research on it). The fact that Litor Ltd is staying away from the limelight is already a big red flag as we do not have any idea whether the company is solely owned by Wertheimer family or mix of people. In addition, Litor Ltd does not have any official information eg. types of business activities surfaced on capitalIQ as well. As a consumer, i feel abit "cheated"/ doubtful because the money spent on chanel items might not be greatly reinvested to improve the quality of the products or even raise production line (pretty sure they have sufficient funds to do so). If chanel really reinvested to improve the quality of the products, there will be lesser people complaining on social media platforms!! from time to time i saw users posting their chanel issues on chinese social media app...
> 
> 2. They are not transparent with the consumers with their financial statements because, on the chanel website, they only uploaded key highlights which are not really useful as compared to a full annual report. As a consumer, what kind of subsidiaries, joint ventures etc they are having as well because technically it helps to reduce production costs, and when Chanel said they increase prices for price harmonisation is really bs...........
> 
> 3. They preach a lot on sustainability but they are churning out so many "fast-fashion paced" products... does it even make sense? I am not surprised if they are going to have 12 collections in a year in the near future!!



I’m assuming, possibly incorrectly, that you work in finance because you have a better than most understanding of financials. Not to mention access (limited or not) to UK  financials. 

Chanel, Mousse & definitely not Litor as my clients. I do have all 3 of the  conglomerates. LVMH, Kering & Richemont. So I have to be careful trying to access the Chanel accounts.  Hermes was awarded for their financial transparency so it doesn’t take much to get their annual reports. 

To your point #3, you are entirely correct about sustainability. They have no transparency regarding sustainability, DE&I or an org chart, including share holders. Yes folks, there are 14 shareholders in the Chanel Ltd company and they are not all Wertheimers. 

The reason they put out the 2018 annual report was because they were raising capital. 

The $5 billion taken out of Chanel Ltd (yes it was strictly that company within the portfolio) was not used toward the recent purchases of green companies, healthcare (mainly Brightside Health) and their most recent, Evolved by Nature which they put $120 million into. The divestiture in Ulta was a decent sized one. 
Here is a link to Crunchbase that will not require the subscription that my company has. But it will show you the huge amounts of money has been put into other companies. 



			https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/mousse-partners/recent_investments
		


The only reason I’m spending time in this thread is because I would love people to educate themselves on where their money is going and why quality subsides while prices increase. 

This is the behavior of a VC that is preparing to sell off their most famous name in their portfolio. 

I’d like to reiterate that these are facts, not conjecture or opinions as some have implied.


----------



## bagsamplified

TraceySH said:


> Yeah it's not leather. Neither is the 22 bag. Bonded leather at best. See the peeling above the chafing? NOT leather lol.
> 
> View attachment 5576902


Thank you for sharing this and so sorry you had to go through this. I wonder if the SLGs are like this, too. Such a shame.


----------



## 880

DamierEbene said:


> there were sales every six months including bags that didn’t sell


There were 60% sales of seasonal bags, RTW, Shoes for many years. Prior to the print ad in the NYT, there would be a private day and clients would load up


ntntgo said:


> 2018 was the last time Chanel put out an annual report.





ntntgo said:


> This is the behavior of a VC that is preparing to sell off their most famous name in their portfolio.


I believe there was an article possibly NYT, but I don’t remember surmising that the annual report 2018 was the clue that chanel was looking to sell (or at least appear a very attractive 15 billion USD company. I don’t remember details, and pls someone correct me if I’m off base. I also don’t know what the ratio iss re company valuation and multiples of yearly earnings


----------



## EpiFanatic

rainbowneko said:


> Hi Jamais!
> 
> Yeah, i compared the capitalIQ statement against the financial statement uploaded by chanel. Since the financial statement was audited by one of the big 4s, just take the capitalIQ a pinch of salt (i will remove it shortly cause i think it caused some misinformation!). The 43 million euros is the revenue of Chanel UK (assuming revenue from UK stores) in FY21 (sorry for the confusion because too many chanel subsidiaries slightly confusing!!)
> 
> here's the link provided by @Liberté https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/L8aPwWhNSTnqPXB-kJSr5e7hDGyPCJhgEhu1UlUyLuA/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3FTZ2YMQ5/20220813/eu-west-2/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220813T150559Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=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&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline;filename="companies_house_document.pdf"&X-Amz-Signature=575850bfd2711e7c9286e8a66266cb60f3fc20f42b67796f37ba1864d0131001
> 
> Consolidated financial statements refer to all the revenue and expenses added across all the subsidiaries. Since the financial statements denoted in million of US dollars soooooooooooooooo from what i observed..... i can say that the revenue for 2021 was 15b USD (i think its more accurate than the capitalIQ). In addition, how did i derive 15b USD? because refer to the second screenshot, their total intangible assets was 500usd (so in terms of millions, it should be 500 million usd, correct me if i'm wrong!).
> Hence, operating profits for the FY2021 was 4b USD i think sort of makes sense also.
> 
> Referring to the last few pages you will note that there is a massive list of subsidiaries and most of them are wholly owned by Chanel..
> View attachment 5589173
> 
> 
> View attachment 5589175


@rainbowneko thanks for this great info. Can you please explain again what business lines the “consolidated” f/s includes?  Were separate b/s and I/s provided for each line of business to rollup to the consolidated ones? Were there footnotes to the f/s?  I’d be very curious to read them.  I will say I am sadly surprised at the very low COGS as a percentage of sales.  But since this seems to include many different lines of business you cannot tell whether this is due to the fashion house p&l.  Just not enough info here.
I just looked at Hermes f/s and if anyone is interested the p&l starts on page 40.  And a few pages before that sales by region. Very interesting. Japan has its own line. Lol!  But just based on the sales detail, I can clearly tell the amount of income generated by their various product lines. Interesting info. And their COGS as a percentage of sales is so much a higher than Chanel’s.  WTH.


----------



## zaraha

rainbowneko said:


> I went to capitalIQ and Factiva and check on Chanel..... TRULY SHOCKING!!
> omg i always thought Chanel (or other luxury fashion brands) is just a fashion house that focuses on outsourcing, marketing, and distributing products through their various channels. I'm so wrong and probably blinded by it.
> 
> what i understood is that there are more than 60 companies based on Factiva.. in addition, there are quite a few M&A activities going on in some of the subsidiaries according to capital IQ.. truly a Venture Capitalist firm hahahaha.
> 
> also, i managed to extract the financial statements (up till FY21) in Chanel UK (a subsidiary) for everyone's reference!! misinformation -> refer to the uploaded photocopied annual report audited by one of big 4s instead   the photocopied annual report is Chanel Limited (which consolidated all subsidiaries' financial information, in this case, Chanel Limited is the parent company, and Lidor is the ultimate parent company.)
> 
> edit: very smart of Litor Limited for setting up in Cayman Islands... no one knows (or at least in the Internet space) how much revenue or profits they are earning
> View attachment 5589097


WOW I feel more we dig deeper, more we don’t know about “Chanel”.
Thank you for sharing all this info…


----------



## YEANETT

zaraha said:


> During pendamic I fell in love with small classic size, after 10-15 years of heavily buying jumbos, maxis and mediums.  I don’t recall running into lot of quality issues with those classics back then.  I recently added the small classic; unfortunately I had to go thru about 5 major faulty bags to find a decent one.
> Sorry pictures came out so big.
> View attachment 5581067
> 
> 
> View attachment 5581068


So sorry this happened to you. I went through the same change since 2019, from all jumbos to small CFs, curiosity, may I ask what year was your black caviar from?


----------



## Ghettoe

TraceySH said:


> For our next round, we have Clorox degreaser w/ bleach sprayed on, rubbed in and wiped off with a  Clorox wipe, then put back under hot water, dried off. "Lambskin" LMAO.
> 
> View attachment 5577485
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577486
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577487
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577488
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577489
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577490
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577491
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577492



As someone who just randomly clicked on this with no clue about what this discussion is fully about. This has got to be the best bag advert I've seen. Chanel should send you a check because I've never cared about this bag until now. Now I'm like, maybe I need this bag!


----------



## rainbowneko

ntntgo said:


> I’m assuming, possibly incorrectly, that you work in finance because you have a better than most understanding of financials. Not to mention access (limited or not) to UK  financials.
> 
> Chanel, Mousse & definitely not Litor as my clients. I do have all 3 of the  conglomerates. LVMH, Kering & Richemont. So I have to be careful trying to access the Chanel accounts.  Hermes was awarded for their financial transparency so it doesn’t take much to get their annual reports.
> 
> To your point #3, you are entirely correct about sustainability. They have no transparency regarding sustainability, DE&I or an org chart, including share holders. Yes folks, there are 14 shareholders in the Chanel Ltd company and they are not all Wertheimers.
> 
> The reason they put out the 2018 annual report was because they were raising capital.
> 
> The $5 billion taken out of Chanel Ltd (yes it was strictly that company within the portfolio) was not used toward the recent purchases of green companies, healthcare (mainly Brightside Health) and their most recent, Evolved by Nature which they put $120 million into. The divestiture in Ulta was a decent sized one.
> Here is a link to Crunchbase that will not require the subscription that my company has. But it will show you the huge amounts of money has been put into other companies.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/mousse-partners/recent_investments
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason I’m spending time in this thread is because I would love people to educate themselves on where their money is going and why quality subsides while prices increase.
> 
> This is the behavior of a VC that is preparing to sell off their most famous name in their portfolio.
> 
> I’d like to reiterate that these are facts, not conjecture or opinions as some have implied.


I have an accountancy background which explained why I question chanel's way of doing business. You are right that the real intention of chanel constant price increases is to fund VC/ investment activities instead of heavily re-investing back into chanel.

Thank you for sharing additional insights on mousse partners and their M&A activities! I found this an old article which might be helpful for others to read and understand what mousse partners involved in (if unable to access it, try to use private browser!)


			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		


Really appreciate that many people in this thread start to question this company and provide lots of useful information!! We are here to learn from one another!


----------



## TraceySH

rainbowneko said:


> I have an accountancy background which explained why I question chanel's way of doing business. You are right that the real intention of chanel constant price increases is to fund VC/ investment activities instead of re-investing back into chanel.
> 
> Thank you for sharing additional insights on mousse partners and their M&A activities! I found this an old article which might be helpful for others to read and understand what mousse partners involved in (if unable to access it, try to use private browser!)
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> 
> 
> Really appreciate that many people in this thread start to question this company and provide lots of useful information!! We are here to learn from one another!


Thank you @rainbowneko for your research and really great explanations. This is a HUGE deal. Price increases having nothing to do with Chanel as we know it at all, but rather to fund other ventures is … actually for me pretty nauseating.


----------



## TraceySH

ntntgo said:


> I’m assuming, possibly incorrectly, that you work in finance because you have a better than most understanding of financials. Not to mention access (limited or not) to UK  financials.
> 
> Chanel, Mousse & definitely not Litor as my clients. I do have all 3 of the  conglomerates. LVMH, Kering & Richemont. So I have to be careful trying to access the Chanel accounts.  Hermes was awarded for their financial transparency so it doesn’t take much to get their annual reports.
> 
> To your point #3, you are entirely correct about sustainability. They have no transparency regarding sustainability, DE&I or an org chart, including share holders. Yes folks, there are 14 shareholders in the Chanel Ltd company and they are not all Wertheimers.
> 
> The reason they put out the 2018 annual report was because they were raising capital.
> 
> The $5 billion taken out of Chanel Ltd (yes it was strictly that company within the portfolio) was not used toward the recent purchases of green companies, healthcare (mainly Brightside Health) and their most recent, Evolved by Nature which they put $120 million into. The divestiture in Ulta was a decent sized one.
> Here is a link to Crunchbase that will not require the subscription that my company has. But it will show you the huge amounts of money has been put into other companies.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/mousse-partners/recent_investments
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason I’m spending time in this thread is because I would love people to educate themselves on where their money is going and why quality subsides while prices increase.
> 
> This is the behavior of a VC that is preparing to sell off their most famous name in their portfolio.
> 
> I’d like to reiterate that these are facts, not conjecture or opinions as some have implied.


Insane amount of info here @ntntgo thank you. The 40k’ view w/ all the various parts (which I guess I really failed to even consider) start to complete the puzzle of why/ who/ where/ how that I’ve been struggling to understand. 

Sounds just like another banal opportunistic capitalistic conglomerate that has nothing to do with fashion/ heritage/ pride & just bleeds profits from one subsidiary to another. How… uninspiring.


----------



## TraceySH

Ghettoe said:


> As someone who just randomly clicked on this with no clue about what this discussion is fully about. This has got to be the best bag advert I've seen. Chanel should send you a check because I've never cared about this bag until now. Now I'm like, maybe I need this bag!


Well, it might not be all leather, but it will last. And that certainly counts for something!!! I’ve been using this bag for a couple of days now in rotation and not a blemish on it


----------



## periogirl28

TraceySH said:


> Thank you @rainbowneko for your research and really great explanations. This is a HUGE deal. Price increases having nothing to do with Chanel as we know it at all, but rather to fund other ventures is … actually for me pretty nauseating.


And I thought it was to maintain loss making Couture and keep their Métiers  Maisons afloat. I'm so naive.  Shall be giving DH these reports to look at, as he has the right background to interpret and explain to me.


----------



## rainbowneko

EpiFanatic said:


> @rainbowneko thanks for this great info. Can you please explain again what business lines the “consolidated” f/s includes?  Were separate b/s and I/s provided for each line of business to rollup to the consolidated ones? Were there footnotes to the f/s?  I’d be very curious to read them.  I will say I am sadly surprised at the very low COGS as a percentage of sales.  But since this seems to include many different lines of business you cannot tell whether this is due to the fashion house p&l.  Just not enough info here.
> I just looked at Hermes f/s and if anyone is interested the p&l starts on page 40.  And a few pages before that sales by region. Very interesting. Japan has its own line. Lol!  But just based on the sales detail, I can clearly tell the amount of income generated by their various product lines. Interesting info. And their COGS as a percentage of sales is so much a higher than Chanel’s.  WTH.


Hello EpiFanatic!!

Consolidated financial statement is defined as the "financial statements of a group in which the assets, liabilities, equity, income, expenses and cash flows of the parent company and its subsidiaries are presented as those of a single economic entity". So in this case, Chanel Limited is the "middle person"/ parent, Litdor Ltd is the ultimate parent (the main owners), and the rest of the companies under Chanel Limited owns are called subsidiaries.

Due to the nature of the extremely large volume of subsidiaries, it will be hard for Chanel to come up with each balance sheet or income statement line item and tagged to the respective subsidiaries. You are right on each line of business or subsidiary are being added together and it is reflected as an aggregate amount eg. revenue in Chanel Limited consisting of all the subsidiaries, joint ventures, and associates' revenue. So Chanel Limited did include Chanel UK's revenue (which explained why Chanel UK was having only 43m Euro Dollars, while the overall Chanel Limited had 15b USD).

There are notes to financial statements that you can deep dive into. I also noted that the inventory value was cut by half as well. This made me wonder did they managed to cut the production costs significantly (so the valuation on the goods is lower) or they produced lesser goods (which explains why it is so hard and competitive to get chanel bags these days), or both.  [Correction: i have uploaded the correct screenshot here, which is in USD on the breakdown of the inventory. So yes, there is around 15% drop in value from the finished goods. so......... did they managed to cut the production costs significantly (so the valuation on the goods is lower) or they produced lesser goods, or both?]



I have made a comparison between Chanel, LVMH Group and Hermes on their COGS relative to the revenue for FY2021, FY2020, and FY2019. Understand that Chanel had the most changes in % for COGS. Despite the percentage numbers are small, but actually its quite alot considering the annual report denotes millions.

Note: all 3 comparing companies used in terms of millions in their financial statements

Hope the comparison helps you guys to understand what is going on with the extent of the *potential* cost-cutting in COGS between pre and post covid years.




sources: Chanel Limited 2019 Report https://sec.report/lux/doc/101873535


			https://r.lvmh-static.com/uploads/2022/01/press-release-2021-lvmh-full-year-results.pdf
		



			https://assets-finance.hermes.com/s3fs-public/node/pdf_file/2020-07/1595280621/hermesinternational-urd-2019-en.pdf


----------



## rainbowneko

zaraha said:


> WOW I feel more we dig deeper, more we don’t know about “Chanel”.
> Thank you for sharing all this info…


I feel like i got scammed into buying the brand hahahaha


----------



## TraceySH

rainbowneko said:


> Hello EpiFanatic!!
> 
> Consolidated financial statement is defined as the "financial statements of a group in which the assets, liabilities, equity, income, expenses and cash flows of the parent company and its subsidiaries are presented as those of a single economic entity". So in this case, Chanel Limited is the "middle person"/ parent, Litdor Ltd is the ultimate parent (the main owners), and the rest of the companies under Chanel Limited owns are called subsidiaries.
> 
> Due to the nature of the extremely large volume of subsidiaries, it will be hard for Chanel to come up with each balance sheet or income statement line item and tagged to the respective subsidiaries. You are right on each line of business or subsidiary are being added together and it is reflected as an aggregate amount eg. revenue in Chanel Limited consisting of all the subsidiaries, joint ventures, and associates' revenue. So Chanel Limited did include Chanel UK's revenue (which explained why Chanel UK was having only 43m Euro Dollars, while the overall Chanel Limited had 15b USD).
> 
> There are notes to financial statements that you can deep dive into. I also noted that the inventory value cut by half as well. This made me wondered did they managed to cut the production costs significantly or they produced lesser goods (which explains why it is so hard and competitive to get chanel bags these days), or both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5589583
> 
> 
> I have made a comparison between Chanel, LVMH Group and Hermes on their COGS relative to the revenue for FY2021, FY2020, and FY2019. Understand that Chanel had the most changes in % for COGS. Despite the percentage numbers are small, but actually its quite alot considering the annual report denotes millions.
> 
> Note: all 3 comparing companies used in terms of millions in their financial statements
> 
> Hope the comparison helps you guys to understand what is going on with the extent of the *potential* cost-cutting in COGS between pre and post covid years.
> 
> View attachment 5589592
> 
> 
> sources: Chanel Limited 2019 Report https://sec.report/lux/doc/101873535
> 
> 
> https://r.lvmh-static.com/uploads/2022/01/press-release-2021-lvmh-full-year-results.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets-finance.hermes.com/s3fs-public/node/pdf_file/2020-07/1595280621/hermesinternational-urd-2019-en.pdf


You are just amazing to do this @rainbowneko  

So back in 2019, when COVID hit, I know Chanel (or whatever “Chanel” really is) took out a loan for $500m that had all kinds of hair on it, most of it regarding sustainability pledges over the subsequent years. 

Not sure bags are scarce tho. Some are limited that’s for sure. But many if not most boutiques are rife with stock. They have basements and hidden closets (not talking about the ones we all rifle through when we go in) with bags even up to a decade old. I think there’s the appearance of scarcity, but not sure it’s backed up with what I’ve seen and heard. I do know they’ve cut way way way back on RTW tho.


----------



## TraceySH

periogirl28 said:


> And I thought it was to maintain loss making Couture and keep their Métiers  Maisons afloat. I'm so naive.  Shall be giving DH these reports to look at, as he has the right background to interpret and explain to me.


Will look forward to his feedback!!!


----------



## rainbowneko

TraceySH said:


> You are just amazing to do this @rainbowneko
> 
> So back in 2019, when COVID hit, I know Chanel (or whatever “Chanel” really is) took out a loan for $500m that had all kinds of hair on it, most of it regarding sustainability pledges over the subsequent years.
> 
> Not sure bags are scarce tho. Some are limited that’s for sure. But many if not most boutiques are rife with stock. They have basements and hidden closets (not talking about the ones we all rifle through when we go in) with bags even up to a decade old. I think there’s the appearance of scarcity, but not sure it’s backed up with what I’ve seen and heard. I do know they’ve cut way way way back on RTW tho.


You're welcome! Hope my insights/ information do help people who read this thread understand why Chanel keeps having price increases 2-3 times a year and the quality is like down the drain!! Also, Chanel is not fully transparent to their consumers which is why I decided to read and research it. Maybe this thread would wake some of the chanel fanatics that there is a change in chanel quality and should be aware of chanel's business decisions that might potentially affect the consumers. Since they are lowering the COGS eg. using lower grade materials/ poor leather coating = faster wear and tear = goods returns or send for repair (to me its quite distressing because I just sent my c19 caramel due to the shoddy workmanship on the front main dangling chain, and the after-sale associate told me to wait up to 6 months?!????) = i lost confidence in the brand and would not buy bags anytime soon

I am from Asia so the launch of the new season collection would be around 2-3 weeks later after the launch in US and Europe. Talking about seasonal bags, popular ones would either sell out during the launch day or be put up as not for sale (display only). Since I am not a vip or big spender, generally it would be slightly harder to get seasonal bags through walk-in on launch day. As for classic flaps, I heard there is a waitlist for that so it seems like my country is not well stocked! RTW I can't comment on it because I don't buy RTW!


----------



## gail13

That really low Cost of Goods stares you in the face. I think back to the newest designed 22 being the "It Bag" and can't help but think the cost of it is 25% of a flap or Gabrielle.  If Chanel wanted to design a great carefree everyday bag that lasts, they would have been more clear about its durability in verbiage. But this bag was a no brainer in terms of design and inexpensive materials, why not feature  it as the must have bag? 

We need to read between the lines.  Where is the R and D money going? Maybe into Beauty which is also very subjective/questionable but highly profitable.   I recall having a makeup session some years ago and the face cream was $500 plus. I was told it had flowers (camellia's grown on a Swiss hillside, near a convent or some such thing). Come on now.....  As I read thru Chanel's latest info, they claim to have designed a beautiful recycled glass bottle. Well thats all well and good but don't sell us beauty products that are nothing more than we can find at Walgreens and charge us $500 just to throw in a recycled glass bottle.


----------



## rainbowneko

gail13 said:


> That really low Cost of Goods stares you in the face. I think back to the newest designed 22 being the "It Bag" and can't help but think the cost of it is 25% of a flap or Gabrielle.  If Chanel wanted to design a great carefree everyday bag that lasts, they would have been more clear about its durability in verbiage. But this bag was a no brainer in terms of design and inexpensive materials, why not feature  it as the must have bag?
> 
> We need to read between the lines.  Where is the R and D money going? Maybe into Beauty which is also very subjective/questionable but highly profitable.   I recall having a makeup session some years ago and the face cream was $500 plus. I was told it had flowers (camellia's grown on a Swiss hillside, near a convent or some such thing). Come on now.....  As I read thru Chanel's latest info, they claim to have designed a beautiful recycled glass bottle. Well thats all well and good but don't sell us beauty products that are nothing more than we can find at Walgreens and charge us $500 just to throw in a recycled glass bottle.


Based on the low COGS, i feel RTW items eg. the iconic tweed jacket should be on the higher end of the COGS..
I'm not surprised if the new 22 bag COGS is less than 10% or even 5% of their sales price, and a portion of the gross profit goes to heavy marketing

As for R&D wise, I can't comment.

On the other hand, if there are any reformulations of the products, it's likely to cut production costs!

Chanel beauty... not really a fan of it (I prefer dior makeup haha), so i also can't comment on the quality of their products also. I think their latest N1 collection... totally a marketing hype (heavily marketed by social media influencers) to lure innocent consumers to get their hands on the products


----------



## Hanash

tulipfield said:


> Did anyone on this thread ever read Dana Thomas's book _Deluxe: How Luxury Lost Its Luster_ many years back?  In the book she reveals (probably for the first time for many, this was published back in 2007) how many luxury labels were outsourcing production to low-wage countries and finishing the products in Western Europe, using Chinese labor in Italian factories, skimping on materials, and utilizing assembly line production.  (She also gave background on the transformation of small ateliers into brands in stables owned by the LVMHs and Kerings of the world.)
> 
> One interesting point was that out of the major luxury houses, she singled out Hermes, Louboutin, and Chanel as among the few that were still sticking to honest production methods and high-quality materials.  So for a time I felt safe shopping Chanel, until I began to see rumors about their production methods and complaints about defects crop up on tpf maybe some 8 or so years ago.  (I also noticed more recently some issues with Louboutin heels.)
> 
> My question is, what changed so quickly between 2007, when everything was supposedly fine, and the mid-2010s when complaints began to crop up?  Thomas was pretty scathing in her assessments of other fashion houses with quality and production issues, so I assume she was being honest about her assessment of Chanel at the time.


I was about to recommend this book - it gives a real insight into branding and the decision making behind current practice. It’s well written and an easy read. Would be very complimentary to this thread as it talks about Coco chanel and the early days.


----------



## periogirl28

Hanash said:


> I was about to recommend this book - it gives a real insight into branding and the decision making behind current practice. It’s well written and an easy read. Would be very complimentary to this thread as it talks about Coco chanel and the early days.


Read and enjoyed it. Learnt a lot.


----------



## periogirl28

rainbowneko said:


> Based on the low COGS, i feel RTW items eg. the iconic tweed jacket should be on the higher end of the COGS..
> I'm not surprised if the new 22 bag COGS is less than 10% or even 5% of their sales price, and a portion of the gross profit goes to heavy marketing
> 
> As for R&D wise, I can't comment.
> 
> On the other hand, if there are any reformulations of the products, it's likely to cut production costs!
> 
> *Chanel beauty... not really a fan of it (I prefer dior makeup haha), so i also can't comment on the quality of their products also. I think their latest N1 collection... totally a marketing hype (heavily marketed by social media influencers) to lure innocent consumers to get their hands on the products *


Agree with bolded.


----------



## platanoparty

TraceySH said:


> You are just amazing to do this @rainbowneko
> 
> So back in 2019, when COVID hit, I know Chanel (or whatever “Chanel” really is) took out a loan for $500m that had all kinds of hair on it, most of it regarding sustainability pledges over the subsequent years.
> 
> Not sure bags are scarce tho. Some are limited that’s for sure. But many if not most boutiques are rife with stock. They have basements and hidden closets (not talking about the ones we all rifle through when we go in) with bags even up to a decade old. I think there’s the appearance of scarcity, but not sure it’s backed up with what I’ve seen and heard. I do know they’ve cut way way way back on RTW tho.


Tracey, do you happen to know why they’ve cut back so much in RTW? I ask because I’m a RTW client and it’s really annoying how hard it is to find any given piece, but then we always hear the story of Chanel - a fashion house not a bag house, they don’t value accessories only customers, etc. but at the end of the day they don’t even seem to prioritize the division they say they care most about!

As for the low COGs, I’m not surprised if this is also in RTW, not just because the cutting back but I’ve noticed recently that there is substantially more synthetic fabrics used in collections (for example a cardigan that should just be cotton or cashmere is now 100% poly)

Also there are too many bags that show up to boutiques damaged as many have said - but things that feel like happened in transit. Like noticeable holes in the leather of a flap etc. 

I will say the one place I will likely continue buying Chanel is the shoe category - I do find them really comfortable and well made. That is something I find surprising, but also makes me believe they have to be outsourcing them. I recently purchased lamb leather boots from 22B that have a buttery leather i haven’t seen on a bag or SLG in years. But I think if those are to go, and RTW continues a strange path, I may not interact with Chanel too much in the future.

Adding like Many others - thanks to the amazingly knowledgeable people here breaking down every piece of info. We are so lucky to have you as a resource on this forum!


----------



## Glitterbomb

TimelessBelle said:


> Knowing that Chanel owners’ wealth reaches $90 billion thanks to a $5-billion dividend last year while all of us who have contributed to that windfall are getting subpar, cost-cutting quality makes me sick to my stomach. It’s not even a love-hate relationship, it’s more like being in an abusive relationship knowingly but chose to stay on. However we are not helpless victims. Our choices and how we spent our money will speak volume from now on. If we can’t then we should be asking ‘has it gotten to be a form of addiction’? An addiction that is vulgar and self-destructive, considering the anguish, frustrations or anxiety our purchases have brought us.
> 
> I have chosen to move on. I have learnt to appreciate other finer things in life that do not have to come with a big price-tag. Thank you Chanel for making me realise that.



I have chosen to move on too. I actually sold half of my Chanel collection this year and I'm not interested in buying Chanel bags anymore. I don't think I have purchased anything from Chanel this year. I used to buy 5 - 30 Chanels a year. I owned 150 Chanel bags at one point. I would still be interested in RTW but after hearing the buttons are falling off....no thank you. I've moved onto YSL for quality RTW, which is a fraction of the price, more of a youthful style, and actually fits me so much better. 

Believe it or not, I have started using a suede Rebecca Minkoff (yes, seriously) as my casual everyday bag, because it has front and back pockets, a top zip and an adjustable, comfortable shoulder strap. It is holding up far better than any of my Chanel bags would if I were to use them daily (except apparently the 19 which is indestructible).


----------



## Liberté

@rainbowneko 

Thank you so much for posting and all the information and everyone else contributing!


----------



## sheeby

I've been wondering if the monthly limits were also inspired by the VC....while the corporate messaging focused on demand, product scarcity, resellers, boutique stock, channel control, buying across categories/loyalty, etc....the reality is that it's actually transforming a retail model to more of a subscription model with consistent revenue streams akin to SAAS businesses (VC influence perhaps). At a minimum, it gave Chanel the ability to shape when customers purchase leather goods and predictability in cash flow if shoppers conform. In my mind, TPF is a microcosm of Chanel's customer base and many of us active in this community are likely purchasing more leather goods than the average customer. It would be interesting to know what percentage of customers actually were and were not purchasing 12+ bags annually. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a segment that the limits are actually encouraging to spend more annually, perhaps a growth segment for the brand. Having said that, I do agree with @TraceySH that there seems to be more stock in the boutiques now than 2021, so if Chanel is being transparent about that motivator, the no shipping for a week is working to help with that.

Related to the OP's topic, I'm not sure if other's saw Maria Draganova's IG post last week when she shared damage on her Trendy from normal wear. Looks like the leather is cracking??? I think I may have stopped breathing for a second when I saw it as I'm a huge Trendy fan and a bit of a lambskin lover. She hasn't posted anything about Chanel's response, but it definitely took my breath away. I won't stop wearing any of my Trendys, it's one of my favorite Chanel styles and thought it had strong craftsmanship...but it certainly gave me pause as I haven't worn any of my lambskin bags much during the pandemic...and while lambskin is known to be delicate, I never considered "delicate" as not standing up to normal wear.


----------



## katlina

I am shocked to see the thread starter is STILL going on about This. why would u go out of ur way to speak bad about a brand? I find this all very fishy..


----------



## katlina

sheeby said:


> I've been wondering if the monthly limits were also inspired by the VC....while the corporate messaging focused on demand, product scarcity, resellers, boutique stock, channel control, buying across categories/loyalty, etc....the reality is that it's actually transforming a retail model to more of a subscription model with consistent revenue streams akin to SAAS businesses (VC influence perhaps). At a minimum, it gave Chanel the ability to shape when customers purchase leather goods and predictability in cash flow if shoppers conform. In my mind, TPF is a microcosm of Chanel's customer base and many of us active in this community are likely purchasing more leather goods than the average customer. It would be interesting to know what percentage of customers actually were and were not purchasing 12+ bags annually. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a segment that the limits are actually encouraging to spend more annually, perhaps a growth segment for the brand. Having said that, I do agree with @TraceySH that there seems to be more stock in the boutiques now than 2021, so if Chanel is being transparent about that motivator, the no shipping for a week is working to help with that.
> 
> Related to the OP's topic, I'm not sure if other's saw Maria Draganova's IG post last week when she shared damage on her Trendy from normal wear. Looks like the leather is cracking??? I think I may have stopped breathing for a second when I saw it as I'm a huge Trendy fan and a bit of a lambskin lover. She hasn't posted anything about Chanel's response, but it definitely took my breath away. I won't stop wearing any of my Trendys, it's one of my favorite Chanel styles and thought it had strong craftsmanship...but it certainly gave me pause as I haven't worn any of my lambskin bags much during the pandemic...and while lambskin is known to be delicate, I never considered "delicate" as not standing up to normal wear.
> 
> View attachment 5589891
> View attachment 5589892


This is absolute normal for any lambskin bag in a colour like this when worn with somth that rubs like a jeans jacket or whatnot. How IS chanel, or any other brand like hermes or Dior, supposed to make a lamb (!) skin (!) product durable? They can’t turn it into a fabric that withstands friction, and if they TRY and sell a coated version, ppl on here go out of their way to show and act shocked that the bag doesn’t absorb liquids etc. (Or ketchup or bleach).

Sorry but it’s just like they can’t get it right no matter what they do.

If they don’t coat the leather ppl scream how delicate it is.

If they DOntreat it to be more durable ppl scream that it behaves like fake leather (or is fake).

What do u want? ❤️❤️


----------



## Swanky

I can only speak with my personal experience, but my NM nor my boutique are heavily stocked. Of course there’s a little more now than a year ago jmo, as we were coming out of a global shut down. 

I don’t look into the financials of companies as it doesn’t really influence my purchases. My biggest purchases are my home, cars, furniture and jewelry, I’ve never considered looking into financials before.


----------



## TraceySH

katlina said:


> I am shocked to see the thread starter is STILL going on about This. why would u go out of ur way to speak bad about a brand? I find this all very fishy..


Lol. Consider it public service. If it irritates you, move on.


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> I can only speak with my personal experience, but my NM nor my boutique are heavily stocked. Of course there’s a little more now than a year ago jmo, as we were coming out of a global shut down.
> 
> I don’t look into the financials of companies as it doesn’t really influence my purchases. My biggest purchases are my home, cars, furniture and jewelry, I’ve never considered looking into financials before.


Right? This has been fascinating hasn’t it? I love hearing all these accomplished and intelligent people here dissecting financials.


----------



## Glitterbomb

katlina said:


> This is absolute normal for any lambskin bag in a colour like this when worn with somth that rubs like a jeans jacket or whatnot. How IS chanel, or any other brand like hermes or Dior, supposed to make a lamb (!) skin (!) product durable? They can’t turn it into a fabric that withstands friction, and if they TRY and sell a coated version, ppl on here go out of their way to show and act shocked that the bag doesn’t absorb liquids etc. (Or ketchup or bleach).
> 
> Sorry but it’s just like they can’t get it right no matter what they do.
> 
> If they don’t coat the leather ppl scream how delicate it is.
> 
> If they DOntreat it to be more durable ppl scream that it behaves like fake leather (or is fake).
> 
> What do u want? ❤️❤️



You're twisting it. People can complain how quickly a $6000 - $9000 lambskin bag wears...that has nothing to do with the brand also selling $6000 bags made of bonded leather. It is not real leather that was treated and therefore is more durable. The leather is peeling. Real leather doesn't peel. It is bonded leather. Do some research on what that is, and then ask yourself if you want to pay $6000 for the same quality leather you can buy for $50 at target.


----------



## EpiFanatic

Glitterbomb said:


> You're twisting it. People can complain how quickly a $6000 - $9000 lambskin bag wears...that has nothing to do with the brand also selling $6000 bags made of bonded leather. It is not real leather that was treated and therefore is more durable. The leather is peeling. Real leather doesn't peel. It is bonded leather. Do some research on what that is, and then ask yourself if you want to pay $6000 for the same quality leather you can buy for $50 at target.


I am not convinced that the 19 is bonded leather. If a leather expert that I trust  slits it open and shows me it is, then I will agree. And if it is, I will continue to enjoy the bag because I think it’s an awesome, beautiful, functional bag that fits my purposes, bonded leather or not.  Separate from that, this thread has been fascinating and informative, and I can appreciate the questions that have lead to more investigation of the financials to the extent they are available to try to understand and explain the change in the quality of Chanel’s products. I can understand why loyal long time clients of chanel (which I am not) would be curious and concerned about what chanel is doing with their revenues. As a CPA with an audit background, I am skeptical by nature so I hesitate to draw a conclusion without actual audited numbers of the subsidiaries to review. However I do have my suspicions and feel like I am more informed and can make better decisions than before reading this thread.


----------



## EpiFanatic

@rainbowneko thanks for the further clarification. I just clicked on some of your links and will examine in detail when I’m on my computer. Another thought occurred to me. Although obvious, the rampant price increases would have contributed to the huge increase in gross revenue without requiring COGS to have a proportional increase, explaining the COGS/gross revenue decrease from 2020 to 2021, this not necessarily indicating the use of lower quality raw materials or cost of construction per item. But again speculation given we don’t have the f/s by subsidiary. Would be awesome to see P/L by product line right?  I wonder what 2022 gross revenue will look like given their worldwide purchase limitation?  Off the top of your head you would think gross revenue would decrease but maybe the won’t be the case if it just allows the market to expand to buyers who had never purchased Chanel bags before, less bags per person but more “persons”, KWIM?  But all my comments are an exercise in speculation without actual financials.


----------



## Glitterbomb

EpiFanatic said:


> I am not convinced that the 19 is bonded leather. If a leather expert that I trust  slits it open and shows me it is, then I will agree. And if it is, I will continue to enjoy the bag because I think it’s an awesome, beautiful, functional bag that fits my purposes, bonded leather or not.  Separate from that, this thread has been fascinating and informative, and I can appreciate the questions that have lead to more investigation of the financials to the extent they are available to try to understand and explain the change in the quality of Chanel’s products. I can understand why loyal long time clients of chanel (which I am not) would be curious and concerned about what chanel is doing with their revenues. As a CPA with an audit background, I am skeptical by nature so I hesitate to draw a conclusion without actual audited numbers of the subsidiaries to review. However I do have my suspicions and feel like I am more informed and can make better decisions than before reading this thread.



I understand enjoying the bag still because you like it's functionality and appearance of it, but it wouldn't bother you that you paid $6000 for the worst leather quality you can get, from a brand that simply called it "lambskin leather" and misrepresented the product, knowing customers would assume it's full grain leather at that price? Leather that is closer to plastic than real leather, that has the smallest percentage of real leather in it only so it can still be called leather?

Personally, I don't like feeling lied to. It's one thing to buy a $6000 bag that you know is made of bonded leather...it's another entirely when they aren't disclosing it.


----------



## jcantu

katlina said:


> I am shocked to see the thread starter is STILL going on about This. why would u go out of ur way to speak bad about a brand? I find this all very fishy..


Yet here you are. You clicked on, read through it, and then decided to comment. 

You refuse to accept the empirical data of a decent amount of users based on what “Chanel says”. Does Chanel send you a paycheck to defend them? Chanel defenders are ALMOST as bad as Hermes defenders.


----------



## Ghettoe

rainbowneko said:


> In my opinion, as a new chanel consumer (because i only started my mini chanel bags collection a few years ago, didn't own any vintage pieces, not a vip client as well), after doing research and reading up on the financial statements uploaded by chanel limited, there are a few takeaways:
> 
> 1. General consumers may think that the entire chanel brand is only by chanel limited (at least this is what i am thinking until today I did research on it). The fact that Litor Ltd is staying away from the limelight is already a big red flag as we do not have any idea whether the company is solely owned by Wertheimer family or mix of people. In addition, Litor Ltd does not have any official information eg. types of business activities surfaced on capitalIQ as well. As a consumer, i feel abit "cheated"/ doubtful because the money spent on chanel items might not be greatly reinvested to improve the quality of the products or even raise production line (pretty sure they have sufficient funds to do so). If chanel really reinvested to improve the quality of the products, there will be lesser people complaining on social media platforms!! from time to time i saw users posting their chanel issues on chinese social media app...
> 
> 2. They are not transparent with the consumers with their financial statements because, on the chanel website, they only uploaded key highlights which are not really useful as compared to a full annual report. As a consumer, what kind of subsidiaries, joint ventures etc they are having as well because technically it helps to reduce production costs, and when Chanel said they increase prices for price harmonisation is really bs...........
> 
> 3. They preach a lot on sustainability but they are churning out so many "fast-fashion paced" products... does it even make sense? I am not surprised if they are going to have 12 collections in a year in the near future!!



I work in finance and I might be the only one going eh, this is pretty standard. I saw a post here about inventory being 24 and the user being appalled, but without the notes to the financial statement, these are pretty useless numbers. If financial statements told us everything, I would not bother with the notes, MD&A or speaking to management. We don't even know how Chanel accounts for inventory for us to be appalled by that number. 

Like your point number 2 is the most standard thing for a private company. I cover a porftfolio of private companies and a huge part of being private is you aren't required to disclose anything. Yes, you have the audited financials but those aren't public. What's the point of being a private company if you have to disclose your business? 

I've not seen any mention of Capex here, or their working capital which would tell you significantly more than inventory.

Things like M&A are fairly common too. There could be so many reasons for M&A. It can be to penetrate certain geographies, or in the case of chanel, it would make sense for them to not only acquire smaller fashion houses, but leather tanneries, etc Without speaking to a company or having access to things like the notes or their MD&A, these guesses are pretty wild.


----------



## EpiFanatic

Glitterbomb said:


> I understand enjoying the bag still because you like it's functionality and appearance of it, but it wouldn't bother you that you paid $6000 for the worst leather quality you can get, from a brand that simply called it "lambskin leather" and misrepresented the product, knowing customers would assume it's full grain leather at that price? Leather that is closer to plastic than real leather, that has the smallest percentage of real leather in it only so it can still be called leather?
> 
> Personally, I don't like feeling lied to. It's one thing to buy a $6000 bag that you know is made of bonded leather...it's another entirely when they aren't disclosing it.


First off, I am not convinced that it isn’t non-bonded leather. If it isn’t, I bought it without asking whether it was bonded leather. Maybe that’s a lesson for me, if it matters enough to me. I can’t be a hypocrite about saying, “well I spent this much money, the materials are not sufficiently high quality”. I have been buying LV canvas for years spending thousands of dollars (worth minimal leather) on canvas!  Man made materials!  I bought it knowingly because it served my purpose and the bag as a whole met my criteria, which I won’t go into. And I do not have a single regret for spending thousands on a canvas bag that I love. I am not buying Chanel only for the materials. I love the look and feel and functionality, which regardless of material the Chanel 19 delivers for me. So I’m not angry. Knowing more about what Chanel is spending their profits on may be a different story, for me.


----------



## EpiFanatic

Ghettoe said:


> I work in finance and I might be the only one going eh, this is pretty standard. I saw a post here about inventory being 24 and the user being appalled, but without the notes to the financial statement, these are pretty useless numbers. If financial statements told us everything, I would not bother with the notes, MD&A or speaking to management. We don't even know how Chanel accounts for inventory for us to be appalled by that number.
> 
> Like your point number 2 is the most standard thing for a private company. I cover a porftfolio of private companies and a huge part of being private is you aren't required to disclose anything. Yes, you have the audited financials but those aren't public. What's the point of being a private company if you have to disclose your business?
> 
> I've not seen any mention of Capex here, or their working capital which would tell you significantly more than inventory.
> 
> Things like M&A are fairly common too. There could be so many reasons for M&A. It can be to penetrate certain geographies, or in the case of chanel, it would make sense for them to not only acquire smaller fashion houses, but leather tanneries, etc Without speaking to a company or having access to things like the notes or their MD&A, these guesses are pretty wild.


I was wondering the exact same thing about inventory. And yeah, no footnotes suck. But again we don’t even have the financials so I could not judge with confidence.


----------



## Glitterbomb

EpiFanatic said:


> First off, I am not convinced that it isn’t non-bonded leather. If it isn’t, I bought it without asking whether it was bonded leather. Maybe that’s a lesson for me, if it matters enough to me. I can’t be a hypocrite about saying, “well I spent this much money, the materials are not sufficiently high quality”. I have been buying LV canvas for years spending thousands of dollars (worth minimal leather) on canvas!  Man made materials!  I bought it knowingly because it served my purpose and the bag as a whole met my criteria, which I won’t go into. And I do not have a single regret for spending thousands on a canvas bag that I love. I am not buying Chanel only for the materials. I love the look and feel and functionality, which regardless of material the Chanel 19 delivers for me. So I’m not angry. Knowing more about Chanel’s corporate practices tho is a different story.



I feel very differently. Chanel using bonded leather without disclosing it isn't the same as LV making bags with canvas. LV discloses their bags are made with that material. A $6000 - $9000 leather bag should be made with full grain, high quality leather. It is just shocking to me that some really do not care if Chanel is making some (or all) of their bags with the cheapest quality leather possible to maximize their profits.


----------



## EpiFanatic

katlina said:


> This is absolute normal for any lambskin bag in a colour like this when worn with somth that rubs like a jeans jacket or whatnot. How IS chanel, or any other brand like hermes or Dior, supposed to make a lamb (!) skin (!) product durable? They can’t turn it into a fabric that withstands friction, and if they TRY and sell a coated version, ppl on here go out of their way to show and act shocked that the bag doesn’t absorb liquids etc. (Or ketchup or bleach).
> 
> Sorry but it’s just like they can’t get it right no matter what they do.
> 
> If they don’t coat the leather ppl scream how delicate it is.
> 
> If they DOntreat it to be more durable ppl scream that it behaves like fake leather (or is fake).
> 
> What do u want? ❤️❤️


I can understand this viewpoint. Different people buy Chanel for different reasons. And the long time loyal Chanel clients do want more information and more answers given their personal experience with Chanel. Even as a Chanel newbie I’m interested. And generally speaking many more people are interested in the origins of materials and in business practices.  So I totally understand the desire for transparency.


----------



## EpiFanatic

Glitterbomb said:


> I feel very differently. Chanel using bonded leather without disclosing it isn't the same as LV making bags with canvas. LV discloses their bags are made with that material. A $6000 - $9000 leather bag should be made with full grain, high quality leather. It is just shocking to me that some really do not care if Chanel is making some (or all) of their bags with the cheapest quality leather possible to maximize their profits.


You asked me if I would and I answered you honestly. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and you should do what you need to do given what you feel and believe, and I won’t judge you for it. I’m sorry you feel the need to judge me, but again this is a public forum and you entitled to that opinion too.


----------



## Glitterbomb

EpiFanatic said:


> You asked me if I would and I answered you honestly. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and you should do what you need to do given what you feel and believe, and I won’t judge you for it. I’m sorry you feel the need to judge me, but again this is a public forum and you entitled to that opinion too.



I'm not judging you at all. Although I respect your viewpoint and opinion, I just personally find it shocking.


----------



## EpiFanatic

Glitterbomb said:


> I'm not judging you at all. Although I respect your viewpoint and opinion, I just personally find it shocking.


Ok.


----------



## Glitterbomb

I loved Chanel (I owned 150 bags and countless amount of RTW, shoes, jewelry, etc at the peak of my collection) and it deeply saddens me to see what has happened to the brand I loved. I know many people still love this brand, but I just don't anymore. My love for Chanel has been killed by overly greedy and insensitive price increases while quality diminishes at a rapid pace. RTW with buttons commonly falling off, that you have to go out of your way to request to be reinforced while purchasing? Chanel bags known for crooked flaps, popped stitches, loose threads, straps that literally fall OFF the bag, and now likely bonded leather that peels within 30 minutes of use? It's not okay to pay $6000 - $9000 for ****. The net worth of the Wertheimers is $90 billion. We deserve better.

I remember the good ol' days of buying a $4900 medium classic flap in 2016...I never had to do my own quality control. To think the same bag retails today for $8800, nearly double in just six years, while the quality is now so horrible is repulsive to me.


----------



## ItsPurseonal

Ghettoe said:


> I work in finance and I might be the only one going eh, this is pretty standard.





Ghettoe said:


> Without speaking to a company or having access to things like the notes or their MD&A, these guesses are pretty wild.


You're not the only one - I'm definitely not discounting the fact that quality control is hugely problematic (and seems to have declined drastically), but there's only so much you can gain from these numbers - ESPECIALLY when trying to zero in on fashion goods because so much of their bottom line is presumably influenced by their beauty segment. I would have actually been surprised if their COGS scaled at the same rate as their sales. 

Again, this is not to say that there (very well) might be something going on with decreasing quality of raw materials/production, but I wouldn't draw that conclusion just from seeing these numbers.


----------



## gail13

Glitterbomb said:


> I loved Chanel (I owned 150 bags and countless amount of RTW, shoes, jewelry, etc at the peak of my collection) and it deeply saddens me to see what has happened to the brand I loved. I know many people still love this brand, but I just don't anymore. My love for Chanel has been killed by overly greedy and insensitive price increases while quality diminishes at a rapid pace. RTW with buttons commonly falling off, that you have to go out of your way to request to be reinforced while purchasing? Chanel bags known for crooked flaps, popped stitches, loose threads, straps that literally fall OFF the bag, and now likely bonded leather that peels within 30 minutes of use? It's not okay to pay $6000 - $9000 for ****. The net worth of the Wertheimers is $90 billion. We deserve better.
> 
> I remember the good ol' days of buying a $4900 medium classic flap in 2016...I never had to do my own quality control. To think the same bag retails today for $8800, nearly double in just six years, while the quality is now so horrible is repulsive to me


All of us have reasons we purchase luxury; in this case Chanel, and we might not know what draws us. Chanel has very strong brand recognition and they use the Coco story to strengthen it. The more I read about Chanel, the more I realize it was Karl Lagerfeld not Coco, and now that he is gone, Im not sure who they are anymore.

I also am a long time customer with a large collection and I bought because of quality and styles that were part of a designed collection. There was a reason not to grab the It Bag from a contemporary line.  Knowing that my bag has a surface protectant on it is one thing, but knowing its not real high quality leather at these prices is absurd.   Has anyone else noticed that many of the SA's rarely purchase items from these collections? They do not get many discounts these days and none on classics, but I find it interesting that even the long time SA's rarely have more than a few pieces.


----------



## Ghettoe

ItsPurseonal said:


> You're not the only one - I'm definitely not discounting the fact that quality control is hugely problematic (and seems to have declined drastically), but there's only so much you can gain from these numbers - ESPECIALLY when trying to zero in on fashion goods because so much of their bottom line is presumably influenced by their beauty segment. I would have actually been surprised if their COGS scaled at the same rate as their sales.
> 
> Again, this is not to say that there (very well) might be something going on with decreasing quality of raw materials/production, but I wouldn't draw that conclusion just from seeing these numbers.



Along with this, they have so many different segments, who even knows what's impacting the COGS more? Why is everyone so sure it's handbags?


----------



## ntntgo

Ghettoe said:


> Along with this, they have so many different segments, who even knows what's impacting the COGS more? Why is everyone so sure it's handbags?



I don’t thing those of us talking about the finances are talking strictly about bags & SLGs. If you read back, you’ll see that those of us with a significant background in co-creation, which includes annual reports, those of us who have to file annual reports for our own companies & are long time high end clients, are not strictly addressing handbags. I’d say leather goods but that would be an over statement. 

Additionally, we are not addressing strictly Chanel Ltd as they are only a small percentage of the Mousse Partners portfolio. 

This next part is not directed toward anyone or specific groups of people. 

Let’s all take it down a notch and treat each other with respect as adults should (I’m assuming everyone is an adult here, although some of the comments lead me to believe otherwise). Some here just happen to know more than others. 

This is a thread that started as one person @TraceySH having a peeling problem. It has morphed to a thread of information sharing. I know that I have learned a lot from others here and I am humble enough to admit it, regardless of what I do for a living or the size of my collection. 

There’s absolutely no need to treat each other disrespectfully. 

Lastly, there is nothing in this thread that puts TPF in a position to be warned or receive anything in writing from Chanel, Mousse or Litor regarding the information posted here. There is no trademark infringement and the Wertheimers are savvy enough to know that there is no basis for a libel suit. Not to mention that would open Pandora’s Box that I’m fairly certain they would not want. Therefore, this thread should continue as it is extremely informative. 

Carry on.


----------



## Swanky

Reminder that we require respectful posts. Disagree all you want but do not get personal or attack members.  Discuss the topic, not a member.

No one has to justify why they buy or don't buy, this thread may not change everyone's minds, which is fine! 
It won't change my shopping habits personally.  I don't just assume that every post online is completely accurate, I use my best judgement and make my own decisions.  I've had a great experience with Chanel over the past nearly 20 years, I've had zero quality issues and have always had great service.  
YMMV. . .  but everyone does have to respect other's opinions!
Choose what's best for YOU!


----------



## rainbowneko

EpiFanatic said:


> @rainbowneko thanks for the further clarification. I just clicked on some of your links and will examine in detail when I’m on my computer. Another thought occurred to me. Although obvious, the rampant price increases would have contributed to the huge increase in gross revenue without requiring COGS to have a proportional increase, explaining the COGS/gross revenue decrease from 2020 to 2021, this not necessarily indicating the use of lower quality raw materials or cost of construction per item. But again speculation given we don’t have the f/s by subsidiary. Would be awesome to see P/L by product line right?  I wonder what 2022 gross revenue will look like given their worldwide purchase limitation?  Off the top of your head you would think gross revenue would decrease but maybe the won’t be the case if it just allows the market to expand to buyers who had never purchased Chanel bags before, less bags per person but more “persons”, KWIM?  But all my comments are an exercise in speculation without actual financials.


Yes, with regards to the COGS decrease from 2020 to 2021, might indicate potential cost-cutting measures. Using the other 2 companies' COGS as a reference, their COGS were closer to 30%, and Chanel's COGS was slightly under 20%, which was a bit concerning... Understand that not all chanel items' COGS were under 20% because the COGS in the f/s is the aggregate of all chanel lines eg rtw, beauty, bags, etc. Only the management accountants of chanel would know the actual COGS for each item they produced hahahaha.

I am also curious to know their 2022 gross revenue but i feel it would increase due to extremely high demand in Asia esp. mainland china customers!!


----------



## rainbowneko

Ghettoe said:


> I work in finance and I might be the only one going eh, this is pretty standard. I saw a post here about inventory being 24 and the user being appalled, but without the notes to the financial statement, these are pretty useless numbers. If financial statements told us everything, I would not bother with the notes, MD&A or speaking to management. We don't even know how Chanel accounts for inventory for us to be appalled by that number.
> 
> Like your point number 2 is the most standard thing for a private company. I cover a porftfolio of private companies and a huge part of being private is you aren't required to disclose anything. Yes, you have the audited financials but those aren't public. What's the point of being a private company if you have to disclose your business?
> 
> I've not seen any mention of Capex here, or their working capital which would tell you significantly more than inventory.
> 
> Things like M&A are fairly common too. There could be so many reasons for M&A. It can be to penetrate certain geographies, or in the case of chanel, it would make sense for them to not only acquire smaller fashion houses, but leather tanneries, etc Without speaking to a company or having access to things like the notes or their MD&A, these guesses are pretty wild.


Understood that chanel is a private company but don't you get disappointed as a consumer that you found out there are so many shady business decisions made by chanel like rampant price increases? like you spent thousands of dollars on bags, RTW, to realise your money doesn't heavily reinvest back to the company for a better good eg. better quality products, increase production lines so everyone won't be over panicking if they are unable to secure their desired seasonal items.

Note: i do not have any experience or understand the RTW price increase but here's my thought on classic flaps

Since the future price increases on classic flaps might or already surpassed some of the hermes products, and i don't think for price increases would actually lead them to be more exclusive in brand image. To me, I feel they are viewing classic flaps as infinite cash cow, trying to milk classic flaps' profits until the demand or trend to have that bag to die down


----------



## rainbowneko

EpiFanatic said:


> First off, I am not convinced that it isn’t non-bonded leather. If it isn’t, I bought it without asking whether it was bonded leather. Maybe that’s a lesson for me, if it matters enough to me. I can’t be a hypocrite about saying, “well I spent this much money, the materials are not sufficiently high quality”. I have been buying LV canvas for years spending thousands of dollars (worth minimal leather) on canvas!  Man made materials!  I bought it knowingly because it served my purpose and the bag as a whole met my criteria, which I won’t go into. And I do not have a single regret for spending thousands on a canvas bag that I love. I am not buying Chanel only for the materials. I love the look and feel and functionality, which regardless of material the Chanel 19 delivers for me. So I’m not angry. Knowing more about what Chanel is spending their profits on may be a different story, for me.


agree!!! one thing that i would want to raise in this thread other than the financials is transparency to the customers


----------



## rainbowneko

Ghettoe said:


> Along with this, they have so many different segments, who even knows what's impacting the COGS more? Why is everyone so sure it's handbags?


COGS in the financials are made up of different lines in chanel from beauty to RTW, and the amount was being aggregated. if u note in my excel, you realised chanel has lesser COGS as compared to other luxury companies, which is already a red flag on how much they are profiting milking from consumers. nobody knows unless you're the management accountant that in charge of approving budgets, to know what's cogs for each item relative to their sales price


----------



## fice16

Glitterbomb said:


> I loved Chanel (I owned 150 bags and countless amount of RTW, shoes, jewelry, etc at the peak of my collection) and it deeply saddens me to see what has happened to the brand I loved. I know many people still love this brand, but I just don't anymore. My love for Chanel has been killed by overly greedy and insensitive price increases while quality diminishes at a rapid pace. *RTW with buttons commonly falling off, that you have to go out of your way to request to be reinforced while purchasing? *Chanel bags known for crooked flaps, popped stitches, loose threads, straps that literally fall OFF the bag, and now likely bonded leather that peels within 30 minutes of use? It's not okay to pay $6000 - $9000 for ****. The net worth of the Wertheimers is $90 billion. We deserve better.
> 
> I remember the good ol' days of buying a $4900 medium classic flap in 2016...I never had to do my own quality control. To think the same bag retails today for $8800, nearly double in just six years, while the quality is now so horrible is repulsive to me.



Talking about the Chanel RTW with buttons commonly falling off...I bought the pink cardigan dress from 2021 Resort collection, wore it maybe 3-4 times, and *had 2 buttons *that fell off and they were nowhere to be found.   A while ago, I mentioned in the Chanel RTW thread that Chanel seems to be using cheaper fabric (synthetic or cotton) to replace the more expensive fabric materials such as wool and cashmere in many of their RTWs as compared to 5-10+ years ago.  Unfortunately, I also start to see Dior is doing the same thing since the COVID pandemic started (they are producing more cotton-fabric RTWs as compared to wool/cashemere/silk-fabric RTWs)...it is just sad that these luxury brands seem to be using less premium materials in their goods nowadays..

I still buy some of these designers items only because I truly love some of the designs..


----------



## gail13

Im curious about this: 

Chanel is held by Litor Ltd., registered in the Cayman Islands. Mousse Partners was folded into Litor in December, according to a legal notice in the Cayman Islands Gazette.


----------



## gail13

fice16 said:


> Talking about the Chanel RTW with buttons commonly falling off...I bought the pink cardigan dress from 2021 Resort collection, wore it maybe 3-4 times, and *had 2 buttons *that fell off and they were nowhere to be found.   A while ago, I mentioned in the Chanel RTW thread that Chanel seems to be using cheaper fabric (synthetic or cotton) to replace the more expensive fabric materials such as wool and cashmere in many of their RTWs as compared to 5-10+ years ago.  Unfortunately, I also start to see Dior is doing the same thing since the COVID pandemic started (they are producing more cotton-fabric RTWs as compared to wool/cashemere/silk-fabric RTWs)...it is just sad that these luxury brands seem to be using less premium materials in their goods nowadays..
> 
> I still buy some of these designers items only because I truly love some of the designs..


I think we are going to start seeing new materials that aren't what we are used to, in the name of sustainability.


----------



## PurseCloset

Glitterbomb said:


> You're twisting it. People can complain how quickly a $6000 - $9000 lambskin bag wears...that has nothing to do with the brand also selling $6000 bags made of bonded leather. It is not real leather that was treated and therefore is more durable. The leather is peeling. Real leather doesn't peel. It is bonded leather. Do some research on what that is, and then ask yourself if you want to pay $6000 for the same quality leather you can buy for $50 at target.





rainbowneko said:


> You're welcome! Hope my insights/ information do help people who read this thread understand why Chanel keeps having price increases 2-3 times a year and the quality is like down the drain!! Also, Chanel is not fully transparent to their consumers which is why I decided to read and research it. Maybe this thread would wake some of the chanel fanatics that there is a change in chanel quality and should be aware of chanel's business decisions that might potentially affect the consumers. Since they are lowering the COGS eg. using lower grade materials/ poor leather coating = faster wear and tear = goods returns or send for repair (to me its quite distressing because I just sent my c19 caramel due to the shoddy workmanship on the front main dangling chain, and the after-sale associate told me to wait up to 6 months?!????) = i lost confidence in the brand and would not buy bags anytime soon
> 
> I am from Asia so the launch of the new season collection would be around 2-3 weeks later after the launch in US and Europe. Talking about seasonal bags, popular ones would either sell out during the launch day or be put up as not for sale (display only). Since I am not a vip or big spender, generally it would be slightly harder to get seasonal bags through walk-in on launch day. As for classic flaps, I heard there is a waitlist for that so it seems like my country is not well stocked! RTW I can't comment on it because I don't buy RTW!


Thanks for all the insights rainbowneko on the ongoings with Chanel. No wonder despite the steep price increases the quality has not improved in anyway.

Wat happened to your c19 caramel the chain strap ? (noticed that there are some black stains in between each of the connnecting  antique gold hardware chain)  Which series was this? Beginning to see very huge differences in leather quality of c19 (especially the popular colours like caramel) over the seasons actually. I am also done with Chanel too. Recent ones quality issues has become so bad it's surfacing across all product lines .


----------



## ntntgo

I was thinking, since Artbag moved to South Florida, I’m considering  buying a 22, Lord knows the boutiques here are full of them, and taking one of my 19s that isn’t currently at Chanel’s outsourced repair shops up north and having them take them apart while I film it. 

Oh and for everyone that thinks their bags are going to Paris for repair, sorry to disappoint. They get checked in through their repair department in New Jersey then go to a place whom I don’t know if I can name as I’m not sure if they have an NDA or not. Bags that come in to the boutiques before they’re sold and are damaged go directly to their outsourced US repair company without having to be checked in through NJ. 

I thought everyone knew this in the US but I’ve seen a lot of people saying that their bag was sent to Paris.  Why would anyone think that? Maybe I misunderstood. 

I know Chanel has a repair place in the UK and one in China. Not sure where bags in the ME & Africa go but I’m sure they’ve got places there as well. I’m assuming that all of APAC goes to the shop in China. Maybe someone in this thread that’s located in greater AP knows for sure. 

@TraceySH, do you want to ship your 19 or 22 to Artbag and I’ll make the arrangements? I’m willing to use one of my 19s but out of the 11 I had, I sold the 3 newest ones. A 22 I’d have to go buy but I’m willing to do it. 

Thoughts anyone? Do we want to see the most prestigious Hermes repair shop in the US take apart a Chanel?


----------



## TraceySH

ntntgo said:


> I was thinking, since Artbag moved to South Florida, I’m considering  buying a 22, Lord knows the boutiques here are full of them, and taking one of my 19s that isn’t currently at Chanel’s outsourced repair shops up north and having them take them apart while I film it.
> 
> Oh and for everyone that thinks their bags are going to Paris for repair, sorry to disappoint. They get checked in through their repair department in New Jersey then go to a place whom I don’t know if I can name as I’m not sure if they have an NDA or not. Bags that come in to the boutiques before they’re sold and are damaged go directly to their outsourced US repair company without having to be checked in through NJ.
> 
> I thought everyone knew this in the US but I’ve seen a lot of people saying that their bag was sent to Paris.  Why would anyone think that? Maybe I misunderstood.
> 
> I know Chanel has a repair place in the UK and one in China. Not sure where bags in the ME & Africa go but I’m sure they’ve got places there as well. I’m assuming that all of APAC goes to the shop in China. Maybe someone in this thread that’s located in greater AP knows for sure.
> 
> @TraceySH, do you want to ship your 19 or 22 to Artbag and I’ll make the arrangements? I’m willing to use one of my 19s but out of the 11 I had, I sold the 3 newest ones. A 22 I’d have to go buy but I’m willing to do it.
> 
> Thoughts anyone? Do we want to see the most prestigious Hermes repair shop in the US take apart a Chanel?


I will send you my beige one that smells like chemicals. I can't use it. It's embarrassing, the smell. Shall we donate it to science?


----------



## gail13

ntntgo said:


> I thought everyone knew this in the US but I’ve seen a lot of people saying that their bag was sent to Paris. Why would anyone think that? Maybe I misunderstood.


Because Chanel uses that as another story to make you feel that you are getting special attention, and to explain the inhumanely long wait time.  It's the Savoir Faire.


----------



## waterlily112

Considering how Chanel boldly advise their clients to just deal with their defective bags, I'm not surprised the repair service is being outsourced to 3rd party companies that probably couldn't care less about quality control. Just like the SA once told me that my costume earrings with rhinestones falling off that they'll be sent to Paris for repair. I was skeptical and after waited for several months, I was told that they lost my earrings, they're probably still sitting in one of the factories in China.


----------



## PurseCloset

ntntgo said:


> I was thinking, since Artbag moved to South Florida, I’m considering  buying a 22, Lord knows the boutiques here are full of them, and taking one of my 19s that isn’t currently at Chanel’s outsourced repair shops up north and having them take them apart while I film it.
> 
> Oh and for everyone that thinks their bags are going to Paris for repair, sorry to disappoint. They get checked in through their repair department in New Jersey then go to a place whom I don’t know if I can name as I’m not sure if they have an NDA or not. Bags that come in to the boutiques before they’re sold and are damaged go directly to their outsourced US repair company without having to be checked in through NJ.
> 
> I thought everyone knew this in the US but I’ve seen a lot of people saying that their bag was sent to Paris.  Why would anyone think that? Maybe I misunderstood.
> 
> I know Chanel has a repair place in the UK and one in China. Not sure where bags in the ME & Africa go but I’m sure they’ve got places there as well. I’m assuming that all of APAC goes to the shop in China. Maybe someone in this thread that’s located in greater AP knows for sure.
> 
> @TraceySH, do you want to ship your 19 or 22 to Artbag and I’ll make the arrangements? I’m willing to use one of my 19s but out of the 11 I had, I sold the 3 newest ones. A 22 I’d have to go buy but I’m willing to do it.
> 
> Thoughts anyone? Do we want to see the most prestigious Hermes repair shop in the US take apart a Chanel?


Over here in Sg , it's stated that defective hardware issues will be sent to Paris and the wait will be up until 6 months but that is only upon assessment if the bag should be sent to Paris otherwise the bags will be locally repaired if minor issues and the wait can be anything up to a month


----------



## PurseCloset

ntntgo said:


> Nice job! I have access to Capital IQ but it is tiered based & customized based on geo & vertical.
> Based on reading what you downloaded, that looks like it’s strictly the UK database, correct?
> 
> The point that stands out so prominently to me is the inventory turnover of 24. Seriously??? 24??? That certainly explains the quality deficiency now doesn’t it?
> 
> Do you have FactSet? Or preferably a Bloomberg account? It would be interesting to compare.
> 
> Regardless, now that Chanel via Mousse has been set up as a DBA of Litor which is hmmmm…set up in the Caymans, well that speaks volumes.
> 
> Thank you for delving deeper.
> 
> ETA: Your subsequent post that went up as I was writing makes all of us look like sheep now. Thank you for doing the due diligence.


This is all very interesting. Need some financial education here

Can explain what would be a desired and healthy turnover inventory is, if not 24? 

Just googled this definition,"The turnover ratio is derived from a mathematical calculation, where the cost of goods sold is divided by the average inventory for the same period. *A higher ratio is more desirable than a low one* as a high ratio tends to point to strong sales."


----------



## PurseCloset

TraceySH said:


> I will send you my beige one that smells like chemicals. I can't use it. It's embarrassing, the smell. Shall we donate it to science?
> 
> My black small classic flap purchased in June smelt that way too especially the interior and i thought it's the norm . Got it frm hongkong boutique. where abouts is the beige from?


----------



## PurseCloset

ntntgo said:


> Thank you. They are stealthy aren’t they? I think I speak for everyone here in asking those of you in countries that don’t use the Euro in EU countries to chime in as well.
> The price increase in the UK is quite telling as to where the Wertheimers are headed.


Singapore classic flap medium hasnt changed yet since Nov, still at SGD 13,190 (including local tax) which works out to be about USD 9,620 although i hear Japan and South Korea has increased theirs .


----------



## ntntgo

PurseCloset said:


> This is all very interesting. Need some financial education here
> 
> Can explain what would be a desired and healthy turnover inventory is, if not 24?
> 
> Just googled this definition,"The turnover ratio is derived from a mathematical calculation, where the cost of goods sold is divided by the average inventory for the same period. *A higher ratio is more desirable than a low one* as a high ratio tends to point to strong sales."



My point exactly. 24 is insane. That’s how fast they’re turning over inventory & replacing it. Yet people think it’s being hand made????

The average inventory turnover rate for Mercedes Benz is 8. So Chanel is cranking out products at a rate that is over 3 times what Mercedes Benz is. Hermes for 2021 was 1.97. 

The only people that benefit from that high of a turnover rate is the investors. 

What I’d like to see that I can’t find is Chanel’s inventory days on hand. 

If anyone can find that, I’d love to know because if their IDOH is low and their turnover rate is high, plunge in quality across the brand makes sense. It also means they’re back in “We’re for sale” mode.


----------



## 880

rainbowneko said:


> Understood that chanel is a private company but don't you get disappointed as a consumer that you found out there are so many shady business decisions made by chanel like rampant price increases? like you spent thousands of dollars on bags, RTW, to realise your money doesn't heavily reinvest back to the company for a better good eg. better quality products, increase production lines so everyone won't be over panicking if they are unable to secure their desired seasonal items.


I think that rampant price increases and lack of transparency are rampant throughout fashion, especially premier fashion houses that are big business (as opposed to luxury). At this point for example, Dior RTW is skyrocketing in price but of flimsy construction. In fact, some chanel items seem better made and better value Lol. The disgruntled  chanel customer always has the option to walk away and not to purchase leather goods. Many of us primarily buy bags from Hermes or another brand nowadays. And, I say this having had good luck with the many chanel bags I’ve purchased from the boutique throughout the years.


----------



## TraceySH

@PurseCloset I’m in the US!


----------



## PurseCloset

880 said:


> I think that rampant price increases and lack of transparency are rampant throughout fashion, especially premier fashion houses that are big business (as opposed to luxury). At this point for example, Dior RTW is skyrocketing in price but of flimsy construction. In fact, some chanel items seem better made and better value Lol. The disgruntled  chanel customer always has the option to walk away and not to purchase leather goods. Many of us primarily buy bags from Hermes or another brand nowadays. And, I say this having had good luck with the many chanel bags I’ve purchased from the boutique throughout the years.


Thanks for that perspective. Can I ask if u might be a VIP status at Chanel , where u get to the first dips of the offerings on launch day.

I noticed where I m located at which is Sg, I do get better quality Chanel bags from resellers, bags that quickly flew off the shelves but showed up at resellers platform literally the next day.  Usually these resellers have VIP status coz of the volume they buy n hence priorities given to the first dipd


----------



## PurseCloset

880 said:


> I think that rampant price increases and lack of transparency are rampant throughout fashion, especially premier fashion houses that are big business (as opposed to luxury). At this point for example, Dior RTW is skyrocketing in price but of flimsy construction. In fact, some chanel items seem better made and better value Lol. The disgruntled  chanel customer always has the option to walk away and not to purchase leather goods. Many of us primarily buy bags from Hermes or another brand nowadays. And, I say this having had good luck with the many chanel bags I’ve purchased from the boutique throughout the years.


The good old adage of what u get is what u paid for certainly runs contrary to where Chanel bags are concerned n their gravity defying prices. That's ethically n morally wrong but if the company seeks to max profits above all else then I think the customer deserves better treatment elsewhere n word must spread to raise awareness on this. Thank goodness there r alternatives,  toying of the Hermes journey recently


----------



## ntntgo

TraceySH said:


> I will send you my beige one that smells like chemicals. I can't use it. It's embarrassing, the smell. Shall we donate it to science?


 
Let’s do it. I’ll call Artbag today. They have been the foremost Hermes repair shop for over 90 years. So I want to make sure they’ll allow me to film them taking it apart & they’ll have to sign a release. 
I’ll DM you after I speak to them this morning.


----------



## Tina1010

ntntgo said:


> I was thinking, since Artbag moved to South Florida, I’m considering  buying a 22, Lord knows the boutiques here are full of them, and taking one of my 19s that isn’t currently at Chanel’s outsourced repair shops up north and having them take them apart while I film it.
> 
> Oh and for everyone that thinks their bags are going to Paris for repair, sorry to disappoint. They get checked in through their repair department in New Jersey then go to a place whom I don’t know if I can name as I’m not sure if they have an NDA or not. Bags that come in to the boutiques before they’re sold and are damaged go directly to their outsourced US repair company without having to be checked in through NJ.
> 
> I thought everyone knew this in the US but I’ve seen a lot of people saying that their bag was sent to Paris.  Why would anyone think that? Maybe I misunderstood.
> 
> I know Chanel has a repair place in the UK and one in China. Not sure where bags in the ME & Africa go but I’m sure they’ve got places there as well. I’m assuming that all of APAC goes to the shop in China. Maybe someone in this thread that’s located in greater AP knows for sure.
> 
> @TraceySH, do you want to ship your 19 or 22 to Artbag and I’ll make the arrangements? I’m willing to use one of my 19s but out of the 11 I had, I sold the 3 newest ones. A 22 I’d have to go buy but I’m willing to do it.
> 
> Thoughts anyone? Do we want to see the most prestigious Hermes repair shop in the US take apart a Chanel?



This is new information for me, as I had multiple SA's tell me this year as I've just started purchasing Chanel that the bags are sent for repairs to Paris as part of the 5 year warranty program.  Either they don't know the truth themselves or they lied to me. I had to send a bag into LV for repair and at least the mgr there was honest that the bag will be repaired in California.


----------



## PurseCloset

TraceySH said:


> Alright, for our next round we have BBQ sauce (I don't have any ketchup). Poured on, smeared in, put under hot water, wiped off.
> 
> View attachment 5577456
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577457
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577458
> 
> 
> View attachment 5577459



I have this exact same design, Chanel 19 , 21 B grey, puffy, pillowy and absolutely crease fee.  i must say that year 2021 has seen some of the best quality leathers for chanel 19 coz i saw subsequent ones at the boutique as I was eyeing to collect the caramel, the 22A , leather was really thin , strectched , wrinkly and definitely not the same quality leather and the bag looks starved without its iconic puffed up pillowy look. I do tend to notice that Chanel has the horrid behaviour of "cutting corners" in the quality department of returning popular colours like the caramel, coz they know people will still buy them regardless.


----------



## rainbowneko

PurseCloset said:


> I have this exact same design, Chanel 19 , 21 B grey, puffy, pillowy and absolutely crease fee.  i must say that year 2021 has seen some of the best quality leathers for chanel 19 coz i saw subsequent ones at the boutique as I was eyeing to collect the caramel, the 22A , leather was really thin , strectched , wrinkly and definitely not the same quality leather and the bag looks starved without its iconic puffed up pillowy look. I do tend to notice that Chanel has the horrid behaviour of "cutting corners" in the quality department of returning popular colours like the caramel, coz they know people will still buy them regardless.


Me being one of the delusional customers!!! because the caramel was a seasonal color, now i think its a yearly repeated seasonal colour because it keeps coming back

because if i don't buy today (regardless of the quality), the bag is gonna have a price increase soon (and its gonna costed sgd$9k for a fabric lining bag which is ridiculous!!)


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> Me being one of the delusional customers!!! because the caramel was a seasonal color, now i think its a yearly repeated seasonal colour because it keeps coming back
> 
> because if i don't buy today (regardless of the quality), the bag is gonna have a price increase soon (and its gonna costed sgd$9k for a fabric lining bag which is ridiculous!!)


Ya i get what you meant. The colour hardly comes by and to even be offered, one just had to grab it. The bags are just  flying off the shelves and go out of stock so quickly but guess where it ends up, literally on the reselllers platform the next day!) 

The quality of caramel 22A of Chanel 19 certainly didnt measure up to past models like 21P, 21K where the bag is certainly puffier and pillowy-ier and that leather seems to be of better quality too.   Also noticed that gold antique chain straps seems to  have "oxidised" for my caramel 22A, just look out at the nooks and cranny of the chain strap where each metalliic chain connects to another, there are some dark spots as if the chains gotten rusty , I had to use Q-tip to clean out those parts and I am talking about a bag which i have kept it in the box all this time and yet to use.


----------



## rainbowneko

PurseCloset said:


> Thanks for all the insights rainbowneko on the ongoings with Chanel. No wonder despite the steep price increases the quality has not improved in anyway.
> 
> Wat happened to your c19 caramel the chain strap ? (noticed that there are some black stains in between each of the connnecting  antique gold hardware chain)  Which series was this? Beginning to see very huge differences in leather quality of c19 (especially the popular colours like caramel) over the seasons actually. I am also done with Chanel too. Recent ones quality issues has become so bad it's surfacing across all product lines .


My 22A C19 have several issues:
1. shoddy work on the chain, because of the antique look idk why the interlink between one and other is uncoloured (?) or rather do not have antique effect, and also look at the gap between the links my goodness. Actually there is a core (i assumed its a plastic because its white underneath wrapped around with the antique gold brass(?))
2. Leather wise, on the sides and bottom of my bag feels abit dry (feels like a dry skin) so I put on the leather lotion and its slightly better. The main flap itself looks like coated and i suspect the inner flap might be bonded leather instead (not sure whether bonded leather has pores or not but the main front flap has pores but the inner flap doesn't have visible pores to me)
3. Wrinkly leather -> i tried to convince myself its natural for leathers to have wrinkles (not sure this can be proved as not being a bonded leather???)
3. Stitching issues (i dont think its serious) and i have checked with the after sales team, they said the stitching holes (its not very visible unless you look up close) are within the chanel standards. I will take a pic and show you when i got back.
4. Their quality control cannot make it -> how many holes can you spot on the wallet (I went to exchanged in the end)


----------



## rainbowneko

ntntgo said:


> My point exactly. 24 is insane. That’s how fast they’re turning over inventory & replacing it. Yet people think it’s being hand made????
> 
> The average inventory turnover rate for Mercedes Benz is 8. So Chanel is cranking out products at a rate that is over 3 times what Mercedes Benz is. Hermes for 2021 was 1.97.
> 
> The only people that benefit from that high of a turnover rate is the investors.
> 
> What I’d like to see that I can’t find is Chanel’s inventory days on hand.
> 
> If anyone can find that, I’d love to know because if their IDOH is low and their turnover rate is high, plunge in quality across the brand makes sense. It also means they’re back in “We’re for sale” mode.


Let me see if i can go capitalIQ and find past f/s for chanel limited


----------



## rainbowneko

PurseCloset said:


> Ya i get what you meant. The colour hardly comes by and to even be offered, one just had to grab it. The bags are just  flying off the shelves and go out of stock so quickly but guess where it ends up, literally on the reselllers platform the next day!)
> 
> The quality of caramel 22A of Chanel 19 certainly didnt measure up to past models like 21P, 21K where the bag is certainly puffier and pillowy-ier and that leather seems to be of better quality too.   Also noticed that gold antique chain straps seems to  have "oxidised" for my caramel 22A, just look out at the nooks and cranny of the chain strap where each metalliic chain connects to another, there are some dark spots as if the chains gotten rusty , I had to use Q-tip to clean out those parts and I am talking about a bag which i have kept it in the box all this time and yet to use.


if you can send it for repair even tho its up to 6 months (seems like they got a lot of repairing to do)


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> My 22A C19 have several issues:
> 1. shoddy work on the chain, because of the antique look idk why the interlink between one and other is uncoloured (?) or rather do not have antique effect, and also look at the gap between the links my goodness. Actually there is a core (i assumed its a plastic because its white underneath wrapped around with the antique gold brass(?))
> 2. Leather wise, on the sides and bottom of my bag feels abit dry (feels like a dry skin) so I put on the leather lotion and its slightly better. The main flap itself looks like coated and i suspect the inner flap might be bonded leather instead (not sure whether bonded leather has pores or not but the main front flap has pores but the inner flap doesn't have visible pores to me)
> 3. Wrinkly leather -> i tried to convince myself its natural for leathers to have wrinkles (not sure this can be proved as not being a bonded leather???)
> 3. Stitching issues (i dont think its serious) and i have checked with the after sales team, they said the stitching holes (its not very visible unless you look up close) are within the chanel standards. I will take a pic and show you when i got back.
> 4. Their quality control cannot make it -> how many holes can you spot on the wallet (I went to exchanged in the end)
> 
> View attachment 5590386
> 
> 
> View attachment 5590387
> 
> 
> View attachment 5590388
> 
> 
> View attachment 5590389


My chains had that exact same situation as yours - the dark spots where you circle up. Did the boutique say they will do anything?I originally thought it was humidity  that caused the oxidisation (seriously less than one month? )so I cleaned up all the connecting parts myself.
Should i bring it the boutique to have it inspected? this is so distressing for a SGD$8260 bag!


----------



## rainbowneko

PurseCloset said:


> My chains had that exact same situation as yours - the dark spots where you circle up. Did the boutique say they will do anything?I originally thought it was humidity  that caused the oxidisation (seriously less than one month? )so I cleaned up all the connecting parts myself.
> Should i bring it the boutique to have it inspected? this is so distressing for a SGD$8260 bag!


Yup!! qualified for repair service, the chain doesn't fully close up just annoyed the hell of me and I have to resort to using twillys to loop through the chains and tie a ribbon knot on the end of each side pic for ref


----------



## rainbowneko

rainbowneko said:


> Let me see if i can go capitalIQ and find past f/s for chanel limited


Nope.. they only started to disclose f/s results from 2018 onwards ((








						Chanel Publishes Annual Results for First Time in 108 Years (Published 2018)
					

The French behemoth, known for its perfumes, handbags and double-C logo, reported strong sales growth and rising investment. But that it published at all was a surprise.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Can you guys imagine if there are early 2010s f/s floating around, it will be great to compare the cogs relative to the sale


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> Yup!! qualified for repair service, the chain doesn't fully close up just annoyed the hell of me and I have to resort to using twillys to loop through the chains and tie a ribbon knot on the end of each side pic for ref
> 
> View attachment 5590394


Yeah, i had the same chain gaps too and i thought it was part of the fashion!!! lol

Did they say the will have the gaps looked into? This is hardware issue so I suppose that's why they are sending it to Paris for repair....
22A caramel definitely dont look like 21 P (looks impecable!)
My 22A bag does look really wrinkly and different from the ones in this video 21P


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> Yup!! qualified for repair service, the chain doesn't fully close up just annoyed the hell of me and I have to resort to using twillys to loop through the chains and tie a ribbon knot on the end of each side pic for ref
> 
> View attachment 5590394


Looks like we have a case of consistently below expectation of quality issues here. Will bring my 22A caramel to the boutique soon! 
On a side note, wonder if anyone here who have purchased this season22 B classic flaps , did u compare the base of the bag with the classic flap of yesteryears.. does it appear sturdy and solid when slightly pressed? The ones I saw on display 22B (not for sale and all sold out only to have me seeing it in the resellers platform quite literally the next day) had a very very "unsolid bottom" like lacking a board! My vintage black classic has this beautiful sound when u knock it with solid board but the former one had just dull thud when u knock it and when slightly pressed, the base bulges out


----------



## PurseCloset

i m glad i found this thread coz i was looking for some answers and research myself  and there were no one mentionining this. thought I was being too fussy with the quality but looks like it isnt really!


----------



## rainbowneko

PurseCloset said:


> Yeah, i had the same chain gaps too and i thought it was part of the fashion!!! lol
> 
> Did they say the will have the gaps looked into? This is hardware issue so I suppose that's why they are sending it to Paris for repair....
> 22A caramel definitely dont look like 21 P (looks impecable!)
> My 22A bag does look really wrinkly and different from the ones in this video 21P



Agree that 21P was more well-made! The shoddy chain will be replaced! For wrinkling leathers, i can't advise u much! If you have wrinkling leather on the sides, best to buy a bag organiser and use leather lotion to slightly smoothen the wrinkle..


----------



## ntntgo

Tina1010 said:


> This is new information for me, as I had multiple SA's tell me this year as I've just started purchasing Chanel that the bags are sent for repairs to Paris as part of the 5 year warranty program.  Either they don't know the truth themselves or they lied to me. I had to send a bag into LV for repair and at least the mgr there was honest that the bag will be repaired in California.



Are you in the US? Regardless, there is no repair shop in Paris. The bags are assembled in Italy.
If you’re in the US, ask them why they’re not sending it to be checked in for repair in New Jersey then sent to their contracted US repair shop. I’d love to hear their answer. 

I’m quite certain there are others on this thread that know exactly where their bags go for repair in the US. 

I can tell you that Chanel knows that I’ve known for years where the bags go so they don’t bother trying to sell me on the Paris lie. 

Without giving the name, as I still don’t know if they have an NDA, does anyone else want to confirm or dispute my information?

Edited for autocorrect mistake.


----------



## rainbowneko

PurseCloset said:


> i m glad i found this thread coz i was looking for some answers and research myself  and there were no one mentionining this. thought I was being too fussy with the quality but looks like it isnt really!


trust me you're not fussy... maybe there are other users who are experiencing quality issues they don't want to voice out, while others could be complaining on other platforms.


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> Nope.. they only started to disclose f/s results from 2018 onwards ((
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chanel Publishes Annual Results for First Time in 108 Years (Published 2018)
> 
> 
> The French behemoth, known for its perfumes, handbags and double-C logo, reported strong sales growth and rising investment. But that it published at all was a surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you guys imagine if there are early 2010s f/s floating around, it will be great to compare the cogs relative to the sale


it will be horrifying to know if COGS of these few years have actually gone down (at the back of  inflation and rising cost of production and astronomical sales figures ) compared to numbers of yesteryears .


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> trust me you're not fussy... maybe there are other users who are experiencing quality issues they don't want to voice out, while others could be complaining on other platforms.
> 
> View attachment 5590419
> 
> 
> View attachment 5590420
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5590422


This is horrendous to hear! Looks like it's mostly on the Asian side of Chanel's business

Coz I did a little investigation myself when I asked for 22B classic flaps sold in the USA and UK for their photos plus videos . Both continents showed the bottom base of the bags as alright. However, when I  saw the 22C (the unicorn sakura pink) from resellers and saw both units the actual bags themselves from Shanghai and Chengdu, they had the same horrid weak base ! The only purseforum thread that talks about the weak base was way back in 2018 and no mention of it ever since.


----------



## PurseCloset

22A Caramel Chanel 19. Someone tell me if this looks like 21P other than the name of the bag


----------



## rainbowneko

PurseCloset said:


> This is horrendous to hear! Looks like it's mostly on the Asian side of Chanel's business
> 
> Coz I did a little investigation myself when I asked for 22B classic flaps sold in the USA and UK for their photos plus videos . Both continents showed the bottom base of the bags as alright. However, when I  saw the 22C (the unicorn sakura pink) from resellers and saw both units the actual bags themselves from Shanghai and Chengdu, they had the same horrid weak base ! The only purseforum thread that talks about the weak base was way back in 2018 and no mention of it ever since.


Since asia pacific market is the most accounted the most revenue as compared to the america and europe markets....... maybe it is possible to produce subpar products and just sell (which could possibly explain why the inventory turnover high also). Not only leathergoods, anything that has luxury logos eg. even skincare, makeup could drive china female consumers wild, and they worship celebrities like jennie who is the ambassador for chanel


----------



## ntntgo

PurseCloset said:


> This is horrendous to hear! Looks like it's mostly on the Asian side of Chanel's business
> 
> Coz I did a little investigation myself when I asked for 22B classic flaps sold in the USA and UK for their photos plus videos . Both continents showed the bottom base of the bags as alright. However, when I  saw the 22C (the unicorn sakura pink) from resellers and saw both units the actual bags themselves from Shanghai and Chengdu, they had the same horrid weak base ! The only purseforum thread that talks about the weak base was way back in 2018 and no mention of it ever since.



I’m using your post just as a point of reference so, please don’t take this personally. 

Chanel uses color codes, not names. These names are being put out there by resellers, FB groups, IG influencers & YT influencers. 

Sakura Pink is an Hermes color that people apply to Chanel. It’s not a real thing. And it’s actually called Rose Sakura

Edited for clarification


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> Agree that 21P was more well-made! The shoddy chain will be replaced! For wrinkling leathers, i can't advise u much! If you have wrinkling leather on the sides, best to buy a bag organiser and use leather lotion to slightly smoothen the wrinkle..


Yes thanks. I recently got the zoomoni organizers n mboutique base shaper for my Chanel 19 to prevent further slouching n wrinkles n also had the bag lying down on its back instead of standing up


----------



## PurseCloset

ntntgo said:


> I’m using your post just as a point of reference so, please don’t take this personally.
> 
> Chanel uses color codes, not names. These names are being put out there by resellers, FB groups, IG influencers & YT influencers.
> 
> Sakura Pink is an Hermes color that people apply to Chanel. It’s not a real thing.


Yes I agree absolutely these are given labels not by the house.

 I  suppose it's marketing n  gimmicky to give some figurative of speech to the bag to make it more appealing by resellers,nYT, influencers ,  much like some resellers actually name their bags like how reseller "Mygrandfathersthing" does on instagram. 

The code is NG123 for this shade of pink  22C. The 22B grey is NJ531

But someone tell me if this code is consistent at all, coz I did some research on this too n found some discrepancies.


----------



## Tina1010

ntntgo said:


> Are you in the US? Regardless, there is no repair shop in Paris. The bags are assembled in Italy.
> If you’re in the US, ask them why they’re not sending it to be checked in for repair in New Jersey then sent to their contracted US repair shop. I’d love to hear their answer.
> 
> I’m quite certain there are others on this thread that know exactly where their bags go for repair in the US.
> 
> I can tell you that Chanel knows that I’ve known for years where the bags go so they don’t bother trying to sell me on the Paris lie.
> 
> Without giving the name, as I still don’t know if they have an NDA, does anyone else want to confirm or dispute my information?
> 
> Edited for autocorrect mistake.


Wow, good to know.  I'm honestly shocked.  I've read on tpf here that minor repairs are usually outsourced nearby but to know there is no repair shop in Paris at all is really news to me.  I've been told by 3 SA's within the US where they mentioned to me that repairs are sent to Paris, but I didn't ask for further details because I was not actually sending a bag in for repairs.   If I ever speak to them again, I'll definitely ask as I'm curious now too what their response would be.

I've also read on tpf that Chanel is terrible when it comes to repairs.. sometimes they refuse all together or the bag sometimes comes back in a worse condition.  Is this true? This is why when I was purchasing my first classic, I tried my best to find a piece that is would be as perfect as possible to avoid having to do anything with repairs.


----------



## rainbowneko

Found this on tiktok and decide to share the chanel wallet production cost breakdown explained by this talented leather craftsman!!


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> Since asia pacific market is the most accounted the most revenue as compared to the america and europe markets....... maybe it is possible to produce subpar products and just sell (which could possibly explain why the inventory turnover high also). Not only leathergoods, anything that has luxury logos eg. even skincare, makeup could drive china female consumers wild, and they worship celebrities like jennie who is the ambassador for chanel


Can see  the pressure of immense demands is causing on the QC dept. But at this price point really for this quality which has gone south? No wonder the astronomical reported profits.  Your investigation on the books, numbers of Chanel will certainly shed some interesting insights.


----------



## ntntgo

Tina1010 said:


> Wow, good to know.  I'm honestly shocked.  I've read on tpf here that minor repairs are usually outsourced nearby but to know there is no repair shop in Paris at all is really news to me.  I've been told by 3 SA's within the US where they mentioned to me that repairs are sent to Paris, but I didn't ask for further details because I was not actually sending a bag in for repairs.   If I ever speak to them again, I'll definitely ask as I'm curious now too what their response would be.
> 
> I've also read on tpf that Chanel is terrible when it comes to repairs.. sometimes they refuse all together or the bag comes back in a worse condition.  Is this true? This is why when I was purchasing my first classic, I tried my best to find a piece that is would be as perfect as possible to avoid having to do anything with repairs.



I bypass Chanel all together and just send the bag to the repair shop on my own and have them either bill back Chanel or I just pay for it myself. 

Also, keep in mind that while I did buy one of those stupid heart bags, actually my SA just charged me and sent it to me, I don’t buy new Chanel. I’ve got more bags than I’ll ever use and that’s after selling a ton off over the last 4 years.


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> Found this on tiktok and decide to share the chanel wallet production cost breakdown explained by this talented leather craftsman!!



Very very educational video. Thanks rainbowneko for the video.
 Suddenly feeling so "conned" now
With quality of recent bags going to the pits, the Chanel brand is no longer the weight of gold especially when they did away with 24 K gold plating back in 2008/9!


----------



## ntntgo

rainbowneko said:


> Found this on tiktok and decide to share the chanel wallet production cost breakdown explained by this talented leather craftsman!!




I love that as an actual professional leather tanner who hand makes items, references that the Chanel items are factory made. 

Thank you for this.


----------



## rainbowneko

PurseCloset said:


> View attachment 5590433
> View attachment 5590434
> 
> 22A Caramel Chanel 19. Someone tell me if this looks like 21P other than the name of the bag


Mine is also not as puff up as i expected but i don't mind my c19 being less puff.. Hopefully, our 22A c19 bag is really indestructible eg. no visible corner wears over the time


----------



## TraceySH

rainbowneko said:


> Found this on tiktok and decide to share the chanel wallet production cost breakdown explained by this talented leather craftsman!!



Fantastic! And yeah I would have always guessed that marketing, corporate salaries, social media, boutiques, fashion shows, attorneys, and insane profits would make up 90% OR MORE of the price tag on ANYTHING Chanel (or other big brands). Ridiculous. Just goes to show that we are all buying for an emotional reward, zero logic. ZERO LOGIC.


----------



## Tina1010

ntntgo said:


> I bypass Chanel all together and just send the bag to the repair shop on my own and have them either bill back Chanel or I just pay for it myself.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that while I did buy one of those stupid heart bags, actually my SA just charged me and sent it to me, I don’t buy new Chanel. I’ve got more bags than I’ll ever use and that’s after selling a ton off over the last 4 years.


Would you mind sharing your preference of repair shops? I'd just like to keep the info handy if the time ever comes.


----------



## Guccigal16

ntntgo said:


> I was thinking, since Artbag moved to South Florida, I’m considering  buying a 22, Lord knows the boutiques here are full of them, and taking one of my 19s that isn’t currently at Chanel’s outsourced repair shops up north and having them take them apart while I film it.
> 
> Oh and for everyone that thinks their bags are going to Paris for repair, sorry to disappoint. They get checked in through their repair department in New Jersey then go to a place whom I don’t know if I can name as I’m not sure if they have an NDA or not. Bags that come in to the boutiques before they’re sold and are damaged go directly to their outsourced US repair company without having to be checked in through NJ.
> 
> I thought everyone knew this in the US but I’ve seen a lot of people saying that their bag was sent to Paris.  Why would anyone think that? Maybe I misunderstood.
> 
> I know Chanel has a repair place in the UK and one in China. Not sure where bags in the ME & Africa go but I’m sure they’ve got places there as well. I’m assuming that all of APAC goes to the shop in China. Maybe someone in this thread that’s located in greater AP knows for sure.
> 
> @TraceySH, do you want to ship your 19 or 22 to Artbag and I’ll make the arrangements? I’m willing to use one of my 19s but out of the 11 I had, I sold the 3 newest ones. A 22 I’d have to go buy but I’m willing to do it.
> 
> Thoughts anyone? Do we want to see the most prestigious Hermes repair shop in the US take apart a Chanel?


OMG PLEASE DO THIS!!!!!


----------



## PurseCloset

rainbowneko said:


> Mine is also not as puff up as i expected but i don't mind my c19 being less puff.. Hopefully, our 22A c19 bag is really indestructible eg. no visible corner wears over the time


I m actually babying this 22A bag more than the grey 21B I m afraid of it getting more wrinkles  than the actual age of the bag,  Gosh, barely a month!


----------



## gail13

I know not everyone is a fan of Super Dacob but this video really sums up alot of things said in this thread. He was the first to bring up peeling issues with his 22 bag and begin to question what material was being used. It's not about bashing a brand, its about hoping they do better.


----------



## tenshix

ntntgo said:


> I bypass Chanel all together and just send the bag to the repair shop on my own and have them either bill back Chanel or I just pay for it myself.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that while I did buy one of those stupid heart bags, actually my SA just charged me and sent it to me, I don’t buy new Chanel. I’ve got more bags than I’ll ever use and that’s after selling a ton off over the last 4 years.



Hi Nat @ntntgo ! Not sure if you remember me from way back in the day since I didn’t post a whole lot but I remember you around the time I first joined in 2009! It’s so good to see you around again, I always love reading your helpful posts! I’m trying to PM you regarding the repair shop but TPF isn’t allowing me to PM you for some reason.. If PM doesn’t work on here would you mind if I added you on FB or IG to DM you for your advice?


----------



## Coach Superfan

ntntgo said:


> I was thinking, since Artbag moved to South Florida, I’m considering  buying a 22, Lord knows the boutiques here are full of them, and taking one of my 19s that isn’t currently at Chanel’s outsourced repair shops up north and having them take them apart while I film it.
> 
> 
> @TraceySH, do you want to ship your 19 or 22 to Artbag and I’ll make the arrangements? I’m willing to use one of my 19s but out of the 11 I had, I sold the 3 newest ones. A 22 I’d have to go buy but I’m willing to do it.
> 
> Thoughts anyone? Do we want to see the most prestigious Hermes repair shop in the US take apart a Chanel?





TraceySH said:


> I will send you my beige one that smells like chemicals. I can't use it. It's embarrassing, the smell. Shall we donate it to science?



Fantastic idea if you ladies are willing to do this! PLEASE do and start a new thread for us so that all the new info stemming from the dissections isn't lost in this fabulous thread!


----------



## ant23

I have been following this thread with awe so far reading through  all your interesting contributions and knowledge.

I was wondering, are the majority of people having issues in the US market? Meaning purchased their bags in a US boutique?


----------



## Swanky

ant23 said:


> I have been following this thread with awe so far reading through  all your interesting contributions and knowledge.
> 
> I was wondering, are the majority of people having issues in the US market? Meaning purchased their bags in a US boutique?



All of mine are purchased in the US, I've bought 5 in the last few months alone, no quality issues for me.


----------



## chococatx

ntntgo said:


> Are you in the US? Regardless, there is no repair shop in Paris. The bags are assembled in Italy.
> If you’re in the US, ask them why they’re not sending it to be checked in for repair in New Jersey then sent to their contracted US repair shop. I’d love to hear their answer.
> 
> I’m quite certain there are others on this thread that know exactly where their bags go for repair in the US.
> 
> I can tell you that Chanel knows that I’ve known for years where the bags go so they don’t bother trying to sell me on the Paris lie.
> 
> Without giving the name, as I still don’t know if they have an NDA, does anyone else want to confirm or dispute my information?
> 
> Edited for autocorrect mistake.


You are correct. If you are in the USA, bag gets sent to New Jersey. That's what my repair specialist told me when I sent in 3 or 4 of my bags. My classic flaps (brand new) already had hardware rusting and that rust would stain my bag and straps. Had to send them in for complete hardware replacement.

I now check the hardware before purchasing any more classic flaps.

I had my shoes repaired (I don't know where shoes get repaired), but they did a horrendous job. There are visible glue stains from the repair on my shoes that cannot be erased. I regret sending my shoes in and should have done the repair myself.


----------



## tenshix

chococatx said:


> You are correct. If you are in the USA, bag gets sent to New Jersey. That's what my repair specialist told me when I sent in 3 or 4 of my bags. My classic flaps (brand new) already had hardware rusting and that rust would stain my bag and chain. Had to send them in for complete hardware replacement.
> 
> I now check the hardware before purchasing any more classic flaps.
> 
> I had my shoes repaired (I don't know where shoes get repaired), but they did a horrendous job. There are visible glue stains from the repair on my shoes that cannot be erased. I regret sending my shoes in and should have done the repair myself.



Wow I’m so sorry to hear this. Getting items back in even worse condition than when you sent them in is so stressful to deal with. I wonder if your local cobbler would be able to get rid of the stain somehow with a glue remover.

As for your bag repairs may I ask approximately how long it took to get the bags back? And may I ask how much it was to replace the hardware? I find it totally unacceptable that brand new bags would already have rusted hardware and really disappointed that these kinds of bags slip through Chanel QC all the time. I have a stitch on the back of a brand new CF that was undone upon opening all the brand new wrapping in the box which is a pretty minor defect compared to what many others have experienced with the brand.


----------



## chococatx

tenshix said:


> Wow I’m so sorry to hear this. Getting items back in even worse condition than when you sent them in is so stressful to deal with. I wonder if your local cobbler would be able to get rid of the stain somehow with a glue remover.
> 
> As for your bag repairs may I ask approximately how long it took to get the bags back? And may I ask how much it was to replace the hardware? I find it totally unacceptable that brand new bags would already have rusted hardware and really disappointed that these kinds of bags slip through Chanel QC all the time. I have a stitch on the back of a brand new CF that was undone upon opening all the brand new wrapping in the box which is a pretty minor defect compared to what many others have experienced with the brand.


About 8 months. One took over a year and a half but that one was during COVID. Shoes not very long (~2 months). They were all complimentary.

And that's a good idea! I might just go to my local cobbler to see if it can be re-repaired.


----------



## tenshix

chococatx said:


> About 8 months. One took over a year and a half but that one was during COVID. Shoes not very long (~2 months). They were all complimentary.
> 
> And that's a good idea! I might just go to my local cobbler to see if it can be re-repaired.



Gosh those are crazy long turnaround times! Thank you for the info.

I hope your shoes can still be repaired, hopefully the cobblers can remove the stains.


----------



## waterlily112

chococatx said:


> You are correct. If you are in the USA, bag gets sent to New Jersey. That's what my repair specialist told me when I sent in 3 or 4 of my bags. My classic flaps (brand new) already had hardware rusting and that rust would stain my bag and straps. Had to send them in for complete hardware replacement.
> 
> I now check the hardware before purchasing any more classic flaps.
> 
> I had my shoes repaired (I don't know where shoes get repaired), but they did a horrendous job. There are visible glue stains from the repair on my shoes that cannot be erased. I regret sending my shoes in and should have done the repair myself.


That's insane there are quality issues with the classic flaps too. You'd think if they decided cut corners with newer designs, at least try to maintain the quality for the classics. Unfortunately I've seen a YouTuber with similar issues on her 22C white classic flap too, the hardware is rusting, leaving black stains all over the bag and straps too. Another kicker is that when she brought it in to the boutique, the SA just gaslit her into thinking she wasn't storing her bag properly, and then saying if the repair department deemed the damage of her bag is caused by her and not a defect, they won't do anything about it. Like seriously? God forbid if I take my classic flap to brunch and spill red wine on it, I'd still like to have my bag repaired even if it's my own fault. I really don't get it. 

Here's her video in case anyone's interested:


----------



## chococatx

waterlily112 said:


> That's insane there are quality issues with the classic flaps too. You'd think if they decided cut corners with newer designs, at least try to maintain the quality for the classics. Unfortunately I've seen a YouTuber with similar issues on her 22C white classic flap too, the hardware is rusting, leaving black stains all over the bag and straps too. Another kicker is that when she brought it in to the boutique, the SA just gaslit her into thinking she wasn't storing her bag properly, and then saying if the repair department deemed the damage of her bag is caused by her and not a defect, they won't do anything about it. Like seriously? God forbid if I take my classic flap to brunch and spill red wine on it, I'd still like to have my bag repaired even if it's my own fault. I really don't get it.
> 
> Here's her video in case anyone's interested:



Yes, that's exactly what happened to my classic flaps. I also heard the funky town bags had this issue and ruined a lady's jacket she was wearing while taking the bag out because the black stains from the rusted hardware got onto her jacket.


----------



## zaraha

ntntgo said:


> Are you in the US? Regardless, there is no repair shop in Paris. The bags are assembled in Italy.
> If you’re in the US, ask them why they’re not sending it to be checked in for repair in New Jersey then sent to their contracted US repair shop. I’d love to hear their answer.
> 
> I’m quite certain there are others on this thread that know exactly where their bags go for repair in the US.
> 
> I can tell you that Chanel knows that I’ve known for years where the bags go so they don’t bother trying to sell me on the Paris lie.
> 
> Without giving the name, as I still don’t know if they have an NDA, does anyone else want to confirm or dispute my information?
> 
> Edited for autocorrect mistake.


I can also confirm bags & shoes repair goes to local 3rd party in USA. In fact one of chanel SA gave me one of local cobbler they use.  I went to check out the place; ended up talking to the owner.  He was nice enough to take me to workshop room where he had tons of chanel bags that was pending for repair.  He also had various crocodile skins; asked me if I wanted a custom made bag and he can do it for fraction of cost where these designer would sell. So yeah I don’t believe bags goes to Paris for repairs .


----------



## Ghettoe

rainbowneko said:


> COGS in the financials are made up of different lines in chanel from beauty to RTW, and the amount was being aggregated. if u note in my excel, you realised chanel has lesser COGS as compared to other luxury companies, which is already a red flag on how much they are profiting milking from consumers. nobody knows unless you're the management accountant that in charge of approving budgets, to know what's cogs for each item relative to their sales price



Now, I'm even more confused. Do LVMH, Hermes and Chanel all have the same inventory, segments, geographic locations, suppliers, etc? Also, If Chanel had put enough investment in the previous years perhaps through things like automation of certain segments, better contracts with suppliers, etc. That would make COGS high in certain years and then lower in others. 

I haven't combed through their financials in detail, but I see that some of their capex spend last year went into opening up a leather goods manufacturing facility in France. At this point, you can also run with that and claim, Chanel is not milking customers and is absolutely re-investing into their brand.

Those are both hasty conclusions based on very slim information akin to if you told me you bought five pairs of shoes last year, and I concluded that you must be a shoe reseller.


----------



## jelliedfeels

gail13 said:


> I would really love to play a game where three bags of competing designers are laid side by side with the emblems and any branding detail removed to see what would we would all pick in terms of quality.  And then again lay those 3 bags side by side with the branding in place to see what happens.
> 
> When Karl was designing, I loved his work and creativity. Thats also what made the difference to me. With Virginie, Im not seeing anywhere near the creativity.
> 
> @bagsaremyjam, playing devils advocate here, what are the main differences you see? Im talking about other designers including TB who are priced in the 1k range. The ones who disclose materials used etc. Because some of these look pretty nice to me, but you can order on a website and obviously not as exclusive.


I would love to see this. Someone call Jeffrey Star and his hot knife!  


gail13 said:


> There is so much info out there about luxury goods and why they are priced as they are. The psychology of it all is very interesting. So little is about quality. Its about the strength of the brand, the image they project and the image people want themselves to have. I have bought into quite a bit of it myself. But as I educate myself and look at some of the things out there now-actually most of it, its like fast fashion. Prices on past collections rising and falling quickly in about a 6 week time frame-I know because I tracked it.  It is very seldom that an item retains its value after that.
> 
> I do not think most people would buy luxury goods for their quality if the brand name wasn't on it. If the bag or sweater was so well made and the design was great but it did not have a Hermes, Chanel etc name on it but it was one of those brands, it would not sell for half the price.  These brands have gotten so rich because we are such good consumers and buy into it all.


I mean realistically we see this even with kids. One day they no longer want the blue dinosaur they want the blue Nike or adidas. We use brands to be a visual shorthand for our personality and values.

This is most obvious in brands like Telfar and Stella McCartney. If we just discount all their more complex designs and look at a plain branded oblong tote in black (which is probably among their best sellers) obviously they are faux leather bags- so it’s not the appeal of leather, obviously you can get a similar design anywhere- so it’s not originality, and obviously you can buy a vegan bag made ethically for way less money but that’s not the point, the point is it conveys  both the individual’s relative wealth and their interest in supporting black business or animal rights and makes them part of a group the bushwick Birkin hipsters or the Sloane rangers. Same with Chanel it’s meant to be feminine, understated elegance etc etc.


TraceySH said:


> I think you might be mistaken here. This is the original Chanel flap from 1955. The classic flap, as we know it, came along later, in the 80s I believe. Then the 2.55 was "reissued" and we had the choice of either the classic flap with the CC or the reissue (but with different chains than the original) and more demure turnlock.
> 
> View attachment 5580664
> 
> 
> View attachment 5580675


I find it so funny that Coco’s bag would probably be clocked as a dupe today


ntntgo said:


> The 2.55 was (I know I’m going to likely lambasted for this but facts are facts) based off of the military bags that the SS soldiers carried. Keep in mind the herstory of Coco & the SS


Alas, we can’t argue those Nazis had some stylish uniforms.


JamaisAssez said:


> Logo heavy RTW was *solely introduced* by Lagerfeld. According to Vogue he created the CC logo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Karl Lagerfeld Reinvented Chanel—and the Role of the Creative Director on Today’s ‘In Vogue: The 1990s’ Episode
> 
> 
> In the 1990s the multitasking designer Karl Lagerfeld transformed the house of Chanel, the industry, and himself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vogue.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyday Things Karl Lagerfeld Has Put the Chanel Logo On
> 
> 
> Beach balls, life preservers, flasks — the works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thecut.com


Wider context of course is KL is doing this during the birth and inexorable rise of logo mania and streetwear. 

It’s the heyday of dapper Dan and the matching LV logo suit, hat, bag and car. 


TraceySH said:


> I would say I’ve had over the years about 40-45 severely defective Chanel bags… so about 7%?





TraceySH said:


> Which is what I did. Of course haha. But I wanted that one so badly! My SA didn’t tell me until after it was returned that Chanel had identified them all as defective. I guess they want to see who will keep them first. It was an odd sort of “wet”.


Whats disgraceful about this is they just sent it out - where is the quality control?  it probably wasn’t tanned properly and they should have multiple points to notice those kinds of production errors- especially if it’s meant to be artisanal/hand finished production.

The refund policy sounds really bad too as a ‘VIP’ loyal client they should respect your reasoning especially when the flaws are obvious.


Coach Superfan said:


> Ok so one thing that comes to mind when I read both of these comments is the Marc Jacobs Collection handbags back when it was considered a "Premier" designer here on TPF.... like 2006-2010ish. There was also his lower contemporary Marc by Marc Jacobs line that I am not referring to here. He was producing his MJ Collection while the creative director at LV (hence the similarities in some designs like the LV Alma vs. MJ Elise.. and the MJ Venetia has an LV twin that I can't recall). It wasn't until like 2013 that he left LV to focus on his own line, which ironically hasn't been as successful as his earlier Collection bags (IMO). Since then quality and design have gone downhill. I'd have to argue that the quality of his MJ Collection bags with the iconic pushlock pocket closures, 100% calfskin, and interior suede lining were made with waaaaay better quality than the 22 and 19 tote (disclaimer: I have not examined either IRL). I also don't recall frequent QC issues on MJ Collection bags the way we've seen throughout the Chanel forum. No, I do not consider the MJ Collection bags to be "luxe" but I think this is a pretty good example of higher quality contemporary brands vs. the current quality of some Chanel bags, yet at the same time these MJ classics have not retained their RV.


I read somewhere that diffusion lines are often catastrophic for brands as provided they are visually similar enough, hyped and branded enough like the high end people won’t buy the high end and I think this is what happened for MJ and Michael Kors.


bagsaremyjam said:


> I think a lot of this comes into play as well because a lot of people are buying these bags just to buy the bag for the name, status, etc. If you’re buying it for all the things above but you also love the design most would spend time looking at them in person or other brands for comparison and educating themselves. I think sometimes SA’s expect more from people purchasing and don’t have time to give a 30 minute overview, but I also think a 5 to 10 minute discussion on things to look for is necessary. I think if there’s a love for the brand many assume you’ve done your homework, but there’s so many who go in and buy a bag blindly because of perceived status.


I think one of the best points @TraceySH has made on this thread is that there’s lots of people who want to do their research before buying and ask questions about the supply chain like ‘is this pure lambskin? Where was it slaughtered? How was it dyed? Is it handsewn? We’re the workers paid a living wage? Etc’
The problem is this information is inconsistently available at best and I *personally* feel that a heritage, luxury  brand should have this kind of info available on their website or helpline at least. As others have pointed out, lots of other brands at various price points have far more information on their website.


----------



## PurseCloset

Found this rather informative video on the baseline one should expect to look out for and perhaps tolerate what is acceptable in the QC of a branded bag.

Time 11.46 talks about Chanel's stance on repair work , what and what cannot be fixed.
The summary here is to inspect the bags properly before leaving the boutique with it, otherwise all the complication and complexities involved (made worse by the constant price increases) .

I certainly like the message Laura posed , " Do not be afraid to walk away without buying the bag just because it is a hard-to-come-by bag"


----------



## ntntgo

tenshix said:


> Hi Nat @ntntgo ! Not sure if you remember me from way back in the day since I didn’t post a whole lot but I remember you around the time I first joined in 2009! It’s so good to see you around again, I always love reading your helpful posts! I’m trying to PM you regarding the repair shop but TPF isn’t allowing me to PM you for some reason.. If PM doesn’t work on here would you mind if I added you on FB or IG to DM you for your advice?


Hey! It has been a very long time since I’ve been on TPF.  It’s good to see you. I was able to DM you & of course you can send me a FB FR.  I mostly stopped coming on TPF because so many of us OGs became friends in real life. Let’s catch up off line of this thread.


----------



## ntntgo

chococatx said:


> You are correct. If you are in the USA, bag gets sent to New Jersey. That's what my repair specialist told me when I sent in 3 or 4 of my bags. My classic flaps (brand new) already had hardware rusting and that rust would stain my bag and straps. Had to send them in for complete hardware replacement.
> 
> I now check the hardware before purchasing any more classic flaps.
> 
> I had my shoes repaired (I don't know where shoes get repaired), but they did a horrendous job. There are visible glue stains from the repair on my shoes that cannot be erased. I regret sending my shoes in and should have done the repair myself.


Shoes in the US go to a company called The Cobblers.  They bought out my local shoe repair that was owned by a man who started out at MM7 in Paris.  Since The Cobblers bought them, I have had more shoes damaged by them. But that’s who many of the department stores & brands have their shoe repair contract with


----------



## papertiger

rainbowneko said:


> In my opinion, as a new chanel consumer (because i only started my mini chanel bags collection a few years ago, didn't own any vintage pieces, not a vip client as well), after doing research and reading up on the financial statements uploaded by chanel limited, there are a few takeaways:
> 
> 1. General consumers may think that the entire chanel brand is only by chanel limited (at least this is what i am thinking until today I did research on it). The fact that Litor Ltd is staying away from the limelight is already a big red flag as we do not have any idea whether the company is solely owned by Wertheimer family or mix of people. In addition, Litor Ltd does not have any official information eg. types of business activities surfaced on capitalIQ as well. As a consumer, i feel abit "cheated"/ doubtful because the money spent on chanel items might not be greatly reinvested to improve the quality of the products or even raise production line (pretty sure they have sufficient funds to do so). If chanel really reinvested to improve the quality of the products, there will be lesser people complaining on social media platforms!! from time to time i saw users posting their chanel issues on chinese social media app...
> 
> 2. They are not transparent with the consumers with their financial statements because, on the chanel website, they only uploaded key highlights which are not really useful as compared to a full annual report. As a consumer, what kind of subsidiaries, joint ventures etc they are having as well because technically it helps to reduce production costs, and when Chanel said they increase prices for price harmonisation is really bs...........
> 
> 3. They preach a lot on sustainability but they are churning out so many "fast-fashion paced" products... does it even make sense? I am not surprised if they are going to have 12 collections in a year in the near future!!



Some companies may not be as "transparent" as other major lux companies because they are a) Private and not Public. That's why we can read full (actually 'full') breakdowns of PLCs in their annual reports and b) Chanel dodges filing reports it should do by paying a fine (calculated within their financial strategy).

This probably* has to do with not wanting their competitors to analyse and evaluate their past and future strategy* rather than burying money (as we know _many_ companies, private and public) pay tax in different countries including off-shore and in other tax-havens to max their advantage e.g. Gucci pays tax in Switzerland through a subsidiary and pays minimum Italian tax SwissInfo). What tech giants get up to is on another level.

Please don't think Chanel is a more (or less) sculdugerous than any of the other large companies.


----------



## papertiger

gail13 said:


> I think we are going to start seeing new materials that aren't what we are used to, in the name of sustainability.



We already are (universally, and not just Chanel). 

Do we really think Chanel exotics would have been discontinued had they been as/more profitable as reg leather/other materials?


----------



## rainbowneko

papertiger said:


> Some companies may not be as "transparent" as other major lux companies because they are a) Private and not Public. That's why we can read full (actually 'full') breakdowns of PLCs in their annual reports and b) Chanel dodges filing reports it should do by paying a fine (calculated within their financial strategy).
> 
> This probably* has to do with not wanting their competitors to analyse and evaluate their past and future strategy* rather than burying money (as we know _many_ companies, private and public) pay tax in different countries including off-shore and in other tax-havens to max their advantage e.g. Gucci pays tax in Switzerland through a subsidiary and pays minimum Italian tax SwissInfo). What tech giants get up to is on another level.
> 
> Please don't think Chanel is a more (or less) sculdugerous than any of the other large companies.


But as a consumer I didn’t expect chanel, being a private company, they have so many subsidiaries… the amount of the subsidiaries they have are comparable to other listed companies. Doesn’t feel good to know it’s being owned by a “mysterious” ultimate parent company.

Like what you have mentioned, being a private company has its benefits and in this case, they really played it well!


----------



## rainbowneko

Ghettoe said:


> Now, I'm even more confused. Do LVMH, Hermes and Chanel all have the same inventory, segments, geographic locations, suppliers, etc? Also, If Chanel had put enough investment in the previous years perhaps through things like automation of certain segments, better contracts with suppliers, etc. That would make COGS high in certain years and then lower in others.
> 
> I haven't combed through their financials in detail, but I see that some of their capex spend last year went into opening up a leather goods manufacturing facility in France. At this point, you can also run with that and claim, Chanel is not milking customers and is absolutely re-investing into their brand.
> 
> Those are both hasty conclusions based on very slim information akin to if you told me you bought five pairs of shoes last year, and I concluded that you must be a shoe reseller.


There’s no company in this world that are equally the same. Only comparable companies.

If Chanel really reinvesting in the business, why do people keep raising quality issues even in RTW. Leather goods manufacturing facility means nothing, how can the company ensures that they’re using French-raised calfskin to make classic flap hahahaha. Anyways leather goods manufacturing facility = assembly point. Additional manufacturing facility shows that demands for Chanel’s classics and RTW are booming. Not necessarily improving control.

I wondered how many people think that their classic flaps or even seasonal/ RTW are made in France/ Italy/ Spain from scratch. Probably the component parts and their leathers or materials are being sourced from other countries (why would they want to use French-raised calfskin or sheepskin or handwoven tweed?)

We shall see next year’s annual report result!


----------



## gail13

papertiger said:


> Do we really think Chanel exotics would have been discontinued had they been as/more profitable as reg leather/other materials?


Not at all. I also think there is a reason caviar mini's were discontinued and why we see so few small bags in caviar.


----------



## Jayne1

ntntgo said:


> Are you in the US? Regardless, there is no repair shop in Paris. The bags are assembled in Italy.
> If you’re in the US, ask them why they’re not sending it to be checked in for repair in New Jersey then sent to their contracted US repair shop. I’d love to hear their answer.
> 
> I’m quite certain there are others on this thread that know exactly where their bags go for repair in the US.
> 
> I can tell you that Chanel knows that I’ve known for years where the bags go so they don’t bother trying to sell me on the Paris lie.
> 
> Without giving the name, as I still don’t know if they have an NDA, does anyone else want to confirm or dispute my information?
> 
> Edited for autocorrect mistake.


I'm in Toronto - My SA told me years ago that the bags were sent a block away to a rather good leather repair shop that I had used on my own.  Point is, the bags and shoes do not go to Paris.

ETA - I told everyone this a decade or so ago and no one believed me.  lol


----------



## papertiger

Jayne1 said:


> I'm in Toronto - My SA told me years ago that the bags were sent a block away to a rather good leather repair shop that I had used on my own.  Point is, the bags and shoes do not go to Paris.



It's the same with most lux retailers. Chanel is not a leather goods and accessories specialist, they are a fashion brand. They have ateliers (as do Valentino etc) expert tailors that can alter RTW usually exceptionally well. Even if it's sent to Paris, a bag will only be examined there, C probably have to send it off somewhere else again, that's why it prob takes so long. If they can cut out some of the smaller jobs to do locally it must help logistically.  

Hermes and Gucci are leather specialists and have enormous resources for leather goods, it's easier for them to send back to their own workshops and factories. Even Gucci have their shoes resoled locally.


----------



## Swanky

People have said for a long time that some items are repaired in the US, this isn't news on tPF.  There was a place in NY (I think?) that it was common knowledge to be used.  
Maybe some pieces go to Paris, maybe not.  I wouldn't care as long as a talented repairperson was used, and honestly we won't know the truth IMO unless a rep from Chanel confirms it here.  JMO.
There's a Dallas repair place I've used, everyone in Dallas uses them and I'd send my Chanel there for sure.


----------



## annam

Jayne1 said:


> I'm in Toronto - My SA told me years ago that the bags were sent a block away to a rather good leather repair shop that I had used on my own.  Point is, the bags and shoes do not go to Paris.
> 
> ETA - I told everyone this a decade or so ago and no one believed me.  lol


Can you share the name of shop? I have been looking at getting my bag relined. This would be super helpful!


----------



## sjunky13

Leather surgeons is where Chanel outsourced repairs  for the past 20 years. They used to hide that info like 15 years ago. I know they work with local leather repair depending on location.


----------



## gail13

Swanky said:


> People have said for a long time that some items are repaired in the US, this isn't news on tPF.


There are alot of new buyers in this Forum. Many of the older SA's from Chanel have been replaced with newer ones who are not thoroughly trained. I think any of us who know the collections, the nuances of Chanel can attest to that-we many times know more than the SA's do and they admit it. The SA's have and do tell us things are sent to Chanel Paris for repair, probably because it is what they are told.  It might not mean anything to you, but many of us would prefer to know the truth. All these little non truths, add up to one big one. Smoke and mirrors, and it gets old.  Chanel or otherwise, we want to know #luxetruth.   

I don't think any of us care if it's repaired in US, so why not tell us that? The point of this whole thread is lack of transparency on materials and processes.


----------



## Swanky

I’ve never had a bag repaired, but have read different posts through the years about Chanel using local places, it wasn’t a secret is all I’m saying. Im also saying that if Chanel is saying some items will be repaired in France, they might actually be 

The truth is fabulous, I have no issues with it!


----------



## lalame

I have to imagine it’s both. Hermes does repairs in house locally for some things and sends purses to Europe for repairs of other things.


----------



## jelliedfeels

It’s been referenced before by @papertiger and @880 and now I can’t find their messages but this shadiness about materials is very noticeable in exotic leathers. Selling alligator or cayman even as crocodile is absolutely shameless fraud as they are different animals. 

Of course Chanel has now stopped selling exotics for ‘environmental’ reasons but given this is the same company which tells people they should only expect their leather bags to last a season or only wear RTW a few times as it is ‘fashion’ we can extrapolate from that how seriously they take sustainability. 

Exotics are meant to represent the highest level of combining leathercraft, design and materials which combined with the higher cost of farming carnivores means they command the biggest prices. Given they command such big money and have historical prestige I think it’s interesting to wonder why Chanel has decided to stop. I was wondering whether it might be because of the croc farming cruelty controversies but that doesn’t seem to have hit Hermes. Also if they are planning to continue expanding primarily in mainland China there’s far less animal rights regulations to worry about. So I’ve got to think it comes down to the COGS again. Pure speculation on my part but I think they didn’t want to pay the craftspeople who know how to sew exotics even with a hefty markup when they can machine sew leather for less and still put prices up. 

Also, I’m not anti-animal products by any means (I actually love snakeskin and vintage fur), but it does make me wonder what sort of life these calves had if their hides are only going for $30 top end.


----------



## ntntgo

sjunky13 said:


> Leather surgeons is where Chanel outsourced repairs  for the past 20 years. They used to hide that info like 15 years ago. I know they work with local leather repair depending on location.


Yes. If you take a bag in for repair it gets checked in through NJ to see if it’s something minor but then most go to Leather Surgeons if it’s not something their RTW seamstresses can’t sew. Like if it’s a fabric bag. 

I wasn’t going to throw their name out there, regardless that most long time Chanel clients know this, because I don’t know what their current NDA situation is. 

I bypass Chanel all together. My bags go directly to LS.  Not just Chanel & not just bags. I trust Gerry Gallagher and his sons far more than I trust anyone with all of my leather goods.

Now that Artbag has moved from NYC after 90 years, to So FL, I’m going to test drive them with one of my Kellys. Plus they did agree to take apart @TraceySH Chanel.  Although they said they can tell by just looking at any “leather good” whether it’s bonded leather or not leather at all or what grade of leather it is.

Anyway, now that Leather Surgeons name has been put out there by someone else, I’m glad because they do amazing work and they’ve got 6 bags of mine right now. They know more about Chanel’s bags than Chanel. I’ll leave it at that.


----------



## zaraha

ntntgo said:


> Yes. If you take a bag in for repair it gets checked in through NJ to see if it’s something minor but then most go to Leather Surgeons if it’s not something their RTW seamstresses can’t sew. Like if it’s a fabric bag.
> 
> I wasn’t going to throw their name out there, regardless that most long time Chanel clients know this, because I don’t know what their current NDA situation is.
> 
> I bypass Chanel all together. My bags go directly to LS.  Not just Chanel & not just bags. I trust Gerry Gallagher and his sons far more than I trust anyone with all of my leather goods.
> 
> Now that Artbag has moved from NYC after 90 years, to So FL, I’m going to test drive them with one of my Kellys. Plus they did agree to take apart @TraceySH Chanel.  Although they said they can tell by just looking at any “leather good” whether it’s bonded leather or not leather at all or what grade of leather it is.
> 
> Anyway, now that Leather Surgeons name has been put out there by someone else, I’m glad because they do amazing work and they’ve got 6 bags of mine right now. They know more about Chanel’s bags than Chanel. I’ll leave it at that.


I’m so excited to see @TraceySH Chanel bag’s autopsy report  thank you ladies for doing this for us! we really appreciate it!   I would assume similar leather being used for 22 bags too.


----------



## Liberté

jelliedfeels said:


> It’s been referenced before by @papertiger and @880 and now I can’t find their messages but this shadiness about materials is very noticeable in exotic leathers. Selling alligator or cayman even as crocodile is absolutely shameless fraud as they are different animals.
> 
> Of course Chanel has now stopped selling exotics for ‘environmental’ reasons but given this is the same company which tells people they should only expect their leather bags to last a season or only wear RTW a few times as it is ‘fashion’ we can extrapolate from that how seriously they take sustainability.
> 
> Exotics are meant to represent the highest level of combining leathercraft, design and materials which combined with the higher cost of farming carnivores means they command the biggest prices. Given they command such big money and have historical prestige I think it’s interesting to wonder why Chanel has decided to stop. I was wondering whether it might be because of the croc farming cruelty controversies but that doesn’t seem to have hit Hermes. Also if they are planning to continue expanding primarily in mainland China there’s far less animal rights regulations to worry about. So I’ve got to think it comes down to the COGS again. Pure speculation on my part but I think they didn’t want to pay the craftspeople who know how to sew exotics even with a hefty markup when they can machine sew leather for less and still put prices up.
> 
> Also, I’m not anti-animal products by any means (I actually love snakeskin and vintage fur), but it does make me wonder what sort of life these calves had if their hides are only going for $30 top end.


Please someone else chime in, but I believe this was a major reason why they stopped exotics:

"While competitors were busy snapping up farms and tanneries, the French luxury house failed to secure its exotics supply chain, giving it diminished access to top quality materials"

BoF

There is for sure a market for Chanel exotics, even in rtw or hc, but exotics had apparently become expensive to source (LVMH and hermes have in house farms) and for some skins very labor intensive (like stingray) and it could be good publicity. I'm also guessing maybe volume is low for these items, it seems easier to be offered an exotic Birkin according to some sources here.


----------



## TPFer2015

I just had my 19 repaired, and I got my bag back in two weeks, it was sent to the London atelier which can do minor repairs. Apparently anything major (need new hardware, etc) will be sent to Paris. FYIP


----------



## katlina

jcantu said:


> Yet here you are. You clicked on, read through it, and then decided to comment.
> 
> You refuse to accept the empirical data of a decent amount of users based on what “Chanel says”. Does Chanel send you a paycheck to defend them? Chanel defenders are ALMOST as bad as Hermes defenders.


 I haven’t read through any of those pages. But you seem to go out of your way to keep insisting that we should be bothered. Does it bother you so much that some people simply don’t care whether you are right or not? I enjoy my bags regardless of what some hobby investigators think Chanel is doing with our money or the products. I don’t care. Seems to bother you. You seem to believe that everyone needs to freak out and stop buying Chanel. I choose not to participate in this weird hobby detective thing. I love my bags I love my products I don’t care about the rest.


----------



## katlina

TraceySH said:


> Lol. Consider it public service. If it irritates you, move on.


You consider your contribution a public service? Wowsa! Good luck with everything


----------



## PurseCloset

TPFer2015 said:


> I just had my 19 repaired, and I got my bag back in two weeks, it was sent to the London atelier which can do minor repairs. Apparently anything major (need new hardware, etc) will be sent to Paris. FYIP


Why did you repair your 19? Hardware issues?


----------



## jelliedfeels

Not trying to knock the author but it is interesting that the latest purseblog article on must know Chanel bags lists the 22 as the iconic Chanel shopping tote….

No bonbon? No Deauville? No GST?


----------



## TraceySH

jelliedfeels said:


> Not trying to knock the author but it is interesting that the latest purseblog article on must know Chanel bags lists the 22 as the iconic Chanel shopping tote….
> 
> No bonbon? No Deauville? No GST?


And the trendy is missing also. I’d put the Gabrielle in there simply because it’s considered a classic even tho I don’t like it. Also, ummmmm how about the mini? The mini isn’t a classic flap, but it’s been all the rage for a decade. Some odd choices for sure. The 22 most def doesn’t belong there… a plug for Chanel perhaps?


----------



## jelliedfeels

TraceySH said:


> And the trendy is missing also. I’d put the Gabrielle in there simply because it’s considered a classic even tho I don’t like it. Also, ummmmm how about the mini? The mini isn’t a classic flap, but it’s been all the rage for a decade. Some odd choices for sure. The 22 most def doesn’t belong there… a plug for Chanel perhaps?


Yes it sounds a little cynical but the 22 being there when it has reported quality issues and hasn’t been out that long compared to the others to prove it’s long term appeal seems like a bit of a plug- but IDK.


----------



## gail13

TraceySH said:


> And the trendy is missing also. I’d put the Gabrielle in there simply because it’s considered a classic even tho I don’t like it. Also, ummmmm how about the mini? The mini isn’t a classic flap, but it’s been all the rage for a decade. Some odd choices for sure. The 22 most def doesn’t belong there… a plug for Chanel perhaps?


Anytime there are sponsors buying advertising, I wouldn't consider the source objective. If it were, it would be odd not to mention some of the specific quality issues with this bag and leather used?   I don't see many quotes or sources referred to nor do I see many unique articles.


----------



## Coach Superfan

jelliedfeels said:


> Yes it sounds a little cynical but the 22 being there when it has reported quality issues and hasn’t been out that long compared to the others to prove it’s long term appeal seems like a bit of a plug- but IDK.


Totally. I haven't seen the article, but I am assuming the classic flaps would obviously be on there and need no hype (and would seem fishy if they aren't included)... but from what you're reporting, sounds like the 22 is included because it needs more positive press to boost sales after all the negative reviews about poor quality.


----------



## Swanky

It's a Top 10 of Chanel Bags You Should Know, I just took a peek.  I don't read the articles, but wanted to see the context.
My top 10 would differ than yours (general you), I've never been a Classic Flap fan, so although I "know" of them, it's not a bag I think everyone should have in their collection, for example.


----------



## Coach Superfan

Swanky said:


> It's a Top 10 of Chanel Bags You Should Know, I just took a peek.  I don't read the articles, but wanted to see the context.
> My top 10 would differ than yours (general you), I've never been a Classic Flap fan, so although I "know" of them, it's not a bag I think everyone should have in their collection, for example.


Found the article linked here for those interested. I wouldn't have thought of half of these bags and it surprises me the 22 is listed since it's so recent. You're right; each of our top 10 will differ. This list is subjective.


----------



## tomiisinoyee

PurseCloset said:


> View attachment 5590433
> View attachment 5590434
> 
> 22A Caramel Chanel 19. Someone tell me if this looks like 21P other than the name of the bag


I have both and 21p leather is much thicker and the shade of brown is different


----------



## PurseCloset

tomiisinoyee said:


> I have both and 21p leather is much thicker and the shade of brown is different


Yeah, i thought so too from all the research i have done with 21P leather. It does look poofier from many an instagram photos.

Actually despite all said about Chanel's quality, I still like Chanel's sense of aesthetics with her large repertoire, variety and highly versatile stylish designs which can complement almost any occasions, outfit and also the mood of the wearer.
The intricate design and detail that went into that bag is evident as you can study every part of the bag like the quilts, the threading, the flaps, the logo , the shape, colour and every fold of the leather,  the different texture,  the chains, the straps etc so many things going on there.
 There is evidently careful design thinking that went into the construct of the bag whether it is the classic, the 19, the boy, the gabrielle, the coco, the minis, the heart bag, S22 etc so many types of designs , in fact too many! Hope this is not the reason why quality is compromised if their attention is stretched so thinly across that many product lines including RTW, beauty products! Think LV is the other fashion house with as many bag varieties n other stuff


----------



## gail13

The designs are what draw us in yes, but I have to disagree with the careful design. It's not only Chanel who seems to miss here,  but this is the thread we are in. I think of all the tiny bags that are really unusable. Are they cute-yes. Are they functional -no. So many bags could benefit from another inch to fit a phone. 

Crossbody bags are what most people seem to be looking for and most of these styles have very short drops. The bags like the clothing are geared mostly toward another market with shorter clientele.  Most of the front or back pockets are not functional. If you were to gather a group of customers together and do a focus group on bag design, I think they would ask for different features.  

It depends what you are looking for.


----------



## zaraha

gail13 said:


> The designs are what draw us in yes, but I have to disagree with the careful design. It's not only Chanel who seems to miss here,  but this is the thread we are in. I think of all the tiny bags that are really unusable. Are they cute-yes. Are they functional -no. So many bags could benefit from another inch to fit a phone.
> 
> Crossbody bags are what most people seem to be looking for and most of these styles have very short drops. The bags like the clothing are geared mostly toward another market with shorter clientele.  Most of the front or back pockets are not functional. If you were to gather a group of customers together and do a focus group on bag design, I think they would ask for different features.
> 
> It depends what you are looking for.


So much for the sustainability concept that chanel is trying to achieve ha? Micro bag with no use, can’t even fit a credit card on some.  They should be under necklace/belt accessories


----------



## pinky7

Not meaning to hijack this thread( this is kind of relevant) but I’m having this same exact issue Tracey is having, but it is NOT just isolated to Chanel. This is my Lady Dior  Diamond Motif in the all black leather, and it too has this strange peeling on the handle and I’ve only worn this a few times. I’m just posting this as a warning to everyone to just be careful what you buy, even outside of Chanel, as this issue isn’t solely isolated to this one company and it can affect all brands. I think this topic, as a whole, deserves awareness because nobody wants to make thousand(s) dollar mistakes


----------



## JamaisAssez

Glitterbomb said:


> RTW with buttons commonly falling off, that you have to go out of your way to request to be reinforced while purchasing?





rainbowneko said:


> If Chanel really reinvesting in the business, why do people keep raising quality issues even in RTW.





jelliedfeels said:


> this is the same company which tells people they should only expect their leather bags to last a season or only wear RTW a few times as it is ‘fashion’ we can extrapolate from that how seriously they take sustainability.


Speaking of RTW, @TraceySH, you're going to love this:








I don't know about you, but I flat out refuse buying a sweater with holes like this for 3,500 dollars. With 47% polyamide. H&M Premium Selection does better quality than this. 

I reckon the markup on this is at least 100x, as in, it cost $35 to make something like this, labour and raw materials included. Chanel is fast fashion for the rich.


----------



## CrazyCool01

JamaisAssez said:


> Speaking of RTW, @TraceySH, you're going to love this:
> 
> View attachment 5593693
> 
> View attachment 5593694
> 
> View attachment 5593695
> 
> 
> I don't know about you, but I flat out refuse buying a sweater with holes like this for 3,500 dollars. With 47% polyamide. H&M Premium Selection does better quality than this.
> 
> I reckon the markup on this is at least 100x, as in, it cost $35 to make something like this, labour and raw materials included. Chanel is fast fashion for the rich.


Omg is this Chanel RTW !? Omg and costs 3500$?


----------



## cerulean blue

CrazyCool01 said:


> Omg is this Chanel RTW !? Omg and costs 3500$?


It's from the Métiers d'Arts 2020/21 collection (21A)


----------



## zaraha

JamaisAssez said:


> Speaking of RTW, @TraceySH, you're going to love this:
> 
> View attachment 5593693
> 
> View attachment 5593694
> 
> 
> I don't know about you, but I flat out refuse buying a sweater with holes like this for 3,500 dollars. With 47% polyamide. H&M Premium Selection does better quality than this.
> 
> I reckon the markup on this is at least 100x, as in, it cost $35 to make something like this, labour and raw materials included. Chanel is fast fashion for the rich.


Yup those sweaters with holes looks very sustainable  3% wool is from expensive sheep that lives on Mars.
On second thought I think it’s the design “fashion” they are not holes


----------



## TraceySH

JamaisAssez said:


> Speaking of RTW, @TraceySH, you're going to love this:
> 
> View attachment 5593693
> 
> View attachment 5593694
> 
> View attachment 5593695
> 
> 
> I don't know about you, but I flat out refuse buying a sweater with holes like this for 3,500 dollars. With 47% polyamide. H&M Premium Selection does better quality than this.
> 
> I reckon the markup on this is at least 100x, as in, it cost $35 to make something like this, labour and raw materials included. Chanel is fast fashion for the rich.


Nooooooooo this is atrocious.....pathetic. All cost cutting. ALL cost cutting. And Chanel's RTW has gone up in price so much in the last 3 years. I've bought entirely too much of it, and I too, regret those purchases.


----------



## PurseCloset

gail13 said:


> The designs are what draw us in yes, but I have to disagree with the careful design. It's not only Chanel who seems to miss here,  but this is the thread we are in. I think of all the tiny bags that are really unusable. Are they cute-yes. Are they functional -no. So many bags could benefit from another inch to fit a phone.
> 
> Crossbody bags are what most people seem to be looking for and most of these styles have very short drops. The bags like the clothing are geared mostly toward another market with shorter clientele.  Most of the front or back pockets are not functional. If you were to gather a group of customers together and do a focus group on bag design, I think they would ask for different features.
> 
> It depends what you are looking for.


Ya some bags r really tiny n rather unfunctional. Could qualify as accessories.

For all u know, they may have conducted a focus group to come up with these micro bags

Hence the large repertoire of Chanel to cater to everyone's taste: small bag big bag,  good taste bad taste,  functional non functional, multidimensional.
 Could be losing focus with so many runaway bags n production lines cost that will surely drive up cost


----------



## periogirl28

@JamaisAssez This is the kind of thing  I was referring to in my earlier post. There is no reason to use such a high percentage of polyamide and in a collection which should be celebrating the highest level of craftsmanship and materials possible, short of couture.


----------



## TPFer2015

PurseCloset said:


> Why did you repair your 19? Hardware issues?





PurseCloset said:


> Why did you repair your 19? Hardware issues?


There's a stitch on the leather bit on the long handle that came loose. 

Btw, I am so sad to read that the 22A caramel C19s are deemed so much worse quality than the previous ones, because till now I was simply ecstatic to finally get my hands on it in this colourway. Mine seems fine, except for the loose stitch, but reading all your comments made me upset and feeling disappointed that I paid more (there's been some price increase since 21P) for a lesser bag.


----------



## Swanky

TPFer2015 said:


> There's a stitch on the leather bit on the long handle that came loose.
> 
> Btw, I am so sad to read that the 22A caramel C19s are deemed so much worse quality than the previous ones, because till now I was simply ecstatic to finally get my hands on it in this colourway. Mine seems fine, except for the loose stitch, but reading all your comments made me upset and feeling disappointed that I paid more (there's been some price increase since 21P) for a lesser bag.



Aww, please don’t feel sad. Just because someone online “deems it lesser quality” doesn’t make it so. Enjoy your bag! 
I’ve purchased 5 bags in the last 3 months and I read a handful of people telling me the quality is bad and the service stinks, but it is just not my personal experience.  Enjoy your bag


----------



## ntntgo

TPFer2015 said:


> There's a stitch on the leather bit on the long handle that came loose.
> 
> Btw, I am so sad to read that the 22A caramel C19s are deemed so much worse quality than the previous ones, because till now I was simply ecstatic to finally get my hands on it in this colourway. Mine seems fine, except for the loose stitch, but reading all your comments made me upset and feeling disappointed that I paid more (there's been some price increase since 21P) for a lesser bag.



I don’t think it’s anyone’s intention to make anyone else feel badly about their purchases. At least I hope not. 

This thread has become more about all of us learning from each other & making educated purchases. When people spend their hard earned money on anything, they have a right to know what they’re getting for it. 

Regardless of the factual dissection of the brand, it’s holding company, the quality, etc; what matters is if you’re happy with your bag. If so then that’s all that matters. So enjoy it and don’t spend another thought on the quality of this season vs that season. 

For me, I don’t want the information in this thread to make anyone feel badly about a purchase that they were previously happy with. That doesn’t mean that the information shouldn’t be shared just the same. 

Enjoy your bag!


----------



## TPFer2015

Swanky said:


> Aww, please don’t feel sad. Just because someone online “deems it lesser quality” doesn’t make it so. Enjoy your bag!
> I’ve purchased 5 bags in the last 3 months and I read a handful of people telling me the quality is bad and the service stinks, but it is just not my personal experience.  Enjoy your bag


Thanks hon  for the cheering up and passing on a bit of self-backing & focus. I am first to put my hand up that I am probably easily affected, esp when it comes to a long-sought-after purchase. I am going to attribute it to self-hype more than anything else. Trying to balance between being objective with my own experience vs other ladies' views on here. Taking your lovely advice to enjoy my bag and have deeply fabulous days out with her!


ntntgo said:


> I don’t think it’s anyone’s intention to make anyone else feel badly about their purchases. At least I hope not.
> 
> This thread has become more about all of us learning from each other & making educated purchases. When people spend their hard earned money on anything, they have a right to know what they’re getting for it.
> 
> Regardless of the factual dissection of the brand, it’s holding company, the quality, etc; what matters is if you’re happy with your bag. If so then that’s all that matters. So enjoy it and don’t spend another thought on the quality of this season vs that season.
> 
> For me, I don’t want the information in this thread to make anyone feel badly about a purchase that they were previously happy with. That doesn’t mean that the information shouldn’t be shared just the same.
> 
> Enjoy your bag!


Oh completely, I dont think anyone was being malicious at all, and I think it was actually a number of ladies (so not just one person) who has commented so as I think I saw repeated comments over a variety of threads on the dismal quality of the 22A caramel C19s. I saw number of ppl comment that the 22A caramel shade is uglier or not as nice as the one before and then to see ppl also saying that quality is lesser too, really upset me. And some of these ladies actually own both the 21P and 22A versions, so I respect their views as they are best placed to compare. 
Luxury purchases are after all more of an emotional purchase than a rationale one, and so, whilst I know in my head its only me who matters at the end of the day when it comes to my own bag, I guess the heart takes a different direction sometimes. 
Thanks for the love & support both, back to enjoying my bag!!


----------



## starrysky7

So far I haven't experienced quality issues with Chanel, I actually find everything I have pretty well made. However what I am seeing in some cases does concern me and I believe is an issue for the image of the brand. And I do believe that the more prices go up, the more nitpicky people will become about quality.


----------



## katlina

pinky7 said:


> Not meaning to hijack this thread( this is kind of relevant) but I’m having this same exact issue Tracey is having, but it is NOT just isolated to Chanel. This is my Lady Dior  Diamond Motif in the all black leather, and it too has this strange peeling on the handle and I’ve only worn this a few times. I’m just posting this as a warning to everyone to just be careful what you buy, even outside of Chanel, as this issue isn’t solely isolated to this one company and it can affect all brands. I think this topic, as a whole, deserves awareness because nobody wants to make thousand(s) dollar mistakes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5593652



thanks for this! I hope u still love ur bag, it’s gorgeous. i assume it’s the attempt to make leather durable by coating it. Happens to luxury and non luxury brands.


----------



## pinky7

katlina said:


> thanks for this! I hope u still love ur bag, it’s gorgeous. i assume it’s the attempt to make leather durable by coating it. Happens to luxury and non luxury brands.



I do still love it, but am contemplating bringing it back because of all the scary things I keep hearing about that model in particular. The prices we pay for this are ridiculous and out of this world


----------



## Liberté

pinky7 said:


> Not meaning to hijack this thread( this is kind of relevant) but I’m having this same exact issue Tracey is having, but it is NOT just isolated to Chanel. This is my Lady Dior  Diamond Motif in the all black leather, and it too has this strange peeling on the handle and I’ve only worn this a few times. I’m just posting this as a warning to everyone to just be careful what you buy, even outside of Chanel, as this issue isn’t solely isolated to this one company and it can affect all brands. I think this topic, as a whole, deserves awareness because nobody wants to make thousand(s) dollar mistakes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5593652


The handles are made with a plastic or some other similar material in the centre and the leather is wrapped around it. You can see it briefly in this video.



There's nothing wrong IMHO with using some support in the centre of rolled handles or thicker handles, if they were filled with leather they would've been heavy and too flexible losing the shape most likely. If the leather is too thin or the leather coating is too thin or can't take moisture / heat / abrasion from being hand carried, the problem that you are highlighting may happen. And that is definitely reason to take it back, I would count it as a design flaw. I have a realyl beaten up LV bag where there's plastic inside the piping that is peeking out. I don't think plastic support inside the piping is ok or necessary, the leather should be thick enough to support piping, but for handles like this I can kind of understand it.


----------



## gere

My 19 family. I got them in lamb, haven’t had any issue so far. At first I have doubt choosing between 22 and 19 tote but after try them both. 19 tote give me feeling of luxurious than 22.


----------



## LVoe121

I literally went to the Chanel boutique few weeks ago to see the grey business affinity flap. The bag had colour transfer all over especially the corner. I pointed it out to the sales associate and she took a bag for a wiping and literally rubbed off the treated leather on the edges. The bag was so flimsy and i left the store in shock.

The quality definitely went down. All my other Chanel bag leather were never thus thin.


----------



## calypsodc

My Caviar WOC purchased two years ago already has a loose thread on part of the quilting and I don’t even use it that much. Definitely feel the quality isn’t what it used to be


----------



## juju2016

papertiger said:


> Wrong order
> 
> I Should Coco: Doo-dah and the Plasificatvion of Luxury


Like the idea but also feels like self-sabotage.


----------



## papertiger

juju2016 said:


> Like the idea but also feels like self-sabotage.



Isn't that what it is?


----------



## juju2016

Chanello_ShopGirl said:


> I totally get what you’re saying, and I agree. I know people who want to own luxury items just because of the brand/name, but actually know nothing of the history of the brand; which is okay, I suppose. But, what’s worse, is they know nothing of the material or truly anything about the quality of the item - again, they just go by the name. I, on the other hand, like to know as much as possible about what I’m buying. It’s so important to be as informed as possible, especially when spending thousands of dollars on things.
> 
> I have enjoyed this thread - and have enjoyed reading your opinions!


Is there any way to quantify bad-quality years, or is it just too variable based on season, material, etc.?  Fashionphile will tacitly acknowledge that the several years from roughly 2015 (?) were iffy. May just be so for CFs...?


----------



## lilly2002

Did anyon send their bags to check what it is really made from? There is a leather expert on tiktok who is doing it and is looking for bags to test out @tanner.leatherstein





ETA he has a short chanel video too


----------



## juju2016

lilly2002 said:


> Did anyon send their bags to check what it is really made from? There is a leather expert on tiktok who is doing it and is looking for bags to test out @tanner.leatherstein
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ETA he has a short chanel video too



Ouch!


----------



## OCMomof3

gere said:


> My 19 family. I got them in lamb, haven’t had any issue so far. At first I have doubt choosing between 22 and 19 tote but after try them both. 19 tote give me feeling of luxurious than 22.


19 tote is so much better looking than the 22, imo!


----------



## Kuschelnudde

So any updates on the Chanel 19 dissection?


----------



## Namwan-

This happened to the tote that I bought last week  Does Chanel usually replace the bags when this happens?


----------



## tenshix

Namwan- said:


> This happened to the tote that I bought last week  Does Chanel usually replace the bags when this happens?
> 
> View attachment 5606840
> 
> 
> View attachment 5606841
> 
> 
> View attachment 5606842


Wow this is crazy and ridiculous!! I would contact your SA and see what your options are especially since it’s still a new bag.


----------



## Namwan-

tenshix said:


> Wow this is crazy and ridiculous!! I would contact your SA and see what your options are especially since it’s still a new bag.


I just asked my SA. She told me to bring it in and they will fix it, which will take one month


----------



## tenshix

Namwan- said:


> I just asked my SA. She told me to bring it in and they will fix it, which will take one month


I’m so sorry this happened to you!! I would express huge disappointment with the SA and ask for some sort of compensation; especially since you just got the bag recently, a handle just completely falling out like this is totally unacceptable. I hope they will compensate you somehow.


----------



## Namwan-

tenshix said:


> I’m so sorry this happened to you!! I would express huge disappointment with the SA and ask for some sort of compensation; especially since you just got the bag recently, a handle just completely falling out like this is totally unacceptable. I hope they will compensate you somehow.


Do you think I should go in and talk to my SA again and ask if they could replace it?


----------



## Kuschelnudde

I was shocked by your pictures and I guess you should ask for exchanging the bag. Making you wait for a month is ridiculous.


Namwan- said:


> Do you think I should go in and talk to my SA again and ask if they could replace it?


----------



## Namwan-

Kuschelnudde said:


> I was shocked by your pictures and I guess you should ask for exchanging the bag. Making you wait for a month is ridiculous.


I sent her a message and asked if I could exchange the bag amd she said no, it can only be repaired.


----------



## Roie55

love this guys


lilly2002 said:


> Did anyon send their bags to check what it is really made from? There is a leather expert on tiktok who is doing it and is looking for bags to test out @tanner.leatherstein
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ETA he has a short chanel video too



love this guys videos - they are very informative


----------



## Roie55

Namwan- said:


> This happened to the tote that I bought last week  Does Chanel usually replace the bags when this happens?
> View attachment 5606842


I'm really shocked at the tiny size of that attachment surface area - literally that little piece of leather is carrying the weight of the bag (in 4 spots) There is no distribution of weight, no secure base, WTH ?????!!!!


----------



## fice16

Namwan- said:


> This happened to the tote that I bought last week  Does Chanel usually replace the bags when this happens?
> 
> View attachment 5606840
> 
> 
> View attachment 5606841
> 
> 
> View attachment 5606842



Very sorry this happened to you.  This is totally unacceptable quality of the Chanel bag.
I have several old Chanel bags that I used to carry quite often, and I loaded them a lot (with my heavy wallet, key pouch, and personal belongings, umbrella, etc.).
I carried them for 5 - 10 years, and they never have any problem like this.  One bag has leather loop as support for the metal chain, but it is very sturdy and never break on me.  That leather loop was sawn into the bag itself though..
Please make sure Chanel handle this issue for your properly.  I think you should get a refund or replacement bag for this.


----------



## umamanikam

The local artisans are better than this .We pay only for the name I think .


----------



## mzbaglady1

Namwan- said:


> Do you think I should go in and talk to my SA again and ask if they could replace it?


I would talk to a manager and tell them you want a replacement. Believe me customers have gotten full refunds for defective handbags. I would start looking into disputing charges on my credit card by contacting customer service first and find out what they tell you if Chanel refuses to replace the bag. And I would blast this Company all over various social media platforms for poor customer service if the issue is not resolved in your favor.


----------



## Namwan-

mzbaglady1 said:


> I would talk to a manager and tell them you want a replacement. Believe me customers have gotten full refunds for defective handbags. I would start looking into disputing charges on my credit card by contacting customer service first and find out what they tell you if Chanel refuses to replace the bag. And I would blast this Company all over various social media platforms for poor customer service if the issue is not resolved in your favor.


Thanks so much for the advice! I just sent an email to client care using the form from their website. I said I wanted either a refund or replacement.


----------



## alxyoung

I purchased a classic flap in store last weekend. When I brought it home, unboxed it, and opened the bag to start removing the protective stickers, the corner seam that holds the flaps together completely unraveled. Only a string left holding the corner together.

I immediately went back to the store, and the store manager I spoke to was completely unfazed. Didn’t even apologize for the inconvenience. 

There was no “we’re so sorry this happened, we’ll make it right.” The attitude was “this is nothing, this is handmade, you should keep it.”

They offered to send the bag for repair locally, which would take a week or so. I returned the bag and said I would only consider repurchasing it once I could assess the repair, but would like to be notified when another comes in.

I guarantee, if I don’t repurchase it, it will be put right back in the closet for the next customer. Is that customer going to be told this was bag was repaired? I highly doubt it.


----------



## EpiFanatic

Namwan- said:


> I sent her a message and asked if I could exchange the bag amd she said no, it can only be repaired.


No way would that be acceptable to me. I would meet her in the store and discuss face to face.


----------



## maxroxxherhandbags

Roie55 said:


> I'm really shocked at the tiny size of that attachment surface area - literally that little piece of leather is carrying the weight of the bag (in 4 spots) There is no distribution of weight, no secure base, WTH ?????!!!!


Ditto!
Its a tote bag..therefore designed to carry 'stuff'. not a dainty evening bag.
My only Chanel bag is a vintage Lambskin tote and its as strong as iron...even the Lambskin is thick and shows little wear despite it being a well used bag when I purchased it.
I find it virtually unbelievable that a luxury brand could design and produce a tote with such flimsy strap attachment.
Even a bag from H&M should last longer than this and would certainly be refunded if the strap broke so soon after purchase.


----------



## Kuschelnudde

I would really appreciate an update on whether this 19 dissection is going to happen or not.

The problem I have with this thread is that, although many claim the information here to be ‘evidence’, it is still just conjecture. Unless there is no confirmation from a craftsman that these bags consist of low quality leather, these posts are just speculation. 

With regards to the 19, 22 etc, it may just be that the heavy coating they have changes the properties of the leather as well. How can we tell? I am not a fan of defending these big companies but having an ongoing thread about how their bags are not 100% leather without proof doesn’t convince me either.

And what I also have to say is that willingly cover your expensive af designer bag with harmful substances is the richest thing I have ever seen. Although interesting, the level of decadence was shocking. Sorry for being judgmental but I really felt the need to call that out.


----------



## umamanikam

After seeing a lot of posts and utube videos I have come to the conclusion ,that the bags that have peeled are coated with the shiny material on top of the leather and that has peeled .That does not mean the whole bag is made of bonded leather unless it is completely sliced and then concluded  .It’s just my opinion .


----------



## Kuschelnudde

umamanikam said:


> After seeing a lot of posts and utube videos I have come to the conclusion ,that the bags that have peeled are coated with the shiny material on top of the leather and that has peeled .That does not mean the whole bag is made of bonded leather unless it is completely sliced and then concluded  .It’s just my opinion .


That’s what I also thought.

Yesterday I cleaned and recolored white Hermès sneakers and the coating/color had also peeled in the heel-area due to rubbing of the feet. It looked quite similar to what we‘re seeing here as examples of ‚bonded leather‘. However I believe that Hermes wouldn’t use bonded leather for their sneakers.


----------



## starrysky7

I believe the bonded leather claims were also made by YouTubers to create drama and clicks.


----------



## gail13

I think looking back, and talking to members privately, they aren't sure taking a bag apart will change anyone's mind really and if its worth it to prove the point.  Certain parties can not be named to protect their disclosures and findings, and I think that makes sense. I myself had been told by  a long time SA who has worked with repairs months ago,  that the 22 bags are not full leather...but really does it matter to anyone?  You can take from that what you would like. People love the brand and if they want to buy a bonded leather bag for 6k so be it! 

I'm questioning the seasonable bags as are many of my colleagues but not many want to talk about it publicly. As a consumer, I know when a brand is proud of their quality they miss no opportunity to talk about it at every level. As I look at this brand, I don't see transparency about the leather.  It occurs to me that the only place leather is mentioned is on the website where it refers to a bag as lambskin etc. Someone in this thread mentioned earlier, that a bag can be called lambskin, calfskin or leather using only 40% of real leather I believe. Every consumer who wants transparency should ask for themselves, and it depends on how knowledgable your SA is and if they know the info. Ask yourself what really matters to you going forward.   What does luxury mean to you? What makes that 6k bag worth it? All of us need to answer that question for ourselves.  But know this, most luxury brands are not selling quality. They are selling the story, and the high price.


----------



## Kuschelnudde

gail13 said:


> I think looking back, and talking to members privately, they aren't sure taking a bag apart will change anyone's mind really and if its worth it to prove the point.  Certain parties can not be named to protect their disclosures and findings, and I think that makes sense. I myself had been told by  a long time SA who has worked with repairs months ago,  that the 22 bags are not full leather...but really does it matter to anyone?  You can take from that what you would like. People love the brand and if they want to buy a bonded leather bag for 6k so be it!
> 
> I'm questioning the seasonable bags as are many of my colleagues but not many want to talk about it publicly. As a consumer, I know when a brand is proud of their quality they miss no opportunity to talk about it at every level. As I look at this brand, I don't see transparency about the leather.  It occurs to me that the only place leather is mentioned is on the website where it refers to a bag as lambskin etc. Someone in this thread mentioned earlier, that a bag can be called lambskin, calfskin or leather using only 40% of real leather I believe. Every consumer who wants transparency should ask for themselves, and it depends on how knowledgable your SA is and if they know the info. Ask yourself what really matters to you going forward.   What does luxury mean to you? What makes that 6k bag worth it? All of us need to answer that question for ourselves.  But know this, most luxury brands are not selling quality. They are selling the story, and the high price.



I agree with the points you raise. I also think these points are true even if they were made with the most quality materials since at these prices the value of the materials used is in no way reflected in the price anyway. It’s never ‘worth it’ just for quality and materials used. It’s always about the brand. Why does this thread have so many pages? Because ppl still care about Chanel.

At the same time 100% of this thread, including the example you give, reads like hearsay to me. ‘I heard somebody say that who knows somebody who….’ is not good enough to me in order to make claims of poor leather and quality so I was looking forward to more information. Pity that it’s not going to come so this thread is just a pile of drama to me.


----------



## tenshix

Kuschelnudde said:


> I agree with the points you raise. I also think these points are true even if they were made with the most quality materials since at these prices the value of the materials used is in no way reflected in the price anyway. It’s never ‘worth it’ just for quality and materials used. It’s always about the brand. Why does this thread have so many pages? Because ppl still care about Chanel.
> 
> At the same time 100% of this thread, including the example you give, reads like hearsay to me. ‘I heard somebody say that who knows somebody who….’ is not good enough to me in order to make claims of poor leather and quality so I was looking forward to more information. Pity that it’s not going to come so this thread is just a pile of drama to me.


Hopefully you won’t be unlucky enough to come across a defective bag as others have. The “drama” you refer to is unfortunately other people’s experience with their purchases and everyone has a different tolerance for what is acceptable for a luxury bag. I like to feel and inspect bags directly before purchasing so this helps with the defect rate for me. I don’t purchase ones where the leather/construction feels flimsy or cheap.

I’ve been lucky enough to end up with only minor defects on my Chanel bags but they are still defects. In the two decades I’ve been collecting, I have been purchasing much less of the brand the last 5 years because I feel like the service and quality doesn’t measure up with the price increases they keep doing, but this is personal preference. If you are looking for concrete information as to the 19 bag leather quality I’m sure you could purchase one and bring it to a leathersmith to take apart to assess the quality with your own eyes and see if it’s good enough for you. Best of luck with your purchases.


----------



## Kuschelnudde

tenshix said:


> Hopefully you won’t be unlucky enough to come across a defective bag as others have. The “drama” you refer to is unfortunately other people’s experience with their purchases and everyone has a different tolerance for what is acceptable for a luxury bag. I like to feel and inspect bags directly before purchasing so this helps with the defect rate for me. I don’t purchase ones where the leather/construction feels flimsy or cheap.
> 
> I’ve been lucky enough to end up with only minor defects on my Chanel bags but they are still defects. In the two decades I’ve been collecting, I have been purchasing much less of the brand the last 5 years because I feel like the service and quality doesn’t measure up with the price increases they keep doing, but this is personal preference. If you are looking for concrete information as to the 19 bag leather quality I’m sure you could purchase one and bring it to a leathersmith to take apart to assess the quality with your own eyes and see if it’s good enough for you. Best of luck with your purchases.



Believe me I had quality issues with Chanel and think they should improve their QC for the prices they charge.

With drama I referred to bags not being 100% leather which is, unlike the quality issues which most of us have experienced, just speculation.

Believe me I had my fair share of frustration with the brand and I am not their white knight. But I take issue with pretending that speculation is true just to hype up drama on the internet (YouTube, social media, partially this thread as well)


----------



## gail13

Kuschelnudde said:


> I agree with the points you raise. I also think these points are true even if they were made with the most quality materials since at these prices the value of the materials used is in no way reflected in the price anyway. It’s never ‘worth it’ just for quality and materials used. It’s always about the brand. Why does this thread have so many pages? Because ppl still care about Chanel.
> 
> At the same time 100% of this thread, including the example you give, reads like hearsay to me. ‘I heard somebody say that who knows somebody who….’ is not good enough to me in order to make claims of poor leather and quality so I was looking forward to more information. Pity that it’s not going to come so this thread is just a pile of drama to me.


This thread with all the information in it was posted as a informational post by the OP.  People do not have to see what they don't want to see. If one wants to know what they are buying, consult some of the people you know in the repair business. None of us are gaining anything here. As I see it, Chanel is reading this thread anyway since they have a large team of people dedicated to social media and they had the blog about the 22 bag removed due to all the negative comments. To me, that says volumes.  If they want to talk about the leather quality of the bags we would all  be interested to hear about it.

I think the proof is on them to prove they are selling quality. If not, people are welcome to make the choice they want to. Its been a big eye opener for me and I will stick with bags that I feel ARE quality.  It never crossed my mind to question what the bags were made of and when I asked I was shocked.  A reasonable person expects for this price they are getting 100% leather, thats our mistake. I have now done my research and I know what it is.  I don't want bonded leather for 6k, I don't want it for $100.  

Would it matter if anyone named sources and information?  I have had quite a few SA's message me on other platforms and none of them are defending the brand. But I'm not asking anyone to believe it or not. Just my experience.


----------



## Kuschelnudde

gail13 said:


> Would it matter if anyone named sources and information?


Actually yes. If one makes these serious claims then you should have something concrete that backs it up. Otherwise I’m really questioning the purpose of the discussion here.

I don’t want to turn a blind eye to it that’s why I asked for the dissection project that had been announced in this thread. Yes of course I could do that myself or see a leather specialist but I wanted to wait for the information here first. The fact that it has been quietly dropped just makes me question what this thread was really about after all.


----------



## Swanky

I think it’s reasonable for folks to ask for an update after posts were made that a bag was being destructed. I’ve been waiting as well tbh! Lol

I’ve had no quality issues in my 20 years of purchasing, even with 5 new bags this year.  I see others do experience issues, all experiences are valid!


----------



## TraceySH

To update you ALL, and @Swanky I know you constantly repeat all over TPF that you have indeed bought "5 bags this year", I have just stopped buying and moved on to more cars, diamonds and houses haha. Probably better investments in the long run anyways, and certainly a lot more fun. 

Of the 19 Chanel bags I've purchased this year: 5 are/ were defective, 8 are REV so they are perfect, and 6 are seasonal that are "fine" (19 bags are fine, although I have zero doubt the are 100% leather). After seeing the spongy texture of that lies beneath on the 19 totes, and the chemical smell / plasticky feel (especially when heated) of the 22's, I trust my own opinion about pleather/ vinyl/ bonded leather/ Frankenstein materials used. I've read enough, reached out enough, and confirmed enough ON MY OWN with Chanel and other houses like Dior, emphatically requesting disclosures of 100% leather, only to be told that is not a guarantee. 

Other houses have zero issues disclosing the percentage composition of leather (LV, for instance), and if you do enough research, you will notice that disclosure is happening everywhere now due to exactly the aforementioned shady practices of houses like Dior, Chanel, etc. People are starting to ask, so those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing (pun intended). 

This thread is a diary of sorts for me and others, to disclose what they've seen, experienced, heard, learned or discovered. If anyone here doesn't agree with it, believe it, just move on. Don't keep coming here to defend something, while judging others for the exact thing they are doing the inverse of. 

Good luck to everyone, and happy investing


----------



## Swanky

TraceySH said:


> To update you ALL, and @Swanky I know you constantly repeat all over TPF that you have indeed bought "5 bags this year", I have just stopped buying and moved on to more cars, diamonds and houses haha. Probably better investments in the long run anyways, and certainly a lot more fun.
> 
> Of the 19 Chanel bags I've purchased this year: 5 are/ were defective, 8 are REV so they are perfect, and 6 are seasonal that are "fine" (19 bags are fine, although I have zero doubt the are 100% leather). After seeing the spongy texture of that lies beneath on the 19 totes, and the chemical smell / plasticky feel (especially when heated) of the 22's, I trust my own opinion about pleather/ vinyl/ bonded leather/ Frankenstein materials used. I've read enough, reached out enough, and confirmed enough ON MY OWN with Chanel and other houses like Dior, emphatically requesting disclosures of 100% leather, only to be told that is not a guarantee.
> 
> Other houses have zero issues disclosing the percentage composition of leather (LV, for instance), and if you do enough research, you will notice that disclosure is happening everywhere now due to exactly the aforementioned shady practices of houses like Dior, Chanel, etc. People are starting to ask, so those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing (pun intended).
> 
> This thread is a diary of sorts for me and others, to disclose what they've seen, experienced, heard, learned or discovered. If anyone here doesn't agree with it, believe it, just move on. Don't keep coming here to defend something, while judging others for the exact thing they are doing the inverse of.
> 
> Good luck to everyone, and happy investing



Sorry you've had to read me say that before, you must be exhausted lol
I have used it for context (one being that we were robbed and I was replacing) in my experience that *current bags* have been great for me, personally.  I don't typically buy so many bags in a short period, I'm not a huge spender.
Unfortunately I've had to replace diamonds as well, being robbed is pretty horrific.  We're lucky we're able to do so, right? 

I do maintain that of course people are interested in the outcome of the experiment, it would be pretty fascinating!


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> Sorry you've had to read me say that before, you must be exhausted lol
> I have used it for context (one being that we were robbed and I was replacing) in my experience that *current bags* have been great for me, personally.  I don't typically buy so many bags in a short period, I'm not a huge spender.
> Unfortunately I've had to replace diamonds as well, being robbed is pretty horrific.  We're lucky we're able to do so, right?
> 
> I do maintain that of course people are interested in the outcome of the experiment, it would be pretty fascinating!


I know you have, and I am so incredibly sorry for your ordeal. I am from Texas also, and the crime there has skyrocketed in the beautiful neighborhood I am from. I have plenty of friends that live in Dallas (HP)...you said that's where you are? I would have never thought that amazing part of Dallas would change so drastically. Horrific. Again, I am so sorry. 

If anyone want to stop by and pick up a Chanel at this house, be my guest. Again, I am taking my own (and many people's advice) and moving on. Please do notice that so many comments here have been, if this is such an issue, why do you keep buying? Why do you keep complaining? Why not just move on? 

Well, folks, I did. I said my peace, made changes in my own behavior, and have indeed put my money where my mouth is.


----------



## Swanky

TraceySH said:


> I know you have, and I am so incredibly sorry for your ordeal. I am from Texas also, and the crime there has skyrocketed in the beautiful neighborhood I am from. I have plenty of friends that live in Dallas (HP)...you said that's where you are? I would have never thought that amazing part of Dallas would change so drastically. Horrific. Again, I am so sorry.
> 
> If anyone want to stop by and pick up a Chanel at this house, be my guest. Again, I am taking my own (and many people's advice) and moving on. Please do notice that so many comments here have been, if this is such an issue, why do you keep buying? Why do you keep complaining? Why not just move on?
> 
> Well, folks, I did. I said my peace, made changes in my own behavior, and have indeed put my money where my mouth is.



Thank you! No, not in HP, lots of friends there but we are not.  Luckily I haven't heard any safety issues for them personally, hopefully they stay safe!  Our area doesn't have the kind of scary robberies that some places have; no muggings or car jackings, and they seemed to have watched and waited until we left for dinner, thankfully. 
I mention the # of bags in the short time because it's not my habit, and all the sudden I have the unique experience (at least for me) to have a good # of current bags from different collections in different materials, so I've just offered my perspective and personal experience.


----------



## gail13

Moving on yes. Dealing with constant issues and bags that are peeling (most not covered under warranty because of 'wear issues'). Actual real quality leather does not peel and it does not have a white fluffy subsurface. I'm trying to remember the last time I went to purchase a luxury product and was told by a sales person how great the quality and craftsmanship were.  Not just Chanel, but other brands as well.


----------



## sjunky13

Kuschelnudde said:


> I would really appreciate an update on whether this 19 dissection is going to happen or not.
> 
> The problem I have with this thread is that, although many claim the information here to be ‘evidence’, it is still just conjecture. Unless there is no confirmation from a craftsman that these bags consist of low quality leather, these posts are just speculation.
> 
> With regards to the 19, 22 etc, it may just be that the heavy coating they have changes the properties of the leather as well. How can we tell? I am not a fan of defending these big companies but having an ongoing thread about how their bags are not 100% leather without proof doesn’t convince me either.
> 
> And what I also have to say is that willingly cover your expensive af designer bag with harmful substances is the richest thing I have ever seen. Although interesting, the level of decadence was shocking. Sorry for being judgmental but I really felt the need to call that out.


I think Tracy was sending it to Florida to get the bag analyzed.


----------



## sjunky13

Opps, I guess that is not happening lol. TY for the update....


----------



## ntntgo

sjunky13 said:


> Opps, I guess that is not happening lol. TY for the update....



She was and I had contacted Artbag about deconstructing the bag, which they had agreed to do even though they said it wasn’t necessary as they could say just from looking at the bag. However, they were happy to do it as long as there was an agreed expectation that they were not going to put it back together. She was going to send the bag directly to them or to me, whichever she felt more comfortable with. 
It’s my understanding that Tracey finally got them to take the bag back and refund her money. I think she said that somewhere earlier in this thread. Maybe not. 
I just wanted to clarify since I haven’t had time to be on here in several weeks. 
One last piece of information, Gerry Gallagher from Leather Surgeons will be on a panel of experts at SXSW. There’s no doubt that this question of Chanel will come up considering others who are on the panel. 
Those of you close enough to Austin should try to go. It should be an interesting panel. 
This is the info:
SXSW 2023
Closing the Loop: The Future of Circular Fashion
Speakers
Sarah Davis, Founder and President, Fashionphile
Ali Mize, Director ESG, Belonging, & Corporate Philanthropy, Neiman Marcus
Rahul Malik, Managing Director, North America & Head of New Business, The Business of Fashion
Gerry Gallagher, Founder and Master Leather Craftsman, Leather Surgeons


----------



## sjunky13

ntntgo said:


> She was and I had contacted Artbag about deconstructing the bag, which they had agreed to do even though they said it wasn’t necessary as they could say just from looking at the bag. However, they were happy to do it as long as there was an agreed expectation that they were not going to put it back together. She was going to send the bag directly to them or to me, whichever she felt more comfortable with.
> It’s my understanding that Tracey finally got them to take the bag back and refund her money. I think she said that somewhere earlier in this thread. Maybe not.
> I just wanted to clarify since I haven’t had time to be on here in several weeks.
> One last piece of information, Gerry Gallagher from Leather Surgeons will be on a panel of experts at SXSW. There’s no doubt that this question of Chanel will come up considering others who are on the panel.
> Those of you close enough to Austin should try to go. It should be an interesting panel.
> This is the info:
> SXSW 2023
> Closing the Loop: The Future of Circular Fashion
> Speakers
> Sarah Davis, Founder and President, Fashionphile
> Ali Mize, Director ESG, Belonging, & Corporate Philanthropy, Neiman Marcus
> Rahul Malik, Managing Director, North America & Head of New Business, The Business of Fashion
> Gerry Gallagher, Founder and Master Leather Craftsman, Leather Surgeons


Ty for the post. I am glad Tracey got her money back. I love and respect Gerry . I hope we can watch somewhere.


----------



## mzbaglady1

ntntgo said:


> She was and I had contacted Artbag about deconstructing the bag, which they had agreed to do even though they said it wasn’t necessary as they could say just from looking at the bag. However, they were happy to do it as long as there was an agreed expectation that they were not going to put it back together. She was going to send the bag directly to them or to me, whichever she felt more comfortable with.
> It’s my understanding that Tracey finally got them to take the bag back and refund her money. I think she said that somewhere earlier in this thread. Maybe not.
> I just wanted to clarify since I haven’t had time to be on here in several weeks.
> One last piece of information, Gerry Gallagher from Leather Surgeons will be on a panel of experts at SXSW. There’s no doubt that this question of Chanel will come up considering others who are on the panel.
> Those of you close enough to Austin should try to go. It should be an interesting panel.
> This is the info:
> SXSW 2023
> Closing the Loop: The Future of Circular Fashion
> Speakers
> Sarah Davis, Founder and President, Fashionphile
> Ali Mize, Director ESG, Belonging, & Corporate Philanthropy, Neiman Marcus
> Rahul Malik, Managing Director, North America & Head of New Business, The Business of Fashion
> Gerry Gallagher, Founder and Master Leather Craftsman, Leather Surgeons


Is there a livestream that some of us can watch? Thank you for all  of your valuable information you have provided throughout this thread.


----------



## alxyoung

mzbaglady1 said:


> Is there a livestream that some of us can watch? Thank you for all  of your valuable information you have provided throughout this thread.



During the event, they release select content each day via YouTube, FB, and Twitter.


----------



## EpiFanatic

I’ll just it’s too bad. I was looking forward to a dissected 19.  This long thread and…. Oh well…


----------



## TraceySH

EpiFanatic said:


> I’ll just it’s too bad. I was looking forward to a dissected 19.  This long thread and…. Oh well…


I had suggested I donate a 22 not a 19 to "science", but as @ntntgo stated above, Chanel refunded me for the defective ones...I have since ceased buying anything else as a principled stance due to all the unknowns, what if's, should I use should I not, if I use and it falls apart, will Chanel stand behind it, etc etc. I mean, it's just too much. I do appreciate my SA's who are amazing people, and their SM's who assured me they'd make it right. However, I don't really wanna swim in that lake again for a bit... 

My suggestion as stated above, is to request that Chanel disclose materials used, and percentages of those materials in their products. If they refuse to do so, or ANY house refuses to do so, my assumption would be they are not 100%....


----------



## PurseCloset

I recently brought my Chanel 19 in to the boutique to have a look at the metal hardware due to oxidisation ( apparently this is quite common )  which they helped cleaned up pretty quickly.
I then asked my SA how should I maintain the leather whether to apply leather conditioner etc but she advised against using ANYTHING on the leather at all lest there be any chemical reaction of the leather with the moisturer. She suggested to only use the cloth that came with the bag to clean and that only as she said nowadays they don't know whether they maybe any chemical reaction with the leather bags which are treated (?!?!) 
I asked what if I spilled any beverages on the bag, she reiterated again to only use the cloth that came with the bag ( I hope by now the cloth hasn't given way yet due to its multi-hypenated use) given n not to even use water to clean up.

Is this what your SA would advise how should you to maintain / clean the bag? I mean what do they do at professional bag spa then if not use moisturer or others? It's very disturbing to hear her say this of "there may be chemical reaction"


----------



## katlina

PurseCloset said:


> I recently brought my Chanel 19 in to the boutique to have a look at the metal hardware due to oxidisation ( apparently this is quite common )  which they helped cleaned up pretty quickly.
> I then asked my SA how should I maintain the leather whether to apply leather conditioner etc but she advised against using ANYTHING on the leather at all lest there be any chemical reaction of the leather with the moisturer. She suggested to only use the cloth that came with the bag to clean and that only as she said nowadays they don't know whether they maybe any chemical reaction with the leather bags which are treated (?!?!)
> I asked what if I spilled any beverages on the bag, she reiterated again to only use the cloth that came with the bag ( I hope by now the cloth hasn't given way yet due to its multi-hypenated use) given n not to even use water to clean up.
> 
> Is this what your SA would advise how should you to maintain / clean the bag? I mean what do they do at professional bag spa then if not use moisturer or others? It's very disturbing to hear her say this of "there may be chemical reaction"


That is what they recommend - if you don’t get your bag DIRTY per se it does not need more than the wipe cloth.


----------



## katlina

EpiFanatic said:


> I’ll just it’s too bad. I was looking forward to a dissected 19.  This long thread and…. Oh well…


 I stopped reading 400 pages ago cos I thought this may not go anywhere anyway.


----------



## PurseCloset

katlina said:


> That is what they recommend - if you don’t get your bag DIRTY per se it does not need more than the wipe cloth.


But how would you maintain the bag on a longer term basis, prevent leather from drying etc? Can we even send these bags for professional bag spa if that were the case to just use a cloth to clean up?


----------



## Swanky

PurseCloset said:


> But how would you maintain the bag on a longer term basis, prevent leather from drying etc? Can we even send these bags for professional bag spa if that were the case to just use a cloth to clean up?



They don’t need maintenance in my experience. I’ve never conditioned or put anything on any of mine, they all look the same today as they did when I bought them 20 years ago.


----------



## redwings

TraceySH said:


> I had suggested I donate a 22 not a 19 to "science", but as @ntntgo stated above, Chanel refunded me for the defective ones...I have since ceased buying anything else as a principled stance due to all the unknowns, what if's, should I use should I not, if I use and it falls apart, will Chanel stand behind it, etc etc. I mean, it's just too much. I do appreciate my SA's who are amazing people, and their SM's who assured me they'd make it right. However, I don't really wanna swim in that lake again for a bit...
> 
> My suggestion as stated above, is to request that Chanel disclose materials used, and percentages of those materials in their products. If they refuse to do so, or ANY house refuses to do so, my assumption would be they are not 100%....


Heh , they are still debating to reveal to me the materials and chemicals used on one bag. Not the usual caviar or lambskin. Doctor was asking me to request the info so that they can do an allergy patch test. 

Can‘t do allergy testing , can’t use the bag. That’s the only bag to ever give me hives that then developed into contact dermatitis which I sent pics to Chanel.


----------



## TraceySH

redwings said:


> Heh , they are still debating to reveal to me the materials and chemicals used on one bag. Not the usual caviar or lambskin. Doctor was asking me to request the info so that they can do an allergy patch test.
> 
> Can‘t do allergy testing , can’t use the bag. That’s the only bag to ever give me hives that then developed into contact dermatitis which I sent pics to Chanel.


SO you've asked Chanel to reveal the materials & they have refused? And this is for the 19 or for the 22?


----------



## redwings

TraceySH said:


> SO you've asked Chanel to reveal the materials & they have refused? And this is for the 19 or for the 22?


They didn’t refuse but they didn’t want to give out the information immediately. They only said they review it and it has been two weeks since initial contact with no reply yet.
That wasn’t for 19 or 22 but one of their seasonal mini bags which I thought I will try.


----------



## TraceySH

redwings said:


> They didn’t refuse but they didn’t want to give out the information immediately. They only said they review it and it has been two weeks since initial contact with no reply yet.
> That wasn’t for 19 or 22 but one of their seasonal mini bags which I thought I will try.


When, and hopefully they do, let you know what's "in" or "on" them, let us know! Curious what they would say when pressed. Your issue is pretty reactive....and certainly no fun.


----------



## mzbaglady1

redwings said:


> Heh , they are still debating to reveal to me the materials and chemicals used on one bag. Not the usual caviar or lambskin. Doctor was asking me to request the info so that they can do an allergy patch test.
> 
> Can‘t do allergy testing , can’t use the bag. That’s the only bag to ever give me hives that then developed into contact dermatitis which I sent pics to Chanel.


Oh wow sorry to hear that you are having health issues from your bag. I highly doubt Chanel will be forthcoming in disclosing what type of chemicals are used on their coated handbags. Unless there is a massive amount of customers experiencing similar health issues. I would take my chances and sell the bag even if I had to sell below retail.


----------



## redwings

mzbaglady1 said:


> Oh wow sorry to hear that you are having health issues from your bag. I highly doubt Chanel will be forthcoming in disclosing what type of chemicals are used on their coated handbags. Unless there is a massive amount of customers experiencing similar health issues. I would take my chances and sell the bag even if I had to sell below retail.


They said it may go the way of an exchange if a bag is available, considering I even tried clothing to do an exchange, and considering a refund if I can’t get the type of bags specified. The management is reviewing to make a decision.

I refused store credit because I don’t have a history with the local SAs but overseas and I know SAs will reserve classic quota or nicer bags for VICs.

In my years of buying leather Chanels, this is the first time it happened. My Chanel caviar, galuchat and lamb skin bags never gave me such a reaction.


----------



## redwings

TraceySH said:


> When, and hopefully they do, let you know what's "in" or "on" them, let us know! Curious what they would say when pressed. Your issue is pretty reactive....and certainly no fun.


Update : 
They refunded. No information released.


----------



## Kuschelnudde

Just a hunch, but can you wear costume jewelry ear studs? Some ppl have an allergic reaction to them due to the metal used in them. Maybe there are some metal particles in the coating of the bag which give it the shiny appearance.

All of this is just a wild guess though. It’s ridiculous that they didn’t provide any information.


----------



## redwings

Kuschelnudde said:


> Just a hunch, but can you wear costume jewelry ear studs? Some ppl have an allergic reaction to them due to the metal used in them. Maybe there are some metal particles in the coating of the bag which give it the shiny appearance.
> 
> All of this is just a wild guess though. It’s ridiculous that they didn’t provide any information.


I can’t wear costume jewelry ear studs. Yup, I have nickel allergy and have to stick to certain brands with 18k gold, like Gucci. However that being said, my Chanel coco handle didn’t give me a reaction and I never had the case of hives with the coco handle chain.

They did asked me to provide a medical certificate in which my doctor can’t issue unless they provide the materials or chemicals used so that he can send me for patch testing with a specialist to confirm. So in the end , catch 22 .


----------



## mzbaglady1

Clearly from reading this thread and other social media platforms Chanel does gives refunds when the customer is persistent and a store credit is not an option.


----------



## Swanky

redwings said:


> Update :
> They refunded. No information released.



I’m so happy you got a refund!


----------



## Coach Superfan

redwings said:


> Update :
> They refunded. No information released.





mzbaglady1 said:


> Clearly from reading this thread and other social media platforms Chanel does gives refunds when the customer is persistent and a store credit is not an option.



So basically they prefer to issue a full refund rather than disclose the exact materials due to a medical reaction. Sounds about right.


----------



## mzbaglady1

Coach Superfan said:


> So basically they prefer to issue a full refund rather than disclose the exact materials due to a medical reaction. Sounds about right.


I already knew what Chanel response would be before the person came back  to give an update on this thread. LOL!!!


----------



## PurseCloset

ntntgo said:


> I’m assuming, possibly incorrectly, that you work in finance because you have a better than most understanding of financials. Not to mention access (limited or not) to UK  financials.
> 
> Chanel, Mousse & definitely not Litor as my clients. I do have all 3 of the  conglomerates. LVMH, Kering & Richemont. So I have to be careful trying to access the Chanel accounts.  Hermes was awarded for their financial transparency so it doesn’t take much to get their annual reports.
> 
> To your point #3, you are entirely correct about sustainability. They have no transparency regarding sustainability, DE&I or an org chart, including share holders. Yes folks, there are 14 shareholders in the Chanel Ltd company and they are not all Wertheimers.
> 
> The reason they put out the 2018 annual report was because they were raising capital.
> 
> The $5 billion taken out of Chanel Ltd (yes it was strictly that company within the portfolio) was not used toward the recent purchases of green companies, healthcare (mainly Brightside Health) and their most recent, Evolved by Nature which they put $120 million into. The divestiture in Ulta was a decent sized one.
> Here is a link to Crunchbase that will not require the subscription that my company has. But it will show you the huge amounts of money has been put into other companies.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/mousse-partners/recent_investments
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason I’m spending time in this thread is because I would love people to educate themselves on where their money is going and why quality subsides while prices increase.
> 
> This is the behavior of a VC that is preparing to sell off their most famous name in their portfolio.
> 
> I’d like to reiterate that these are facts, not conjecture or opinions as some have implied





ntntgo said:


> I’m assuming, possibly incorrectly, that you work in finance because you have a better than most understanding of financials. Not to mention access (limited or not) to UK  financials.
> 
> Chanel, Mousse & definitely not Litor as my clients. I do have all 3 of the  conglomerates. LVMH, Kering & Richemont. So I have to be careful trying to access the Chanel accounts.  Hermes was awarded for their financial transparency so it doesn’t take much to get their annual reports.
> 
> To your point #3, you are entirely correct about sustainability. They have no transparency regarding sustainability, DE&I or an org chart, including share holders. Yes folks, there are 14 shareholders in the Chanel Ltd company and they are not all Wertheimers.
> 
> The reason they put out the 2018 annual report was because they were raising capital.
> 
> The $5 billion taken out of Chanel Ltd (yes it was strictly that company within the portfolio) was not used toward the recent purchases of green companies, healthcare (mainly Brightside Health) and their most recent, Evolved by Nature which they put $120 million into. The divestiture in Ulta was a decent sized one.
> Here is a link to Crunchbase that will not require the subscription that my company has. But it will show you the huge amounts of money has been put into other companies.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/mousse-partners/recent_investments
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason I’m spending time in this thread is because I would love people to educate themselves on where their money is going and why quality subsides while prices increase.
> 
> This is the behavior of a VC that is preparing to sell off their most famous name in their portfolio.
> 
> I’d like to reiterate that these are facts, not conjecture or opinions as some have implied.


How prophetic! I suppose the writing is on the wall with these financial statements, the behaviour of jacking up hefty prices to increase profits so that the company value be further increased for a good resale .

Fast forward 3.5 months down the road , we hear "rumours" on YouTube ( re super Dacob's video just two days ago) that Chanel's halted production n preparing to be sold?
Wat do u all think?


----------



## PurseCloset

Very insightful video on the deconstruction of a Chanel woc n it's review of materials used


----------



## mzbaglady1

PurseCloset said:


> Very insightful video on the deconstruction of a Chanel woc n it's review of materials used



Thank you for posting this. I'm sure Chanel will have this account shut down. I'm just waiting for a 22 bag to have a review like this. That day the whole social media platform will crash.


----------



## Kuschelnudde

To be honest, doesn’t he just criticize the heavy caviar finish? I mean we all know that the finish is excessive.

I was very surprised hearing that he praises the construction of the wallet.


----------



## zaraha

Kuschelnudde said:


> To be honest, doesn’t he just criticize the heavy caviar finish? I mean we all know that the finish is excessive.
> 
> I was very surprised hearing that he praises the construction of the wallet.


Yes because he loves natural texture of leather vs embossed!  From what I understood, I think he believes any type of leather can be inside as long as you can hide it with top heavy coat.  I would love to see a 22 on his account too!


----------



## Roie55

PurseCloset said:


> Very insightful video on the deconstruction of a Chanel woc n it's review of materials used



love this guys videos, I follow him as well


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## Nobmaceur13

The tanner.leatherstein video doesnt exactly tell us anything we didn’t already know so I’m not sure what the fuss is about. Seasonal Caviar is very shiny and has a uniform grain which can only come from a finish as seen in his video, there’s no need to cover incredible leather with such a heavy finish so of course they will use regular condition calf leather. The construction is flawless which we knew too, anyone paying £1000 for a wallet is clearly under no illusion they’re paying for the brand name.

The beautiful exclusive boutiques in the best locations in the world, vast multiple collections, the best positioned ads in the glossy magazines and well groomed SAs don’t come for free.


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## redwings

Chanel is not renowned as a haute maroquinerie (leather work specialist), but it is well known as a couturier. So…well…you can’t really expect much from Chanel for a leather bag. In the past, maybe. Not now.

So really, if your Chanel jacket falls apart in a year, then it is really newsflash. If your Chanel bag starts looking rough in a year, well …tough luck, what did you expect?



PurseCloset said:


> Very insightful video on the deconstruction of a Chanel woc n it's review of materials used


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