# The Atlantic: Fashion’s Racism and Classism Are Finally Out of Style



## tulipfield

I feel like this article fits here?









						Fashion’s Racism and Classism Are Finally Out of Style
					

It’s time for the luxury industry to grapple with its history and entrenched hierarchies.




					www.theatlantic.com
				




*Fashion’s Racism and Classism Are Finally Out of Style*
It’s time for the luxury industry to grapple with its history and entrenched hierarchies.
AMANDA MULL2:14 PM ET

Luxury fashion’s love of hierarchies has never been subtle. Telling people what they should look like often also requires telling them what’s unacceptable: To spend money on feeling better, people first need to feel bad. For decades, the industry tolerated nearly no dark skin, fat bodies, wrinkles, or outward indications that a person wasn’t summoned from the recesses of a French executive’s brain and manifested directly onto the banquette at a SoHo restaurant. Any criticisms, the industry shrugged off.

Suddenly, though, it’s the worst time to be peddling European elitism since the French Revolution. As the United States has roiled with soaring unemployment, mass death, and protests against racist state violence, fashion has had to contend with accusations that it long refused to dignify with a response. In June, Yael Aflalo, the CEO of the popular sustainable-fashion brand Reformation, and Leandra Medine Cohen, the influencer behind the style website Man Repeller, both left the companies they founded after their employees accused them of racism and classism. _Vogue’_s longtime editor in chief, Anna Wintour, was recently forced to apologize to her workforce for the publication’s decades of racism in a bid to keep her job.

For the most part, the tales of toxicity in fashion aren’t new. Many of them are based on things done brazenly and in public—a _Vogue_ cover that positioned LeBron James as the brute King Kong to Gisele Bündchen’s blond damsel, Prada lining its boutique windows with figures that evoked Sambo stereotypes. Prominent fashion people are regularly and credibly accused of racism, sexual harassment, labor abuses, and beyond. If fashion as an industry is about the audacious celebration of social dominance, the thinking went, then how could anyone be shocked that it’s a terrible business to work in?

What’s new is everything else: the collective rage sweeping the country, the support for those within the industry who speak up, the fear that those at the top seem to feel. People with little power can imagine better workplaces and lives well within their grasp. It is now not quite so fashionable to be fabulously and unaccountably rich.

But in fashion, envisioning a path forward is particularly complicated. The veneration of whiteness and wealth isn’t merely incidental to the global fashion business, but central to its vision and embedded in its practices, from who gets hired to how things get marketed. Luxury fashion is built on the emotional scaffolding of human aspiration—what happens to the industry when everyone gets sick of worshipping rich white people?

Long before the manufacturing and marketing of clothing became a multibillion-dollar industry, clothing was used to signal status. “Distinguishing clothing has always been important in large-scale societies,” Katalin Medvedev, an international-dress and fashion researcher at the University of Georgia, told me. As societies became less agrarian and more centralized, people started to think of clothing as a way to show their jobs, their social status, their position within the community. In ancient Egypt, for example, female servants wore modest sheaths and plain hairstyles, while noblewomen enjoyed makeup, jewelry, perfume, wigs, and gowns detailed with gold thread. Some examples of early sartorial hierarchies are still visible: Catholic nuns and low-level priests dress simply and identically, humbling themselves and eschewing their personal identities in service of God; papal regalia is heavily embroidered and richly hued, the dress of a man singular in his religious authority. The fashion industry, according to Medvedev, is that basic idea of identity through dress, taken to the logical extreme of capitalism.

It’s a straighter line than it might seem from ancient nobility and religious leaders to globe-trotting social-media influencers raking in millions of dollars a year from fashion endorsements. As the second Industrial Revolution infused capital into the expanding European upper class in the late 19th and early 20th century, fine clothiers and luggage-makers—Burberry, Louis Vuitton, Gucci—sprang up in Britain, France, and Italy to supply the burgeoning aristocracy with the accoutrements of their everyday lives. That meant sharp outerwear for military officers, trunks for international travel via steamship, and fine leather saddles for equestrians. As Europe’s colonial power spread around the world, so did those brands and the aesthetic ideals of the wealthy white Europeans who patronized them.

The fashion industry, like energy or mining, is fundamentally extractive. For generations, Western countries had skilled tradespeople—leatherworkers, embroiderers, couturiers—in spades, but raw materials had to be imported, to be transformed into items that signified “luxury.” Silk came from China, cashmere from Mongolia. Eventually, as brands looked to cut costs, cheap labor came from all over—in the 1970s and ’80s, the manufacturing of textiles and leather goods began to migrate from Western Europe to Asia, Latin America, and Eastern Europe. Much of luxury fashion is now assembled in part in those places and “finished” just enough in Western Europe to get a made in italy or made in francelabel. These marks of European craftsmanship, Medvedev said, encourage consumers to think of a new purchase as part of a centuries-long elite fashion lineage—and to feel as if they themselves are part of that lineage too, if only briefly.

Modern corporations want constant growth, and in fashion that’s impossible without getting into the wallets of regular people looking for a little taste of clout, whether they’re in the growing upper class in East Asia or the Middle East or in newer markets in Brazil or India. Entry-level status symbols—a Gucci belt or Chanel earrings or a Louis Vuitton wallet—covered in conspicuous logos and with prices in the hundreds instead of thousands of dollars are accessible to people with credit cards who want to project economic power they don’t quite have. All of that money, though, still flows back to the wealthy Europeans who have always sat atop the fashion hierarchy. Almost all of the industry’s most successful brands are owned by just two conglomerates, LVMH and Kering, which are controlled by French billionaires, their children, and their inner circles of other European aristocrats. In 2019, the two companies combined for nearly $79 billion in revenue, by today’s exchange rates. Lots of people can buy into their vision of what power looks like, but it’s still their vision.


More than a century after Hermès began outfitting the horsey set and Burberry started making trench coats for British military officers going off to fight in World War I, those same brands form the basis of the global luxury business, inextricable from the white European wealth that created it. The glorification of that history—a brand’s “heritage,” as it is often termed—is central to luxury marketing. Gucci’s horsebit logo and the massive LV-covered trunks often used as decor in Louis Vuitton boutiques are there for a reason. You can still buy a custom saddle from Hermès, although the basis of its business is now handbags that can cost more than $100,000.

That tight control of fashion’s most powerful and influential brands makes it difficult for people outside the well-pedigreed white elite to enter the industry at all, let alone influence how it conceives of luxury. “Fashion is an industry that has a ton of gatekeepers, and there’s a lot of barriers to entry that are pretty subtle,” says Aurora James, the founder and designer of the accessories brand Brother Vellies. Brands and media companies might commit to working with models from more diverse backgrounds or to including more Black celebrities in their ad campaigns or style coverage. But internally, little changes. “When you have just Black models or Black musicians as the only Black women in your sphere, it’s really objectifying,” James told me. “It doesn’t really allow us a space to be intellectuals or businesspeople.”

Although contemporary fashion draws heavily on the aesthetics of Black American culture—streetwear, hip-hop, and high-end sneakers are all crucial to the industry’s current popularity with consumers—its use of those ideas is mostly without paying or acknowledging their originators. Often, those things only come after public pressure, or when a Black person is already so famous and powerful that an association with them isn’t really seen as a risk. In 2017, Gucci, part of the Kering conglomerate, lifted some of the legendary Harlem designer and artist Dapper Dan’s ideas before a public outcry goaded the company into collaborating with him directly. LVMH, which owns Louis Vuitton, Dior, Givenchy, and Fendi, among others, had never named a Black woman to the top creative post of any of its brands until 2019, when it hired Rihanna to start her own luxury-apparel line. The white people usually picked to lead fashion brands are rarely well known outside of the industry itself.

James, a Black woman and the daughter of a Ghanaian immigrant, started her line of sustainable shoes and handbags with $3,500 of personal savings and a spot at a popular New York City flea market. Two years later, her work had turned enough heads to win the CFDA/_Vogue_ Fashion Fund, a prestigious award for American designers early in their careers. In some ways, though, the recognition made her situation more complicated. “My business grew so quickly, but I didn’t have the things that I needed,” she told me. “If you have access to capital, you’re able to grow and scale, but because I didn’t have that access, I ended up in some really bad financial situations,” including one that she likened to “modern-day sharecropping.” She took a loan from someone in the business whom she thought she could trust, but the terms of it bled her dry and did “exponential harm” to her company; she still doesn’t have a business credit card. Across industries, Black-owned companies are twice as likely as white-owned companies to get rejected for traditional loans, and less than 1 percent of Black women who seek venture-capital funding get it. James sees things go differently for her white, well-off peers when success comes knocking and they need cash to meet it: Many upstart young designers are the kinds of people who can get a first round of funding from family and friends, raising six or seven figures with little risk and few strings attached.

Just last week, the fashion industry coughed up another example of the financial dismissiveness with which it treats Black talent: The designer Telfar Clemens was unceremoniously dropped by Gap, which had been promoting a high-profile collaboration with him as recently as January. In an interview with _The New York Times_, Clemens revealed that, even though the collection’s cancellation was caused by the chaos of the pandemic and not through any fault of his own, Gap had paid him only a quarter of his fee for the work he had done so far and then stopped answering his creative director’s emails. (A representative for Gap later apologized for how the situation was handled and said that the remainder of his fee had been paid.)

Washing whiteness out of the hierarchy of fashion wouldn’t just take adjustments to corporate leadership or less exploitative supply chains. It would mean dramatic changes in how wealth accumulates more broadly, and in how we think about nice things and who should have them. A more just industry would exist in a world in which the prices of goods are tied to fair wages for workers and ecologically sound materials, instead of to lavish marketing and events budgets and high executive salaries. It would be a world in which it’s not an unthinkable luxury for anyone to own a warm, smartly cut winter coat or a well-made pair of shoes. It would be a world in which you don’t need generational wealth to get your ideas heard. It would be a world in which European fashion conglomerates no longer have a stranglehold on the goods or images the industry creates, or on the revenue it generates. It would be a world in which more people share power, and in which that power isn’t tied to the hoarding of wealth and resources.

Still, James said she’s optimistic that the industry, and retail in general, can at least improve on the status quo. To prod businesses into change, she started the 15 Percent Pledge, which was first just an Instagram post asking a handful of major retailers, including Target, Whole Foods, Sephora, Saks Fifth Avenue, and Net-a-Porter, to commit to buying 15 percent of the products they stock from Black-owned brands, a proportion that mirrors Black people’s slice of the American populace. James thinks that this kind of program can do material good for Black designers and creatives in a way that companies’ internal diversity-and-inclusion programs haven’t: Brother Vellies’s first big wholesale order, from the trendsetting boutique Opening Ceremony, changed the trajectory of her career. So far, both Sephora and Rent the Runway have signed up for the program, and the 15 Percent Pledge has transformed into a nonprofit organization that will try to hold those who join accountable to their promise to spread the wealth.


Although trying to reform fashion’s worst offenders through outside initiatives is probably futile, both Medvedev and James see a shift coming for the luxury industry that they say might do the trick. “It’s not over, but it will be over very soon that people will buy a sweater for $2,000,” Medvedev told me. “I think people begin to reevaluate their value system, or at least question it.” She thinks that COVID-19 will hasten this change, as income inequality becomes a more widely considered moral hazard and people shy away from signifiers of unabashed, unapologetic wealth. If your brand’s bottom line is based on logo-covered handbags, the look might be a little too “Let them eat cake” for post-pandemic economic blight, even if your customers’ wealth remains intact.

The industry’s classic marketing moves, so deeply tied to a veneration of white beauty standards, might also not be long for this world. “For a long time, the fashion industry has worked to make women feel like they were less than,” James said. “They were trying to get them to feel bad about themselves, to want to purchase a product in hopes of feeling better. But, ultimately, you’re purchasing from a place of shame.” For Brother Vellies, her goal is to try to reimagine luxury around what makes people actually feel _good_ in a pair of shoes or when carrying a new handbag, and for those things to be made responsibly.

Some brands, James acknowledged, might not survive a change in how people want to spend their money, which will become apparent when a freshly radicalized generation eventually needs to buy some new clothes for going outside. For brands that have clung to fashion’s ingrained elitism, she thinks it might be too late to save them: “If you systematically created your business with the intent of celebrating certain ideals, and everything has been built on that structure, then it’s rotted from the root.”


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## Vlad

Just seeing the title of the thread I knew that it was our very own @amanda who wrote the piece. I am sure it's outstanding, will read a little later.


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## Yoshi1296

Amandaaaaa!!! Miss her! This article is fantastic!


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## QuelleFromage

This is an amazing piece. I can't believe Gap messed up a collab with Telfar, who is not just talented but a true phenomenon. I would think brands are pounding on his door

It has taken tPF a while to get here (I have had to battle mods harder than should ever be necessary to address racist posts) but so glad the forum is now leading the charge.


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## Yoshi1296

QuelleFromage said:


> This is an amazing piece. I can't believe Gap messed up a collab with Telfar, who is not just talented but a true phenomenon. I would think brands are pounding on his door
> 
> It has taken tPF a while to get here (I have had to battle mods harder than should ever be necessary to address racist posts) but so glad the forum is now leading the charge.



I agree! I think Telfar is doing a fantastic job in changing the fashion industry. He has such a cool and unique approach to casual streetwear. Plus, his vegan bags are a major hit, they're always sold out! I've been trying to get one for months now and I always miss them.


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## MCF

QuelleFromage said:


> This is an amazing piece.
> 
> It has taken tPF a while to get here *(I have had to battle mods harder than should ever be necessary to address racist posts)* but so glad the forum is now leading the charge.



Thank you for battling.


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## chicinthecity777

What do people feel about this? A known white member here who has a history of posting racist comments has a new avatar (since recent weeks) of what clearly looks like an African woman's head portrait. Is this not considered at least odd?


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## limom

chicinthecity777 said:


> What do people feel about this? A known white member here who has a history of posting racist comments has a new avatar (since recent weeks) of what clearly looks like an African woman's head portrait. Is this not considered at least odd?


Are you reporting the posts?
Some people just trolls....


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## chicinthecity777

limom said:


> Are you reporting the posts?
> Some people just trolls....


A member has reported this but nothing has been done. Please note this is her Avatar, not her posts. She has made racist posts before and some of her posts were deleted. But this time it's just the avatar.


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## chicinthecity777

limom said:


> Are you reporting the posts?
> Some people just trolls....


She's a long term member and an OG. So not just some random trolls.


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## OriginalBalenciaga

I think as times passes we're learning the difference between performative allyship and lasting commitment to change.


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## limom

chicinthecity777 said:


> She's a long term member and an OG. So not just some random trolls.


KK.


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## MCF

I'm not seeing the avatar on this thread so I'm not too sure what you're talking about.


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## phishfan

I’ve only been on TPF a short while but have called out racist posts when I see them. Needless to say, this happens quite often on this forum, which after all is focused on luxury brands (many of which are based in Europe) and wary of fakes (which some users automatically think Chinese sellers are dealing). I have been disappointed by how moderators handle it (several times they just lock the post and prevent people from commenting on it anymore). They are intervening but not in a helpful way.


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## chicinthecity777

MCF said:


> I'm not seeing the avatar on this thread so I'm not too sure what you're talking about.


I am referring to some who hasn't posted in this thread. I am talking about a member here having a very questionable avatar and nothing has been done about it.


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## A1aGypsy

Is it the image you find concerning or the fact that someone who has made racist comments has an (otherwise acceptable) image of a POC in their avatar?


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## Graw

chicinthecity777 said:


> What do people feel about this? A known white member here who has a history of posting racist comments has a new avatar (since recent weeks) of what clearly looks like an African woman's head portrait. Is this not considered at least odd?



That’s odd.


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## chicinthecity777

A1aGypsy said:


> Is it the image you find concerning or the fact that someone who has made racist comments has an (otherwise acceptable) image of a POC in their avatar?


The latter.


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## chicinthecity777

Graw said:


> That’s odd.





A1aGypsy said:


> Is it the image you find concerning or the fact that someone who has made racist comments has an (otherwise acceptable) image of a POC in their avatar?


This person has made very well disguised racist comments before and multiple members reported her posts and the incidents were also discussed in the OG section. Some members were quite disgusted by those comments and some of her posts were deleted. Then we moved on and after a while, more well disguised racist posts from this member but nothing was ever done for a long while. Then this avatar appeared all of a sudden after George Flylod incident. I just personally find it very odd.


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## chicinthecity777

Oh well, maybe I am overly sensitive. Maybe I should take a break from TPF.


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## chicinthecity777

Duplicate.


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## Graw

chicinthecity777 said:


> Oh well, maybe I am overly sensitive. Maybe I should take a break from TPF.


. 

You shouldn’t have to take a break from tpf because someone is making racist statements then gaslighting with an avatar.  The person may have learned their lesson or is trolling.


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## MCF

chicinthecity777 said:


> I am referring to some who hasn't posted in this thread. I am talking about a member here having a very questionable avatar and nothing has been done about it.



Oh. I'm sorry. I misunderstood what you said.


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## A1aGypsy

I agree with Graw. No one should get away with racist comments nor should you feel overly sensitive about finding it suspicious.  

However, it’s hard to have a more specific opinion beyond that, not knowing the details or the background (I’m not OG so I cannot see those posts). I really hope this is a case of a person seeing the error in her ways.


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## limom

chicinthecity777 said:


> I am referring to some who hasn't posted in this thread. I am talking about a member here having a very questionable avatar and nothing has been done about it.


Is it the picture of a famous AA or just a random person?


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## GhstDreamer

limom said:


> Is it the picture of a famous AA or just a random person?


I am an OG and now I am curious....


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## chicinthecity777

MCF said:


> Oh. I'm sorry. I misunderstood what you said.


No need to apologise. I am struggling to find a thread to discuss this. I saw the thread and thought it's related so I posted.


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## dooneybaby

If someone is posting things that are clearly racist, then call her out! Don't beat around the bush.


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## Megs

chicinthecity777 said:


> I am referring to some who hasn't posted in this thread. I am talking about a member here having a very questionable avatar and nothing has been done about it.



Can you PM me about it? I haven't seen a report about it (I may have missed it) but for sure haven't gotten a message about it. 

I know from my standpoint, I go thru reported posts and do my best (as do all the mods) to adhere to our TOS. We would delete anything racist when we see it, but there are things that I miss. Always PM me if you see something reported that wasn't acted on in a way that you see fit. 

There is a lot of posts on the forum in a lot of areas, so we are always trying to watch everything and handle it appropriately. We of course miss things, but if you see something and see nothing has been done, tell me please!


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## MCF

chicinthecity777 said:


> No need to apologise. *I am struggling to find a thread to discuss this*. I saw the thread and thought it's related so I posted.


I think racism and/or discrimination is something that is essential to discuss. I do see how it could become extremely heated and why the mods would just want to shut it down or delete the evidence. Perhaps we need a comprehensive guide to what and what is not tolerated on the forum. That way if someone challenges something we could refer them to the guidelines. Not a perfect solution but a start. Also, instead of just closing a thread or removing a post the mods could put something up over the post like "This post violates the Purse Forum's rules/policy on (insert whatever it is)." 

If people don't like it, too bad. If someone says it infringes on their right of free speech is doesn't. They exercised their right and said it. The mods exercised their right and removed/covered it up. Racism should not be tolerated. That being said, I think a lot of us, every once in awhile, say something that could be racist or discriminatory without us knowing or that being our intention. We need to be made aware of our transgression and learn from it. I know it can be embarrassing or hurtful when we are called out but if we stop and think not of ourselves but others and how we might have hurt them it makes us better people.


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## MCF

Megs said:


> Can you PM me about it? I haven't seen a report about it (*I may have missed it*) but for sure haven't gotten a message about it.
> 
> I know from my standpoint, I go thru reported posts and do my best (as do all the mods) to adhere to our TOS. We would delete anything racist when we see it, but *there are things that I miss*. Always PM me if you see something reported that wasn't acted on in a way that you see fit.
> 
> There is a lot of posts on the forum in a lot of areas, so we are always trying to watch everything and handle it appropriately. We of course miss things, but if you see something and see nothing has been done, tell me please!


To expand on what Megs said sometimes people who are not of color or of a background that has been routinely discriminated against, i.e. a lot of white people including myself, don't see when something is offensive. Sometimes we need it explained to us.


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## chicinthecity777

dooneybaby said:


> If someone is posting things that are clearly racist, then call her out! Don't beat around the bush.


I can't because being openly confrontational towards a named member is against the rules! As previously already seen many times, the forum don't want open arguements. In this instance, a report has been made but resulted in no action. Hence I raised it here generally to see what do people think about it.


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## chicinthecity777

Megs said:


> Can you PM me about it? I haven't seen a report about it (I may have missed it) but for sure haven't gotten a message about it.
> 
> I know from my standpoint, I go thru reported posts and do my best (as do all the mods) to adhere to our TOS. We would delete anything racist when we see it, but there are things that I miss. Always PM me if you see something reported that wasn't acted on in a way that you see fit.
> 
> There is a lot of posts on the forum in a lot of areas, so we are always trying to watch everything and handle it appropriately. We of course miss things, but if you see something and see nothing has been done, tell me please!


Thank you for your reply. I will PM you further details when I get a chance.


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## papertiger

chicinthecity777 said:


> No need to apologise. I am struggling to find a thread to discuss this. I saw the thread and thought it's related so I posted.



I saw, I noted, it's weird. I checked, unfortunately, it doesn't violate any tPF rules. Some people (of any background) can be racist towards _certain_ races and nationalities and think they're not being racist. While it's fashionable to look 'woke' in one direction, the same people often do exactly what they're telling others not to do. I actually believe she's being genuine. 

BTW, I think it's great that people question beauty and fashion standards, but since luxury comes from court (as in royal courts) it's a bit rich (pun intended) to complain (or even explain) that it operates as an exclusive club. That's kinda the point. Just check out tPF's members' lists of bag hierarchies. Are we arguing for rich white people to keep their money? I don't know if people know this, but not all rich people are white either. I am not in the market to buy a $100K handbag nor fast fashion brands, but I have absolutely nothing against someone doing so if that's their heart's desire. 

There's very few industries that women from all round the world make-up such a large percentage of workers, some the bread-winners of their families, some of these rely on commerce to feed themselves and others. Even in the West, it nearly always takes 2 wages to pay-off an average mortgage and keep a roof over head. Fashion has been just about the only creative industry actually making any money in recent times.  To pick on fashion as the evil villain and leave out the rest of industry is also a tradition - of patriarchy. Only 14% of women run the top 50 fashion brands - and most of it is not menswear https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdan...n-power-positions-mean-more-female-customers/  If you want to know where most of the wealth is, look globally, it's mostly not in female hands. 

Racism towards anyone is not OK, including on tPF (please report if you see, that is in the rules)


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## chicinthecity777

papertiger said:


> I saw, I noted, it's weird. I checked, unfortunately, it doesn't violate any tPF rules. Some people (of any background) can be racist towards _certain_ races and nationalities and think they're not being racist. While it's fashionable to look 'woke' in one direction, the same people often do exactly what they're telling others not to do. I actually believe she's being genuine.
> 
> BTW, I think it's great that people question beauty and fashion standards, but since luxury comes from court (as in royal courts) it's a bit rich (pun intended) to complain (or even explain) that it operates as an exclusive club. That's kinda the point. Just check out tPF's members' lists of bag hierarchies. Are we arguing for rich white people to keep their money? I don't know if people know this, but not all rich people are white either. I am not in the market to buy a $100K handbag nor fast fashion brands, but I have absolutely nothing against someone doing so if that's their heart's desire.
> 
> There's very few industries that women from all round the world make-up such a large percentage of workers, some the bread-winners of their families, some of these rely on commerce to feed themselves and others. Even in the West, it nearly always takes 2 wages to pay-off an average mortgage and keep a roof over head. Fashion has been just about the only creative industry actually making any money in recent times.  To pick on fashion as the evil villain and leave out the rest of industry is also a tradition - of patriarchy. Only 14% of women run the top 50 fashion brands - and most of it is not menswear https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdan...n-power-positions-mean-more-female-customers/  If you want to know where most of the wealth is, look globally, it's mostly not in female hands.
> 
> Racism towards anyone is not OK, including on tPF (please report if you see, that is in the rules)


Hi PT, thanks for checking. I understand that having a such image as an avatar itself isn't against any forum rules. But in this context it is very questionable given the history of the poster. I am having off-line conversations about it with fellow TPF-ers and it doesn't not sit well with some of us. I can't force the forum admins to do anything if they don't want to but I need to call it out.


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## chicinthecity777

papertiger said:


> I saw, I noted, it's weird. I checked, unfortunately, it doesn't violate any tPF rules. Some people (of any background) can be racist towards _certain_ races and nationalities and think they're not being racist. While it's fashionable to look 'woke' in one direction, the same people often do exactly what they're telling others not to do. I actually believe she's being genuine.
> 
> BTW, I think it's great that people question beauty and fashion standards, but since luxury comes from court (as in royal courts) it's a bit rich (pun intended) to complain (or even explain) that it operates as an exclusive club. That's kinda the point. Just check out tPF's members' lists of bag hierarchies. Are we arguing for rich white people to keep their money? I don't know if people know this, but not all rich people are white either. I am not in the market to buy a $100K handbag nor fast fashion brands, but I have absolutely nothing against someone doing so if that's their heart's desire.
> 
> There's very few industries that women from all round the world make-up such a large percentage of workers, some the bread-winners of their families, some of these rely on commerce to feed themselves and others. Even in the West, it nearly always takes 2 wages to pay-off an average mortgage and keep a roof over head. Fashion has been just about the only creative industry actually making any money in recent times.  To pick on fashion as the evil villain and leave out the rest of industry is also a tradition - of patriarchy. Only 14% of women run the top 50 fashion brands - and most of it is not menswear https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdan...n-power-positions-mean-more-female-customers/  If you want to know where most of the wealth is, look globally, it's mostly not in female hands.
> 
> Racism towards anyone is not OK, including on tPF (please report if you see, that is in the rules)


We also have additional information which led us to believe she's not genuine in this instance. 

But like I said, I can't force the admin to do anything. I for once want to see action rather than just lip service in fighting against racism.


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## V0N1B2

chicinthecity777 said:


> Hi PT, thanks for checking. I understand that having a such image as an avatar itself isn't against any forum rules. But in this context it is very questionable given the history of the poster. I am having off-line conversations about it with fellow TPF-ers and it doesn't not sit well with some of us. I can't force the forum admins to do anything if they don't want to but I need to call it out.


I know who you’re referring to but I just assumed the pic was trying to support BLM or something. I dunno. I did think it was an odd choice tho....


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## chicinthecity777

V0N1B2 said:


> I know who you’re referring to but I just assumed the pic was trying to support BLM or something. I dunno. I did think it was an odd choice tho....


I will PM you.


----------



## papertiger

chicinthecity777 said:


> We also have additional information which led us to believe she's not genuine in this instance.
> 
> But like I said, I can't force the admin to do anything. I for once want to see action rather than just lip service in fighting against racism.



Definitely DM Megs then


----------



## Swanky

I haven’t seen anything like that reported, but I will say that we’ve never allowed discussing members publicly like this. A PM to admins is a far better idea so it gets right to us.


----------



## mrsinsyder

It's really sad that the forum isn't taking this stuff seriously. Who cares if it's not explicitly against the rules? The mods issue infractions for things that aren't against the rules ALL THE TIME. This is exactly why my inbox is *full of people of color saying they don't want to use the site anymore*, @Megs. You have someone making virtual blackface here and it IS NOT OKAY.


----------



## mrsinsyder

And, lest anyone wonder where TPF stands, this is the diversity of the TPF blog authors.


----------



## dooneybaby

mrsinsyder said:


> And, lest anyone wonder where TPF stands, this is the diversity of the TPF blog authors.
> 
> View attachment 4786899


In all fairness, has anyone besides a white woman offered to write for TPF? I'm a black woman and there's nothing I would enjoy more, but because I work for a well-known news organization, my job prevents me from doing so.


----------



## dooneybaby

Swanky said:


> I haven’t seen anything like that reported, but I will say that we’ve never allowed discussing members publicly like this. A PM to admins is a far better idea so it gets right to us.


Well, I can't accuse anyone of being racist if I have no idea what was said. So as far as I'm concerned, they're just accusations to me. I can't judge someone based off of what someone else says about them. 
I'm a black woman, and in all honesty, something I commented about years ago was interpreted as being racist, when all I was trying to point out was that many Westerners think they're being politically correct when they don't acknowledge cultural differences, and that many times it has the effect of being dismissive and not embracing those differences.


----------



## chicinthecity777

Just want to say a big thank you for those who PM-ed me! It's reassuring to know that others have also felt the same independently before I posted here so I am not as over-reacting as I thought. I will be compiling some details and send it to Megs.


----------



## dooneybaby

chicinthecity777 said:


> Just want to say a big thank you for those who PM-ed me! It's reassuring to know that others have also felt the same independently before I posted here so I am not as over-reacting as I thought. I will be compiling some details and send it to Megs.


I'm not accusing anyone of overreacting. I just wish I knew what you were talking about because I haven't seen those posts. I'm essentially in the dark about this, and it would be helpful if you would at least say in what thread those comments appear. Having been on the receiving end of racism all of my life (including being spat on), I have ZERO tolerance for it, and I have no problems putting a "Karen" in her place.


----------



## chicinthecity777

dooneybaby said:


> I'm not accusing anyone of overreacting. I just wish I knew what you were talking about because I haven't seen those posts. I'm essentially in the dark about this, and it would be helpful if you would at least say in what thread those comments appear. Having been on the receiving end of racism all of my life (including being spat on), I have ZERO tolerance for it, and I have no problems putting a "Karen" in her place.


I cannot tell you on the public forum. As I have said before. this is against the forum rule. If you are interested, please PM me.


----------



## dooneybaby

chicinthecity777 said:


> I cannot tell you on the public forum. As I have said before. this is against the forum rule. If you are interested, please PM me.


I honestly don't know how to PM on this site. I've never had to do it before.


----------



## chicinthecity777

dooneybaby said:


> I honestly don't know how to PM on this site. I've never had to do it before.


Let me PM you.


----------



## mrsinsyder

dooneybaby said:


> In all fairness, has anyone besides a white woman offered to write for TPF? I'm a black woman and there's nothing I would enjoy more, but because I work for a well-known news organization, my job prevents me from doing so.


I’m a woman of color and I have, so yes.


----------



## mrsinsyder

chicinthecity777 said:


> Just want to say a big thank you for those who PM-ed me! It's reassuring to know that others have also felt the same independently before I posted here so I am not as over-reacting as I thought. I will be compiling some details and send it to Megs.


I’ve received tons of PMs as well; some members are afraid to even click the like button on my post and then be targeted by moderators they feel have acted racially insensitive in the past. Wow.


----------



## limom

mrsinsyder said:


> I’ve received tons of PMs as well; some members are afraid to even click the like button on my post and then be targeted by moderators they feel have acted racially insensitive in the past. Wow.


Wow!
People are scared to be targeted? This is deep.


----------



## Megs

mrsinsyder said:


> It's really sad that the forum isn't taking this stuff seriously. Who cares if it's not explicitly against the rules? The mods issue infractions for things that aren't against the rules ALL THE TIME. This is exactly why my inbox is *full of people of color saying they don't want to use the site anymore*, @Megs. You have someone making virtual blackface here and it IS NOT OKAY.



I still have no received a message letting me know which member has an avatar that I need to look at. I know a poster said she'd PM me, but I am going to reach out as I have yet to hear. I can't look into it without knowing. I've PMd other members is this thread to share with me if they know, as I would like to look into this ASAP.

I am always open to anyone reaching out with any concern at any time. The last thing I want is for our site to feel unwelcoming because people feel there is any racist remarks/actions being allowed to happen here. 

I think a lot of members assume we see every post, but we do not. I rely on reports and as I said before, there are times I miss something. We have a lot of forums, a lot of posts, a lot of reports. If you see something that remains live on the site, PM me directly. Or email me. I have even talked on the phone to members and am happy to do that as well. Please reach out and make sure you get in front of me so I can see it and handle it. 




dooneybaby said:


> In all fairness, has anyone besides a white woman offered to write for TPF? I'm a black woman and there's nothing I would enjoy more, but because I work for a well-known news organization, my job prevents me from doing so.



We have a handful of freelance writers that have written for us over the years. These are people that reached out and pitched stories that we believed were a good fit for our audience, based on their writing skills and content. I don't ask people for photos of themselves and as this is an online based site, I haven't met majority of people that we've had write for us aside from when we had our team in NYC. Unless someone explicitly shares it, I don't know their race when they are pitching a story. The images that were pulled of our writers up thread do not include every freelance writer, and I am not able to share people's ethnicities/races without their consent, but that is not a full look at who has written for us or their background. 

Right now we only have 3 people full time on the team: @Vlad, myself, and Kaitlin. We were looking to expand our freelance writers but needed to pause this due to the pandemic and it's financial impact on our business. 

I would love to have more writers from a diverse background on PurseBlog, I think it's incredibly important for voices from different backgrounds, races, ethnicities, and those who like different bags for different reasons to be featured. That is something we are focusing on as our business picks back up.   



chicinthecity777 said:


> Just want to say a big thank you for those who PM-ed me! It's reassuring to know that others have also felt the same independently before I posted here so I am not as over-reacting as I thought. I will be compiling some details and send it to Megs.



I'm PMing you as I haven't heard anything yet! 



mrsinsyder said:


> I’m a woman of color and I have, so yes.



When Vlad put out his call out for writers, we actually didn't get a chance to move forward with the submissions and in the past months haven't been able to take on the freelance projects we would have liked to. But I did look at your submission this morning, and based on what you sent, I would have no way of knowing you were a woman of color unless you explicitly let us know. 

As I said above, I think it is incredibly important to tell the story of different people with different backgrounds, races, ethnicities and their view and treatment surrounding the world of designer bags that we all love. We do share a really wide range of Closet Confessionals and have featured different men and women of color there. Again, I know this only because they explicitly stated this as part of their confessional. 



mrsinsyder said:


> I’ve received tons of PMs as well; some members are afraid to even click the like button on my post and then be targeted by moderators they feel have acted racially insensitive in the past. Wow.



If someone feels this way, please PM me so we can talk about this and figure out what is going on. This is no way anyone should feel and something we do not tolerate. I have never heard anything of this until this message, but there are so specifics here for me to go off of.


----------



## chicinthecity777

Megs said:


> I still have no received a message letting me know which member has an avatar that I need to look at. I know a poster said she'd PM me, but I am going to reach out as I have yet to hear. I can't look into it without knowing. I've PMd other members is this thread to share with me if they know, as I would like to look into this ASAP.
> 
> I am always open to anyone reaching out with any concern at any time. The last thing I want is for our site to feel unwelcoming because people feel there is any racist remarks/actions being allowed to happen here.
> 
> I think a lot of members assume we see every post, but we do not. I rely on reports and as I said before, there are times I miss something. We have a lot of forums, a lot of posts, a lot of reports. If you see something that remains live on the site, PM me directly. Or email me. I have even talked on the phone to members and am happy to do that as well. Please reach out and make sure you get in front of me so I can see it and handle it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have a handful of freelance writers that have written for us over the years. These are people that reached out and pitched stories that we believed were a good fit for our audience, based on their writing skills and content. I don't ask people for photos of themselves and as this is an online based site, I haven't met majority of people that we've had write for us aside from when we had our team in NYC. Unless someone explicitly shares it, I don't know their race when they are pitching a story. The images that were pulled of our writers up thread do not include every freelance writer, and I am not able to share people's ethnicities/races without their consent, but that is not a full look at who has written for us or their background.
> 
> Right now we only have 3 people full time on the team: @Vlad, myself, and Kaitlin. We were looking to expand our freelance writers but needed to pause this due to the pandemic and it's financial impact on our business.
> 
> I would love to have more writers from a diverse background on PurseBlog, I think it's incredibly important for voices from different backgrounds, races, ethnicities, and those who like different bags for different reasons to be featured. That is something we are focusing on as our business picks back up.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm PMing you as I haven't heard anything yet!
> 
> 
> 
> When Vlad put out his call out for writers, we actually didn't get a chance to move forward with the submissions and in the past months haven't been able to take on the freelance projects we would have liked to. But I did look at your submission this morning, and based on what you sent, I would have no way of knowing you were a woman of color unless you explicitly let us know.
> 
> As I said above, I think it is incredibly important to tell the story of different people with different backgrounds, races, ethnicities and their view and treatment surrounding the world of designer bags that we all love. We do share a really wide range of Closet Confessionals and have featured different men and women of color there. Again, I know this only because they explicitly stated this as part of their confessional.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone feels this way, please PM me so we can talk about this and figure out what is going on. This is no way anyone should feel and something we do not tolerate. I have never heard anything of this until this message, but there are so specifics here for me to go off of.


Just sent you a PM. Thanks!


----------



## Megs

chicinthecity777 said:


> Just sent you a PM. Thanks!



Got it and looking into it now!


----------



## chicinthecity777

Megs said:


> Got it and looking into it now!


Thank you so much!


----------



## mrsinsyder

.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

limom said:


> Wow!
> People are scared to be targeted? This is deep.


I can believe it. This forum is very cliquish and they will gang up on you. It feels like high school here sometimes.


----------



## Megs

mrsinsyder said:


> Megs I truly believe you want to do better but this whole reply sounds like you're just blaming everyone else. I sent you an example of an admin saying "we don't ban for a comment about race, lol" and you think people are going to feel comfortable reporting comments?



I did not mean to blame anyone. It's our forum, so we are in charge of the tone being set here. What I was trying to say is that we rely heavily on reports being made or PMs being sent to see everything happening. I simply can not see everything always! 

As for the avatar in question in this thread, it's been removed from that member's page.


----------



## Megs

Winter’sJoy said:


> I can believe it. This forum is very cliquish and they will gang up on you. It feels like high school here sometimes.



I'm sorry it feels that way to you. I am sure it happens. I think it's hard for people to gather in large groups and not form cliques. I've never been in a clique in pretty much any of my life, I'm always friends with people but not fully in the clique if you know what I mean. But I do know how it feels to be an outsider of any group or not feel fully accepted, and that's never fun. 

I think we have a great group overall, and a lot of people here to share their mutual love of bags! I hope everyone can feel welcomed here and find a place to call "home". I'm always here to chat with anyone anytime about anything!


----------



## Vlad

mrsinsyder said:


> I’ve received tons of PMs as well; some members are afraid to even click the like button on my post and then be targeted by moderators they feel have acted racially insensitive in the past. Wow.



This is a serious claim, kindly forward me the PMs so I can investigate. Thanks.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

@Megs I tagged you in a thread where the poster has been very nasty towards me even after I stopped engaging simply because I disagreed with them and had a different opinion. One of her post was deleted by the mods but she continued on and her attacks became very personal towards me. When I defended myself the mods came in and deleted some of our posts and I was sent a dm from a mod basically telling me to stop. It is wrong to post on a discussion forum and then only be accepting of posts that agree with you. Posters should not be attacked personally for having a different opinion. But they are an OG so maybe the rules are different.

I remember I once wandered into a thread that I did not know the full history on and was pretty much quadruple teamed  up on after I made a post in support of the person that they obviously have disdain for.  I went back and forth arguing points for a little while and then left because it was not worth the trouble. I didn’t start attacking the posters personally even though they tried to get me banned over that thread. One poster still holds a grudge against me and I just find it all so silly.


----------



## Megs

Winter’sJoy said:


> @Megs I tagged you in a thread where the poster has been very nasty towards me even after I stopped engaging simply because I disagreed with them and had a different opinion. One of her post was deleted by the mods but she continued on and her attacks became very personal towards me. When I defended myself the mods came in and deleted some of our posts and I was sent a dm from a mod basically telling me to stop. It is wrong to post on a discussion forum and then only be accepting of posts that agree with you. Posters should not be attacked personally for having a different opinion. But they are an OG so maybe the rules are different.
> 
> I remember I once wandered into a thread that I did not know the full history on and was pretty much quadruple teamed  up on after I made a post in support of the person that they obviously have disdain for.  I went back and forth arguing points for a little while and then left because it was not worth the trouble. I didn’t start attacking the posters personally even though they tried to get me banned over that thread. One poster still holds a grudge against me and I just find it all so silly.



Sending you a PM! I miss a lot of notifications because I glance over them, but the likes always take away from me seeing where I'm quoted or tagged. Maybe I can filter this better. You'd think I of all people would figure that out, but if you knew how often I call for Vlad to fix things for me, you'd laugh. 

I know when we delete any back and forth 'arguing'. I'm saying arguing loosely, because honestly I find having to delete anything like this pretty low on the list of things I want to do. I believe all members should be able to share their opinions and handle disagreements, but we also want there to be no open arguing on the boards making people feel unwelcome or called out. It's a tough thing to navigate. 

Rules are always the same and we all try to enact them the same, but some of us still will handle it a bit differently than the next mod. I am really against over moderating and I like to allow people to figure things out, but I also don't want things to be harsh for any member ya know? 

As for holding long grudges, I am guessing that's just personality traits that carry from offline to online and back and forth!


----------



## chicinthecity777

Megs said:


> As for the avatar in question in this thread, it's been removed from that member's page.


Thank you so much!

There are also members who will stir up in various different threads and trolling including wanting to always have the last word, making personal attacks towards other members (when the other member already told her to stop the personal attacks) but that's another issue for another day!


----------



## Winter’sJoy

@tulipfield I’m sorry, didn’t mean to hijack your thread.


----------



## chicinthecity777

Diet Prada is a good account on IG to follow (a fellow member tipped me off), who is very good at calling out racism and hypocrisy in general.


----------



## Mimmy

I heard a term while listening to the radio in my car yesterday, “performance activism” also known as “slacktavism”. Many people know what they think are the right things to say or post on social media and elsewhere without really thinking about or committing to what they can do to really cause change or make a difference.

This is relevant to this thread as I am wondering how many retailers are actually going to commit to and sell handbags or other merchandise from Black owned businesses. @Megs posted 2 articles featuring Black owned handbag companies and designers.

I really like the handbags from Brother Vellies owned by Aurora James who is quoted in the article that started this thread. Although it initially will be a small thing I am committed to my next handbag purchase being one that comes from a Black owned company.

It’s simple but if many people did this it would make a difference.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

I am in support of @mrsinsyder becomming a tpf blogger.


----------



## Megs

Mimmy said:


> I heard a term while listening to the radio in my car yesterday, “performance activism” also known as “slacktavism”. Many people know what they think are the right things to say or post on social media and elsewhere without really thinking about or committing to what they can do to really cause change or make a difference.
> 
> This is relevant to this thread as I am wondering how many retailers are actually going to commit to and sell handbags or other merchandise from Black owned businesses. @Megs posted 2 articles featuring Black owned handbag companies and designers.
> 
> I really like the handbags from Brother Vellies owned by Aurora James who is quoted in the article that started this thread. Although it initially will be a small thing I am committed to my next handbag purchase being one that comes from a Black owned company.
> 
> It’s simple but if many people did this it would make a difference.



I am hoping to get samples from some of the brands I featured to be able to share a more in depth review. I know Aurora James started the 15 Percent Pledge, and slowly but thankfully some retailers are signing on. Sephora and West Elm did! 

Brother Vellies bags are beautiful! 

This is a change that needs to happen not just in the short term, but be part of the long term process. As we share handbag brands for people to shop, we are working on features on Black-owned bag brands to share. And as I said, we would love to have a more diverse group of freelance writers!


----------



## Megs

Winter’sJoy said:


> I am in support of @mrsinsyder becomming a tpf blogger.



I'm going to be looking thru all of the submissions again in the coming weeks!


----------



## papertiger

Mimmy said:


> I heard a term while listening to the radio in my car yesterday, “performance activism” also known as “slacktavism”. Many people know what they think are the right things to say or post on social media and elsewhere without really thinking about or committing to what they can do to really cause change or make a difference.
> 
> This is relevant to this thread as I am wondering how many retailers are actually going to commit to and sell handbags or other merchandise from Black owned businesses. @Megs posted 2 articles featuring Black owned handbag companies and designers.
> 
> I really like the handbags from Brother Vellies owned by Aurora James who is quoted in the article that started this thread. Although it initially will be a small thing I am committed to my next handbag purchase being one that comes from a Black owned company.
> 
> It’s simple but if many people did this it would make a difference.



I totally agree, it's whatever's the trend - for the moment.

It gets complicated though. This can also be seen as a Western (particularly US) response to a question of racism. Not every country's minorities look the same across the globe, and sometimes the most marginalised clan/race/group in society may look the same/similar as the predominant majority to outsiders but 'at home' they are treated as second-class citizens. Fixing racism is not as simple as representation like an old Benetton ad. You cannot presume diversity/inclusiveness from a photo.

I will continue to base my purchasing decisions on great products, good customer services and a sustainable business model (including verifiable work practices and sources). For example, last month that was a Pat McGrath eyeshadow palette (made in Italy, US registered company) or  Wayne Goss makeup brushes (handmade in Japan, US distributor). I will never choose to buy anything based solely on the colour of the owner of a company's skin, the country they come from, their religion or their family name. I will always hire the best person for the job and not because I need someone that looks good for a photo (currently that means a young Black African woman and older Asian Chinese man and (young at heart) woman but I shouldn't have to say, justify it or line up for a medal).

My husband convinced me that White (which I am not, nor am I Black, I am an ethnic minority but shouldn't have to say) privilege stays privilege when people go around thinking they are doing anyone a favour by oh so 'graciously' deigning to use their favour. I can't think of anything more patronising. Dividing people into black/white is a legacy of Segregation and something I will not take part in. I don't care how fashionable it becomes.

I also hate the term 'Karen'. Until a male counterpart goes the rounds I think people should realise what they are doing by using it. Demonising female racists (however stupid they are) by demonising/dismissing them as a 'type' is a very dangerous thing to do.


----------



## papertiger

Megs said:


> I am hoping to get samples from some of the brands I featured to be able to share a more in depth review. I know Aurora James started the 15 Percent Pledge, and slowly but thankfully some retailers are signing on. Sephora and West Elm did!
> 
> Brother Vellies bags are beautiful!
> 
> This is a change that needs to happen not just in the short term, but be part of the long term process. As we share handbag brands for people to shop, we are working on features on Black-owned bag brands to share. And as I said, we would love to have a more diverse group of freelance writers!



Sephora (LVMH owned) can sign-up to that because Fenty (LVMH owned with Riri as face of, on a high percentage - 15%) and Pat McGrath Labs already nearly cover them so they don't actually have to do anything but publicise the fact. Hopefully, when Fashion Fair Cosmetics (Black owned since 1973) relaunches supposedly this Winter they can approach Sephora and will be welcomed with open arms.


----------



## mrsinsyder

papertiger said:


> I also hate the term 'Karen'. Until a male counterpart goes the rounds I think people should realise what they are doing by using it. Demonising female racists (however stupid they are) by demonising/dismissing them as a 'type' is a very dangerous thing to do.



So you mention "Karen," but not the nicknames that women of color have been called for decades (Consuela, Shanaenae, Shaniqua, Bonquiqui, Ling-Ling, Pocahontas, etc., etc.).


----------



## mrsinsyder

Winter’sJoy said:


> I am in support of @mrsinsyder becomming a tpf blogger.


Appreciate you  but I'm strongly rethinking my participation here at all, so I don't think I'd be a great fit at this time.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

mrsinsyder said:


> Appreciate you  but I'm strongly rethinking my participation here at all, so I don't think I'd be a great fit at this time.


Sorry to hear that but I can tell by yours post lately that you are getting fed up and understandably so. I say stick around, hopefully you can be the change that is needed.


----------



## limom

@papertiger 
What do you mean by *made in Italy, US resisted company*?


----------



## limom

mrsinsyder said:


> Appreciate you  but I'm strongly rethinking my participation here at all, so I don't think I'd be a great fit at this time.


Too bad, I really enjoy your POV!


----------



## Winter’sJoy

papertiger said:


> I totally agree, it's whatever's the trend - for the moment.
> 
> It gets complicated though. This can also be seen as a Western (particularly US) response to a question of racism. Not every country's minorities look the same across the globe, and sometimes the most marginalised clan/race/group in society may look the same/similar as the predominant majority to outsiders but 'at home' they are treated as second-class citizens. Fixing racism is not as simple as representation like an old Benetton ad. You cannot presume diversity/inclusiveness from a photo.
> 
> I will continue to base my purchasing decisions on great products, good customer services and a sustainable business model (including verifiable work practices and sources). For example, last month that was a Pat McGrath eyeshadow palette (made in Italy, US resisted company) or  Wayne Goss makeup brushes (handmade in Japan, US distributor). I will never choose to buy anything based solely on the colour of the owner of a company's skin, the country they come from, their religion or their family name. I will always hire the best person for the job and not because I need someone that looks good for a photo (currently that means a young Black African woman and older Asian Chinese man and (young at heart) woman but I shouldn't have to say, justify it or line up for a medal).
> 
> My husband convinced me that White (which I am not, nor am I Black, I am an ethnic minority but shouldn't have to say) privilege stays privilege when people go around thinking they are doing anyone a favour by oh so 'graciously' deigning to use their their favour. I can't think of anything more patronising. Dividing people into black/white is a legacy of Segregation and something I will not take part in. I don't care how fashionable it becomes.
> 
> I also hate the term 'Karen'. Until a male counterpart goes the rounds I think people should realise what they are doing by using it. Demonising female racists (however stupid they are) by demonising/dismissing them as a 'type' is a very dangerous thing to do.


There are names for the “Karen” counterparts.


----------



## papertiger

limom said:


> @papertiger
> What do you mean by *made in Italy, US resisted company*?



The product is made in Italy, the company Pat McGrath Labs is a US company with its HQ apparently at 126 5th Avenue New York, NY 10011 United States (although Pat is British of course)


----------



## papertiger

Winter’sJoy said:


> There are names for the “Karen” counterparts.



That I don't know them and haven't read them, but have heard 'Karen' several thousand times just goes to show IMO.


----------



## limom

papertiger said:


> The product is made in Italy, the company Pat McGrath Labs is a US company with its HQ apparently at 126 5th Avenue New York, NY 10011 United States (although Pat is British of course)


Thanks.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Mimmy said:


> I heard a term while listening to the radio in my car yesterday, “performance activism” also known as “slacktavism”. Many people know what they think are the right things to say or post on social media and elsewhere without really thinking about or committing to what they can do to really cause change or make a difference.





papertiger said:


> Fixing racism is not as simple as representation like an old Benetton ad.



I totally agree and I have been thinking a lot about the difference between being non racist and anti racist. 

It's pretty easy to be (or convince yourself you are being) non racist. 

Anti racist is more challenging. It may mean being uncomfortable, confrontational or willing losing something ($, a relationship, etc).

I'm clear that as white person it is my responsibility to do the hard work. It's actually the least I can do. 

I thought this article about ending racism in the fashion industry was interesting, especially this quote from Tracy Reese...

“This is a white industry, and unless you are black within it, you can’t begin to understand what that is like. If we are going to make meaningful progress, there has to be a joint effort, not a factional effort — or 20 different efforts. The people forming these factions know what they want to say — they are brave. They are stepping up, and that’s important to do. But it will go further if we are all working toward a common goal: equity, equality, anti-racism."


----------



## Vlad

mrsinsyder said:


> It's really sad that the forum isn't taking this stuff seriously. Who cares if it's not explicitly against the rules? The mods issue infractions for things that aren't against the rules ALL THE TIME. This is exactly why my inbox is *full of people of color saying they don't want to use the site anymore*, @Megs.



In the past weeks you've repeatedly stated that your inbox was filled with people fed up with how racist this forum is and reaching out to you. As someone who scans forum-wide reports every day, I can recall a handful instances of blatant racist remarks being posted in the public forum over the last few years, which have been addressed. Was it resolved perfectly to everyone's satisfaction? Likely not, but I don't claim to be infallible.

I've also made it clear for years that people can message me or Megs directly if they want to have their case heard with regards to forum direction, moderation or anything else.

So I ask you again to please forward the DMs you've been receiving, so I can look into the instances that left people with a feeling that TPF is ripe with racism.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

papertiger said:


> That I don't know them and haven't read them, but have heard 'Karen' several thousand times just goes to show IMO.


They call them Ken and Chad.


----------



## mrsinsyder

Vlad said:


> So I ask you again to please forward the DMs you've been receiving, so I can look into the instances that left people with a feeling that TPF is ripe with racism.



Respectfully, I'm not comfortable forwarding you conversations about an extremely sensitive topic that posters have had with me privately, and I'm surprised you'd even ask me to do so. Many of them are posting in this thread, so I'm sure they will contact you if they're comfortable doing so.


----------



## Vlad

mrsinsyder said:


> Many of them are posting in this thread, so I'm sure they will contact you if they're comfortable doing so.



I look forward to hearing from them.


----------



## mrsinsyder

Vlad said:


> I look forward to hearing from them.


So out of curiosity, do you think I'm the only person that thinks this forum has issues with racism?


----------



## papertiger

mrsinsyder said:


> So you mention "Karen," but not the nicknames that women of color have been called for decades (Consuela, Shanaenae, Shaniqua, Bonquiqui, Ling-Ling, Pocahontas, etc., etc.).



That would be wrong too.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

I personally don’t like using the names Karen or Chad for them and it’s not because I feel it’s wrong. I don’t like it because to me it downplays the evil intent behind what they are doing. I find the word too cutesy and is definitely not the word I would use to describe their vileness and exactly what they are.


----------



## papertiger

Winter’sJoy said:


> I personally don’t like using the names Karen or Chad for them and it’s not because I feel it’s wrong. I don’t like it because to me it downplays the evil intent behind what they are doing. I find the word too cutesy and is definitely not the word I would use to describe their vileness and exactly what they are.



Then we're agreeing


----------



## Winter’sJoy

papertiger said:


> Then we're agreeing


I guess we are


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Vlad said:


> In the past weeks you've repeatedly stated that your inbox was filled with people fed up with how racist this forum is and reaching out to you. As someone who scans forum-wide reports every day, I can recall a handful instances of blatant racist remarks being posted in the public forum over the last few years, which have been addressed. Was it resolved perfectly to everyone's satisfaction? Likely not, but I don't claim to be infallible.
> 
> I've also made it clear for years that people can message me or Megs directly if they want to have their case heard with regards to forum direction, moderation or anything else.
> 
> So I ask you again to please forward the DMs you've been receiving, so I can look into the instances that left people with a feeling that TPF is ripe with racism.



If I was a POC reading this I would not feel comfortable or safe contacting you. 

I realize it's natural to want to defend yourself and your business but respectfully I would advise trying to listen with an open mind.

I recently had a conversation with a friend who was offended by something I said. I felt awful because that was not my intention. But once I considered her perspective I realized why my words were insensitive. I needed to consider her experience to understand....and ultimately to make amends.


----------



## Vlad

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> If I was a POC reading this I would not feel comfortable or safe contacting you.
> 
> I realize it's natural to want to defend yourself and your business but respectfully I would advise trying to listen with an open mind.
> 
> I recently had a conversation with a friend who was offended by something I said. I felt awful because that was not my intention. But once I considered her perspective I realized why my words were insensitive. I needed to consider her experience to understand....and ultimately to make amends.



I get it and sorry if I came off as defensive. I am happy to hear out anyone with their perspective and see how we can improve and make our community a better place. 

As always, if there's a post that is problematic or violates our rules, hit the _Report_ link and we'll take care of it.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

Vlad said:


> I get it and sorry if I came off as defensive. I am happy to hear out anyone with their perspective and see how we can improve and make our community a better place.
> 
> As always, if there's a post that is problematic or violates our rules, hit the _Report_ link and we'll take care of it.


Have you ever considered revising or adding to your rules? Things change or new situations arise that may have not been on your radar at the time of creating the rules. I don’t know how often you review and update your rules but I just wanted to make the suggestion.


----------



## Vlad

Winter’sJoy said:


> Have you ever considered revising or adding to your rules? Things change or new situations arise that may have not been on your radar at the time of creating the rules. I don’t know how often you review and update your rules but I just wanted to make the suggestion.



Absolutely, we've revised our forum rules over time. What would you like to see amended to it?


----------



## mrsinsyder

Vlad said:


> As always, if there's a post that is problematic or violates our rules, hit the _Report_ link and we'll take care of it.



It's not that simple, though. For example, I'd never, ever think any of the mods would allow a racial slur on the forum. I have no doubt that any case of overt racism that was reported to you or Megs would be swiftly dealt with.

But let's look at the "Melania ***** style thread." There is sooooo much subtle racism in there that it's unreal. Someone suggested Michelle ***** stole the White House curtains. A Harvard and Princeton educated woman of color. Or the Meghan Markle thread. Where posters allege that her black mother is secretly a criminal. Is saying that against forum rules? No. Is it extremely racist? Yes.


----------



## Megs

Winter’sJoy said:


> Have you ever considered revising or adding to your rules? Things change or new situations arise that may have not been on your radar at the time of creating the rules. I don’t know how often you review and update your rules but I just wanted to make the suggestion.



Our rules include this point: "Profanity. No profanity, use of offensive language (e.g., racist or hateful terms)."

I think we could make this a larger point to touch on racism and microagressions specifically, so we could add to them making it clear that it's always been our stance and will continue to be that anything of this nature will not be tolerated and promptly removed. Repeat offenses can lead to losing account privileges . 



mrsinsyder said:


> It's not that simple, though. For example, I'd never, ever think any of the mods would allow a racial slur on the forum. I have no doubt that any case of overt racism that was reported to you or Megs would be swiftly dealt with.
> 
> But let's look at the "Melania ***** style thread." There is sooooo much subtle racism in there that it's unreal. Someone suggested Michelle ***** stole the White House curtains. A Harvard and Princeton educated woman of color. Or the Meghan Markle thread. Where posters allege that her black mother is secretly a criminal. Is saying that against forum rules? No. Is it extremely racist? Yes.



I will do a better job with those threads. I know they have a lot of heated responses, but we can step in more and remove remarks that are racist when we see them.


----------



## honybr

mrsinsyder said:


> It's not that simple, though. For example, I'd never, ever think any of the mods would allow a racial slur on the forum. I have no doubt that any case of overt racism that was reported to you or Megs would be swiftly dealt with.
> 
> But let's look at the "Melania ***** style thread." There is sooooo much subtle racism in there that it's unreal. Someone suggested Michelle ***** stole the White House curtains. A Harvard and Princeton educated woman of color. Or the Meghan Markle thread. Where posters allege that her black mother is secretly a criminal. Is saying that against forum rules? No. Is it extremely racist? Yes.




I barely ever post but I was going to say if you want to see subtle racism just go look at the Meghan Markle thread.  It's awful!  One of the most recent posts is how awful her hair extensions are.  WOC are not the only ones who wear hair extensions but it's assumed Meghan is but their precious Kate never would.


----------



## mrsinsyder

Megs said:


> Our rules include this point: "Profanity. No profanity, use of offensive language (e.g., racist or hateful terms)."
> 
> I think we could make this a larger point to touch on racism and microagressions specifically, so we could add to them making it clear that it's always been our stance and will continue to be that anything of this nature will not be tolerated and promptly removed. Repeat offenses can lead to losing account privileges .
> 
> I will do a better job with those threads. I know they have a lot of heated responses, but we can step in more and remove remarks that are racist when we see them.


----------



## Megs

honybr said:


> I barely ever post but I was going to say if you want to see subtle racism just go look at the Meghan Markle thread.  It's awful!  One of the most recent posts is how awful her hair extensions are.  WOC are not the only ones who wear hair extensions but it's assumed Meghan is but their precious Kate never would.



Going to go check it out. If I can't find the post, I'll PM you!


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

That Meghan Markle thread is a mess. I had to stop posting because the vitriol is out of control. I am sure most people here just don't like her (which is totally fine) but they argue every time anyone mentions she may have experienced racism. 

And yet the first time her pic was posted in the thread the next comment was...



> Wonder if she will try to become a baby mama?



Did anyone on tpf say that when he was dating Chelsy Davy


----------



## QuelleFromage

mrsinsyder said:


> It's not that simple, though. For example, I'd never, ever think any of the mods would allow a racial slur on the forum. I have no doubt that any case of overt racism that was reported to you or Megs would be swiftly dealt with.
> 
> But let's look at the "Melania ***** style thread." There is sooooo much subtle racism in there that it's unreal. Someone suggested Michelle ***** stole the White House curtains. A Harvard and Princeton educated woman of color. Or the Meghan Markle thread. Where posters allege that her black mother is secretly a criminal. Is saying that against forum rules? No. Is it extremely racist? Yes.





OriginalBalenciaga said:


> That Meghan Markle thread is a mess. I had to stop posting because the vitriol is out of control. I am sure most people here just don't like her (which is totally fine) but they argue every time anyone mentions she may have experienced racism.
> 
> And yet the first time her pic was posted in the thread the next comment was...
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone on tpf say that when he was dating Chelsy Davy



The Meghan Markle thread is hateful and yes, rife with implicit if not explicit racism. It makes me ill to read it.

When I objected to a racist term in the Hermès forum a couple years ago I was point blank told by mods in the thread that it was not racist. I actually think the poster wasn't as aware as she should have been of the meaning of the word in that context. I had to explain it by DM. It was excruciating, but what really upset me was that the mods deleted both the offending post AND my post. Frankly that doesn't help educate people who are possibly unaware of the biases they are showing.


----------



## Megs

QuelleFromage said:


> The Meghan Markle thread is hateful and yes, rife with implicit if not explicit racism. It makes me ill to read it.
> 
> When I objected to a racist term in the Hermès forum a couple years ago I was point blank told by mods in the thread that it was not racist. I actually think the poster wasn't as aware as she should have been of the meaning of the word in that context. I had to explain it by DM. It was excruciating, but what really upset me was that the mods deleted both the offending post AND my post. Frankly that doesn't help educate people who are possibly unaware of the biases they are showing.



I can see where you are coming from here. 

We typically have the stance that if we remove a post for violating TOS for whatever reason, we also remove the comments back to the post. If we were to leave your comment up for example, it would read out of place with the deleted comment. A mod can come in and say something like "No racism will be tolerated" but it wouldn't show the poster with his original comment and yours. 

It's a tricky situation because we want to immediately remove that and then remove subsequent chat that happened around it. But that leaves no one seeing what was said or maybe learning that what was said was offensive and shouldn't be said. I am actually not sure how we can moderate that better going forward... just talking out loud here...


----------



## Winter’sJoy

QuelleFromage said:


> The Meghan Markle thread is hateful and yes, rife with implicit if not explicit racism. It makes me ill to read it.
> 
> When I objected to a racist term in the Hermès forum a couple years ago I was point blank told by mods in the thread that it was not racist. I actually think the poster wasn't as aware as she should have been of the meaning of the word in that context. I had to explain it by DM. It was excruciating, but what really upset me was that the mods deleted both the offending post AND my post. Frankly that doesn't help educate people who are possibly unaware of the biases they are showing.


That Meghan thread makes me ill. Just post after post of negativity. I mean absolutely nothing positive is said about her and I think the posters feed off of each other. It’s like tag team wrestling in there.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> That Meghan Markle thread is a mess. I had to stop posting because the vitriol is out of control. I am sure most people here just don't like her (which is totally fine) but they argue every time anyone mentions she may have experienced racism.
> 
> And yet the first time her pic was posted in the thread the next comment was...
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone on tpf say that when he was dating Chelsy Davy


I am so glad you brought this up! I made a post in support of her not really knowing the history of the thread and they were on me like white on rice! Then I responded to a poster that a lot of the posters came off as jealous because they say they call out his behavior too but most of the post were about how she was so awful and that he needed saving. For every one negative about him there were 10 for her plus after going back and reading through the thread before he started dating Meghan many of them were swooning over him. Those posters tried to get me banned!!! I was like what in the world? Is it that serious. I hit back with a final negative post about Kate but edited because I knew it was wrong to do even if it was the truth. I even asked the mods if I could stop receiving notifications for the thread.


----------



## rutabaga

@Megs @Vlad maybe consider an anonymous feedback mailbox? We have this at work (although I’d never submit a comment bc you have to log into your work computer to submit the comment through the work intranet so its never truly anonymous) but maybe something similar could be set up so people can express feedback candidly?


----------



## mrsinsyder

Winter’sJoy said:


> That Meghan thread makes me ill. Just post after post of negativity. I mean absolutely nothing positive is said about her and I think the posters feed off of each other. It’s like tag team wrestling in there.


I used to post in there a lot because I can't stand either of them, but it just became too much and I had to back away. I started seeing the racism pop up more and more. I can't expect others to do better if I'm not willing to do so myself.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> That Meghan Markle thread is a mess. I had to stop posting because the vitriol is out of control. I am sure most people here just don't like her (which is totally fine) but they argue every time anyone mentions she may have experienced racism.
> 
> And yet the first time her pic was posted in the thread the next comment was...
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone on tpf say that when he was dating Chelsy Davy



i think it is wrong to try and discount anyone’s experience regardless if you like them or not. That is racially insensitive. The thread is problematic.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

Vlad said:


> Absolutely, we've revised our forum rules over time. What would you like to see amended to it?


When I’m posting on here I’m usually doing other things as well. Can I have time to fully review the rules before I respond?


----------



## Winter’sJoy

mrsinsyder said:


> I used to post in there a lot because I can't stand either of them, but it just became too much and I had to back away. I started seeing the racism pop up more and more. I can't expect others to do better if I'm not willing to do so myself.


I understand and I’m glad you recognized it and are distancing yourself from it. I just don’t think it’s healthy although there are celebrities that I don’t like, I don’t think I could muster the energy to follow their every move just to spew about it in a forum. It just doesn’t make sense to me.  Lol but I remember seeing you in there.


----------



## Megs

i*bella said:


> @Megs @Vlad maybe consider an anonymous feedback mailbox? We have this at work (although I’d never submit a comment bc you have to log into your work computer to submit the comment through the work intranet so its never truly anonymous) but maybe something similar could be set up so people can express feedback candidly?



This could be a good option for people. Let me see if @Vlad could figure something out for this. I truly always welcome any questions, comments, concern, feedback, criticism, but I do understand not everyone wants to put their name to it.


----------



## lulilu

I have one suggestion.  I find it offensive when posters, in relating a story about, e.g., a boutique experience, identify the race or ethnicity of the customer or SA who is the subject of the OP's complaint.  I don't see why it is relevant to a story that the purportedly rude customer or SA was, e.g., Asian, and that is something I have seen on multiple occasions.  I have reported it and don't think it's been adequately addressed.  Prohibiting this would help IMHO.


----------



## mrsinsyder

lulilu said:


> I have one suggestion.  I find it offensive when posters, in relating a story about, e.g., a boutique experience, identify the race or ethnicity of the customer or SA who is the subject of the OP's complaint.  I don't see why it is relevant to a story that the purportedly rude customer or SA was, e.g., Asian, and that is something I have seen on multiple occasions.  I have reported it and don't think it's been adequately addressed.  Prohibiting this would help IMHO.


I agree but I also thought the Asians and Hermes thread should have been done away with when it was brought up in the feedback Dropbox. I get that it was started by an Asian person but it creates an unnecessary segregation. Imagine a “blacks and Gucci” thread. Would never happen.


----------



## Mimmy

mrsinsyder said:


> I used to post in there a lot because I can't stand either of them, but it just became too much and I had to back away. I started seeing the racism pop up more and more. I can't expect others to do better if I'm not willing to do so myself.


I remember “seeing” you there and I recall that even though “you couldn’t stand them” you were respectful.  Although I was a fan I got tired of being attacked and called a “stan”. If a positive post was made not just one but several people would pile on. For some reason it was not acceptable to post differing opinions and that is what I thought makes a thread interesting.

I quit posting but would still lurk. I then saw that more of the posts were just becoming ways to express subtle and not so subtle racism.

I found myself actually becoming uncomfortable about what was being posted and made the decision at that point to unwatch that thread.


----------



## mrsinsyder

Mimmy said:


> I remember “seeing” you there and I recall that even though “you couldn’t stand them” you were respectful.  Although I was a fan I got tired of being attacked and called a “stan”. If a positive post was made not just one but several people would pile on. For some reason it was not acceptable to post differing opinions and that is what I thought makes a thread interesting.
> 
> I quit posting but would still lurk. I then saw that more of the posts were just becoming ways to express subtle and not so subtle racism.
> 
> I found myself actually becoming uncomfortable about what was being posted and made the decision at that point to unwatch that thread.


I hate that you were uncomfortable and even if I never made comments related to race, I contributed to the climate in that thread and I apologize. When a thread starts to deteriorate, little comments here and there get passed over and eventually the whole tide turns into something ugly.


----------



## tulipfield

Winter’sJoy said:


> @tulipfield I’m sorry, didn’t mean to hijack your thread.



No worries--frankly I was curious to see what kind of discussion this article would engender.



dooneybaby said:


> In all fairness, has anyone besides a white woman offered to write for TPF? I'm a black woman and there's nothing I would enjoy more, but because I work for a well-known news organization, my job prevents me from doing so.



I’m a (full disclosure: very white-passing) Mexican-American, and I applied to write here when they had an opening about a year ago.  I never heard back after I submitted my writing samples.

I’m not saying they didn’t pick me because I’m Latina.  Nevertheless they could have guessed my ethnicity based on my name.

While we're at it though, let me get a few other things off my chest:

The article I posted has generated a lot of discussion about race here, but it also references the problem of class.  Greater representation of POC in the leadership of fashion houses and forums like this one does not change the fact that there are a bunch of us here dropping $5000 on handbags when that's several months of rent for folks of all colors on the verge of homelessness, a problem made acute by the pandemic.

I'm not shaming anyone's personal decisions, I am a member here after all who's spent plenty of my own money on nonsense.  We need systemic change to make sure everyone has a roof over their head, healthcare, an education, etc., and to that end I would suggest in the vaguest terms (to be permissible on this forum?) to balance your consumption of luxury goods with support of politics that help low-wage workers, the homeless, the environment, etc.  By "support" I meant vote, but also donate to _political_ groups and campaigns (obviously all this varies depending on where you live).  I very much _do not_ mean philanthropy, which is basically a band-aid that doesn't solve these problems at their root and that gives the wealthy a convenient tax write-off as well as all kinds of undeserved kudos.

I would also add that I find it incredibly frustrating the way the rule about "political" discussion is (or is not) applied here.  Why is there a Melania ***** thread allowed in this forum at all?  It should be incredibly clear by now that politics is not about two teams (US context here) with equally valid points of view.  It's about right and wrong, about real human suffering that Melania ***** is part and parcel of.

Not that I'm letting the Obamas off the hook--every US presidency is marred by the sins of imperialism and so many other problems.

I've never posted about this kind of stuff because I know this community itself is by and large the product of wealth accumulation to a minority of the population, though I know there are a lot of ordinary participants here as well.  But this is what Amanda's article was getting at: modern luxury itself is a product of an exploitative capitalist system.  For as much as I am a fan of fashion (and the arts as a whole) as patronized by the wealthy over the centuries, I know that modern luxury houses bear little resemblance to their storied origins, and are just another method for giant conglomerates to siphon away money at the expense of mostly underpaid workers (whether they're Chinese making items that will later be marked "made in France," old Italian ladies laboring away at Max Mara coats for a tiny paycheck, or your friendly luxury boutique SA who will never be able to afford their own home in your ridiculous local housing market).

Expecting this post to get deleted.  Feels good to say these things, though.


----------



## Mimmy

mrsinsyder said:


> I hate that you were uncomfortable and even if I never made comments related to race, I contributed to the climate in that thread and I apologize. When a thread starts to deteriorate, little comments here and there get passed over and eventually the whole tide turns into something ugly.


I appreciate you posting this. I don’t think you need to apologize for your contributions to that thread.

I agree with you though that after awhile there was no room for reasonable discussion in that thread.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

tulipfield said:


> I would also add that I find it incredibly frustrating the way the rule about "political" discussion is (or is not) applied here.  Why is there a Melania ***** thread allowed in this forum at all?  It should be incredibly clear by now that politics is not about two teams (US context here) with equally valid points of view.  It's about right and wrong, about real human suffering that Melania ***** is part and parcel of.
> 
> Expecting this post to get deleted.  Feels good to say these things, though.



I hope it doesn't get deleted, it was a really thought provoking article and post. 

Regarding Melania ***** she is a birther. The fact that there is a no politics rule but a fan thread of her remains speaks volumes.


----------



## mrsinsyder

@tulipfield your post is so spot on.


----------



## mrsinsyder

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I hope it doesn't get deleted, it was a really thought provoking article and post.
> 
> Regarding Melania ***** she is a birther. The fact that there is a no politics rule but a fan thread of her remains speaks volumes.


Agree. I gave the thread the benefit of the doubt thinking it was from pre-election, but when I saw it was created after the election, it was clear it was purely politics.

My father was having a close friend locked in a detention facility while people were fawning over her “I don’t really care“ jacket. To say that’s painful is an understatement.


----------



## mrsinsyder

In addition, I had a thread I created about Jeffrey Epstein deleted for being political, but now he has a whole thread where child human trafficking sexual abuse victims are getting blamed for being abused  like... huh?!

Like @tulipfield says, the issues of classism, poverty, etc., are clearly in play when blame is shifted off a male white billionaire onto literal children.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

Mimmy said:


> I remember “seeing” you there and I recall that even though “you couldn’t stand them” you were respectful.  Although I was a fan I got tired of being attacked and called a “stan”. If a positive post was made not just one but several people would pile on. For some reason it was not acceptable to post differing opinions and that is what I thought makes a thread interesting.
> 
> I quit posting but would still lurk. I then saw that more of the posts were just becoming ways to express subtle and not so subtle racism.
> 
> I found myself actually becoming uncomfortable about what was being posted and made the decision at that point to unwatch that thread.


I think the thread should be deleted because it is just so mean spirited and hateful. The climate in that thread is not right either but I guess freedom of speech and all that


----------



## MCF

mrsinsyder said:


> So you mention "Karen," but not the nicknames that women of color have been called for decades (Consuela, Shanaenae, Shaniqua, *Bonquiqui*, Ling-Ling, Pocahontas, etc., etc.).


Like I mentioned in a previous post, sometimes white people or the minority don't see what they are doing or saying as racist or could be taken as hurtful. For example the name Bonquiqui. I had no idea that that name has derogatory connotations. I use, well after reading this post, _used_ that name as a nickname for my dog. That name will be thrown out of circulation for me. 

I agree with everyone saying that the Meghan Markle and Prince Harry thread is toxic. I had to stop reading it because it was just too much. I also posted several times on the Kate Middleton and Price William thread about cutting out the Harry and Meghan talk. The hatred had spilled over to their thread. 

I think it will be hard to truly monitor everything that is being said on this forum because a lot of times racism/micro-aggressions can be so subtle that even the poster doesn't know they're doing it. For example, the people describing SA's on the LV or Hermes threads. Sometimes they include the person's ethnicity/race when it really isn't necessary. In my opinion some of these people could be considered racists while others could feel that they are just giving a good description of the SA. The difference of the two could be down to how the person would describe the SA if the SA was the same race as the poster. Would they include the SA's ethnicity/race in the description? I don't know if I'm making sense with this. 

Racism is hard. Generations of people have been severely damaged from it. Our world is damaged because of it. But I really appreciate that as of now this particular thread has been filled with articulate respectful comments and thoughtful responses about what is going on. I really hope we can all keep this up because I feel like this is how we're going to get things changed here.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

MCF said:


> Like I mentioned in a previous post, sometimes white people or the minority don't see what they are doing or saying as racist or could be taken as hurtful. For example the name Bonquiqui. I had no idea that that name has derogatory connotations. I use, well after reading this post, _used_ that name as a nickname for my dog. That name will be thrown out of circulation for me.
> 
> I agree with everyone saying that the Meghan Markle and Prince Harry thread is toxic. I had to stop reading it because it was just too much. I also posted several times on the Kate Middleton and Price William thread about cutting out the Harry and Meghan talk. The hatred had spilled over to their thread.
> 
> I think it will be hard to truly monitor everything that is being said on this forum because a lot of times racism/micro-aggressions can be so subtle that even the poster doesn't know they're doing it. For example, the people describing SA's on the LV or Hermes threads. Sometimes they include the person's ethnicity/race when it really isn't necessary. In my opinion some of these people could be considered racists while others could feel that they are just giving a good description of the SA. The difference of the two could be down to how the person would describe the SA if the SA was the same race as the poster. Would they include the SA's ethnicity/race in the description? I don't know if I'm making sense with this.
> 
> Racism is hard. Generations of people have been severely damaged from it. Our world is damaged because of it. But I really appreciate that as of now this particular thread has been filled with articulate respectful comments and thoughtful responses about what is going on. I really hope we can all keep this up because I feel like this is how we're going to get things changed here.


Meghan Markle will get brought up in threads that have nothing to do with the royals period and I’m always scratching my head wondering how she has anything to do with the thread topic. If I see it I call it out and ask that it not be brought into the thread because it has no place.


----------



## mrsinsyder

MCF said:


> Our world is damaged because of it. But I really appreciate that as of now this particular thread has been filled with articulate respectful comments and thoughtful responses about what is going on. I really hope we can all keep this up because I feel like this is how we're going to get things changed here.



I appreciate this thread too, it’s the first time it has felt like a (mostly) safe space on the forum to discuss these things. It’s one thing to talk about it in PMs, but it’s better to take a stand together and support each other!


----------



## haute okole

I am a person of color, a woman and also married to a white man with Hapa children.  Sometimes the things my husband says are completely ignorant and infuriating to me.  He is not a stupid man, but as a Caucasian man who was raised in the Mid-West, he is so completely unfamiliar with the complexities, customs, manners and language in non-Anglo American centric culture.  I am sure the things I say are completely infuriating to others who do not have the same background or history that I have.  I really believe, for the most part, that we are all trying the best we can based on what we know.  I have no space for people who are intentionally racist and hurtful.  However, immature and uneducated people can learn with patience.  Anger, although temporarily satisfying, is not productive.  I was taught by my very dark, Asian Dad, that as a dark, woman of color, I would have to rise above, academically and intellectually,  those making the rules.  As an Asian in America, I was told not to confront, but to infiltrate, rise within the ranks and make changes once we have risen with the tide.  It has worked for me, but I have had to swallow my words so many times that I suspect my white sisters and brothers have never been asked to confront.  I have also had to check my own anger, much to my own shame and awakening.  As much as my own anger has felt righteous, it has never served me well.


----------



## Vlad

Since it was brought up as a wish in this thread, you are welcome to send us an anonymous email via http://anonymouse.org/anonemail.html to tpf@purseblog.com


----------



## GhstDreamer

honybr said:


> I barely ever post but I was going to say if you want to see subtle racism just go look at the Meghan Markle thread.  It's awful!  One of the most recent posts is how awful her hair extensions are.  WOC are not the only ones who wear hair extensions but it's assumed Meghan is but their precious Kate never would.


I find that it is the same in the Lil Kim thread.  I remember how members were posting how all her plastic surgeries made her look like a freak, ugly and looking like she is Asian some time ago before I became an OG. Quite a few members said it and at the time, I thought it was a very racist regardless of what colour the members are who posted those comments (don't  know if those comments are still there) - I don't make that kind of assumption those comments could only be made by people of a particular race. So freak, ugly and Asian go together. I must be blind because I didn't think she looks Asian just like with Michael Jackson. I never thought after his surgeries he looked like a white person.


----------



## rose60610

then there's an entire thread dedicated to self proclaimed "bishes"   

a term used in numerous threads


----------



## chicinthecity777

This thread is moving fast!

@lulilu The Paris thread in Hermes section used to be covered in those type of comments regarding the queues, SAs etc. I don't see the point of mentioning SA or clients' race in majority of the stories unless the race is the only way to identify someone. I remember reading some posts with quite obvious racist undertones in Hermes forum, e.g. "Harrods was so full of far east/middle eastern / Russian / *insert any race flavour of the day* tourists and it's impacting my shopping experience!" I reported some at the beginning then I gave up because very few was actioned.

I lost count on how many times I read on the forum in different sections post to the effect of "made in China = bad quality", "made in China = things should be cheap, I am not paying $xxx for products MIC", "this product was sent from China it must be fake" etc (while in reality several countries were known to produce fakes). When on the odd occasion people point it out that the skills of Chinese workers are quite good and they are no longer as cheap as it used to be but it's automatically shouted down.  I didn't bother to report them because I knew it nothing would come of it. In case anybody is interested, I recommend you look into Hermes' pet brand Shang Xia. It brought the best of Chinese craftsperson-ship to consumers.

@MCF you raise some really good point! Loved your posts here. I see the difference between "making a racist remark" v.s. "being a chronic racist". Sometimes people are not as aware that something said could be taken as offensive. But some of those people can change if things are explained to them.

@Megs & @Vlad I really do feel for you. It's not easy as the forum is vast. You can't possibly read, investigate and action on everything because it wouldn't even be fair because the views are very polarised! You are not here to be the judge and jury or even educators. I totally get it that you don't want the forum to be overly moderated it's too close to censorship. And on top of that you have your business to worry about. I don't know what the solution is tbh. I personally don't like anonymous tip line because I feel it can be very easily abused and it's hard to follow up. But by all means try it. In the case of H&M thread, it was suggested before that we have 2 threads and I think we should do that. Hey we could even do that for KK etc! Another thing we could do is every now and then, send reminders/refreshes to members re the forum polices etc.

By the end of the day, I think most people come to this forum to see pretty material possessions! It's probably worth reminding ourselves too. So I am in supportive of no discussion of politics and religion. If I want to read serious stuff I just go to the BBC.

One more thing, a related thread I stumped upon: https://forum.purseblog.com/threads/was-it-a-form-of-racial-bullying.1030490/#post-33905455
It doesn't have a lot of replies but it's an interesting read.


----------



## minnnea

chicinthecity777 said:


> This thread is moving fast!
> 
> I lost count on how many times I read on the forum in different sections post to the effect of "made in China = bad quality", "made in China = things should be cheap, I am not paying $xxx for products MIC", "this product was sent from China it must be fake" etc (while in reality several countries were known to produce fakes). When on the odd occasion people point it out that the skills of Chinese workers are quite good and they are no longer as cheap as it used to be but it's automatically shouted down.  I didn't bother to report them because I knew it nothing would come of it. In case anybody is interested, I recommend you look into Hermes' pet brand Shang Xia. It brought the best of Chinese craftsperson-ship to consumers.



I am so so sorry to off-topic this further but the China = bad quality argument is so not this day. China has adopted good technologies and are making high tech and high quality stuff (too). And as you pointed out several brands have production partly in China and other countries considered cheaper than Europe. 

Made in is no guarantee of quality. This is strictly my personal opinion but on many occasions European brands produced outside Europe are actually rather good. Many companies have done good sourcing. Eg. I have two Mulberry bags, one made in China and one made in England. The Chinese bag is outstanding quality but the UK purse has lots of glueing issues. I have the same Longchamp strap, one made in France and one made in Tunisia. You can guess which is better made - the one made in Tunisia. 

Rather than being a made in issue the quality is a production (volume) issue.


----------



## chicinthecity777

minnnea said:


> I am so so sorry to off-topic this further but the China = bad quality argument is so not this day. China has adopted good technologies and are making high tech and high quality stuff (too). And as you pointed out several brands have production partly in China and other countries considered cheaper than Europe.
> 
> Made in is no guarantee of quality. This is strictly my personal opinion but on many occasions European brands produced outside Europe are actually rather good. Many companies have done good sourcing. Eg. I have two Mulberry bags, one made in China and one made in England. The Chinese bag is outstanding quality but the UK purse has lots of glueing issues. I have the same Longchamp strap, one made in France and one made in Tunisia. You can guess which is better made - the one made in Tunisia.
> 
> Rather than being a made in issue the quality is a production (volume) issue.


Thank you! I appreciate you chime in on this! I often felt that I am the lone voice in this!


----------



## minnnea

chicinthecity777 said:


> Thank you! I appreciate you chime in on this! I often felt that I am the lone voice in this!



This is important! I think it relates well to the theme and it is important to realize that even these type structures exist. We people often are prejudice maybe unintentionally and may have these type thoughts that only within a certain country or continent people are skilled enough to produce certain things for us. It may of course be that you want to support your local or because of tradition that you want your thing to be produced in country X (but since the sourcing is mostly global that is partly a hoax).


----------



## QuelleFromage

With regard to the Meghan and Harry thread, perhaps we simply need to start a MM fan thread. I'm not a big royals person, but occasionally like to check in on their style, and it's just not doable because of the vitriol in the thread. Maybe someone with a stronger stomach than me could report some of the worst posts in the existing thread.


----------



## rutabaga

rose60610 said:


> then there's an entire thread dedicated to self proclaimed "bishes"
> 
> a term used in numerous threads



I don't understand those types of threads. There's several of them that exist. Basically a group of members say hi/good morning to each other every day. Can't you use DM for that? Or exchange numbers and text privately? I don't see how these types of threads contribute to the board. *prepares for flames*


----------



## chicinthecity777

I want to add that I think it's worth bring up the "Ignore" function. I used to think it's a redundant function but I have used it in some cases and find it surprisingly useful! So I do recommend it! It's like cut-out that "toxic" relative/friend in your life it's really refreshing! @Megs & @Vlad have recently added new functions to ignore a sub-section. or a thread. I think it's worth looking into for some to utilise this also. By the end of the day, there is always going to be someone you just don't get along, so why prolong the interaction with them?

How do people think about this function?


----------



## mrsinsyder

What the heck is a bishes thread?


----------



## mrsinsyder

I don't mind the ignore function for people I just find annoying, but don't think it should be a substitute for moderating hate speech.


----------



## chicinthecity777

i*bella said:


> I don't understand those types of threads. There's several of them that exist. Basically a group of members say hi/good morning to each other every day. Can't you use DM for that? Or exchange numbers and text privately? I don't see how these types of threads contribute to the board. *prepares for flames*





mrsinsyder said:


> What the heck is a bishes thread?


I want to know too! Am I missing the goodies???


----------



## chicinthecity777

mrsinsyder said:


> I don't mind the ignore function for people I just find annoying, but don't think it should be a substitute for moderating hate speech.


I felt the same way in the past. But over the years (heck I have been here long enough!), I come to realise some people will never change, the liars will continue to lie, the chronic racist will continue to attack, and some will refuse to change their views and I am really not here for serious debates. For this particular incident that I originally raised, it was just something I have quietly found to be shocking and wanted to gauge if there might be others feel the same way. It actually wasn't confrontational.


----------



## minnnea

I think there is a bishes thread in general discussions however I am not sure if that is the one you are talking about. But I don’t think it is active anymore.


----------



## Megs

Thank you all so much for engaging in a really enlightening conversation with many viewpoints. I am so happy to be able to open it up for you, and us, to chat together. 

This is what I think makes a forum like ours great - the ability for people from all over the world with different backgrounds to share thoughts on everything under the sun. 

And there was a really nice thought provoking response in this thread with a poster saying she hoped we wouldn't delete it. I think many people that have been on the forum for a while know that I am not big on deleting comments and content here. I truly want for members to be able to speak openly and if there is an issue, allow that to be worked out together. That, of course, is not always the case and that's where moderating needs to come into play. As I said earlier, moderating can be hard in the way that we delete something clearly against our TOS and then we need to clean up the responses that follow. It's not because we are trying to change the conversation, but because I truly need to get rid of something off the board and need to delete what follows. 

I know we can't see every post, but I do believe we need to take an active role in checking in on known problematic threads and removing content that may be racist (even unintentionally, I do think many are still learning - myself included - that many seemingly light hearted comments may have racist undertones). By actively removing content like this, we can help make this a safer place for everyone. 

Vlad shared the anonymous form if you'd like to send anything to us. And I am reading every comment on this thread and seeing if there are some immediate changes we can make


----------



## Graw

Now we are giving B’s hits!  I forgot about this thread, they are up to B Part 4. 



rose60610 said:


> then there's an entire thread dedicated to self proclaimed "bishes"
> 
> a term used in numerous threads





i*bella said:


> I don't understand those types of threads. There's several of them that exist. Basically a group of members say hi/good morning to each other every day. Can't you use DM for that? Or exchange numbers and text privately? I don't see how these types of threads contribute to the board. *prepares for flames*





mrsinsyder said:


> What the heck is a bishes thread?





chicinthecity777 said:


> I want to know too! Am I missing the goodies???





minnnea said:


> I think there is a bishes thread in general discussions however I am not sure if that is the one you are talking about. But I don’t think it is active anymore.




See below :









						Bishes IV
					

CB!   I missed you.  I know I've said it a few times before.  But as I sit here on Christmas Eve......I think tomorrow I'm outta that game forum.   So where are all the Bishes at?  I am supposed to apologize for saying Merry Christmas and remembering military families at this time.  Pixel...




					forum.purseblog.com


----------



## Megs

Graw said:


> Now we are giving B’s hits!  I forgot about this thread, they are up to B Part 4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See below :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bishes IV
> 
> 
> CB!   I missed you.  I know I've said it a few times before.  But as I sit here on Christmas Eve......I think tomorrow I'm outta that game forum.   So where are all the Bishes at?  I am supposed to apologize for saying Merry Christmas and remembering military families at this time.  Pixel...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> forum.purseblog.com



I never really understood the threads, I thought it was an inside joke with an early group and just their own chat group. Plus when I google bishes I just get it corrected and get a bunch of information on bushes and where to buy new bushes... 

What am I missing?!


----------



## mrsinsyder

Megs said:


> I never really understood the threads, I thought it was an inside joke with an early group and just their own chat group. Plus when I google bishes I just get it corrected and get a bunch of information on bushes and where to buy new bushes...
> 
> What am I missing?!


I read a few pages and don't understand what's happening, I must be too old


----------



## QuelleFromage

Megs said:


> I can see where you are coming from here.
> 
> We typically have the stance that if we remove a post for violating TOS for whatever reason, we also remove the comments back to the post. If we were to leave your comment up for example, it would read out of place with the deleted comment. A mod can come in and say something like "No racism will be tolerated" but it wouldn't show the poster with his original comment and yours.
> 
> It's a tricky situation because we want to immediately remove that and then remove subsequent chat that happened around it. But that leaves no one seeing what was said or maybe learning that what was said was offensive and shouldn't be said. I am actually not sure how we can moderate that better going forward... just talking out loud here...


This makes sense, Megs, and I know it's far from an easy job. In this particular case (I'm pretty sure the mods in question are no longer mods) it was upsetting that both mods and posters were completely dismissive of my concern about the term. But that's the past.

I know it would create extra work, but perhaps a workable approach might be replacing a deleted post with a statement like "if you'd like to know why this post was deleted click here" and lead to a page that explains tPF's stance on the issue. Then if anyone needs an explanation of exactly what was wrong they can ask. Just an idea. 

I really, really, really appreciate the open discussions that are happening here.


----------



## eunaddict

.


----------



## chicinthecity777

Graw said:


> Now we are giving B’s hits!  I forgot about this thread, they are up to B Part 4.
> See below :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bishes IV
> 
> 
> CB!   I missed you.  I know I've said it a few times before.  But as I sit here on Christmas Eve......I think tomorrow I'm outta that game forum.   So where are all the Bishes at?  I am supposed to apologize for saying Merry Christmas and remembering military families at this time.  Pixel...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> forum.purseblog.com


Looks like just people chatting. So do carry on...


----------



## rose60610

I'm not a fan of the "anonymous email box". There have been numerous contentious arguments/discussions/pointed comments written directly and confrontationally by PF members to other PF members for all to see, and now all of a sudden there's a desire for anonymity? We already go by aliases on this site. Of all the people to be wary of, my impression is that Meg and Vlad are at the bottom of that list. Ultimately, this is their website and their business and as such they can do whatever they want. More power to them.

From what I've seen on the Web, this website is one of the most benign sites. It is clear that there are some who absolutely thrive on confrontation and hone in on a handbag site to practice their craft, but they're few and far between and given the side eye or yanked by mods. I find it interesting that someone who said on Post #116 they spend a lot on fashion items then feels empowered to suggest to others how and where to spend their money, to political groups and campaigns that support specific categories and then goes on to say that politics is "no longer about two teams, it's about good vs. evil", and Melania ***** is "part and parcel" of human suffering. And she also says she "isn't shaming anyone's personal decisions" but wonders why Melania ***** has a "thread" here at all (it's in the style forum, just as Michelle ***** has one). 

The dig at imperialism was a nice veiled attempt to balance the argument, but falls a little flat. I think websites with an ".org" suffix are better resources with broader audiences to promote one's suggestions how others should spend their money even while stating they're "not shaming anyone". 

Highlighting racism and classism in the fashion world, an industry we are all kindred spirits of, assists in demonstrating that racism isn't "about two teams". Racism can be found everywhere. Racism is on everyone's "team". Nobody's "team" is immune or can wear the halo of holier-than-thou-self righteousness with a straight face.  For anybody to call others "evil" and others "good" based on "teams" does nothing to end racism, does nothing to end exploitation, does nothing to end inequality-- but does do everything to perpetuate them. Isn't that the point? Hijacking others' misery under the pretense of "caring" to raise money for a cause?


----------



## sdkitty

chicinthecity777 said:


> We also have additional information which led us to believe she's not genuine in this instance.
> 
> But like I said, I can't force the admin to do anything. I for once want to see action rather than just lip service in fighting against racism.


I noticed that avatar and kinda wondered about it.  I wasn't aware of that person posting racist comments....strange.  why would she use that avatar?


----------



## chicinthecity777

sdkitty said:


> I noticed that avatar and kinda wondered about it.  I wasn't aware of that person posting racist comments....strange.  why would she use that avatar?


My guess is passive-aggressively getting at people. A member here told me that the image looks a lot like the blackamoor pin Princess Michael of Kent wore to insult MM.


----------



## keodi

chicinthecity777 said:


> Diet Prada is a good account on IG to follow (a fellow member tipped me off), who is very good at calling out racism and hypocrisy in general.


Diet Prada is a great account that opened up my eyes to a lot!


papertiger said:


> The product is made in Italy, the company Pat McGrath Labs is a US company with its HQ apparently at 126 5th Avenue New York, NY 10011 United States (although Pat is British of course)


I had no idea!! thanks for sharing that!


mrsinsyder said:


> I used to post in there a lot because I can't stand either of them, but it just became too much and I had to back away. I started seeing the racism pop up more and more. I can't expect others to do better if I'm not willing to do so myself.


I remember seeing you there, your posts was always respectful. That thread was just too toxic, so I unfollowed.


Mimmy said:


> I remember “seeing” you there and I recall that even though “you couldn’t stand them” you were respectful.  Although I was a fan I got tired of being attacked and called a “stan”. If a positive post was made not just one but several people would pile on. *For some reason it was not acceptable to post differing opinions and that is what I thought makes a thread interesting.*
> I quit posting but would still lurk. I then saw that more of the posts were just becoming ways to express subtle and not so subtle racism.
> 
> I found myself actually becoming uncomfortable about what was being posted and made the decision at that point to unwatch that thread.


very true, definitely toxic environment, and I unfollowed for the same reasons..


----------



## Christina48576

tulipfield said:


> We need systemic change to make sure everyone has a roof over their head, healthcare, an education, etc., and to that end I would suggest in the vaguest terms (to be permissible on this forum?) to balance your consumption of luxury goods with support of politics that help low-wage workers, the homeless, the environment, etc. By "support" I meant vote, but also donate to _political_ groups and campaigns (obviously all this varies depending on where you live). I very much _do not_ mean philanthropy, which is basically a band-aid that doesn't solve these problems at their root and that gives the wealthy a convenient tax write-off as well as all kinds of undeserved kudos.



I so agree and thank you, your comment is so smart and captures how I am feeling so succinctly. I am also white-passing hispanic and this article really drove it home for me that I, and we in general, need to use our money wisely to show certain businesses that their practices and stances will not be tolerated cough*Dolce*cough* I for one have reevaluated my priorities and privilege. I will still buy things that I enjoy, but I have the privilege to donate in support of policies that work to end systematic racism and therefore, believe I should do all I can because of that privilege. The Atlantic article shows it isn't simply a US issue, but an international problem.



tulipfield said:


> I would also add that I find it incredibly frustrating the way the rule about "political" discussion is (or is not) applied here. Why is there a Melania ***** thread allowed in this forum at all? It should be incredibly clear by now that politics is not about two teams (US context here) with equally valid points of view. It's about right and wrong, about real human suffering that Melania ***** is part and parcel of.



People love to give Melania a pass but she has shown herself to be *virulently *racist. I for one, cannot separate the things she's said and done from the nice Birkin she sports. Also who gets to decide what political means? Who is racist isn't political to me, but usually it's white people who get to decide. *sigh*


----------



## chicinthecity777

@Megs @Vlad @papertiger The same avatar has been put back on!


----------



## papertiger

chicinthecity777 said:


> @Megs @Vlad @papertiger The same avatar has been put back on!



I'm afraid I don't have the jurisdiction to change people's avatars but I am sure @Megs and @Vlad will be sure to get onto it soon as they next check in


----------



## Megs

Hi all - I am handling the avatar in question. But we can't have members discussing others openly, that's always been one of our rules! Thanks!


----------



## ladysarah

Hi all- apologies if my avatar 'offended' . Please note it is the work of a well established London Artist, but I guess you could not possibly know that...


----------



## ladysarah

sdkitty said:


> I noticed that avatar and kinda wondered about it.  I wasn't aware of that person posting racist comments....strange.  why would she use that avatar?


That's probably because 'that' member, (which is me) never actually posted racists comments?  But some people here have the tendency to project their own thoughts and shortcomings on others...


----------



## limom

Wow, maybe it is a cultural difference?
I am assuming that Lady Sarah is British.
Is it in bad taste to use someone of another race as an avatar?


----------



## sdkitty

limom said:


> Wow, maybe it is a cultural difference?
> I am assuming that Lady Sarah is British.
> Is it in bad taste to use someone of another race as an avatar?


I think the reason people were offended was they thought before that avatar she posted racist comments...


----------



## Megs

Hi all - as I stated earlier in this thread, I am always happy to allow you all to discuss topics openly, but we don't allow discussing other members. If that member wants to chat openly in a thread with you, and it follows our TOS, that is completely fine. But I am sure you can understand that we don't want to discuss members. 

Always PM me about concerns you have and I assure you I will look into it and handle it. I know some are frustrated that things seem to move slower than you'd like or the outcome is different than you'd like, but many times I am coming into a situation not knowing the entire history and I need to look into past posts, reported messages, etc. We have a way to monitor members, based on reported posts, warnings issued over time, and past posts. I am always looking out for the best interest of the community. 

Also, I really do like to allow natural conversation to flow, but we can not allow political talk on the forums. That has always been in our rules, and while I understand how hard it can be to keep it out at times, it is still a rule we've always had. I will (and have) needed to delete some political commentary in this thread. 

Please PM me if you have any questions or concerns at any time!


----------



## limom

sdkitty said:


> I think the reason people were offended was they thought before that avatar she posted racist comments...


Some posters were referring to virtual black face, just wanted to make sure.


----------



## mrsinsyder

limom said:


> Is it in bad taste to use someone of another race as an avatar?


It can be problematic because it somewhat implies that the white person has enough privilege that they can change their race as they see fit. Being a minority in most places isn't fun or cutesy so IMO it's tacky to use someone else's image as your own. White people sometimes feel very empowered to play around with other races for entertainment.

Just my opinion and definitely not directed at anyone specific.


----------



## mrsinsyder

@limom I have to add that I enjoy your thoughtful questions in here


----------



## limom

mrsinsyder said:


> It can be problematic because it somewhat implies that the white person has enough privilege that they can change their race as they see fit. Being a minority in most places isn't fun or cutesy so IMO it's tacky to use someone else's image as your own.
> 
> Just MO.


Thanks for taking the time to explain.


----------



## sdkitty

mrsinsyder said:


> It can be problematic because it somewhat implies that the white person has enough privilege that they can change their race as they see fit. Being a minority in most places isn't fun or cutesy so IMO it's tacky to use someone else's image as your own. White people sometimes feel very empowered to play around with other races for entertainment.
> 
> Just my opinion and definitely not directed at anyone specific.


usually here on the PF (which is basically my social media) if someone uses an image of a black woman as their avatar I assume the member is a WOC


----------



## mrsinsyder

sdkitty said:


> usually here on the PF (which is basically my social media) if someone uses an image of a black woman as their avatar I assume the member is a WOC


Right... I mean, I don't assume you're a cat and I'm sure you know I'm not a moai, but when I see it's a person/non-celeb I assume the person behind the avatar shares common features.


----------



## chicinthecity777

limom said:


> Is it in bad taste to use someone of another race as an avatar?


I am British and I can assure you it is very bad taste!


----------



## limom

chicinthecity777 said:


> I am British and I can assure you it is very bad taste here!


I had no clue.


----------



## chicinthecity777

Just want to clarify the


limom said:


> I had no clue.


Just google "why is blackface / brown face racist" and you will get some good results.


----------



## limom

chicinthecity777 said:


> Just want to clarify the
> 
> Just google "why is blackface / brown face racist" and you will get some good results.


I know that doing black/brown face irl is racist, I did not know that choosing a person of a different race as an avatar was suspect when the person chosen was famous.
Like if I used Halle Berry as an avatar for instance. 
Now I know.


----------



## chicinthecity777

limom said:


> I know that doing black/brown face irl is racist, I did not know that choosing a person of a different race as an avatar was suspect when the person chosen was famous.
> Like if I used Halle Berry as an avatar for instance.
> Now I know.


Everything went virtual nowadays! I think the same principle applies. I can't imagine anybody doing it IRL! That would be riot!


----------



## mrsinsyder

limom said:


> I know that doing black/brown face irl is racist, I did not know that choosing a person of a different race as an avatar was suspect when the person chosen was famous.
> Like if I used Halle Berry as an avatar for instance.
> Now I know.


On websites/forums that are primarily visited by people of color, it's a huge no no for a white person to use a POC avatar because a lot of people see it as infiltrating. That obviously doesn't apply to TPF but it's more food for thought.

Trolls will post racist things but hide behind an avatar of a different race to make it seem "not racist."


----------



## limom

mrsinsyder said:


> On websites/forums that are primarily visited by people of color, it's a huge no no for a white person to use a POC avatar because a lot of people see it as infiltrating. That obviously doesn't apply to TPF but it's more food for thought.
> 
> Trolls will post racist things but hide behind an avatar of a different race to make it seem "not racist."


Thanks.


chicinthecity777 said:


> Everything went virtual nowadays! I think the same principle applies. I can't imagine anybody doing it IRL! That would be riot!


I meant Caucasians disguising themselves for Halloween a la Trudeau.


----------



## chicinthecity777

limom said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I meant Caucasians disguising themselves for Halloween a la Trudeau.


Yeah forgot about those!


----------



## sdkitty

OT but sometimes when a person here who seems to be female uses a male pic as an avatar (and maybe it's a celeb I don't recognize) I wonder why it's being used


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

> Hi all- apologies if my avatar 'offended' . Please note it is the work of a well established London Artist, but I guess you could not possibly know that...
> 
> That's probably because 'that' member, (which is me) never actually posted racists comments?  But some people here have the tendency to project their own thoughts and shortcomings on others...
> 
> I am sorry my avatar was offensive. It was not my intention but I realize I need to learn more. I will do my own research but if anyone has suggestions I would appreciate resources to start. I care and am committed to doing better.






mrsinsyder said:


> Right... I mean, I don't assume you're a cat and I'm sure you know I'm not a moai, but when I see it's a person/non-celeb I assume the person behind the avatar shares common features.



This made me imagine my cat posting...!


----------



## Christina48576

I also remember a white woman wearing a blackamoor piece of jewelry in an Hermes scarf thread a while ago. I believe I reported it, but I don't remember anything ever coming from it. I wasn't quite sure what to do about it at the time, especially because I don't post much.


----------



## sdkitty

Christina48576 said:


> I also remember a white woman wearing a blackamoor piece of jewelry in an Hermes scarf thread a while ago. I believe I reported it, but I don't remember anything ever coming from it. I wasn't quite sure what to do about it at the time, especially because I don't post much.


I wonder if it could have been just ignorance.....I don't think I'd know a blackmoor piece if I saw it - though maybe now after seeing the discussions her I'd have some idea


----------



## Christina48576

sdkitty said:


> I wonder if it could have been just ignorance.....I don't think I'd know a blackmoor piece if I saw it - though maybe now after seeing the discussions her I'd have some idea


I'm sure it was. It's so difficult on the internet to not come across like I'm accusing someone of something but trying to educate in good faith. I too learned not too long ago from this incident...








						Princess wears 'racist' brooch to royal lunch with Meghan Markle
					

The apology came after Princess Michael of Kent wore a blackamoor brooch on her left shoulder to the queen's annual Christmas lunch at Buckingham Palace.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## chicinthecity777

sdkitty said:


> I wonder if it could have been just ignorance.....I don't think I'd know a blackmoor piece if I saw it - though maybe now after seeing the discussions her I'd have some idea





Christina48576 said:


> I'm sure it was. It's so difficult on the internet to not come across like I'm accusing someone of something but trying to educate in good faith. I too learned not too long ago from this incident...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Princess wears 'racist' brooch to royal lunch with Meghan Markle
> 
> 
> The apology came after Princess Michael of Kent wore a blackamoor brooch on her left shoulder to the queen's annual Christmas lunch at Buckingham Palace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


The so-called apology reads "Princess Michael is very sorry and distressed that [the brooch] has caused offence." So she was sorry about the the offence it has caused, but she's not sorry for having worn it in the first place!  Sounds familiar?

Yes, some people truly just didn't know. When it was explained to them, they learn from it. Those are not racist. But someone like this Princess Michael is actually quite infamous for being a racist. And she knew exactly what she was doing and would never change because they don't want to!


----------



## 880

Christina48576 said:


> I'm sure it was. It's so difficult on the internet to not come across like I'm accusing someone of something but trying to educate in good faith. I too learned not too long ago from this incident...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Princess wears 'racist' brooch to royal lunch with Meghan Markle
> 
> 
> The apology came after Princess Michael of Kent wore a blackamoor brooch on her left shoulder to the queen's annual Christmas lunch at Buckingham Palace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUO
> 
> 
> mrsinsyder said:
> 
> 
> 
> On websites/forums that are primarily visited by people of color, it's a huge no no for a white person to use a POC avatar because a lot of people see it as infiltrating. That obviously doesn't apply to TPF but it's more food for thought.
> Trolls will post racist things but hide behind an avatar of a different race to make it seem "not racist."
Click to expand...


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

I think the way a person apologizes (or not) speaks volumes about whether it was a mistake. When people show you who they are believe them.


----------



## chicinthecity777

880 said:


> i think I read somewhere that *princess margaret ’justified’ her collection of blackamoor brooches as art.*
> but seen in the context of where she knowingly chose to wear it, Art was a pretext. The same with confederate statues. I believe I read somewhere that the date of their inception coincided with a concerted effort to whitewash the confederate causes, not as pro slavery, but pro states rights. . . While states rights obviously was a part of the Southern justification, it negates the entire slave debate. Sadly I don’t remember the specific articles I read about either issue. . . On the mask thread I posted another Atlantic article about the cognitive dissonance of anti maskers to justify certain behavior. . . To me, there are similarities in attitudes in the sense that both stem from entitlement (princess Margaret also justified hereditory superiority of some people over others) and less respect of others perception. this is JMO and awkwardly articulated. . . I’m learning as well.
Click to expand...


Yes one could argue that a particular object / artefact is art (some of them are beautifully made nonetheless). However, it is not just about the artefact itself, right? It's all about the context it's been used. In Princess Michael's case, she deliberately chose this particular pin when she met with MM for lunch. I mean really? She couldn't find another generic pin to wear? To me that's the issue!


----------



## chicinthecity777

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I think the way a person apologizes (or not) speaks volumes about whether it was a mistake. When people show you who they are believe them.


Exactly!


----------



## 880

apologies 
I meant to reference the two quotes above, but could not get my reply outside of the second quote.


----------



## eunaddict

sdkitty said:


> OT but sometimes when a person here who seems to be female uses a male pic as an avatar (and maybe it's a celeb I don't recognize) I wonder why it's being used



I mean, on some online games I use a male avatar, sometimes it's easier to pretend to be a male online because you get much fewer pervy PMs and a lot less harassment, and in cooperative games you don't get young men grumpy at losing a round blame it on you because you're so obviously a woman - this is another issue entirely, I know. I've been doing this since my early teens when online gaming just started, it just always felt "safer"; which again, is a problem and I'll happily acknowledge that there are sectors of gaming that are very sexist.

There are also famous (straight cis-gendered) male gamers on youtube who occasionally play as female avatars because they like the clothing options, customizations, the play-through more.

I get that TPF is a fairly safe, female-dominated forum but old habits sometimes die hard?

ETA: To be fair though, there are plenty of non-internationally known celebs that people crush on; I'm Asian, and the celebs I liked growing up are definitely unknowns outside of my country.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Just saw this and thought it might be on topic and helpful here...


----------



## MCF

sdkitty said:


> OT but sometimes when a person here who seems to be female uses a male pic as an avatar (and maybe it's a celeb I don't recognize) I wonder why it's being used


It's probably a celeb you don't recognize or someone special to them. I don't see a problem with a male or female using the opposite gender/sex as their avatar. I've thought about changing mine to David Bowie or Iggy Pop but couldn't be bothered. 

I think this is where it starts to get tricky. Especially when it's a privileged person using/wearing/etc something that was created by a minority. When is it appreciation and not appropriation? This kinda ties back into the original article that was posted. Fashion has always borrowed from cultures around the world whether it was fabrics and colors used in a specific culture or drawing inspiration from the various sub-cultures like the Harajuku girls. When have we gone too far?


----------



## mrsinsyder

MCF said:


> It's probably a celeb you don't recognize or someone special to them. I don't see a problem with a male or female using the opposite gender/sex as their avatar. I've thought about changing mine to David Bowie or Iggy Pop but couldn't be bothered.
> 
> I think this is where it starts to get tricky. Especially when it's a privileged person using/wearing/etc something that was created by a minority. When is it appreciation and not appropriation? This kinda ties back into the original article that was posted. Fashion has always borrowed from cultures around the world whether it was fabrics and colors used in a specific culture or drawing inspiration from the various sub-cultures like the Harajuku girls. When have we gone too far?


I have recently fallen in love with Tatcha skincare but found out that their entire marketing gimmick is capitalizing off of the storied history of Geishas. I'm so bummed!


----------



## 880

mrsinsyder said:


> I have recently fallen in love with Tatcha skincare but found out that their entire marketing gimmick is a white lady capitalizing off of the storied history of Geishas. I'm so bummed!


Mrsinsyder, hope it’s not terribly unPC of me to say, you could write a letter about how much you adore the skincare but you feel their marketing campaign misses the mark in these changing times _and_ continue to stick with the skincare that works for you? It’s just it’s hard to find what works. . .


----------



## rutabaga

mrsinsyder said:


> I have recently fallen in love with Tatcha skincare but found out that their entire marketing gimmick is capitalizing off of the storied history of Geishas. I'm so bummed!



At least the founder is of Asian descent. Some people are surprised when they learn that Tatcha is an American (and not Japanese) brand. I dislike Tatcha for other reasons... they sold out so bad and and got sold to Unilever.


----------



## doni

The strictly-speaking Blackamoor (the term has gone to include a whole array of different things) that are to this day being produced in Venice were arguably originally not dismissive of people of color in that on the contrary, they depicted African princes and merchants (definitely not servants or slaves) who were well considered and integrated in that ********** world (think Othello) and were reflective of its openness relative to other places in that the time. No matter, as they have merged with other representations and are prone to cause offense, and with good reason, that is what matters.
As for Princess Michael of Kent I believe she is of course a racist, but she is a snob maybe even more. She knew perfectly well what she was doing when she wore that brooch and I think her message went further, a kind of telling Meghan, all you can aspire to be is one of those Venetian “princes”, squarely belonging to a bourgeois merchant society, who would never make it to her beloved Gotha. She probably chuckled at all that middle class racist fuss. For people like her, and fortunately there are very few of them, it is all about class.


----------



## mrsinsyder

i*bella said:


> At least the founder is of Asian descent. Some people are surprised when they learn that Tatcha is an American (and not Japanese) brand. I dislike Tatcha for other reasons... they sold out so bad and and got sold to Unilever.


Unilever?! Wow I had no idea. Womp.


----------



## eunaddict

i*bella said:


> *At least the founder is of Asian descent*. Some people are surprised when they learn that Tatcha is an American (and not Japanese) brand. I dislike Tatcha for other reasons... they sold out so bad and and got sold to Unilever.




OoF. While we're at it, can we stop with that as well? Asians aren't a homogenous group. Tatcha was created by an American of Taiwanese heritage (she claims it was a love letter to Japanese beauty traditions), saying at least the founder is of Asian descent is like going out for Italian food and saying "Well, at least the chef is of European descent." Hollywood and fashion have a long history of lumping all of Asia (similarly all of Africa) together as a group and going LOOK representation .

And it matters. There's a reason why Crazy Rich Asians was so lauded in Western countries but flopped in almost every Asian market that mattered (except Singapore, but even reviews there said it was more of curiosity about how the city-state was portrayed than anything else and even then it still didn't rake in the normal Hollywood movie revenue IIRC), speaking for my friends and I...we thought it was still pandering to Western audiences' expectations of what "Asian society" was like, and it was less a lauding of the "Asian" characters and more a flashy movie of how the 1% live. Like Wolf of Wall Street but pretending to be a little less shallow.


----------



## rutabaga

eunaddict said:


> OoF. While we're at it, can we stop with that as well? Asians aren't a homogenous group. Tatcha was created by an American of Taiwanese heritage (she claims it was a love letter to Japanese beauty traditions), saying at least the founder is of Asian descent is like going out for Italian food and saying "Well, at least the chef is of European descent." Hollywood and fashion have a long history of lumping all of Asia (similarly all of Africa) together as a group and going LOOK representation .



Yes, I'm aware that Asians aren't a homogenous group. I'm of Asian descent. Taiwan has a lot of Japanese influences, so it's not surprising that a Taiwanese-American woman would be interested in Japan and Japanese skincare. It's less icky to me than if a non-POC was interested in Japanese skincare.


----------



## 880

doni said:


> e strictly-speaking Blackamoor (the term has gone to include a whole array of different things) that are to this day being produced in Venice were arguably originally not dismissive of people of color in that on the contrary, they depicted African princes and merchants (definitely not servants or slaves) who were well considered and integrated in that ********** world (think Othello) and were reflective of its openness relative to other places in that the time. No matter, as they have merged with other representations and are prone to cause offense, and with good reason, that is what matters.


Doni, when I read your posts in this thread and others, I enjoy them; I learn from them; and, they help crystallize what are vague, inarticulated blobs inside my head into something more coherent! Thank you! Off to google Tatcha skincare!


----------



## MCF

eunaddict said:


> OoF. While we're at it, can we stop with that as well? *Asians aren't a homogenous group*. Tatcha was created by an American of Taiwanese heritage (she claims it was a love letter to Japanese beauty traditions), saying at least the founder is of Asian descent is like going out for Italian food and saying "Well, at least the chef is of European descent." *Hollywood and fashion have a long history of lumping all of Asia (similarly all of Africa) together as a group* and going LOOK representation .
> 
> And it matters. There's a reason why Crazy Rich Asians was so lauded in Western countries but flopped in almost every Asian market that mattered (except Singapore, but even reviews there said it was more of curiosity about how the city-state was portrayed than anything else and even then it still didn't rake in the normal Hollywood movie revenue IIRC), speaking for my friends and I...we thought it was still pandering to Western audiences' expectations of what "Asian society" was like, and it was less a lauding of the "Asian" characters and more a flashy movie of how the 1% live. Like Wolf of Wall Street but pretending to be a little less shallow.



Thank you for bringing this up. It's another thing, as an outsider (white/American), I find confusing and didn't know could be disrespectful. Growing up in America, I thought Asian just meant people who had different shaped eyes/eyelids than Westerners i.e. White people did. Obviously this is painfully wrong but I never gave it much thought. I never looked at a map and looked at Asia and what countries are in Asia. When I married a Brit and moved to the UK for several years I kept hearing people being referred to as Asian. When I would meet the said person they would be of Indian decent. I didn't get it. I thought they weren't Asian but Indian. My husband simply said "India is in Asia. They could be called Asian." (I know that someone from India might take offense to being called Asian or vise versa but I will lump that into personal identity right now to kinda simplify things.) That's when I started to really look at maps. I had a discussion with my dad and husband about this. My dad worked in Kazakstan for several years and I always referred to it as Russia (which was wrong). Dad said it was in Asia as was Russia. Blew my mind again. Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, all in Asia. It was like my brain couldn't remember it because I was so set on what I thought an Asian person would look like. 

BTW being married to someone from a different country has really opened up my eyes, and his, to what could be discriminatory or offensive. It's pretty interesting.


----------



## 880

OT, but i was like WTF in an amused way when I saw this quote in a guardian article

In 2018 Indra Nooyi, the chief executive of the Doritos parent company, PepsiCo, told Freakonomics Radio that the company was considering a range of female-centric snacks. Women “don’t like to crunch [Doritos] too loudly in public”, Nooyi explained. “And they don’t lick their fingers generously.”








						Bacardi's 'lady vodka': the latest in a long line of depressing gendered products | Arwa Mahdawi
					

Why a new line of vodka ‘by women, for women’ is pointless and pernicious; plus promise on a Covid-19 vaccine, and unethical Ivanka




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## limom

880 said:


> OT, but i was like WTF in an amused way when I saw this quote in a guardian article
> 
> In 2018 Indra Nooyi, the chief executive of the Doritos parent company, PepsiCo, told Freakonomics Radio that the company was considering a range of female-centric snacks. Women “don’t like to crunch [Doritos] too loudly in public”, Nooyi explained. “And they don’t lick their fingers generously.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bacardi's 'lady vodka': the latest in a long line of depressing gendered products | Arwa Mahdawi
> 
> 
> Why a new line of vodka ‘by women, for women’ is pointless and pernicious; plus promise on a Covid-19 vaccine, and unethical Ivanka
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


What is the point of a low alcohol vodka?


----------



## Megs

880 said:


> OT, but i was like WTF in an amused way when I saw this quote in a guardian article
> 
> In 2018 Indra Nooyi, the chief executive of the Doritos parent company, PepsiCo, told Freakonomics Radio that the company was considering a range of female-centric snacks. Women “don’t like to crunch [Doritos] too loudly in public”, Nooyi explained. “And they don’t lick their fingers generously.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bacardi's 'lady vodka': the latest in a long line of depressing gendered products | Arwa Mahdawi
> 
> 
> Why a new line of vodka ‘by women, for women’ is pointless and pernicious; plus promise on a Covid-19 vaccine, and unethical Ivanka
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



Don't come by me and my snacks then, because I will crunch them and I will lick my fingers when needed. Granted, the idea of licking my fingers in these COVID times gives me the creeps!


----------



## Mimmy

I am still trying to make meaningful changes in the way that I contribute to my community and society as a whole. Lofty ideas I know but change has to start somewhere.

Possibly I was engaging in my own form of performative activism in saying that I was going to buy a bag from a Black owned company. Would I have posted it on my Instagram? Yes, probably. I still plan to be more aware of the companies that I support.

Instead, for the moment I decided to contribute to a foundation that supports Black youth in an underserved area. I regularly contribute to other organizations but this is a new one for me.

No, I don’t think that I deserve a medal. I just don’t want meaningful discussion to stop.


----------



## dooneybaby

papertiger said:


> That I don't know them and haven't read them, but have heard 'Karen' several thousand times just goes to show IMO.



Shaquana, Shakeesha, Shanika. Take your pick. They are names used when talking about a black girl/woman who stereotypically acts like she's from the hood. And those names have been used for years, and years and years. 
We can also get into names for other ethnicities. 
The use of "Karen" to describe an entitled white girl/woman is fairly new. And it's been used more and more because more of these incidents have been captured on video.  
 This is the definition from Wikipedia: *Karen* is a pejorative term used in the United States and other English-speaking countries for a woman perceived to be entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is considered appropriate or necessary. A common stereotype is that of a white woman who uses her privilege to demand her own way at the expense of others. 

As a black woman, I don't think that the use of "Karen" downplays the person's evil intent because pretty much everyone knows what it means. It's a given that a "Karen" is evil.  
Do I use the word "Karen?" No. I use something much stronger that I can't post in this forum.


----------



## dooneybaby

And THAT'S the problem with racism or prejudice. It's so ingrained into society that when called out, many people deny it. 
You also have to remember that threads like this are very new. I'm a black woman in her 50s, and 2020 is the very first time I recall that a number of people who are not of color have not only been willing to discuss racism, but some of them have initiated the conversation. So of course there are going to be some people who continue to be defensive when discussing the issue. 
As a matter of fact, it's being discussed so much now that many times, to me, it feels a little disingenuous. I mean, "Where the heck were they 20 years ago? 10 years ago? 5 years old? Heck, LAST YEAR? 
And in all honesty, I think a lot of people are just jumping on the bandwagon because race is "trending." Had a good percentage of white people not spoken up, others would have continued to remain silent.


----------



## GhstDreamer

MCF said:


> Thank you for bringing this up. It's another thing, as an outsider (white/American), I find confusing and didn't know could be disrespectful. Growing up in America, I thought Asian just meant people who had different shaped eyes/eyelids than Westerners i.e. White people did. Obviously this is painfully wrong but I never gave it much thought. I never looked at a map and looked at Asia and what countries are in Asia. *When I married a Brit and moved to the UK for several years I kept hearing people being referred to as Asian. When I would meet the said person they would be of Indian decent. I didn't get it. I thought they weren't Asian but Indian.* My husband simply said "India is in Asia. They could be called Asian." (I know that someone from India might take offense to being called Asian or vise versa but I will lump that into personal identity right now to kinda simplify things.) That's when I started to really look at maps. I had a discussion with my dad and husband about this. My dad worked in Kazakstan for several years and I always referred to it as Russia (which was wrong). Dad said it was in Asia as was Russia. Blew my mind again. Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, all in Asia. It was like my brain couldn't remember it because I was so set on what I thought an Asian person would look like.
> 
> BTW being married to someone from a different country has really opened up my eyes, and his, to what could be discriminatory or offensive. It's pretty interesting.



In England, Asians don't refer to people of Northeast Asian descent like Chinese, Japanese and Korean. Asians refer to people who are from India, Pakistan and I am assuming other parts of Southeast Asia. I believe it is still acceptable in England to refer Northeast Asians as Orientals. Whereas here in North America, it is considered derogatory. I personally don't have an issue with it though I do understand the colonial racial context behind referring to someone as Oriental.

Living in North America, I usually use the word Asian but that itself raises an issue in North America. Not all Asian ethnic groups face the same or different hurdles or discrimination historically and presently. There are a few websites and books about the Chinese exclusion act in Canada and the US (*****'s racist rhetoric is very reminiscent of the early 1900's racist attitudes towards the Chinese), the use of Chinese and Indigenous workers to build railroads because a black or a white worker's life was literally worth 3x more, the killing of Vincent Chin - a racially motivated killing in which the murderers mistaken Vincent as Japanese and got away with just probation and $3000 fine. The court symbolically issued $3k license to kill Asians. There was a really good documentary made about this. Hate crimes against Asians are rarely considered as hate crimes by police officers and the law even nowadays. I think BLM helped raised issues surrounding racism and xenophobia against all POC and ethnic minorities that those stories are now being shared as well. I hate being political on a non-political site but we have to thank people who are involved in BLM for being vocal, being active and committed to making positive change happen. I can name numerous times in which I was racially harassed: one time I was told to get out of my car so they can hang me, I have been refused service at a pub and a cafe, I was spat on, told to get out of the country, name-calling is a big one, being told my English is excellent, etc.


----------



## papertiger

I agree, this debate is happening because it's trending. It's great that people who never spoke before are finding their voice. It's right that people speak if they want to. It's also right that people stay quiet for the same reason, or because they feel they can't contribute in a meaningful way or simply have nothing to say.

23 family members were murdered because of their race. They were not called Shaquana, Shakeesha, Shanika _or _Karen, all the women were called 'Sarah' and all the men 'Israel' for convenience and reduced to a number, and hair (for wigs or stuffing sofas) fat (for soap) and skin (lampshades). They weren't just called those names, it was written by law.  

70 + years ago the same people were told they were too dark, too oriental, too much like the desert and too poor. Now though still to too dark for some, they're also too light, too white, too much like the city and too rich. Not just some, but all. Total stereotypes. In the UK, especially in London we're called 'Beckys' and I'm additionally often called 'Natasha' because of my original nationality (code for prostitute). There is a lot of anti-Eastern-European racism in London, wherever someone's from, the British always think they're from Poland or Romania (perhaps those are the only Eastern-European countries they know?). I won't be told what I am and what I'm not, not by anybody.

After having being separated from my mother at 3 years old because only one of us was allowed to leave the state, our 'race' written on our passports. After having attended a school where parents had to patrol the playground in case the extremist decided to blow us up as threatened with consistent phone calls to the school office. After catching-up at school in a third language, striving for acceptance I went to a 'very good' school, one of the few UK 'good schools' that didn't have a quota system, but where my best friend was warned off me by my geography teacher as "one of those people". Finally, after becoming a naturalised citizen, I'm still asked at almost every party, dinner or event if I think I will go back to my 'home country'. After having had to sit through lectures where professors thought that race was _only_ defined by skin colour and then questioning the very existence of my identity (apparently we made it all up our 5000 + history) fellow students outride the classes asked me to sign petitions to boycott certain stores that were started by jews (more that a 100 years ago).  After marrying someone that was 'the enemy' of my family I was disowned by most of them, and DH was asked by his if this meant he was going to convert.  When his family write Christmas or thank you cards they don't write my name only his.

After all this I hope you can appreciate why I don't think it is a good idea to stereotype and call any people anything other than their real names. Although I do see how convenient it is for the media and that operate through word searches and clickbait captions.

I'm not going to buy /not buy anything based on someones religion, skin colour, last name or nationality. I'm also not going to give my background when doing business or as a customer. 

No one race owns racism. All races are capable of it. There is only one race and that's the human race. While I would never assume someone else's life story or experience. I don't see why anyone should assume mine or because I'm a mod 'take it'. I absolutely agree that racism is ingrained. It's coloured almost every twist and turn of my life. Even now.


----------



## sdkitty

dooneybaby said:


> Shaquana, Shakeesha, Shanika. Take your pick. They are names used when talking about a black girl/woman who stereotypically acts like she's from the hood. And those names have been used for years, and years and years.
> We can also get into names for other ethnicities.
> The use of "Karen" to describe an entitled white girl/woman is fairly new. And it's been used more and more because more of these incidents have been captured on video.
> This is the definition from Wikipedia: *Karen* is a pejorative term used in the United States and other English-speaking countries for a woman perceived to be entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is considered appropriate or necessary. A common stereotype is that of a white woman who uses her privilege to demand her own way at the expense of others.
> 
> As a black woman, I don't think that the use of "Karen" downplays the person's evil intent because pretty much everyone knows what it means. It's a given that a "Karen" is evil.
> Do I use the word "Karen?" No. I use something much stronger that I can't post in this forum.


glad I'm not named Karen


----------



## 880

papertiger said:


> No one race owns racism. All races are capable of it. There is only one race and that's the human race.


paper tiger, your post. . . I have no words to describe the visceral impact. what you wrote is moving, very empowering, and thought provoking.  Thank you for sharing this. hugs


----------



## 880

dooneybaby said:


> the very first time I recall that a number of people who are not of color have not only been willing to discuss racism, but some of them have initiated the conversation.


Dooneybaby, i am a POC (i grew up checking the asian/Pacific Islander box and people asking what I was  or where I was from bc I didn’t look Chinese or Japanese). I’m in my 50’s, and I cannot recall how many times ive faced racism in NYC. One small example, nothing like Papertiger’s experience, is that  I’ve been prevented from getting home (on parade and other days when there are barricades, while police let my friends, and later my DH through, because they are Caucasian. I’m careful always to carry my drivers license as a result. Most of my Caucasian friends dont initiate the conversation; don’t think it’s an issue; and, that makes me sad. Because, IMO, there are very few of us who can claim not to be affected by this issue; as you said, it is ingrained.


----------



## dooneybaby

papertiger said:


> I agree, this debate is happening because it's trending. It's great that people who never spoke before are finding their voice. It's right that people speak if they want to. It's also right that people stay quiet for the same reason, or because they feel they can't contribute in a meaningful way or simply have nothing to say.
> 
> 23 family members were murdered because of their race. They were not called Shaquana, Shakeesha, Shanika _or _Karen, all the women were called 'Sarah' and all the men 'Israel' for convenience and reduced to a number, and hair (for wigs or stuffing sofas) fat (for soap) and skin (lampshades). They weren't just called those names, it was written by law.
> 
> 70 + years ago the same people were told they were too dark, too oriental, too much like the desert and too poor. Now though still to too dark for some, they're also too light, too white, too much like the city and too rich. Not just some, but all. Total stereotypes. In the UK, especially in London we're called 'Beckys' and I'm additionally often called 'Natasha' because of my original nationality (code for prostitute). There is a lot of anti-Eastern-European racism in London, wherever someone's from, the British always think they're from Poland or Romania (perhaps those are the only Eastern-European countries they know?). I won't be told what I am and what I'm not, not by anybody.
> 
> After having being separated from my mother at 3 years old because only one of us was allowed to leave the state, our 'race' written on our passports. After having attended a school where parents had to patrol the playground in case the extremist decided to blow us up as threatened with consistent phone calls to the school office. After catching-up at school in a third language, striving for acceptance I went to a 'very good' school, one of the few UK 'good schools' that didn't have a quota system, but where my best friend was warned off me by my geography teacher as "one of those people". Finally, after becoming a naturalised citizen, I'm still asked at almost every party, dinner or event if I think I will go back to my 'home country'. After having had to sit through lectures where professors thought that race was _only_ defined by skin colour and then questioning the very existence of my identity (apparently we made it all up our 5000 + history) fellow students outride the classes asked me to sign petitions to boycott certain stores that were started by jews (more that a 100 years ago).  After marrying someone that was 'the enemy' of my family I was disowned by most of them, and DH was asked by his if this meant he was going to convert.  When his family write Christmas or thank you cards they don't write my name only his.
> 
> After all this I hope you can appreciate why I don't think it is a good idea to stereotype and call any people anything other than their real names. Although I do see how convenient it is for the media and that operate through word searches and clickbait captions.
> 
> I'm not going to buy /not buy anything based on someones religion, skin colour, last name or nationality. I'm also not going to give my background when doing business or as a customer.
> 
> No one race owns racism. All races are capable of it. There is only one race and that's the human race. While I would never assume someone else's life story or experience. I don't see why anyone should assume mine or because I'm a mod 'take it'. I absolutely agree that racism is ingrained. It's coloured almost every twist and turn of my life. Even now.


You're confusing racism with prejudice. Anyone can be prejudice, but racism is when power is also involved. 
In the United States, white people are the only group to have established and kept power, and it was achieved through oppressing others. Even when some black people became prosperous and owned land after slavery, there were concerted efforts to take that land away, either through legislation or through violence. 
The massacre in Tulsa, Oklahoma - also known as the Black Wall Street - happened because white Americans didn't want blacks to prosper. As one white attacker rampaged through a black family's home, he even commented, "They have a piano. I don't even have a piano."  
And what do you think colonization is? It's nothing but pure racism. White people invading non-white cultures because they thought they were superior. (Sorry folks, but let's tell it like it is.)
So no, not every race, as a whole, owns racism. They just don't have that kind of power. There are individual examples of such racism, but as an entire people - no.


----------



## dooneybaby

880 said:


> Dooneybaby, i am a POC (i grew up checking the asian/Pacific Islander box and people asking what I was  or where I was from bc I didn’t look Chinese or Japanese). I’m in my 50’s, and I cannot recall how many times ive faced racism in NYC. One small example, nothing like Papertiger’s experience, is that  I’ve been prevented from getting home (on parade and other days when there are barricades, while police let my friends, and later my DH through, because they are Caucasian. I’m careful always to carry my drivers license as a result. Most of my Caucasian friends dont initiate the conversation; don’t think it’s an issue; and, that makes me sad. Because, IMO, there are very few of us who can claim not to be affected by this issue; as you said, it is ingrained.


And that's the experience of many people of color. But I think that black Americans have a unique experience, being that many of our ancestors were forcibly brought to this country way before European immigrants were here.
We first were treated as property, not human. And it's been a constant fight throughout generations to be seen as human, even today.
I've even witnessed immigrants coming to this country and looking down their noses at black people. The woman who called police on a black birdwatcher in New York's Central Park was not even born in the U.S. And neither was a woman (from Ukraine) who threatened to call police on a black woman because she was sitting in a park in New York and the white woman felt she didn't belong. Where does this audacity come from? Is it learned through observation?
I grew up in an all-white state in an all-white town in New England. For the first several years of grade school, I was called the N-word daily. Kids would throw rocks at me and at my mom's car as she drove us to school, and sometimes I was even spat on. Image a 7 year old kid looking down at her shoulder and seeing a wad of spit.


----------



## dooneybaby

MCF said:


> Thank you for bringing this up. It's another thing, as an outsider (white/American), I find confusing and didn't know could be disrespectful. Growing up in America, I thought Asian just meant people who had different shaped eyes/eyelids than Westerners i.e. White people did. Obviously this is painfully wrong but I never gave it much thought. I never looked at a map and looked at Asia and what countries are in Asia. When I married a Brit and moved to the UK for several years I kept hearing people being referred to as Asian. When I would meet the said person they would be of Indian decent. I didn't get it. I thought they weren't Asian but Indian. My husband simply said "India is in Asia. They could be called Asian." (I know that someone from India might take offense to being called Asian or vise versa but I will lump that into personal identity right now to kinda simplify things.) That's when I started to really look at maps. I had a discussion with my dad and husband about this. My dad worked in Kazakstan for several years and I always referred to it as Russia (which was wrong). Dad said it was in Asia as was Russia. Blew my mind again. Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, all in Asia. It was like my brain couldn't remember it because I was so set on what I thought an Asian person would look like.
> 
> BTW being married to someone from a different country has really opened up my eyes, and his, to what could be discriminatory or offensive. It's pretty interesting.


Except for Istanbul, which is in Europe and Asia. 
Yeah, it's amazing how many Americans label people. As a matter of fact, Americans are actually North American, as South America is also part of the Americas.
Oh the arrogance of it all. LOL.


----------



## dooneybaby

I will say that I'm enjoying this discussion about race and culture. I've always enjoyed traveling the world, immersing myself in various cultures and religions. It's one of the greatest gifts I've given myself, and I think it can only make a person richer.


----------



## papertiger

dooneybaby said:


> You're confusing racism with prejudice.



I'm not confused. 

I consider the recorded systematic victimisation, murder, dispersal, enslavement, marginalisation, ghettoisation and the constant violations and attacks on identity of any single race over thousands of years as racism.


----------



## tulipfield

i*bella said:


> Yes, I'm aware that Asians aren't a homogenous group. I'm of Asian descent. Taiwan has a lot of Japanese influences, so it's not surprising that a Taiwanese-American woman would be interested in Japan and Japanese skincare. It's less icky to me than if a non-POC was interested in Japanese skincare.



It's a complex issue and maybe this is too much in the weeds, but to add to what you're saying, Taiwan was a Japanese colony.  From that perspective, keeping the history of power dynamics in mind, I don't really find it problematic that a Taiwanese or Taiwanese-American would use Japanese culture as an inspiration for their business.  Now if the situation were the reverse, it might be an issue.

Also didn't know Tatcha had been bought out by Unilever--definitely feels less fancy now.  =(


----------



## dooneybaby

papertiger said:


> I'm not confused.
> 
> I consider the recorded systematic victimisation, murder, dispersal, enslavement, marginalisation, ghettoisation and the constant violations and attacks on identity of any single race over thousands of years as racism.


And in recent history (let's say starting with the 18th century), who have been the greatest perpetrators, when we're talking about one race or culture oppressing another?


----------



## Clearblueskies

dooneybaby said:


> And in recent history (let's say starting with the 18th century), who have been the greatest perpetrators, when we're talking about one race or culture oppressing another?


In most recent history (the 20th century) it would be Hitlers Germany, Mussolini’s Italy, Japan, Russia, China, Burma - take your pick. And let’s not forget the indigenous peoples in many countries or what’s happening in Syria and Yemen today. But that’s not who you’re targeting is it.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Clearblueskies

papertiger said:


> I'm not confused.
> 
> I consider the recorded systematic victimisation, murder, dispersal, enslavement, marginalisation, ghettoisation and the constant violations and attacks on identity of any single race over thousands of years as racism.


Much talk here about the importance of not discounting anyone’s personal experience of racism, and yet that’s what’s just happened here to you.  I’m so sad about it.


----------



## doni

880 said:


> In 2018 Indra Nooyi, the chief executive of the Doritos parent company, PepsiCo, told Freakonomics Radio that the company was considering a range of female-centric snacks. Women “don’t like to crunch [Doritos] too loudly in public”, Nooyi explained. “And they don’t lick their fingers generously.”


She has obviously never met my daughter


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

In the Jewish community there is disagreement about whether modern antisemitism can or should be classified as racism, and even how to categorize Judaism. 

What I do know is there are no winners in the oppression olympics.


----------



## dooneybaby

Clearblueskies said:


> Much talk here about the importance of not discounting anyone’s personal experience of racism, and yet that’s what’s just happened here to you.  I’m so sad about it.


Nothing I have said discounts anyone's experience of racism. It just gets tiring when a black person talks about their experience with racism and the response from many non-blacks is usually, "Well they're doing it in (insert country/culture) too." That's why things never change.
When black Americans complain about police brutality, the response from some non-black Americans is, "Well, look at how blacks kill each other."
There's rarely a sense of accountability because the buck is always being passed.
Yes, the black experience IS different because black people are least likely to be able to blend in to whiteness.
Do you know how many Syrians I know who live in the U.S. and after just one generation, they call themselves white Americans?
You're not usually treated based on who you are, but what you look like. And if not everyone here understands that, then I'm sorry.


----------



## dooneybaby

We have to remember that assimilation in the U.S. is not the same as assimilation in European countries or even Canada. I'm discussing assimilation and racism in the United States. This is my experience.









						Why can’t African-Americans be as successful as immigrants?
					

Pitt professor Larry E. Davis describes the very different ways that white immigrants and African-Americans experience this country




					www.post-gazette.com


----------



## dooneybaby

Clearblueskies said:


> In most recent history (the 20th century) it would be Hitlers Germany, Mussolini’s Italy, Japan, Russia, China, Burma - take your pick. And let’s not forget the indigenous peoples in many countries or what’s happening in Syria and Yemen today. But that’s not who you’re targeting is it.


[/QUOTE]
Well, if that's the case, you can throw in the Hutus and the Tutsis as well. I'm not talking about internal strife. I'm talking about one race trying to oppress another because they think they're superior.


----------



## Clearblueskies

Well, if that's the case, you can throw in the Hutus and the Tutsis as well. I'm not talking about internal strife. I'm talking about one race trying to oppress another because they think they're superior.
[/QUOTE]
So am I - race doesn’t necessarily follow modern borders.


----------



## snibor

dooneybaby said:


> Nothing I have said discounts anyone's experience of racism. It just gets tiring when a black person talks about their experience with racism and the response from many non-blacks is usually, "Well they're doing it in (insert country/culture) too." That's why things never change.
> When black Americans complain about police brutality, the response from some non-black Americans is, "Well, look at how blacks kill each other."
> There's rarely a sense of accountability because the buck is always being passed.
> Yes, the black experience IS different because black people are least likely to be able to blend in to whiteness.
> Do you know how many Syrians I know who live in the U.S. and after just one generation, they call themselves white Americans?
> You're not usually treated based on who you are, but what you look like. And if not everyone here understands that, then I'm sorry.


That’s not what I read.  I was horribly offended by your comments. It was offensive to me and apparently offensive to others.  And yet you still defend it after others say they have been hurt.    One of your comments I hope I mis-understood.  I’d like to think that I did and that you are not in fact a bigot and a loving, kind person.  I wish you peace.


----------



## Notorious Pink

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> In the Jewish community there is disagreement about whether modern antisemitism can or should be classified as racism, and even how to categorize Judaism.



If there is any such disagreement, it’s within a very small subset of the Jewish community.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Notorious Pink said:


> If there is any such disagreement, it’s within a very small subset of the Jewish community.



Not in my experience but that’s part of what I love about Judaism, we have a long history of discussion and debate and can agree to disagree! I don’t want to go off topic in this thread but if you’re interested I can pm you some links later today of Jewish leaders and scholars wrestling with how to classify and combat the current rise in antisemitism.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Talking about racism is hard. Trying to have that conversation in writing is even harder.

I am sorry people are feeling offended and hurt, I don't think that was the intention of most of the posters.

There is much overlap between antisemitism and racism and I wish we could all be allies and support each other in fighting any and all discrimination and hatred.

Maybe we need two separate threads because I think part of the problem is bringing up other groups may feel a little "All Lives Matter" to POC who have expressed this is the first time the forum seems to be even acknowledging the microaggressions (or worse) they have experienced here.


----------



## BittyMonkey

IMHO, as someone who is Jewish (although struggling with faith), I have a problem hijacking a thread about racism with 'what about Jews?' 

You can't identify a Jewish person by looking at their skin color, and because many of us are/look white we pass and aren't likely to get pulled over and brutalized for no reason in the US. Ethiopian Jewish immigrants to Israel have been facing racism. Let's clean up our own backyard first, shall we? I personally think that any Jewish scholar's time is better spent finding ways to heal distrust between the Black community and the Jewish community and come together with the goal of eliminating hate and racism rather than debating whether Judaism is a race. 

I understand many of us have experienced violent anti-semitism, and maybe we should have a different thread, but I think we should return to the topic at hand.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

dooneybaby said:


> You're confusing racism with prejudice. Anyone can be prejudice, but racism is when power is also involved.
> In the United States, white people are the only group to have established and kept power, and it was achieved through oppressing others. Even when some black people became prosperous and owned land after slavery, there were concerted efforts to take that land away, either through legislation or through violence.
> The massacre in Tulsa, Oklahoma - also known as the Black Wall Street - happened because white Americans didn't want blacks to prosper. As one white attacker rampaged through a black family's home, he even commented, "They have a piano. I don't even have a piano."
> And what do you think colonization is? It's nothing but pure racism. White people invading non-white cultures because they thought they were superior. (Sorry folks, but let's tell it like it is.)
> So no, not every race, as a whole, owns racism. They just don't have that kind of power. There are individual examples of such racism, but as an entire people - no.


Thank you so much for saying this! I always roll my eyes when white people accuse other races of being racist because it’s just not possible. Black people don’t have the systematic power to oppress anyone. Can other “minorities” be prejudice or say stereotypical things? Sure, but they cannot weaponized a system built against them.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

dooneybaby said:


> Nothing I have said discounts anyone's experience of racism. It just gets tiring when a black person talks about their experience with racism and the response from many non-blacks is usually, "Well they're doing it in (insert country/culture) too." That's why things never change.
> When black Americans complain about police brutality, the response from some non-black Americans is, "Well, look at how blacks kill each other."
> There's rarely a sense of accountability because the buck is always being passed.
> Yes, the black experience IS different because black people are least likely to be able to blend in to whiteness.
> Do you know how many Syrians I know who live in the U.S. and after just one generation, they call themselves white Americans?
> You're not usually treated based on who you are, but what you look like. And if not everyone here understands that, then I'm sorry.


Again, I agree. It has been proven that most individuals will have disagreements and commit crimes against those they live around or encounter the most. Since most races tend to live amongst their own, crimes against the same race will happen no matter the race. Statistics prove this and show that black people do not kill each other in that much of a higher rate than whites. Hell, Chicago is not even the most dangerous city but many will have you think that. Alaska is crime central but it is hardly talked about. Further more, if white people didn’t kill each other at an alarming rate we wouldn’t have shows like Dateline and 20/20 nor whole networks like Investigation Discovery and HLN. The majority of those shows showcase white on white crime.


----------



## tuowei

dooneybaby said:


> You're confusing racism with prejudice. Anyone can be prejudice, but racism is when power is also involved.
> In the United States, white people are the only group to have established and kept power, and it was achieved through oppressing others. Even when some black people became prosperous and owned land after slavery, there were concerted efforts to take that land away, either through legislation or through violence.
> The massacre in Tulsa, Oklahoma - also known as the Black Wall Street - happened because white Americans didn't want blacks to prosper. As one white attacker rampaged through a black family's home, he even commented, "They have a piano. I don't even have a piano."
> And what do you think colonization is? It's nothing but pure racism. White people invading non-white cultures because they thought they were superior. (Sorry folks, but let's tell it like it is.)
> So no, not every race, as a whole, owns racism. They just don't have that kind of power. There are individual examples of such racism, but as an entire people - no.



I think some of the disagreement might come from different understandings of the definition of the word racism. An excellent article by Amanda's colleague John McWhorter at the Atlantic shines a light on how the dictionary definition of racism has changed. It's worth a read: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...e/613324/?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share
Snipping for brevity:
"1.0 definition of _racism ..._ is, what used to be referred to as _prejudiced_: “a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.
... Since the 1960s, however, _racism_ has often been used in terms such as _societal racism_ and _institutional racism_, referring to structures of society that disadvantage people of subordinated races because of the collective effect of bigoted attitudes. For example, one might say that societal racism is to blame for neighborhoods with decaying infrastructure, because white flight lowered tax revenues... 2.0 definition ... _racism_ can mean “a political or social system founded on racism.
(The definition of racism has) morphed even beyond the 2.0 definition to refer to “social and institutional power.” Here, the focus of the definition is less on attitudes than results: The societal disparities between white people and others are themselves referred to as racism, as a kind of shorthand for the attitudinal racism _creating_ the disparities. This 3.0 definition of the word is now quite influential, such that the best-selling author and _Atlantic_ contributor Ibram X. Kendi calls all race-based societal disparities racism that ought to be battled. It is a usage of _racism_ that one often acquires in college classes in the social sciences, and that is fundamental to modern discussions of race and racism.”


----------



## rutabaga

tulipfield said:


> It's a complex issue and maybe this is too much in the weeds, but to add to what you're saying, Taiwan was a Japanese colony.  From that perspective, keeping the history of power dynamics in mind, I don't really find it problematic that a Taiwanese or Taiwanese-American would use Japanese culture as an inspiration for their business.  Now if the situation were the reverse, it might be an issue.
> 
> Also didn't know Tatcha had been bought out by Unilever--definitely feels less fancy now.  =(



Yes, Taiwan was colonized by the Japanese, Portuguese, Dutch... my grandmother grew up in Taiwan during the Japanese occupation and speaks fluent Japanese.

Yeah I was surprised when I saw Tatcha sold at Costco and QVC. But good for her, the deal was rumored to be for $500M!


----------



## papertiger

BittyMonkey said:


> IMHO, as someone who is Jewish (although struggling with faith), I have a problem hijacking a thread about racism with 'what about Jews?'
> 
> You can't identify a Jewish person by looking at their skin color, and because many of us are/look white we pass and aren't likely to get pulled over and brutalized for no reason in the US. Ethiopian Jewish immigrants to Israel have been facing racism. Let's clean up our own backyard first, shall we? I personally think that any Jewish scholar's time is better spent finding ways to heal distrust between the Black community and the Jewish community and come together with the goal of eliminating hate and racism rather than debating whether Judaism is a race.
> 
> I understand many of us have experienced violent anti-semitism, and maybe we should have a different thread, but I think we should return to the topic at hand.



This thread is about racism and classism. That's the title of the thread. 

Just because you can 'pass' doesn't mean you're white (Nuremberg Laws 1935) 

I would certainly be against 2 threads on the subject of racism, just like I would be against having 2 doors to the same building. One round the back, and one leading to a ghetto.


----------



## Christina48576

papertiger said:


> This thread is about racism and classism. That's the title of the thread.
> 
> Just because you can 'pass' doesn't mean you're white (Nuremberg Laws 1935)
> 
> I would certainly be against 2 threads on the subject of racism, just like I would be against having 2 doors to the same building. One round the back, and one leading to a ghetto.



I so sympathize with the horrible prejudice you and your family have faced.  I too am white-passing and that comes with enormous privilege. I think that is the point the previous poster was making. We absolutely can never forget the horrific genocides of the past, the legacies they have created, and the continued prejudice. But this article in particular was about the chasm between white and black experiences. I think there is absolutely a need for the fashion industry to address its concealing of anti-semitism in its ranks (looking at you Chanel). I just don't think this particular article tees up that discussion.

This moment and movement are about listening, specifically, to black voices. I don't have to worry about being followed in every store I walk into. I don't have to be afraid to call the police if something happens or to be pulled over (which rarely happens to me, probably because I'm white, not because I'm the most amazing driver).



OriginalBalenciaga said:


> What I do know is there are no winners in the oppression olympics.



Exactly, it isn't a competition.


----------



## BittyMonkey

papertiger said:


> This thread is about racism and classism. That's the title of the thread.
> 
> Just because you can 'pass' doesn't mean you're white (Nuremberg Laws 1935)
> 
> I would certainly be against 2 threads on the subject of racism, just like I would be against having 2 doors to the same building. One round the back, and one leading to a ghetto.


You know, many years ago I read an article in the New Yorker about how contemporary Judaism is now all about the Holocaust and has lost the essence that has sustained us spiritually. I would add that that trauma, generations later, is leading us to show less empathy to other oppressed groups. We are a traumatized people and are acting like it. Because of our experience, we should be more sensitive to the struggle of others and do our best to lift up everyone.

This is all I am prepared to say. I don't think this issue is either racism or classism, and it isn't ghettoizing to let other people lead the discussion.


----------



## BittyMonkey

All that said, Coco Chanel can eat a bag of d!cks.


----------



## snibor

BittyMonkey said:


> IMHO, as someone who is Jewish (although struggling with faith), I have a problem hijacking a thread about racism with 'what about Jews?'
> 
> You can't identify a Jewish person by looking at their skin color, and because many of us are/look white we pass and aren't likely to get pulled over and brutalized for no reason in the US. Ethiopian Jewish immigrants to Israel have been facing racism. Let's clean up our own backyard first, shall we? I personally think that any Jewish scholar's time is better spent finding ways to heal distrust between the Black community and the Jewish community and come together with the goal of eliminating hate and racism rather than debating whether Judaism is a race.
> 
> I understand many of us have experienced violent anti-semitism, and maybe we should have a different thread, but I think we should return to the topic at hand.


Keep in mind many Jews are not white.  (Not that it should matter either way) This is a myth that has been perpetrated by many groups who seek to oppress and discriminate against Jews and classify them as “white”.  Most of the groups doing it haven’t a clue about Jewish history and the oppression faced throughout history and practically every country.   And I’m not just talking about the Holocaust.    Majority of the Jewish population in the Middle East are Mizrahi Jews, of North African/Middle Eastern descent. It just so happens that the Us has more of Ashkenazi descent.   Regardless, I was offended by comments made in this thread.   Frankly I’m appalled that some don’t seem to care that some of our fellow members were offended.  But carry on.


----------



## snibor

And with this, I shall leave this thread.


----------



## dooneybaby

snibor said:


> That’s not what I read.  I was horribly offended by your comments. It was offensive to me and apparently offensive to others.  And yet you still defend it after others say they have been hurt.    One of your comments I hope I mis-understood.  I’d like to think that I did and that you are not in fact a bigot and a loving, kind person.  I wish you peace.


I in no way mean to offend anyone. If anyone understands the pain that hate brings, then I do. And if I've offended anyone, then I apologize. 
Everyone wants to be heard, but racism against black people in America has gone on for hundreds and hundreds of years, and you cannot compare the black experience in America to the experience of any other race of person in America.
You also have to understand the mindset throughout the world. No one wants dark skin. Dark skin is seen as ugly. Even in Nigeria there are women who are lightening their skin because they've been brainwashed to believe that dark skin is ugly.
Allow a woman in India to tell you about the unattractiveness of darker skin. Women in India are lightening their skin as well. 
There are issues that you don't see unless you experience them. There are issues within the black community or the Indian community or any other community that you don't understand unless you've either experienced the or someone in that community shares those issues with you. 
To discuss the nitty gritty of race is uncomfortable. And if the truth is to be talked about, then yes, some people will be offended. But it's time that we all talk about how we see each other so that these stereotypes and walls can come down.
If I tell you that I was treated a certain way by white people while growing up, then I can't help that those words may be offensive to some white people. That doesn't mean that because someone reading this is white that they hold the same beliefs and values. And it certainly doesn't mean that I dislike white people. I judge people by their actions, not their skin color.
But in order to discuss race, you have to understand the pain that racism and bigotry causes. And if you don't want to hear it, then we're not going to get anywhere.


----------



## BittyMonkey

snibor said:


> Keep in mind many Jews are not white.  (Not that it should matter either way) This is a myth that has been perpetrated by many groups who seek to oppress and discriminate against Jews and classify them as “white”.  Most of the groups doing it haven’t a clue about Jewish history and the oppression faced throughout history and practically every country.   And I’m not just talking about the Holocaust.    Majority of the Jewish population in the Middle East are Mizrahi Jews, of North African/Middle Eastern descent. It just so happens that the Us has more of Ashkenazi descent.   Regardless, I was offended by comments made in this thread.   Frankly I’m appalled that some don’t seem to care that some of our fellow members were offended.  But carry on.


I am confused as I said this exactly - Judaism isn't a race and I specifically mentioned African Jews. In the US, pertaining to BLM, most Jews are of Ashkenazi descent and their skin color provides them _some_ level of privilege. That doesn't mean they are not discriminated against. That is not this discussion.


----------



## BittyMonkey

For those who are interested in participating, I started this thread.


----------



## dooneybaby

snibor said:


> Keep in mind many Jews are not white.  (Not that it should matter either way) This is a myth that has been perpetrated by many groups who seek to oppress and discriminate against Jews and classify them as “white”.  Most of the groups doing it haven’t a clue about Jewish history and the oppression faced throughout history and practically every country.   And I’m not just talking about the Holocaust.    Majority of the Jewish population in the Middle East are Mizrahi Jews, of North African/Middle Eastern descent. It just so happens that the Us has more of Ashkenazi descent.   Regardless, I was offended by comments made in this thread.   Frankly I’m appalled that some don’t seem to care that some of our fellow members were offended.  But carry on.


We cannot discuss racism on an international level. It's just not effective. My focus was racism in America because that's been my experience. And in America, you're treated the way you look.

I in no way meant to be offensive when discussing Jews. I'm a Christian, and I've always considered Jews God's chosen people. And you can't study Christianity without studying the Jewish people. 
The pain and the hate the Jewish people have endured since the beginning of time and continue to endure is also a pain that I feel. And blacks and Jews should have a special bond because we are both a persecuted people. And whether you believe it or not, Christians, Jews and Muslims have more in common than you think, and we should all love and respect one another. 

One of my personal pilgrimages over the years has been to travel to where the 12 lost tribes of Israel are thought to be. I've traveled to Ethiopia, where the Falasha (the tribe of Dan) were before most of them relocated to Israel. I've also traveled to Bukhara, Uzbekistan, where it's believed that the Bukharan Jews are from the tribes of Naphtali and Issachar, and to Tunisia, where another lost tribe is believed to have gone to Djerba. 
I was supposed to travel to Israel in March, but the pandemic had just blown up and Israel and the West Bank had shut down. That trip has been rescheduled for March 2021.

So I am not deaf to the persecution of the Jewish people. Not at all.


----------



## dooneybaby

BittyMonkey said:


> IMHO, as someone who is Jewish (although struggling with faith), I have a problem hijacking a thread about racism with 'what about Jews?'
> 
> You can't identify a Jewish person by looking at their skin color, and because many of us are/look white we pass and aren't likely to get pulled over and brutalized for no reason in the US. Ethiopian Jewish immigrants to Israel have been facing racism. Let's clean up our own backyard first, shall we? I personally think that any Jewish scholar's time is better spent finding ways to heal distrust between the Black community and the Jewish community and come together with the goal of eliminating hate and racism rather than debating whether Judaism is a race.
> 
> I understand many of us have experienced violent anti-semitism, and maybe we should have a different thread, but I think we should return to the topic at hand.


That was the point I was trying to make, but I guess some folks took it the wrong way. I was only discussing my experience with racism in the United States, and how people are treated based on how they look. Now if an employer sees a particular ethnic name on a resume, then that's a different story.


----------



## dooneybaby

Christina48576 said:


> I so sympathize with the horrible prejudice you and your family have faced.  I too am white-passing and that comes with enormous privilege. I think that is the point the previous poster was making. We absolutely can never forget the horrific genocides of the past, the legacies they have created, and the continued prejudice. But this article in particular was about the chasm between white and black experiences. I think there is absolutely a need for the fashion industry to address its concealing of anti-semitism in its ranks (looking at you Chanel). I just don't think this particular article tees up that discussion.
> 
> This moment and movement are about listening, specifically, to black voices. I don't have to worry about being followed in every store I walk into. I don't have to be afraid to call the police if something happens or to be pulled over (which rarely happens to me, probably because I'm white, not because I'm the most amazing driver).
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, it isn't a competition.


Thank you for recognizing this.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

snibor said:


> And with this, I shall leave this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 4795259



I am very sorry you are hurt, I am Jewish and I don't think anyone was leaving Jews alone or minimizing antisemitism. It seems you just joined the thread recently so perhaps you didn't realize we'd been talking about the importance of being proactive allies for POC.

And this is not a zero sum game. I can acknowledge the pain of someone else without diminishing my own.



BittyMonkey said:


> For those who are interested in participating, I started this thread.



Thank you!


----------



## papertiger

I would also like to apologise for any perceived lack of empathy towards anyone, that was never my intention. 

If we cannot learn from history and others' personal stories then there is little point in any discussion. Personally, I'm more traumatised by own experiences rather than historically. Then again, perhaps the history is 'there' because many people are not. I cannot be sure, but after generations, surely the history of Black slavery has been equally traumatising. 

I've been horrified by some of the stories of racial hatred recanted on this thread and in PMs, some, by those I've known for many years. I have felt privileged to hear. I'm also delighted that some fellow Jews feel safe and secure in their lives and neighbourhoods, long may that last.

Obviously, my experiences will not be the same as someone born in the US of any background or any other place I haven't lived. 

@dooneybaby, I think we have more in common than differences, and that's not to diminish anything you, your family, or any black person has experienced. It was hard for me to write about my experiences, as I'm sure it was you, yours. I thank you for your fight against racial injustice. We will probably fight it in different ways, but from what you have said, to the same end.


----------



## dooneybaby

papertiger said:


> I would also like to apologise for any perceived lack of empathy towards anyone, that was never my intention.
> 
> If we cannot learn from history and others' personal stories then there is little point in any discussion. Personally, I'm more traumatised by own experiences rather than historically. Then again, perhaps the history is 'there' because many people are not. I cannot be sure, but after generations, surely the history of Black slavery has been equally traumatising.
> 
> I've been horrified by some of the stories of racial hatred recanted on this thread and in PMs, some, by those I've known for many years. I have felt privileged to hear. I'm also delighted that some fellow Jews feel safe and secure in their lives and neighbourhoods, long may that last.
> 
> Obviously, my experiences will not be the same as someone born in the US of any background or any other place I haven't lived.
> 
> @dooneybaby, I think we have more in common than differences, and that's not to diminish anything you, your family, or any black person has experienced. It was hard for me to write about my experiences, as I'm sure it was you, yours. I thank you for your fight against racial injustice. We will probably fight it in different ways, but from what you have said, to the same end.


Just remember, we are all God's people. 
Peace my sister.


----------



## redney

Thank you for this discussion. I am appreciative for it here, and for the admins who are opening their eyes to racism on the PF. In some cases it's blatant, in others veiled. But I'm glad it's in now in the open and hopefully more swiftly addressed with severe actions.

On the fashion piece that started this thread, it's time too to discuss it and for the fashion industry to make real changes. One simple example: "nude" shoes. "Nude" for whom? Time to toss that modifier out once and for all!


----------



## GeorgiaGirl67

GhstDreamer said:


> In England, Asians don't refer to people of Northeast Asian descent like Chinese, Japanese and Korean. Asians refer to people who are from India, Pakistan and I am assuming other parts of Southeast Asia. I believe it is still acceptable in England to refer Northeast Asians as Orientals. Whereas here in North America, it is considered derogatory. I personally don't have an issue with it though I do understand the colonial racial context behind referring to someone as Oriental.
> 
> Living in North America, I usually use the word Asian but that itself raises an issue in North America. Not all Asian ethnic groups face the same or different hurdles or discrimination historically and presently. There are a few websites and books about the Chinese exclusion act in Canada and the US (*****'s racist rhetoric is very reminiscent of the early 1900's racist attitudes towards the Chinese), the use of Chinese and Indigenous workers to build railroads because a black or a white worker's life was literally worth 3x more, the killing of Vincent Chin - a racially motivated killing in which the murderers mistaken Vincent as Japanese and got away with just probation and $3000 fine. The court symbolically issued $3k license to kill Asians. There was a really good documentary made about this. Hate crimes against Asians are rarely considered as hate crimes by police officers and the law even nowadays. I think BLM helped raised issues surrounding racism and xenophobia against all POC and ethnic minorities that those stories are now being shared as well. I hate being political on a non-political site but we have to thank people who are involved in BLM for being vocal, being active and committed to making positive change happen. I can name numerous times in which I was racially harassed: one time I was told to get out of my car so they can hang me, I have been refused service at a pub and a cafe, I was spat on, told to get out of the country, name-calling is a big one, being told my English is excellent, etc.




It's not ok in the U.K. to refer to Asians as Orientals. I learned the hard way years ago when I inadvertently used the term on the Duran Duran fan club forum. I was QUICKLY scolded and corrected.


----------



## mrsinsyder

dooneybaby said:


> You're confusing racism with prejudice. Anyone can be prejudice, but racism is when power is also involved.
> In the United States, white people are the only group to have established and kept power, and it was achieved through oppressing others. Even when some black people became prosperous and owned land after slavery, there were concerted efforts to take that land away, either through legislation or through violence.
> The massacre in Tulsa, Oklahoma - also known as the Black Wall Street - happened because white Americans didn't want blacks to prosper. As one white attacker rampaged through a black family's home, he even commented, "They have a piano. I don't even have a piano."
> And what do you think colonization is? It's nothing but pure racism. White people invading non-white cultures because they thought they were superior. (Sorry folks, but let's tell it like it is.)
> So no, not every race, as a whole, owns racism. They just don't have that kind of power. There are individual examples of such racism, but as an entire people - no.


I was going to post exactly this and I’m glad you did so.


----------



## mrsinsyder

GeorgiaGirl67 said:


> It's not ok in the U.K. to refer to Asians as Orientals. I learned the hard way years ago when I inadvertently used the term on the Duran Duran fan club forum. I was QUICKLY scolded and corrected.


It’s definitely not ok in the U.S. either.


----------



## 880

Winter’sJoy said:


> Thank you so much for saying this! I always roll my eyes when white people accuse other races of being racist because it’s just not possible. Black people don’t have the systematic power to oppress anyone. Can other “minorities” be prejudice or say stereotypical things? Sure, but they cannot weaponized a system built against them.


Dooneybaby, wintersjoy, I‘m not Caucasian, I’m filipino (And Jewish) and I think i was actually confusing racism and prejudice. im Learning as we go along And appreciate reading all of these posts.


----------



## 880

dooneybaby said:


> and I've always considered Jews God's chosen people. And you can't study Christianity without studying the Jewish people.
> The pain and the hate the Jewish people have endured since the beginning of time and continue to endure is also a pain that I feel. And blacks and Jews should have a special bond because we are both a persecuted people. And whether you believe it or not, Christians, Jews and Muslims have more in common than you think, and we should all love and respect one another.


I agree with this, except reconstructionist judaism, it’s least how I was taught, doesn’t consider Jews as the chosen people.   Christians, Jews and Muslims are all people of the book In terms of religion.  If anyone is interested, i seem to recall  Karen Armstrong’s book, A history of God focused on the similarities


----------



## Winter’sJoy

880 said:


> Dooneybaby, wintersjoy, I‘m not Caucasian, I’m filipino (And Jewish) and I think i was actually confusing racism and prejudice. im Learning as we go along And appreciate reading all of these posts.


Don’t worry I think the meaning of the two got twisted and misconstrued along the way and many people started using them interchangeably not realizing there’s a reason why they are two different words with different meanings.


----------



## chicinthecity777

GhstDreamer said:


> In England, Asians don't refer to people of Northeast Asian descent like Chinese, Japanese and Korean. Asians refer to people who are from India, Pakistan and I am assuming other parts of Southeast Asia. I believe it is still acceptable in England to refer Northeast Asians as Orientals.


This! The only small correction is this is in the whole of UK, not just England.


----------



## chicinthecity777

GeorgiaGirl67 said:


> It's not ok in the U.K. to refer to Asians as Orientals. I learned the hard way years ago when I inadvertently used the term on the Duran Duran fan club forum. I was QUICKLY scolded and corrected.


Interesting. That's not my and a lot of my friends' experience at all!


----------



## dooneybaby

880 said:


> I agree with this, except reconstructionist judaism, it’s least how I was taught, doesn’t consider Jews as the chosen people.   Christians, Jews and Muslims are all people of the book In terms of religion.  If anyone is interested, i seem to recall  Karen Armstrong’s book, A history of God focused on the similarities


I am Christian and I base my beliefs on the Bible, which I consider God's word.
Deuteronomy 7:6 -  “For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.”  

You are welcome to believe what you choose to.


----------



## 880

papertiger said:


> If we cannot learn from history and others' personal stories then there is little point in any discussion. Personally, I'm more traumatised by own experiences rather than historically. Then again, perhaps the history is 'there' because many people are not. I cannot be sure, but after generations, surely the history of Black slavery has been equally traumatising.


I was very moved by your original personal narration. And reading it put my own much smaller instances in perspective. Reading the entire thread, made me start to understand that many of us. . . we are essentially so more privileged regardless of our own personal experiences rather than historical supressive racism over an entire group. I knew it, but reading these posts in their entirety made me understand in a more visceral level (although I obviously cannot truly understand if I am not not part of that oppressed group). Sometimes when my caucasian friends say, well it’s unfair that x opportunity is taken away from me bc of affirmative action, I’m not sure anything can persuade them to comprehend the level of suppressive racism or the massive level of pain that it must cause a group to see the generation of confederate monuments.

I will say that being brown skinned has caused me to be treated differently by caucasians, asians and African Americans, to one degree or other and I have other issues re being Jewish, that I’ll raise in Bitty monkey’s new thread Fashion and Antisemitism. But there is so much meat in these issues, it could also be a separate sub forum. I guess one silver lining of covid is that  I have the time and inclination to pull my head out of the sand and start to read and learn.

I loved original balenciaga‘s pithy statement above, “And this is not a zero sum game. I can acknowledge the pain of someone else without diminishing my own.”

if more people felt this way, there would be a lot more empathy in this world.

ps I spent some time editing this, and when I looked down I saw Limom’s post re Natashas. And, after getting worked up about systemic racism, prejudice, covid ain’t maskers, etc., when I see limom’s posts and sunshine mamas and sme others on TPF, they make me feel better in their matter of fact, straightforward and  specific queries. (Of course I don’t mean to imply any disrespect to the Natasha issue, just the manner of the query, like hearing someone’s voice might make one feel better)


----------



## limom

So Natasha in England=hooker?


----------



## QuelleFromage

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Maybe we need two separate threads because I think part of the problem is bringing up other groups may feel a little "All Lives Matter" to POC who have expressed this is the first time the forum seems to be even acknowledging the microaggressions (or worse) they have experienced here.


That's exactly how it feels to me. 

I do hope that, now tPF has recognized the issue and been willing to address it, that all forms of bigoted behavior can be called out and will be responded to. I looked back at a few posts I had responded to and/or reported as offensive in past years and they're still there, still with the cluelessness of folks who are used to using racist terms and language because no-one has ever pointed it out nor had a substantive discussion with them. 
Words can really sting here.


----------



## limom

QuelleFromage said:


> That's exactly how it feels to me.
> 
> I do hope that, now tPF has recognized the issue and been willing to address it, that all forms of bigoted behavior can be called out and will be responded to. I looked back at a few posts I had responded to and/or reported as offensive in past years and they're still there, still with the cluelessness of folks who are used to using racist terms and language because no-one has ever pointed it out nor had a substantive discussion with them.
> Words can really sting here.


Some people are not interested in changing. 
It is in the zeitgeist to pretend caring right now, imo.
It is also a smart business decision as well.


----------



## papertiger

limom said:


> So Natasha in England=hooker?


----------



## QuelleFromage

limom said:


> Some people are not interested in changing.
> It is in the zeitgeist to pretend caring right now, imo.
> It is also a smart business decision as well.


Yes, everyone and every brand has their lines down pat. We shall see what kind of change actually happens. My suspicion on this forum is that a certain crowd will continue to scoff when offensive comments are called out. If they didn't care two years ago, they don't just suddenly begin to do so unless a LOT of personal work and growth has happened. I am not holding out a lot of hope, unfortunately. I know Megs and Vlad care but the forum is large and probably largely unchangeable.


----------



## limom

papertiger said:


> View attachment 4796151


One of my very favorite name for women for many reasons.
The thing you learn on the purseforum.
Thank you.


----------



## baghabitz34

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I think the way a person apologizes (or not) speaks volumes about whether it was a mistake. When people show you who they are believe them.


When a person shows you who they are believe them, the first time. - the late, great Dr. Maya Angelou


----------



## limom

baghabitz34 said:


> When a person shows you who they are believe them, the first time. - the late, great Dr. Maya Angelou


This 100%


----------



## mrsinsyder

I just had a post deleted in the Epstein thread because I mentioned *****, but Melania has a style thread? How does that make sense? Can we only discuss him if it's positive? 

As I also pointed out in the thread, 2 pages of comments about Bill ******* were allowed. I don't understand how the forum can ever move forward as inclusive with such bias in moderation.


----------



## Megs

QuelleFromage said:


> Yes, everyone and every brand has their lines down pat. We shall see what kind of change actually happens. My suspicion on this forum is that a certain crowd will continue to scoff when offensive comments are called out. If they didn't care two years ago, they don't just suddenly begin to do so unless a LOT of personal work and growth has happened. I am not holding out a lot of hope, unfortunately. I know Megs and Vlad care but the forum is large and probably largely unchangeable.



The forum is large and because of the size, it makes moderating at times hard in the way that some posts will get missed, or how one moderator will handle one situation isn't how another will handle it. 

As I said, please please always PM me directly if you see something a miss and want me to check it out. How our moderation system works is we get flagged on a report, but we can also mark something as handled (say there was spam deleted, the moderator can delete the spam, ban the poster, and mark it as resolved). This system makes some posts slip thru the cracks for me. 

I promise to check my PMs, check all reports, and handle things in a way that not only follows our TOS but also makes tPF a safe space for all. There will be mistakes, but that's why I'm asking you to reach out to me directly if you need anything ever!


----------



## Swanky

mrsinsyder said:


> I just had a post deleted in the Epstein thread because I mentioned *****, but Melania has a style thread? How does that make sense? Can we only discuss him if it's positive?
> 
> As I also pointed out in the thread, 2 pages of comments about Bill ******* were allowed. I don't understand how the forum can ever move forward as inclusive with such bias in moderation.



As I said in that thread, simply report the political posts.  Prior to Melania having a style thread, Michelle ***** had/has one, they were deemed permissible by the owners so long as they stay clear of politics; we can't "discuss" him or politicians at all, we don't allow that.
The moderation isn't biased, we're a group of people worldwide with very differing political opinions and life experiences.  People on both sides of the proverbial aisle think we're biased against them, we do our best collectively.


----------



## 880

I think this woman expresses some of the points made in this thread in the quote below. The open letter is especially worth reading. Although her profession wasn’t fashion related, the points use makes are universal (also as per QuelleFromage’s point above)

Tyson was one of four black women on a 14-member team when she started work three years ago, watching as they quit or were forced out. Now there are none.
An Open Letter to the Union of Concerned Scientists: On Black Death, Black Silencing, and Black Fugitivity
“They simply baited us in with the language of equity without making significant infrastructural, cultural, and procedural changes to prioritize and accommodate the [people of color or] the actual work of racial equity,” she wrote. “As if anti-racist work were something you could just sprinkle on top.”



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2020/07/22/liberal-progressive-racist-sierra-club-faces-its-white-supremacist-history/?utm_campaign=wp_the_daily_202&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_daily202


----------



## mrsinsyder

Swanky said:


> As I said in that thread, simply report the political posts.  Prior to Melania having a style thread, Michelle ***** had/has one, they were deemed permissible by the owners so long as they stay clear of politics, we can't "discuss" him or politicians at all, we don't allow that.
> The moderation isn't biased, we're a group of people worldwide with very differing political opinions and life experiences.  People on both sides of the proverbial aisle think we're biased against them, we do our best collectively.


It would take me weeks to report every post on this forum that mentions *****. 

When Epstein originally committed suicide, all threads about him were deleted but now it's allowed because there's some flimsy association made to Prince Andrew? @Vlad specifically mentioned the news forum was deleted because it was just too hard to manage. 

I guess it's hard as a poster to see hundreds of mentions of ***** on the thread and then to have your post deleted for saying his name. That doesn't make it very easy to understand what's allowed and what isn't.


----------



## Swanky

We've said repeatedly that we cannot possibly see every post written.  We rely on reported posts to get our attention.  
If you're going to complain about some things, then just report them for us. 
We've removed many mentions of *******, *****, *****, etc. . . 

None of this has anything to do with this thread.  I'm sure if you PM Megs and Vlad for clarification about why Epstein can be discussed now they will explain.



mrsinsyder said:


> It would take me weeks to report every post on this forum that mentions *****.
> 
> When Epstein originally committed suicide, all threads about him were deleted but now it's allowed because there's some flimsy association made to Prince Andrew? @Vlad specifically mentioned the news forum was deleted because it was just too hard to manage.
> 
> I guess it's hard as a poster to see hundreds of mentions of ***** on the thread and then to have your post deleted for saying his name. That doesn't make it very easy to understand what's allowed and what isn't.


----------



## Mimmy

mrsinsyder said:


> I just had a post deleted in the Epstein thread because I mentioned *****, but Melania has a style thread? How does that make sense? Can we only discuss him if it's positive?
> 
> As I also pointed out in the thread, 2 pages of comments about Bill ******* were allowed. I don't understand how the forum can ever move forward as inclusive with such bias in moderation.


Against my better judgement, I looked at the Prince Harry/Meghan Markle thread and pretty quickly found a not so subtle (to me anyway) racist post. I reported the post but don’t plan on returning to the thread. I don’t have the time to keep up with it and reading the posts upsets and angers me. That thread is obviously very popular and moves quickly.

I agree with you that becoming more inclusive is going to be difficult if things remain the same. TPF used to be my guilty pleasure. I am enjoying and am moved by the discussion on this thread as I think it is important. 

I am thinking that I should really only participate on the bag, fashion and gardening threads.

I am also deciding if I should leave TPF entirely if as you mentioned the bias continues. I don’t want to keep reporting things as that really is not in my nature and honestly I don’t have the time. By not speaking up though I feel that I am condoning this continuing narrative and bias.


----------



## Notorious Pink

deleted


----------



## mrsinsyder

Notorious Pink said:


> It’s also hard as a poster and volunteer contributor to see one’s photo posted in a thread as a negative example based solely on one’s appearance.


Who said it was negative? It's an accurate representation of who writes for TPF. If you're embarrassed of that, then that should tell you something.


----------



## Christina48576

Swanky said:


> As I said in that thread, simply report the political posts. Prior to Melania having a style thread, Michelle ***** had/has one, they were deemed permissible by the owners so long as they stay clear of politics; we can't "discuss" him or politicians at all, we don't allow that.



I think this kind of language equates the two women, which is harmful. Melania has and does represent and espouse incredibly racist ideas. When her thread is compared to Michelle *****'s, it feels like saying "there are good people on both sides." I feel, it is complicity to continue to hold up Melania's fashion because, while white people may feel like they can "compartmentalize," POC don't have that privilege.


----------



## Swanky

Christina48576 said:


> I think this kind of language equates the two women, which is harmful. Melania has and does represent and espouse incredibly racist ideas. When her thread is compared to Michelle *****'s, it feels like saying "there are good people on both sides." I feel, it is complicity to continue to hold up Melania's fashion because, while white people may feel like they can "compartmentalize," POC don't have that privilege.



I equated 2 women who are married to a President, whether people like either of them or not, is irrelevant.  In this case, they're simply spouses of politicians and no politics are allowed in either of their threads.  I've never compared them.
Megs and Vlad allowed Michelle's and thus has allowed Melania's.


----------



## Megs

Christina48576 said:


> I think this kind of language equates the two women, which is harmful. Melania has and does represent and espouse incredibly racist ideas. When her thread is compared to Michelle *****'s, it feels like saying "there are good people on both sides." I feel, it is complicity to continue to hold up Melania's fashion because, while white people may feel like they can "compartmentalize," POC don't have that privilege.



The idea behind those threads is to be strictly style threads. Michelle *****'s style thread came first. As I've said many times, we do our best to moderate fairly. That means that if another First Lady style thread is started, it can be allowed as we set precedence that First Lady style threads are allowed as long as they do not discuss politics. 

Bringing them up in the same sentence is not equating them as people or their values or political views, those threads simply exist in the same area of our forum as style threads. If those threads became major problems, filled with political talk even with our intervention to ask for it to stay off, we'd have to remove them.


----------



## Christina48576

Megs said:


> Bringing them up in the same sentence is not equating them as people or their values or political views



Using the Michelle ***** style thread to justify the style thread does equate the two women. And it isn't about political views either, it's about racism. I feel the style thread normalizes the very harmful, and offensive (I'm talking around it but in particular birtherism) things she has said and done. Her beauty or style cannot be untangled from who she really is.



Swanky said:


> I equated 2 women who are married to a President, whether people like either of them or not, is irrelevant



It isn't about whether I like them or not. People can have a million different reasons for liking one politician or whatever. But when someone has fed a wildly racist conspiracy theory, that can never be irrelevant.


----------



## Swanky

Christina48576 said:


> Using the Michelle ***** style thread to justify the style thread does equate the two women. And it isn't about political views either, it's about racism. I feel the style thread normalizes the very harmful, and offensive (I'm talking around it but in particular birtherism) things she has said and done. Her beauty or style cannot be untangled from who she really is.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't about whether I like them or not. People can have a million different reasons for liking one politician or whatever. But when someone has fed a wildly racist conspiracy theory, that can never be irrelevant.



No it doesn’t *IMO*. I respect your opinion.


----------



## mrsinsyder

Also it’s completely laughable that the Melania* thread is considered non political. There are so many posts in there fawning over what a great job they’re doing, how class has returned to the White House etc.


----------



## Megs

mrsinsyder said:


> It would take me weeks to report every post on this forum that mentions *****.
> 
> When Epstein originally committed suicide, all threads about him were deleted but now it's allowed because there's some flimsy association made to Prince Andrew? @Vlad specifically mentioned the news forum was deleted because it was just too hard to manage.
> 
> I guess it's hard as a poster to see hundreds of mentions of ***** on the thread and then to have your post deleted for saying his name. That doesn't make it very easy to understand what's allowed and what isn't.



Of course. We get a lot of mentions, or people trying to mention, their political leaning in many threads. It has happened since this forum started, I find many people have a hard time keeping politics out of their commentary.

But, that being said, we have from day 1 of the forum's inception, had a no politics or religion rule. We decided this long ago, and we've stuck with this. I can monitor as many threads as possible, but there is no way I will see all political mentions. As Swanky said, without reports, things will get missed. If there is a thread that has pages of problems, just say 'hey check out this thread, needs some clean up' and I'll be able to look at more posts that way.

Epstein/Prince Andrew fall into celebrity, which is why that thread found a different home. Since you've said it's a problem, I'll be sure to look at it more often myself and see what needs to be removed.

The news section was closed for many reasons. One was that many people brought up politics and that was a constant issue. Another was the news was so grim that people truly hated seeing it there. Then we tried to separate the areas to true crimes and other news. It was just a really weird area to have and it ran into problems with political posts and a lot of really negative stories. We are not saying that politics and negative, horrible news doesn't exist. It does, every single day around all of us. But what we are saying is there are plenty of other venues to discuss it, and we decided not to allow that here.



Mimmy said:


> Against my better judgement, I looked at the Prince Harry/Meghan Markle thread and pretty quickly found a not so subtle (to me anyway) racist post. I reported the post but don’t plan on returning to the thread. I don’t have the time to keep up with it and reading the posts upsets and angers me. That thread is obviously very popular and moves quickly.
> 
> I agree with you that becoming more inclusive is going to be difficult if things remain the same. TPF used to be my guilty pleasure. I am enjoying and am moved by the discussion on this thread as I think it is important.
> 
> I am thinking that I should really only participate on the bag, fashion and gardening threads.
> 
> I am also deciding if I should leave TPF entirely if as you mentioned the bias continues. I don’t want to keep reporting things as that really is not in my nature and honestly I don’t have the time. By not speaking up though I feel that I am condoning this continuing narrative and bias.



I wanted to respond to you as well. We rely on reported posts. Reported posts are one of the only ways I can view different areas of the forum and keep things in check. The only way I can be sure that we remove anything racist or political or calling out other members or any other number of violations to our TOS is reports.

There are so many wonderful members on this forum. It's the same as our day to day lives. We are surrounded by so many different people. Some are the best of friends to us, some inspire us, some challenge us, and some are bad people. Some are racist, some are bullies, some are mean, some are negative. We have to live amongst all different people.

But that doesn't mean that we aren't doing everything in our power to find those who violate our TOS and monitor or ban them when needed!



mrsinsyder said:


> Who said it was negative? It's an accurate representation of who writes for TPF. If you're embarrassed of that, then that should tell you something.



As I said before, that isn't our entire list of writers, that is some right now. Not everyone that you shared is full time, a few of those are freelancers, but you did not share our entire list of freelancers that we've had over the past year. But, you are making assumptions based on a tiny photo of someone and you're also wrong in your assumptions. Legally, I can't share people's race/ethnicity unless we follow proper protocol and have them fill out information (only if they chose to) and then make that public.

We are operating fairly light due to COVID and our business, like majority of others, is being impacted. We did put a call out asking for potential new writers, and hope to revisit that soon as more businesses continue opening up and our business allows.


Christina48576 said:


> Using the Michelle ***** style thread to justify the style thread does equate the two women. And it isn't about political views either, it's about racism. I feel the style thread normalizes the very harmful, and offensive (I'm talking around it but in particular birtherism) things she has said and done. Her beauty or style cannot be untangled from who she really is.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't about whether I like them or not. People can have a million different reasons for liking one politician or whatever. But when someone has fed a wildly racist conspiracy theory, that can never be irrelevant.



Vlad and I are reviewing the First Lady style threads to see if they serve a place on our forums based on the rules we have set up.


----------



## Christina48576

Megs said:


> Vlad and I are reviewing the First Lady style threads to see if they serve a place on our forums based on the rules we have set up


 Thank you. I understand things are changing and it can be really tough to keep up as content creators. I was inspired by your posts on instagram about supporting Black-owned business and how PurseBlog can go better. That is really the reason I feel like these conversations can be had in the forum. I really do appreciate all your responses.


----------



## Swanky

mrsinsyder said:


> Also it’s completely laughable that the Melanie thread is considered non political. There are so many posts in there fawning over what a great job they’re doing, how class has returned to the White House etc.



please report anything you read that violates our TOS. I don’t read her thread, if there’s something offensive and you see it, it’s easy to report.


----------



## mrsinsyder

Swanky said:


> No it doesn’t *IMO*. I respect your opinion.


This attitude is very hurtful to people of color who have been negatively affected by the policies of this administration. This family has disparaged people who look like me for years. Why are we expected to separate that from anything??


----------



## Megs

Christina48576 said:


> Thank you. I understand things are changing and it can be really tough to keep up as content creators. I was inspired by your posts on instagram about supporting Black-owned business and how PurseBlog can go better. That is really the reason I feel like these conversations can be had in the forum. I really do appreciate all your responses.



I've always been happy to have many conversations on the forum, privately and on the board itself! It can be hard when certain TOS are broken when these important conversations are trying to happen, but I believe in allowing people to share their thoughts and concerns and listening to them, openly and intently. 

I always think there is plenty new for me to learn and ways to improve myself. I think we all should live openly in this way, it only serves to better us. I want this forum to be a great place for people to come and enjoy a shared passion. I am happy to admit that what worked at one time may not work now and evolve and change.


----------



## mrsinsyder

Swanky said:


> please report anything you read that violates our TOS. I don’t read her thread, if there’s something offensive and you see it, it’s easy to report.


We are pointing out bad behavior. It’s not helpful to keep saying it’s invisible unless it’s reported. I’m not the one who is paid to monitor this site.


----------



## Swanky

mrsinsyder said:


> This attitude is very hurtful to people of color who have been negatively affected by the policies of this administration. This family has disparaged people who look like me for years. Why are we expected to separate that from anything??


I didn’t start thread, nor do I participate in it. I don’t own tpf and the style threads are allowed. 
I’m sure there’s many celebs with threads here that are considered racist people, do they all need to be deleted?
I’m majority Native American, I have 2 sides of my family that are people of color.  We’re listed on the Dawes Rolls and I’m a member of the Cherokee Nation. I’m not insensitive, I’m honoring my role on this site as outlined by the owners.


----------



## mrsinsyder

Megs said:


> As I said before, that isn't our entire list of writers, that is some right now. Not everyone that you shared is full time, a few of those are freelancers, but you did not share our entire list of freelancers that we've had over the past year. But, you are making assumptions based on a tiny photo of someone and you're also wrong in your assumptions. Legally, I can't share people's race/ethnicity unless we follow proper protocol and have them fill out information (only if they chose to) and then make that public.
> 
> We are operating fairly light due to COVID and our business, like majority of others, is being impacted. We did put a call out asking for potential new writers, and hope to revisit that soon as more businesses continue opening up and our business allows.



If that's the case, then I apologize. I went back in posts to the beginning of the year and did not see any other authors besides the ones posted, so that seemed like a fairly accurate point in time representation. I have no idea what their ethnicities are, but I can see that everyone is white-passing and identifies as female. They all make great content and I'm sure are very nice people. It's no different than when a designer gets called out for having all white-passing models. 

It seems like there is reluctance to just say "perhaps our writing team does need some more diversity!" That doesn't mean you've done anything wrong! It means there's room to grow. That's so much easier than bending over backwards to show that someone 25% Latinx or has a black husband.

Heck, I'll go first. I'm racist. I have been racist. I've contributed to racist threads. I've liked posts that were probably made with racist intent. I will be racist in the future. But I'm going to do my absolute best to not be. I'm going to check myself continually. And I'm not going to stand by while racism is allowed.


----------



## eunaddict

GeorgiaGirl67 said:


> It's not ok in the U.K. to refer to Asians as Orientals. I learned the hard way years ago when I inadvertently used the term on the Duran Duran fan club forum. I was QUICKLY scolded and corrected.




Thank you! I've had to explain to a few friends that vases and rugs were Oriental, I was not. It just brings to mind those old anti-Chinese posters and the Fu ManChu era.


----------



## dooneybaby

Mimmy said:


> Against my better judgement, I looked at the Prince Harry/Meghan Markle thread and pretty quickly found a not so subtle (to me anyway) racist post. I reported the post but don’t plan on returning to the thread. I don’t have the time to keep up with it and reading the posts upsets and angers me. That thread is obviously very popular and moves quickly.
> 
> I agree with you that becoming more inclusive is going to be difficult if things remain the same. TPF used to be my guilty pleasure. I am enjoying and am moved by the discussion on this thread as I think it is important.
> 
> I am thinking that I should really only participate on the bag, fashion and gardening threads.
> 
> I am also deciding if I should leave TPF entirely if as you mentioned the bias continues. I don’t want to keep reporting things as that really is not in my nature and honestly I don’t have the time. By not speaking up though I feel that I am condoning this continuing narrative and bias.


There are undercurrents of racism on much of social media that talks about Meghan Markle. I expected this the minute Prince Harry began seriously dating her. But you don't actually think that people are going to admit that they have it out for Meghan because she's a biracial woman who married into the British royal family, do you?
All the criticism actually makes me chuckle because it shows just how ignorant and hypocritical many people are. They refuse to acknowledge, or are ignorant of the truth, that the entire royal family has black ancestry. Queen Charlotte of Mecklenberg-Strelitz, wife of King George III, was also biracial, and was from black Portuguese royalty. If you look at her images, she clearly has features of a black woman.
What I find even more amusing is that the ignorant, racist Southerners in the United States actually named the largest city in North Carolina after her. Boy, would they be xxx in their pants if they knew that!


----------



## mrsinsyder

Swanky said:


> I’m sure there’s many celebs with threads here that are considered racist people, do they all need to be deleted?


I mean... yes? Not normalizing racism would be a great start.


----------



## dooneybaby

mrsinsyder said:


> I mean... yes? Not normalizing racism would be a great start.


Sometimes deleting things essentially has the same effect of sweeping things under the rug. I'd rather the person be called out and embarrassed. Look how many people have lost their jobs because videos on social media caught them showing their true colors.


----------



## Swanky

We may as well close the Celeb sections then.


----------



## 24HRglam

I think this is the appropriate thread to ask if anyone has read this article about the CFDA nominations: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/style/cfda-nominations.html


----------



## dooneybaby

Swanky said:


> I equated 2 women who are married to a President, whether people like either of them or not, is irrelevant.  In this case, they're simply spouses of politicians and no politics are allowed in either of their threads.  I've never compared them.
> Megs and Vlad allowed Michelle's and thus has allowed Melania's.


And I have to admit, that I have gone online and have ordered similar outfits that I've seen Melania wearing. She may influence some of my fashion decisions, but doesn't influence anything else. People have to be able to make that separation. You can like an outfit a person is wearing and not like the person. 
As a black woman, if I saw her as being more of a divisive figure, then I might have a problem. But frankly, she's made no impression on me whatsoever.


----------



## mrsinsyder

"Should we delete all racist things?"

_"Yes."_

"Well we have to delete a whole sub-forum then!"


----------



## Swanky

mrsinsyder said:


> "Should we delete all racist things?"
> 
> _"Yes."_
> 
> "Well we have to delete a whole sub-forum then!"



One of those isn’t an accurate quote. I said “I’m sure there’s many celebs with *threads* here that are considered racist people, do they all need to be deleted?”

Clearly if we see racist remarks from our members, we remove those.
Pretty sure you can find something racist said by nearly every celeb....


----------



## mrsinsyder

Swanky said:


> Onw of those isn’t an accurate quote. I said “I’m sure there’s many celebs with *threads* here that are considered racist people, do they all need to be deleted?”
> 
> Clearly if we see racist remarks from our members, we remove those.


I guess I haven't seen any known racists trending in the celeb space besides Jefree Star and Melania *****. Not sure why the whole forum would have to be thrown away.


----------



## Megs

mrsinsyder said:


> If that's the case, then I apologize. I went back in posts to the beginning of the year and did not see any other authors besides the ones posted, so that seemed like a fairly accurate point in time representation. I have no idea what their ethnicities are, but I can see that everyone is white-passing and identifies as female. They all make great content and I'm sure are very nice people. It's no different than when a designer gets called out for having all white-passing models.
> 
> It seems like there is reluctance to just say "perhaps our writing team does need some more diversity!" That doesn't mean you've done anything wrong! It means there's room to grow. That's so much easier than bending over backwards to show that someone 25% Latinx or has a black husband.
> 
> Heck, I'll go first. I'm racist. I have been racist. I've contributed to racist threads. I've liked posts that were probably made with racist intent. I will be racist in the future. But I'm going to do my absolute best to not be. I'm going to check myself continually. And I'm not going to stand by while racism is allowed.



Our team is really small. We only have 3 people full time. Aside from that, we are comprised of an array of people with different backgrounds, in different parts of the world. We have writers, illustrators, graphic designers, coders, developers, photographers. We have moderators from majority of continents with a wide array of backgrounds.

What I was saying is you took images of some current writers and made assumptions on our entire operation based on that. It's not fair to judge people or an entire company based on a couple photos you found. I've said many times we will remove any racist comments we see on our site. I am constantly working to make sure this forum is a safe and fair place for all members. I've said we can do better and find better ways to ensure that it is just that. 

I didn't say that I wasn't looking for a more diverse group of freelance writers, I am!! I believe we need a diverse group with different backgrounds and races and ethnicities to talk about this passion we all share and share their view on it - which will be different than mine. I have said on the forum, on PurseBlog, and on social media, that I plan to do that along with feature a wide variety of different designers from Minority-owned brands


----------



## Swanky

Because, like I said, most celebs have been caught making racist remarks.


----------



## TraceySH

Swanky said:


> Because, like I said, most celebs have been caught making racist remarks.


As have most fashion houses at one point or another.


----------



## mrsinsyder

I'm so grateful we've been able to have these conversations but I think for my own mental health I need to step away. I do hope the commitment that Megs has expressed can be realized - TPF is a wonderful place and that can only make it better!


----------



## Christina48576

Swanky said:


> One of those isn’t an accurate quote. I said “I’m sure there’s many celebs with *threads* here that are considered racist people, do they all need to be deleted?”
> 
> Clearly if we see racist remarks from our members, we remove those.
> Pretty sure you can find something racist said by nearly every celeb....



I would think it would be inappropriate to have a thread dedicated to Mel Gibson and everything posted was about how great he is. (He's the most obvious celeb racist I could think of off the top of my head). It is also questionable (I'm being generous here) to have a thread about a black or biracial woman that is virtually 100% bashing her. Racists shouldn't be given the due respect or time or space to continue these conversations at the expense of POC.  
*
I don't think every celebrity has said something racist (but I also don't think we should idolize celebs or expect them to have the same views as us because that is just going to lead to disappointment)


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

I'm so sorry. I get it, I really do. It is incredibly disappointing...and revealing. There are no "both sides" but people have to be willing to take a stand and that involves commitment and risk and courage.

I remember reading somewhere "if you've wondered what you would have done during slavery, the holocaust, or the civil rights movement...you're doing it now." I know I will make mistakes and not always get it right but I want to be proud of my answer when my kids (and I hope one day grandkids) ask me what I did during this time. 



mrsinsyder said:


> I'm so grateful we've been able to have these conversations but I think for my own mental health I need to step away. I do hope the commitment that Megs has expressed can be realized - TPF is a wonderful place and that can only make it better!


----------



## Mimmy

mrsinsyder said:


> I'm so grateful we've been able to have these conversations but I think for my own mental health I need to step away. I do hope the commitment that Megs has expressed can be realized - TPF is a wonderful place and that can only make it better!


I’ve enjoyed and learned things from your posts and perspective.

Only you know what the right thing for you to do is. Please take care.


----------



## minnnea

mrsinsyder said:


> I'm so grateful we've been able to have these conversations but I think for my own mental health I need to step away. I do hope the commitment that Megs has expressed can be realized - TPF is a wonderful place and that can only make it better!


A big thank you for your input! It has, as several have said, been eye opening. This thread has made me and many others uncomfortable but this is no easy subjet nor is it a fun topic. As a north european white person living among an almost white population a lot of this is new insights. Thanks, your insights and thouhgt are really appriciated


----------



## Winter’sJoy

I had a post deleted yesterday because I responded to a post about something ***** did and all my post said was I saw what he did and that I shook my head at it. This is why I find the forum pretty disingenuous as far as racism goes. It is nearly impossible to have a real discussion on racism and race relations without discussing politics. Politicians and the laws they enact have a profound affect on systematic racism and race relations in this country.


----------



## tulipfield

To me the issue is that Melania is a racist but also she is a first lady, making her a powerful political figure much more so than some other random celebrity who also happens to be racist (also, imo, her political nature breaks the rules here).  I support removing her thread _as well as Michelle *****’s_, and believe there shouldn’t be threads for political figures or their family in the future.  (At the end of the day, our political leaders are supposed to be working for us, we shouldn’t be putting any of them up on pedestals anyway.)


----------



## Megs

Winter’sJoy said:


> I had a post deleted yesterday because I responded to a post about something ***** did and all my post said was I saw what he did and that I shook my head at it. This is why I find the forum pretty disingenuous as far as racism goes. It is nearly impossible to have a real discussion on racism and race relations without discussing politics. Politicians and the laws they enact have a profound affect on systematic racism and race relations in this country.



Your post was deleted because the post you were responding to was deleted . Your post wasn't the problem, but the post you were quoting was violating our rules. If we remove a post, anyone that quotes that post has their post removed - it's just how we moderate because otherwise your response wouldn't make any sense there! Vlad and I are discussing even removing the name ***** from showing up, which would help combat political remarks across the forum that slip in here and there. 

Remember, while many of us are US based, plenty on the forum are not US based. People around the world experience racism, this isn't just a US issue. Racism is experienced by so many people across the globe. I am really happy this thread has been one that's shared many points of views, discussed concerns, had questions answered, and hopefully been a meaningful conversation for many.


----------



## dooneybaby

sdkitty said:


> if she has made no impression on you and you are a WOC maybe you should look into her history.  she vocally supported the "birther" accusations against ***** (on TV)....I don't care how well she walks in high heels


To me, she's a non-person. An unimportant piece of plastic surgery. She has no influence on anything in American society. Michelle ***** is a woman of values and integrity, and what she says has influence on our society. And she's STILL making a positive impact on our nation. 
Melania is just a pin-up doll who for money, agreed to be the third wife of an evil man who clearly cheated on her.


----------



## Mimmy

24HRglam said:


> I think this is the appropriate thread to ask if anyone has read this article about the CFDA nominations: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/style/cfda-nominations.html


I had not read it, thank you for posting.


----------



## opensesame

dooneybaby said:


> You're confusing racism with prejudice. Anyone can be prejudice, but racism is when power is also involved.
> In the United States, white people are the only group to have established and kept power, and it was achieved through oppressing others. Even when some black people became prosperous and owned land after slavery, there were concerted efforts to take that land away, either through legislation or through violence.
> The massacre in Tulsa, Oklahoma - also known as the Black Wall Street - happened because white Americans didn't want blacks to prosper. As one white attacker rampaged through a black family's home, he even commented, "They have a piano. I don't even have a piano."
> And what do you think colonization is? It's nothing but pure racism. White people invading non-white cultures because they thought they were superior. (Sorry folks, but let's tell it like it is.)
> So no, not every race, as a whole, owns racism. They just don't have that kind of power. There are individual examples of such racism, but as an entire people - no.



I believe all races are capable of discriminating people based on race. Generally, people treat their own race better.


----------



## dooneybaby

opensesame said:


> I believe all races are capable of discriminating people based on race. Generally, people treat their own race better.


"Generally, people treat their own race better."
Oh, you think so, huh?
As I said before, the black American experience is very different from just about any other experience. Without getting too deep into the topic, I'll just say that especially with younger generations, there is a certain percentage (I said percentage, not all) of black men who do not value or respect black women. If you go on YouTube, you'll see dozens and dozens of black men who do videos that degrade black women and rip them apart. Not that I care to get into the "family dirt," but I've seen no other race or ethnicity of man get on YouTube and debase the women in their own ethnic group. 
Perfect example: Nick Cannon just got in trouble for making anti-Semitic statements on a radio show. Many people don't realize that not too long ago, Nick Cannon made statements demeaning black women, and he called non-black women "the prize." 
And if any black women in this thread care to challenge me on this, go ahead. 

As far as all races being capable of "discrimination," I never said they weren't. I said that only groups in power can practice "racism." Racism is different from discrimination or prejudice.


----------



## CarryOn2020

This has been a very interesting insight into the inner workings of TpF.  Some comments have enlightened me, some clearly reflect an agenda, some are just downright confusing — such is life, no?  

Just to clarify where we are here: 
Is it ok for a member to express a dislike of a celebrity’s behavior or comments or actions or clothing?
If not, then this site is nothing more than a vehicle for the celebrity to merchandise his/her products without any complaints or critical thoughts. Orwell called this ‘groupthink’. William Golding in “Lord of the Flies” and Robert Cormier in “The Chocolate War” presented similar themes.  So, must all posters be cheerleaders for the celebrity? Is that what this site is about?  As others have said, if that is what TpF wants, then I am outta here.


----------



## lalame

Wow I quite enjoyed reading this thread and have a newfound respect for some of the members I brush by on threads here and there. Happy to continually find that TPF ladies have style _and_ substance.


----------



## dooneybaby

TraceySH said:


> As have most fashion houses at one point or another.


Which only supports the statement that racism is deeply ingrained into every aspect of society. And I'm glad that many people who have been in denial finally see this.


----------



## Mimmy

@opensesame I agree that all races can discriminate. Again, discrimination and prejudice are different than racism.

I disagree that people generally treat their own race better. The way I treat people is based on my interactions with them and how they treat me.


----------



## lalame

dooneybaby said:


> As far as all races being capable of "discrimination," I never said they weren't. I said that only groups in power can practice "racism." Racism is different from discrimination or prejudice.



I think this is very true and actually don't even think it is at odds with what the prev poster was saying. Many of us in the US are so ingrained in the social injustice happening in our country, we forget that other countries have their own flavor of injustice. The majority, the group in power, etc. seems to always be at odds with the minority's existence, whether it's race, religion, class. It's sad.


----------



## dooneybaby

CarryOn2020 said:


> This has been a very interesting insight into the inner workings of TpF.  Some comments have enlightened me, some clearly reflect an agenda, some are just downright confusing — such is life, no?
> 
> Just to clarify where we are here:
> Is it ok for a member to express a dislike of a celebrity’s behavior or comments or actions or clothing?
> If not, then this site is nothing more than a vehicle for the celebrity to merchandise his/her products without any complaints or critical thoughts. Orwell called this ‘groupthink’. William Golding in “Lord of the Flies” and Robert Cormier in “The Chocolate War” presented similar themes.  So, must all posters be cheerleaders for the celebrity? Is that what this site is about?  As others have said, if that is what TpF wants, then I am outta here.


People have the right to voice their opinions. But I will say that being a black woman in her 50s, I've been around long enough to know that when someone goes on a bash fest with the "Meghan Markle is so underhanded and manipulative," "Meghan Markle is nothing but a classless gold digger," "Meghan Markle's family is nothing but trash," I know that more than likely, they wouldn't be making these statements if Meghan Markle wasn't part black. What's that saying? I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.


----------



## Cosmopolitan

What does this thread have to do with “sheltering in place” because of coronavirus, the subforum where it’s located?


----------



## CarryOn2020

Cosmopolitan said:


> What does this thread have to do with “sheltering in place” because of coronavirus, the subforum where it’s located?



Nothing. This forum has been off topic for at least 20 pages. The good news is that all of us are learning.


----------



## tulipfield

dooneybaby said:


> "Generally, people treat their own race better."
> Oh, you think so, huh?
> As I said before, the black American experience is very different from just about any other experience. Without getting too deep into the topic, I'll just say that especially with younger generations, there is a certain percentage (I said percentage, not all) of black men who do not value or respect black women. If you go on YouTube, you'll see dozens and dozens of black men who do videos that degrade black women and rip them apart. Not that I care to get into the "family dirt," but I've seen no other race or ethnicity of man get on YouTube and debase the women in their own ethnic group.
> Perfect example: Nick Cannon just got in trouble for making anti-Semitic statements on a radio show. Many people don't realize that not too long ago, Nick Cannon made statements demeaning black women, and he called non-black women "the prize."
> And if any black women in this thread care to challenge me on this, go ahead.



Agreed.  We can see self-loathing in a lot of groups.  Speaking for my own background,  some Latinos, particularly some whose families have been in the US for a long time, would rather align themselves with white power than stand in solidarity with their own community and other minority groups.


----------



## lalame

dooneybaby said:


> People have the right to voice their opinions. But I will say that being a black woman in her 50s, I've been around long enough to know that when someone goes on a bash fest with the "Meghan Markle is so underhanded and manipulative," "Meghan Markle is nothing but a classless gold digger," "Meghan Markle's family is nothing but trash," I know that more than likely, they wouldn't be making these statements if Meghan Markle wasn't part black. What's that saying? I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.



Here's where I have to disagree with you, and no surprise I am a frequent poster in that thread. I absolutely agree there are racists out there who criticize her or any BIPOC based on their race, but I don't think it's fair to paint the entire thread (or any entire group) with that brush. MM is a divisive figure, and like any divisive figure including the Kardashians, Gwyneth Paltrow, and on there is a mix of fair and unfair criticism. And frankly, when people talk about Meghan's family being trash, let's be honest they are entirely talking about the white side - you know, that side that continues to go on TV to trash talk her. People see Meghan as a modern day Wallis, and they absolutely call Wallis a classless gold digger though she is white. Some things go beyond race.

You have every right to be skeptical, don't blame you there, but I'm sharing my experience in that channel.


----------



## CarryOn2020

dooneybaby said:


> People have the right to voice their opinions. But I will say that being a black woman in her 50s, I've been around long enough to know that when someone goes on a bash fest with the "Meghan Markle is so underhanded and manipulative," "Meghan Markle is nothing but a classless gold digger," "Meghan Markle's family is nothing but trash," I know that more than likely, they wouldn't be making these statements if Meghan Markle wasn't part black. What's that saying? I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.



Who said those things?

ETA: I just did a search on ‘gold diggers in _that_ forum.  The first page of results refer to Kanye’s song. Some of the others are indeed offensive. No idea why those comments remain.  It just points to the inconsistency of TpF.  How should that be fixed?


----------



## opensesame

dooneybaby said:


> "Generally, people treat their own race better."
> Oh, you think so, huh?
> As I said before, the black American experience is very different from just about any other experience. Without getting too deep into the topic, I'll just say that especially with younger generations, there is a certain percentage (I said percentage, not all) of black men who do not value or respect black women. If you go on YouTube, you'll see dozens and dozens of black men who do videos that degrade black women and rip them apart. Not that I care to get into the "family dirt," but I've seen no other race or ethnicity of man get on YouTube and debase the women in their own ethnic group.
> Perfect example: Nick Cannon just got in trouble for making anti-Semitic statements on a radio show. Many people don't realize that not too long ago, Nick Cannon made statements demeaning black women, and he called non-black women "the prize."
> And if any black women in this thread care to challenge me on this, go ahead.
> 
> As far as all races being capable of "discrimination," I never said they weren't. I said that only groups in power can practice "racism." Racism is different from discrimination or prejudice.



I agree that institutional racism can only be practiced by those in power, but I think anyone can discriminate others based on race and be a racist.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

dooneybaby said:


> "Generally, people treat their own race better."
> Oh, you think so, huh?
> As I said before, the black American experience is very different from just about any other experience. Without getting too deep into the topic, I'll just say that especially with younger generations, there is a certain percentage (I said percentage, not all) of black men who do not value or respect black women. If you go on YouTube, you'll see dozens and dozens of black men who do videos that degrade black women and rip them apart. Not that I care to get into the "family dirt," but I've seen no other race or ethnicity of man get on YouTube and debase the women in their own ethnic group.
> Perfect example: Nick Cannon just got in trouble for making anti-Semitic statements on a radio show. Many people don't realize that not too long ago, Nick Cannon made statements demeaning black women, and he called non-black women "the prize."
> And if any black women in this thread care to challenge me on this, go ahead.
> 
> As far as all races being capable of "discrimination," I never said they weren't. I said that only groups in power can practice "racism." Racism is different from discrimination or prejudice.


Now this is where I have to disagree and this is why I don’t look to celebrities to be a true reflection of the black experience or thoughts surrounding black women. No black men I know in real life speak disparaging towards black women and ALL are in marriages or relationships with black women.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

opensesame said:


> I agree that institutional racism can only be practiced by those in power, but I think anyone can discriminate others based on race and be a racist.


Anyone cannot be a racist. Prejudice, bigot or say stereotypical things? Yes, but racism is a power structure that minorities cannot control or utilize to effectively discriminate against anyone.


----------



## sdkitty

opensesame said:


> I agree that institutional racism can only be practiced by those in power, but I think anyone can discriminate others based on race and be a racist.


maybe we're getting into semantics here but I think anyone who hates another person due to their race would be a racist......even if they are not in a position to discrimate against that person.  I know a man who hasn't spoken to his daughter in years and years because she got involved with a black man.  His own wife characterizes him as racist


----------



## Winter’sJoy

I just want to drop this concerning the word racism. I also want to highlight this excerpt:


On 28 May, Ms Mitchum emailed Merriam-Webster to point out that racism is "both prejudice combined with social and institutional power. It is a system of advantage based on skin colour".




			Redirect Notice


----------



## Winter’sJoy

People always want to use the “you do it too” defense when it comes to racism and say you can be racist to me too in an attempt to downplay the true intentions and results of racism which is backed by power. Now who has more power in this world?


----------



## TraceySH

Winter’sJoy said:


> People always want to use the “you do it too” defense when it comes to racism and say you can be racist to me too in an attempt to downplay the true intentions and results of racism which is backed by power. Now who has more power in this world?


Those with the most money in the short list of dominating countries, maybe the top .01% in each, (which would include various races, the USA being #1 of course) as those are the ones that effect policy, trade, government, hierarchy, legislature, etc. Power and wealth (classism) have a tighter bond than power and race IMO.










						The most powerful countries on earth in 2020, ranked
					

US News & World Report ranked nations by their level of power, with many countries seeing their position shift amid instability and political changes.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Winter’sJoy

TraceySH said:


> Those with the most money on the short list of dominating countries, (which would include various races, the USA being #1 of course) as those are the ones that effect policy, trade, government, hierarchy, legislature, etc. Power and wealth (classism) have a tighter bond than power and race IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most powerful countries on earth in 2020, ranked
> 
> 
> US News & World Report ranked nations by their level of power, with many countries seeing their position shift amid instability and political changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


Since when does it include various races? Please name some of these of various races?


----------



## TraceySH

Winter’sJoy said:


> Since when does it include various races? Please name some of these of various races?


If you read the list of the most powerful countries in the world, they are widely split between Asia (incl Middle East), Africa, South America and Western Countries (including Europe and the USA). Those with the most wealth have a seat at any table, anywhere, and control governments, trade, resources, and legislature (which includes social/ religious/ taxes/ business/ opportunities).


----------



## Mimmy

CarryOn2020 said:


> Who said those things?
> 
> ETA: I just did a search on ‘gold diggers in _that_ forum.  The first page of results refer to Kanye’s song. Some of the others are indeed offensive. No idea why those comments remain.  It just points to the inconsistency of TpF.  How should that be fixed?


I was a regular poster on that thread in the beginning but after repeatedly being criticized and called a “stan” for admiring MM I simply chose to leave. Other “fans” also quit posting as for every one positive post several detractors would pile on to dispute your opinion. I did not report any of this as I am an adult and choose to fight my own battles. I understand now that it would be impossible for the mods to monitor the thread all the time as it is very popular and moves quickly. There were a group of us that would post positive comments but after posting one positive comment and getting several posters piling on to tell you why your opinion is wrong it becomes tiring and unnecessarily stressful. 

Other posters have mentioned making a separate “fan thread” but honestly that would bore me to tears. I enjoy discussion and as you said if only positive things can be posted what would be the fun in that? Unless it’s changed significantly that thread only allows discussion when you are posting negative comments. I can see where MM is a divisive figure. I just don’t see any balance in that thread. 

@lalame I respectfully disagree that when people refer to MM’s family as trash they are only referring to the white members. Early on many untrue and inflammatory information from some papers/tabloids were posted about her mom. I think they were removed with a “never mind” type of attitude.

So what can be done about this? Sadly I think nothing at this point. There is a tone that has been set and it would be difficult to change. I have other threads that I still enjoy and will just stay off that thread.

I understand now that someone would have to continue to view that thread and report posts that are inappropriate. I am paraphrasing but as @QuelleFromage said I simply don’t have the stomach for it.


----------



## dooneybaby

TraceySH said:


> Those with the most money in the short list of dominating countries, maybe the top .01% in each, (which would include various races, the USA being #1 of course) as those are the ones that effect policy, trade, government, hierarchy, legislature, etc. Power and wealth (classism) have a tighter bond than power and race IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most powerful countries on earth in 2020, ranked
> 
> 
> US News & World Report ranked nations by their level of power, with many countries seeing their position shift amid instability and political changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


I read your comment and I  think  about  what  happened  to  Oprah,  one of the richest women in the world.  She wanted to look  at a $38,000 handbag in a boutique in Europe. The SA wouldn't  show it to her and commented that she couldn't  afford it. The SA just saw a black woman. Oprah's wealth didn't  help her in that situation.
We as black Americans  are told this by our parents: It doesn't  matter how rich you are, or how educated you are, you're  still seen as a ******.

If you  haven't lived  the experience, then don't try to pretend you know it.


----------



## TraceySH

dooneybaby said:


> I read your comment and I  think  about  what  happened  to  Oprah,  one of the richest women in the world.  She wanted to look  at a $38,000 handbag in a boutique in Europe. The SA wouldn't  show it to her and commented that she couldn't  afford it. The SA just saw a black woman. Oprah's wealth didn't  help her in that situation.
> We as black Americans  are told this by our parents: It doesn't  matter how rich you are, or how educated you are, you're  still seen as a ni99er.
> 
> If you  haven't lived  the experience, then don't try to pretend you know it.


I was answering the question of “who has more power in this world” and my opinion is the wealthiest people do. Just my opinion, and I’ll stick to it.


----------



## dooneybaby

Mimmy said:


> I was a regular poster on that thread in the beginning but after repeatedly being criticized and called a “stan” for admiring MM I simply chose to leave. Other “fans” also quit posting as for every one positive post several detractors would pile on to dispute your opinion. I did not report any of this as I am an adult and choose to fight my own battles. I understand now that it would be impossible for the mods to monitor the thread all the time as it is very popular and moves quickly. There were a group of us that would post positive comments but after posting one positive comment and getting several posters piling on to tell you why your opinion is wrong it becomes tiring and unnecessarily stressful.
> 
> Other posters have mentioned making a separate “fan thread” but honestly that would bore me to tears. I enjoy discussion and as you said if only positive things can be posted what would be the fun in that? Unless it’s changed significantly that thread only allows discussion when you are posting negative comments. I can see where MM is a divisive figure. I just don’t see any balance in that thread.
> 
> @lalame I respectfully disagree that when people refer to MM’s family as trash they are only referring to the white members. Early on many untrue and inflammatory information from some papers/tabloids were posted about her mom. I think they were removed with a “never mind” type of attitude.
> 
> So what can be done about this? Sadly I think nothing at this point. There is a tone that has been set and it would be difficult to change. I have other threads that I still enjoy and will just stay off that thread.
> 
> I understand now that someone would have to continue to view that thread and report posts that are inappropriate. I am paraphrasing but as @QuelleFromage said I simply don’t have the stomach for it.


Well, actually, critics talked about Meghan's mom living in the hood, which she does not. And I think the haters also were trying to point out that even though Meghan is half white, the white half is trash.


----------



## haute okole

mrsinsyder said:


> Heck, I'll go first. I'm racist. I have been racist. I've contributed to racist threads. I've liked posts that were probably made with racist intent. I will be racist in the future. But I'm going to do my absolute best to not be. I'm going to check myself continually. And I'm not going to stand by while racism is allowed.



This is the PURSE Forum, not group therapy.  Posting pictures of the contributors and calling them out as if to shame them for being all white is uncalled for.


----------



## dooneybaby

Cosmopolitan said:


> What does this thread have to do with “sheltering in place” because of coronavirus, the subforum where it’s located?


Do you have a problem with people from various walks of life finally being willing to come together to discuss race and attempt to work out some issues? Something our ancestors should  have done a long time  ago? If you want to join the discussion,  you're welcome. We're  all learning here. And I'm sure that being stuck at home for months has given many of us time to contemplate how we can make  life better  for ourselves  and for others.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

dooneybaby said:


> I read your comment and I  think  about  what  happened  to  Oprah,  one of the richest women in the world.  She wanted to look  at a $38,000 handbag in a boutique in Europe. The SA wouldn't  show it to her and commented that she couldn't  afford it. The SA just saw a black woman. Oprah's wealth didn't  help her in that situation.
> We as black Americans  are told this by our parents: It doesn't  matter how rich you are, or how educated you are, you're  still seen as a ni99er.
> 
> If you  haven't lived  the experience, then don't try to pretend you know it.


Thank you! I decided not to comment further to that poster because somethings people really fail to see. Even Oprah really doesn’t “own” anything other than what they allow. She still has to tow the line and is beholding to those higher. Oprah still can be “put in her place” if she steps on the wrong toes. It’s all an illusion of some sort because of course they have to allow tokens to seem to have a seat at the table but they can only move as far as the powers that be allow. I am not fooled nor am I happy because a select few are allowed at the top when for everyone allowed there are 5 more that are Caucasian.


----------



## lalame

Mimmy said:


> I was a regular poster on that thread in the beginning but after repeatedly being criticized and called a “stan” for admiring MM I simply chose to leave. Other “fans” also quit posting as for every one positive post several detractors would pile on to dispute your opinion. I did not report any of this as I am an adult and choose to fight my own battles. I understand now that it would be impossible for the mods to monitor the thread all the time as it is very popular and moves quickly. There were a group of us that would post positive comments but after posting one positive comment and getting several posters piling on to tell you why your opinion is wrong it becomes tiring and unnecessarily stressful.
> 
> Other posters have mentioned making a separate “fan thread” but honestly that would bore me to tears. I enjoy discussion and as you said if only positive things can be posted what would be the fun in that? Unless it’s changed significantly that thread only allows discussion when you are posting negative comments. I can see where MM is a divisive figure. I just don’t see any balance in that thread.
> 
> @lalame I respectfully disagree that when people refer to MM’s family as trash they are only referring to the white members. Early on many untrue and inflammatory information from some papers/tabloids were posted about her mom. I think they were removed with a “never mind” type of attitude.
> 
> So what can be done about this? Sadly I think nothing at this point. There is a tone that has been set and it would be difficult to change. I have other threads that I still enjoy and will just stay off that thread.
> 
> I understand now that someone would have to continue to view that thread and report posts that are inappropriate. I am paraphrasing but as @QuelleFromage said I simply don’t have the stomach for it.



I do think it sucks that MM fans don't feel welcome in that thread, and I felt the same way when I first poked my head in (as a fan). Can't deny that. But at the same time, if fans don't stay... then where is the balance? I also can't speak for everyone in there but I'm just trying to say... not everyone subscribes to those ideas. It would be very welcome to me, and probably others, to see some positivity in there too. In general, I think all threads should have a mix of opinions to keep it interesting. That's what I am enjoying about this thread.


----------



## Winter’sJoy

I think I’m done with this forum because there is a poster that is being very rude and nothing is ever done about it.


----------



## sdkitty

dooneybaby said:


> Well, actually, critics talked about Meghan's mom living in the hood, which she does not. And I think the haters also were trying to point out that even though Meghan is half white, the white half is trash.


no one on the PF posted anything negative about her mom - unless you think it was inflammatory to say maybe she knew Marianne Williamson


----------



## Christina48576

haute okole said:


> This is the PURSE Forum, not GD group therapy.  Take it outside.  Posting pictures of the contributors and calling them out as if to shame them for being all white is uncalled for.


C’mon, The forum extends far beyond purses. Tons of serious conversations happen in other threads and frivolous fun ones too! No one is forcing you to read this thread or others that don't deal with with the titular topic. But in this thread, some of us are trying to have a real, mature, honest conversation about something very much in the zeitgeist. Also, I love therapy! No shame in that!


----------



## keodi

Megs said:


> The forum is large and because of the size, it makes moderating at times hard in the way that some posts will get missed, or how one moderator will handle one situation isn't how another will handle it.
> 
> As I said, please please always PM me directly if you see something a miss and want me to check it out. How our moderation system works is we get flagged on a report, but we can also mark something as handled (say there was spam deleted, the moderator can delete the spam, ban the poster, and mark it as resolved). This system makes some posts slip thru the cracks for me.
> 
> I promise to check my PMs, check all reports, and handle things in a way that not only follows our TOS but also makes tPF a safe space for all. There will be mistakes, but that's why I'm asking you to reach out to me directly if you need anything ever!


I sent you a pm last week, did you get it?


Mimmy said:


> *Against my better judgement, I looked at the Prince Harry/Meghan Markle thread and pretty quickly found a not so subtle (to me anyway) racist post. I reported the post but don’t plan on returning to the thread. I don’t have the time to keep up with it and reading the posts upsets and angers me. That thread is obviously very popular and moves quickly.
> 
> I agree with you that becoming more inclusive is going to be difficult if things remain the same. TPF used to be my guilty pleasure. I am enjoying and am moved by the discussion on this thread as I think it is important.*
> 
> I am thinking that I should really only participate on the bag, fashion and gardening threads.
> 
> I am also deciding if I should leave TPF entirely if as you mentioned the bias continues. I don’t want to keep reporting things as that really is not in my nature and honestly I don’t have the time. By not speaking up though I feel that I am condoning this continuing narrative and bias.


I agree, that thread is very toxic.


dooneybaby said:


> "Generally, people treat their own race better."
> Oh, you think so, huh?
> *As I said before, the black American experience is very different from just about any other experience. Without getting too deep into the topic, I'll just say that especially with younger generations, there is a certain percentage (I said percentage, not all) of black men who do not value or respect black women. If you go on YouTube, you'll see dozens and dozens of black men who do videos that degrade black women and rip them apart*. Not that I care to get into the "family dirt," but I've seen no other race or ethnicity of man get on YouTube and debase the women in their own ethnic group.
> Perfect example: Nick Cannon just got in trouble for making anti-Semitic statements on a radio show. Many people don't realize that not too long ago, Nick Cannon made statements demeaning black women, and he called non-black women "the prize."
> And if any black women in this thread care to challenge me on this, go ahead.
> 
> As far as all races being capable of "discrimination," I never said they weren't. I said that only groups in power can practice "racism." Racism is different from discrimination or prejudice.


i agree with you on this i know a lot of black men in real life that is on the self hate train, it's sad to see.


----------



## lalame

But back to the original topic, I have to wonder if racism or classicism will ever be "out of fashion." It seems like fashion at its core is partly defined by what's un-fashionable, which marginalizes people who can't afford to consume at the scale it takes to be and remain fashionable or people who are outside the prevailing standard of beauty. And I'm talking strictly about capital F "Fashion" here... style is another matter that is more ********ic.


----------



## 880

haute okole said:


> This is the PURSE Forum, not GD group therapy.  Take it outside.  Posting pictures of the contributors and calling them out as if to shame them for being all white is uncalled for.



IMO there are two sides to this, and both have a right to be expressed, and reasonable people can do that in a civil fashion.

If I recall, the issue was raised and answered a number of pages back. I like and respect BBC, notorious pink, and I believe she mentioned that she felt the pics singled her and others out in a way that was not positive. (I know if I were in her place, I would agree with her and feel extremely uncomfortable as none of the contirbutors did anything wrong. They’ve all written articles that TPfers value and enjoy.

But there is another, equally valid viewpoint, if you look at what was stated in the original post, it was plainly stated there are no POC in the group of contributors. Megs already answered why this was, but the simple fact that there are none (though there was no ill intent, and Megs informed us, she has actually been trying to get a more diverse group of authors). As a detour, yes, we can all agree thta Chanel was a likely Nazi collaborator. We’re not flaming anyone for loivng Chanel (me included), and Swanky went so far as to comment, there would be no TPF if we excluded the guilty fashion houses. This thread is just bringing out the f@tc that racism is so engrained, it permeates all of the stuff all of us love. 

I think it’s uncomfortable for anyone to be put on the spot, but the point of this thread is that fashion historically is actually (intentionally or not) racist. There was a divergence for a number of pages Because of some of the posters (me included) conflating (systemic) racism with prejudice. Some posters (like me) thought that the thread was enriched by the sheer variety of experiences, others felt it would be better served to separate.

This topic is not meant to be easy or feel good. . . When I have enough of it, I go to other areas of the thread. I don’t say that a certain type of post that makes me squirm  doesn’t belong. IMO, even if we disagree or have different political views or whatever, it doesn’t mean that one view can displace another on TPF.

what I think we all should do is try to give each other the benefit of the doubt. I truly don’t believe that anyone here means to deliberately hurt another TPFer and sometimes written words can come across as harsher than spoken ones.


----------



## opensesame

lalame said:


> But back to the original topic, I have to wonder if racism or classicism will ever be "out of fashion." It seems like fashion at its core is partly defined by what's un-fashionable, which marginalizes people who can't afford to consume at the scale it takes to be and remain fashionable or people who are outside the prevailing standard of beauty. And I'm talking strictly about capital F "Fashion" here... style is another matter that is more ********ic.



I think Classism will never go out of fashion. Deep down, we all aspire to belong to the upper crust.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

sdkitty said:


> no one on the PF posted anything negative about her mom - unless you think it was inflammatory to say maybe she knew Marianne Williamson



Other than the posters who claimed she’d been in jail and had a criminal record.


----------



## doni

dooneybaby said:


> "Generally, people treat their own race better."
> Oh, you think so, huh?
> As I said before, the black American experience is very different from just about any other experience. Without getting too deep into the topic, I'll just say that especially with younger generations, there is a certain percentage (I said percentage, not all) of black men who do not value or respect black women. If you go on YouTube, you'll see dozens and dozens of black men who do videos that degrade black women and rip them apart. Not that I care to get into the "family dirt," but I've seen no other race or ethnicity of man get on YouTube and debase the women in their own ethnic group.
> Perfect example: Nick Cannon just got in trouble for making anti-Semitic statements on a radio show. Many people don't realize that not too long ago, Nick Cannon made statements demeaning black women, and he called non-black women "the prize."
> And if any black women in this thread care to challenge me on this, go ahead.
> 
> As far as all races being capable of "discrimination," I never said they weren't. I said that only groups in power can practice "racism." Racism is different from discrimination or prejudice.


In defense of American black men (and I am neither a POC nor American so I am aware I have no authority whatsoever on the matter), you don’t deprive whole generations of men of the right to fatherhood, of the simple qualities of being a husband, a brother, and even an adult son, of every single meaningful relationship to women, without it having far reaching consequences. My perception  (also having lived for a while in the, very segregated, American capital city) is that Americans have never dealt with slavery, never really processed the horror and its implications, in a similar way that, say, Germany has dealt with the experience of anti-semitism (the same can be say of countries like Brasil). In that sense I agree, that the black American experience is different from other forms of racism.
This is an interesting thread and I am learning a lot.


----------



## chicinthecity777

Wow! This thread does move really fast! 

Just want to post about the "oriental" in the UK. I want to be sure so I double checked and triple checked by asking friends and family and google! Well turns out it's not as cut and dry as I thought! The views are very polarised! Some say it doesn't have a negative connotation some say it does. Some say it doesn't in the past but it does now and vise versa. So it could really go either way. To avoid any doubt, it's best to use "far east" or "east Asia". Please note "Asian" in itself in the UK does generally referring to people from Indian Ocean sub-continent countries.


----------



## dooneybaby

TraceySH said:


> I was answering the question of “who has more power in this world” and my opinion is the wealthiest people do. Just my opinion, and I’ll stick to it.


Money is not what gives a person power. A person does not have power unless other people GIVE them power.


----------



## dooneybaby

doni said:


> In defense of American black men (and I am neither a POC nor American so I am aware I have no authority whatsoever on the matter), you don’t deprive whole generations of men of the right to fatherhood, of the simple qualities of being a husband, a brother, and even an adult son, of every single meaningful relationship to women, without it having far reaching consequences. My perception  (also having lived for a while in the, very segregated, American capital city) is that Americans have never dealt with slavery, never really processed the horror and its implications, in a similar way that, say, Germany has dealt with the experience of anti-semitism (the same can be say of countries like Brasil). In that sense I agree, that the black American experience is different from other forms of racism.
> This is an interesting thread and I am learning a lot.


You are absolutely CORRECT.
Generations of racism and oppression have had far-reaching  consequences for the collective of black men in America.  And I thank you for your insight. There are only so many times a person can be beaten down generation  after generation before it destroys one's  self worth. The problem is that the collective of black women are the ones  who are on the receiving end  of that damage - in the form of a high percentage of black women who are raising their children without the fathers and the inability to build wealth.


----------



## dooneybaby

sdkitty said:


> no one on the PF posted anything negative about her mom - unless you think it was inflammatory to say maybe she knew Marianne Williamson


If I have failed to clarify the sources I have used for my statements  then I apologize. My references have been various new stories and social media in general, not necessarily TPF. I'll try to be clearer in the future.


----------



## Christina48576

lalame said:


> But back to the original topic, I have to wonder if racism or classicism will ever be "out of fashion." It seems like fashion at its core is partly defined by what's un-fashionable, which marginalizes people who can't afford to consume at the scale it takes to be and remain fashionable or people who are outside the prevailing standard of beauty. And I'm talking strictly about capital F "Fashion" here... style is another matter that is more ********ic.



it is such an interesting question. I agree there is always an ‘in’ snd ‘out,’ which is inherently exclusionary.  Fashion, along with being an art, is an industry. So people are looking to make money. I think public pressure on companies that perpetuate the systematically racist power structures is super important. Big and small brands often steal motifs, styles, or techniques from marginalized groups without acknowledgement or compensation. So these cultures are ‘in’ but only when appropriated by white-dominated brands. There needs to be a huge shift in thinking and in the publications that cover these brands.

Diet Prada does a good job of keeping track of these kinds of things. I also think Robin Givhan at the Washington Post and Vanessa Friedman at the NY Times do a good job as well.


----------



## limom

Did you all read Vanessa Friedman today?
The only original nominee is Telfar.
Queens is in the house  








						American Fashion Nominates the Designers of the Year. They Really Make You Think. (Published 2020)
					

But not in a good way. The Oscars of fashion reflect exactly what the industry needs to change.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## QuelleFromage

Megs said:


> The forum is large and because of the size, it makes moderating at times hard in the way that some posts will get missed, or how one moderator will handle one situation isn't how another will handle it.
> 
> As I said, please please always PM me directly if you see something a miss and want me to check it out. How our moderation system works is we get flagged on a report, but we can also mark something as handled (say there was spam deleted, the moderator can delete the spam, ban the poster, and mark it as resolved). This system makes some posts slip thru the cracks for me.
> 
> I promise to check my PMs, check all reports, and handle things in a way that not only follows our TOS but also makes tPF a safe space for all. There will be mistakes, but that's why I'm asking you to reach out to me directly if you need anything ever!


Thank you, @Megs . I know this is a huge undertaking and I certainly don't mean to imply that tPF as a brand won't "walk the walk". I have far more faith in you and your team than I do in 99% of the brands that posted black squares on Instagram.

I guess....I am just hoping for people to think a bit more on how something that is "nothing" to them is crushing to someone from another background. (I was going to post an example, but I don't want to sidetrack a more substantive discussion.)


----------



## QuelleFromage

chicinthecity777 said:


> Wow! This thread does move really fast!
> 
> Just want to post about the "oriental" in the UK. I want to be sure so I double checked and triple checked by asking friends and family and google! Well turns out it's not as cut and dry as I thought! The views are very polarised! Some say it doesn't have a negative connotation some say it does. Some say it doesn't in the past but it does now and vise versa. So it could really go either way. To avoid any doubt, it's best to use "far east" or "east Asia". Please note "Asian" in itself in the UK does generally referring to people from Indian Ocean sub-continent countries.


I'm shocked by this because in the US it's beyond offensive, at least in the Chinese, Japanese, and Thai communities which are where I have family.


----------



## QuelleFromage

So, why I have doubts tPF forum members will make any major shift.
I took a look back to a particular exchange that I still recall vividly. Here is a very typical response to a concern about racism  (from a mod no less).

_Me: Sorry to be OT for a second, but as a non-scarfie, there's a scarf with this name? It's considered fairly offensive.

Mod: Yup. Completely OT. :back2topic: please._

Let me clarify that the name of this particular Hermès scarf, and y'all know I love me some Hermès, is not actually "fairly" offensive. It's a slur to Native Americans in both French and English.The scarf's 20 years old and like many things from another generation the name has not held up well.  I'm being gentle in my phrasing in the post I quote above, because I am on what I consider a friendly forum and I'm just really surprised and super taken aback because I love the brand. Note how my concern is 1000% dismissed, brushed off, not one iota of recognition that it's distressing, off-topic or no.

I checked my response with a couple people, including a relative who is recognizably Native in skin color and features, and with a French/American friend who majored in cultural studies. My relative burst into tears. My friend confirmed there was no way to make the phrase OK. I pretty much stopped coming to tPF for a while.

This is a mild, mild, mild occurrence and there's been much worse, but the tone of the responses I have seen has just been that. Dismissive. Silencing.


----------



## TraceySH

dooneybaby said:


> Money is not what gives a person power. A person does not have power unless other people GIVE them power.


I disagree. And there is no harm in us disagreeing! There are many things on this thread I agree with, and many I don’t. You’re not here to change my mind, and I am not here to change yours. The beauty of it all is that we have a voice and are free to use it.


----------



## opensesame

Winter’sJoy said:


> I just want to drop this concerning the word racism. I also want to highlight this excerpt:
> 
> 
> On 28 May, Ms Mitchum emailed Merriam-Webster to point out that racism is "both prejudice combined with social and institutional power. It is a system of advantage based on skin colour".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice



The change in the definition will be enlightening. It certainly changes my perception of racism. I do hope with the increase of immigration and globalization, such thing will be in further decline.


----------



## opensesame

QuelleFromage said:


> I'm shocked by this because in the US it's beyond offensive, at least in the Chinese, Japanese, and Thai communities which are where I have family.



It’s crazy, but in Japan, the term “oriental“ isn’t usually a negative term. There are Japanese companies named Oriental XXX. So, I was actually pretty shocked when I moved to the states.


----------



## QuelleFromage

opensesame said:


> It’s crazy, but in Japan, the term “oriental“ isn’t usually a negative term. There are Japanese companies named Oriental XXX. So, I was actually pretty shocked when I moved to the states.


"Oriental" isn't necessarily offensive if it's not applied to people.


----------



## doni

QuelleFromage said:


> "Oriental" isn't necessarily offensive if it's not applied to people.


but the fact that it is offensive in the US shouldn’t necessarily translate into it being offensive everywhere else or? Given it is neutral as to its intrinsic meaning, just like ‘negro’ is not offensive in Spanish speaking countries.


----------



## Megs

880 said:


> IMO there are two sides to this, and both have a right to be expressed, and reasonable people can do that in a civil fashion.
> 
> If I recall, the issue was raised and answered a number of pages back. I like and respect BBC, notorious pink, and I believe she mentioned that she felt the pics singled her and others out in a way that was not positive. (I know if I were in her place, I would agree with her and feel extremely uncomfortable as none of the contirbutors did anything wrong. They’ve all written articles that TPfers value and enjoy.
> 
> But there is another, equally valid viewpoint, if you look at what was stated in the original post, it was plainly stated there are no POC in the group of contributors. Megs already answered why this was, but the simple fact that there are none (though there was no ill intent, and Megs informed us, she has actually been trying to get a more diverse group of authors). As a detour, yes, we can all agree thta Chanel was a likely Nazi collaborator. We’re not flaming anyone for loivng Chanel (me included), and Swanky went so far as to comment, there would be no TPF if we excluded the guilty fashion houses. This thread is just bringing out the f@tc that racism is so engrained, it permeates all of the stuff all of us love.
> 
> I think it’s uncomfortable for anyone to be put on the spot, but the point of this thread is that fashion historically is actually (intentionally or not) racist. There was a divergence for a number of pages Because of some of the posters (me included) conflating (systemic) racism with prejudice. Some posters (like me) thought that the thread was enriched by the sheer variety of experiences, others felt it would be better served to separate.
> 
> This topic is not meant to be easy or feel good. . . When I have enough of it, I go to other areas of the thread. I don’t say that a certain type of post that makes me squirm  doesn’t belong. IMO, even if we disagree or have different political views or whatever, it doesn’t mean that one view can displace another on TPF.
> 
> what I think we all should do is try to give each other the benefit of the doubt. I truly don’t believe that anyone here means to deliberately hurt another TPFer and sometimes written words can come across as harsher than spoken ones.



Clarifying this little bit that references our writers above... that isn't all of our writers, we do have more and they are of different races, ethnicities and backgrounds.  And yes, I do plan to continue to broaden the freelancers that write pieces for us as well as the brands we cover, which we already do, but want to continue to make that a priority.

I am fine with anyone questioning me and Vlad or sharing problems they've had or would like to see fixed on PurseBlog and PurseForum. Truly! I have really found this conversation to be productive for me and it appears for others. Plus, I think it also shows that we are capable of having more serious conversations and doing so respectfully. 

I am such a big proponent of really thinking before you hit send on something you share online. It's really hard for people to know if there's any sarcasm, nuance, or the real feeling behind what you're saying. I may take something to feel like a jab at me, when the person didn't intend that at all. As much as it's great to have the ability to chat with people around the world like this, the lack of the human interaction can come into play and our words may be taken the wrong way. 

It's so important to be able to ask people to clarify or to reexplain yourself, especially online! I think this thread, while not exactly on topic of where it began, has been one that many have found to be a great way for members to chat about matters that are far deeper than other topics on the forum, and that's important.


----------



## papertiger

QuelleFromage said:


> "Oriental" isn't necessarily offensive if it's not applied to people.



That depends (again) on who you talk to and which definition you subscribe to. Orientalism and exoticism are founded on a Western perspective not specifically US. Again this clashes with the more essentialist colorism (based from the terms from Walker 1983) = racism view definition. But then again, it's not solely a US based theory. In terms of academia, US theory is often a 'colonist' of minds.


----------



## rutabaga

QuelleFromage said:


> "Oriental" isn't necessarily offensive if it's not applied to people.



I've always used the rule that oriental is used to describe things, not people. But I've seen less "things" being described as oriental nowadays and more "Asian" or "mandarin" (asian chicken salad vs. oriental chicken salad, for example).

One thing that's bothered me for quite some time is the shoe brand Chinese Laundry. It's true that most of the laundromats out west were owned by Chinese immigrants during the gold rush days but why is a shoe company founded in 1981 by non-Asians named this?!


----------



## opensesame

doni said:


> but the fact that it is offensive in the US shouldn’t necessarily translate into it being offensive everywhere else or? Given it is neutral as to its intrinsic meaning, just like ‘negro’ is not offensive in Spanish speaking countries.



I just learned that “oriental,” is not offensive if it’s not applied to people. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever heard it used on people. I’m guessing that n term purely indicates color and shouldn’t be used to describe a person even in Spanish speaking countries?


----------



## doni

opensesame said:


> I just learned that “oriental,” is not offensive if it’s not applied to people. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever heard it used on people. I’m guessing that n term purely indicates color and shouldn’t be used to describe a person even in Spanish speaking countries?


It is the word for black in Spanish and it is used to refer to people in the same way black is used in English. It does not have the connotations it has in the English speaking world (it is also pronounced differently).


----------



## dooneybaby

doni said:


> It is the word for black in Spanish and it is used to refer to people in the same way black is used in English. It does not have the connotations it has in the English speaking world (it is also pronounced differently).


When I was a kid, the term "Negro" was used in the U.S. For example, before "Black History Month" it was "Negro History Week." Then "Negro" gradually became "black," which gradually became "African American." Personally, I just prefer to be called black, not African American. 
Also, what I find interesting is that in America, Americans many times put their race or ethnicity before "American." For example: African American, Italian American, Irish American. Regardless of race or origin, most people from other countries just identify themselves by their nationality. For example, you could have someone from Canada whose family originates from India, but they still call themselves Canadian. 
Any theories as to why many Americans can't just call themselves American?


----------



## sdkitty

dooneybaby said:


> When I was a kid, the term "Negro" was used in the U.S. For example, before "Black History Month" it was "Negro History Week." Then "Negro" gradually became "black," which gradually became "African American." Personally, I just prefer to be called black, not African American.
> Also, what I find interesting is that in America, Americans many times put their race or ethnicity before "American." For example: African American, Italian American, Irish American. Regardless of race or origin, most people from other countries just identify themselves by their nationality. For example, you could have someone from Canada whose family originates from India, but they still call themselves Canadian.
> Any theories as to why many Americans can't just call themselves American?


my mother was an immigrant (from Ireland).  She was always referring to people by their country of origin (whether they were born in the US or not) - e.g., the "Polish girl" down the street.  I think for her it was just interesting as she wasn't born here.  Not sure whether that answers your question - just my experience.


----------



## acrowcounted

dooneybaby said:


> When I was a kid, the term "Negro" was used in the U.S. For example, before "Black History Month" it was "Negro History Week." Then "Negro" gradually became "black," which gradually became "African American." Personally, I just prefer to be called black, not African American.
> Also, what I find interesting is that in America, Americans many times put their race or ethnicity before "American." For example: African American, Italian American, Irish American. Regardless of race or origin, most people from other countries just identify themselves by their nationality. For example, you could have someone from Canada whose family originates from India, but they still call themselves Canadian.
> Any theories as to why many Americans can't just call themselves American?


I don’t think it’s “can’t” I think it’s pride in their heritage.


----------



## papertiger

acrowcounted said:


> I don’t think it’s “can’t” I think it’s pride in their heritage.



I think it may a signifier in all sorts of ways. It is a source of fascination for many around the World.

Apparently there are some inside demarcations too. My friend, with 4 Italian/Italian-American grandparents and Italian last name, and who always thought of herself as an 'Italian-American' was told by by her Italian-American friend that she wasn't a _real_ Italian-American because she didn't grow-up in an Italian American neighbourhood. Thereby, her heritage wasn't enough because culturally she didn't display enough explicit signs of living/behaving like an Italian-American. My friend was both outraged but found it laughable that he was so serious.

This is quite similar with the arguments around what being 'working class' means in Britain (class is everything here). It is _both_ an inherited identity and a descriptive phrase that marks a shared culture (except when it doesn't). To go to university, or even aspire to, move away from family, buy things with cards and not cash, use words their parents do/did not etc is seen as betraying your (working) class roots 'you think you're too good for us'. In the UK immigrants don't have a class that's part of that system, don't know the rules and despised even more for it.


----------



## minnnea

dooneybaby said:


> When I was a kid, the term "Negro" was used in the U.S. For example, before "Black History Month" it was "Negro History Week." Then "Negro" gradually became "black," which gradually became "African American." Personally, I just prefer to be called black, not African American.
> Also, what I find interesting is that in America, Americans many times put their race or ethnicity before "American." For example: African American, Italian American, Irish American. Regardless of race or origin, most people from other countries just identify themselves by their nationality. For example, you could have someone from Canada whose family originates from India, but they still call themselves Canadian.
> Any theories as to why many Americans can't just call themselves American?



I am not american so I am a bit of an outsider to answer this but for an outsider it seems that 1) for many, especially after wars and even today it is a pride thing to be american. Many came to US to find a better life.  2) as america is build of people around the globe eg. there are many italians that formed a community so being italian was a big part of their identity.

For me it seems that emigrated finns that live in numbers in the US maybe in a Finnish community tend to call themselves American Finns. There are lots of Finns in Sweden and they call themselves Sweden Finns. I am maybe making non existent paralels... But what I mean is that you are a significant minority in a country and or have a community from your ”origins”


----------



## Vanilla Bean

^ That's a good explanation. Another example - the Scots Irish. People from Scotland who wound up making their home in Ireland.

If you still have a strong connection to your origins, it may be important to you to highlight that. Otherwise, if you live in the United States, you're an American, no matter your ancestry or skin color.


----------



## QuelleFromage

papertiger said:


> That depends (again) on who you talk to and which definition you subscribe to. Orientalism and exoticism are founded on a Western perspective not specifically US. Again this clashes with the more essentialist colorism (based from the terms from Walker 1983) = racism view definition. But then again, it's not solely a US based theory. In terms of academia, US theory is often a 'colonist' of minds.


I agree with you and I wouldn't use the term. But one poster was pointing out that Asian people do use the word....I was clumsily trying to make the point that using a word in a company name is not the same as calling someone that word.


----------



## lalame

The word Oriental, while I don't think it's technically offensive when describing objects... is still a bit weird to me to see. It seems like an offensive term at worst and an outdated one at best. We don't call it "the orient" anymore so when I see things described as "oriental" it conjures up an image of a very specific type of item, belonging to a certain era - not a modern reference. Like Chinoiserie.

WRT asian countries using the term "oriental," I think that's a little different... it's an inherited word from colonialism and usually markets a product to the west or the company has old roots going back to that era and simply never changed their name (which is fine). Perhaps it's like the N word, where definitely not acceptable for anyone who isn't black to use that and even in the black community there are different views. But no one would accuse a black person of being racist while using the N word.


----------



## opensesame

QuelleFromage said:


> I agree with you and I wouldn't use the term. But one poster was pointing out that Asian people do use the word....I was clumsily trying to make the point that using a word in a company name is not the same as calling someone that word.



I grew up in Japan and I personally associate the term to culture and geography anything east of Turkey. Come to think of it, I’ve never heard of the term used on a person, and I do get the difference now.


----------



## minnnea

opensesame said:


> I grew up in Japan and I personally associate the term to culture and geography anything east of Turkey. Come to think of it, I’ve never heard of the term used on a person, and I do get the difference now.


 Very same. In my native oriental is actually ’from an eastern country’ and I think that refers to anything east of Europe Russia excluded. However oriental has a exotic tone to it and is mostly used in historical/cultural context or food.


----------



## keodi

dooneybaby said:


> When I was a kid, the term "Negro" was used in the U.S. For example, before "Black History Month" it was "Negro History Week." Then "Negro" gradually became "black," which gradually became "African American." Personally, *I just prefer to be called black, not African American.*
> Also, what I find interesting is that in America, Americans many times put their race or ethnicity before "American." For example: African American, Italian American, Irish American. Regardless of race or origin, most people from other countries just identify themselves by their nationality. For example, you could have someone from Canada whose family originates from India, but they still call themselves Canadian.
> Any theories as to why many Americans can't just call themselves American?


Same, as a west Indian immigrant, I prefer to be called black.


----------



## lalame

dooneybaby said:


> When I was a kid, the term "Negro" was used in the U.S. For example, before "Black History Month" it was "Negro History Week." Then "Negro" gradually became "black," which gradually became "African American." Personally, I just prefer to be called black, not African American.
> Also, what I find interesting is that in America, Americans many times put their race or ethnicity before "American." For example: African American, Italian American, Irish American. Regardless of race or origin, most people from other countries just identify themselves by their nationality. For example, you could have someone from Canada whose family originates from India, but they still call themselves Canadian.
> Any theories as to why many Americans can't just call themselves American?



It's not either/or... it's both. You would call yourself both an American and a black person. One is about nationality and the other one is about ethnicity or heritage. It's a little different for black people because when you say you're black in the US, people assume you're an American who is black. If I tell people I'm for example Korean, it's not entirely clear whether I'm a Korean national who's visiting or expat or whether I'm an American who is Korean.


----------



## Chanbal

I have decided to post here to express my solidarity with all the members that have suffered forms of discrimination. Our tolerance towards racism must be zero.

I was surprised by some of the comments in this thread, I thought (perhaps wrongly) that one of the beauties of TPF is that we can all come together and talk about different subjects, and unless disclosed, we have no idea about eye, hair or skin colors, body shapes, ages, etc. All those physical differences have been virtually irrelevant to finding affinities between members, at least for me. I have to say that TPF has been a lifesaver during this terrible time of COVID-19. A tiny little virus with the power of exposing the fragility of humankind.

Ignorance propagates racism, and education is one of the best weapons to fight against it. Despite our many limitations, we humans are capable of great kindness. We can’t change history, but I believe that we can all contribute to a better world for the Human Race. It is time to stop putting people in little boxes based on their physical features. Having said that, I wish you all a safe and wonderful evening.


----------



## opensesame

dooneybaby said:


> "Generally, people treat their own race better."
> Oh, you think so, huh?
> As I said before, the black American experience is very different from just about any other experience. Without getting too deep into the topic, I'll just say that especially with younger generations, there is a certain percentage (I said percentage, not all) of black men who do not value or respect black women. If you go on YouTube, you'll see dozens and dozens of black men who do videos that degrade black women and rip them apart. Not that I care to get into the "family dirt," but I've seen no other race or ethnicity of man get on YouTube and debase the women in their own ethnic group.
> Perfect example: Nick Cannon just got in trouble for making anti-Semitic statements on a radio show. Many people don't realize that not too long ago, Nick Cannon made statements demeaning black women, and he called non-black women "the prize."
> And if any black women in this thread care to challenge me on this, go ahead.
> 
> As far as all races being capable of "discrimination," I never said they weren't. I said that only groups in power can practice "racism." Racism is different from discrimination or prejudice.



I never meant to attack or irritate you. Based on what I’ve learned and seen, people do tend to form a sense to trust better with their own race. For example, race-matched physician typically leads to not only higher satisfaction in patient but also better outcome. I personally don’t care about race of the patient or physician, but there is a general pattern.


----------



## 880

opensesame said:


> I never meant to attack or irritate you. Based on what I’ve learned and seen, people do tend to form a sense to trust better with their own race. For example, race-matched physician typically leads to not only higher satisfaction in patient but also better outcome. I personally don’t care about race of the patient or physician, but there is a general pattern.


It’s interesting how different peoples experiences are opensesame! For me, I find trust is easier outside my own, bc although I was not born in the US, I grew up and was educated in the US away from most extended family etc. so going ‘home’ and shared experiences like that are outside the norm.  In fact, when I go to the home country, even bf I open my mouth, people treat me as a foreigner and I feel foreign.


----------



## opensesame

880 said:


> It’s interesting how different peoples experiences are opensesame! For me, I find trust is easier outside my own, bc although I was not born in the US, I grew up and was educated in the US away from most extended family etc. so going ‘home’ and shared experiences like that are outside the norm.  In fact, when I go to the home country, even bf I open my mouth, people treat me as a foreigner and I feel foreign.



I was also born outside of the US, spent part of my childhood in multiple countries and received second/higher education in the US. To be honest, I feel foreign everywhere, but at the same time, I feel comfortable as is. On the positive side, I think we both got more exposure to different cultures and perspectives. I just hope in near future, race will become a defunct concept.


----------



## chicinthecity777

keodi said:


> Same, as a west Indian immigrant, I prefer to be called black.


Here in the UK, it's still mostly called "black" and it's a neutral term with no negative connotations.


----------



## chicinthecity777

More so to the point I was trying to make when I first started this discussion - words, objects etc themselves are not necessarily racists or offensive but it's all about the context! How they are used, who they are targeting all matters! That's when people should learn how and what is offensive.


----------



## Mimmy

24HRglam said:


> I think this is the appropriate thread to ask if anyone has read this article about the CFDA nominations: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/style/cfda-nominations.html





limom said:


> Did you all read Vanessa Friedman today?
> The only original nominee is Telfar.
> Queens is in the house
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Fashion Nominates the Designers of the Year. They Really Make You Think. (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> But not in a good way. The Oscars of fashion reflect exactly what the industry needs to change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


This article is very relevant to this thread. I had to read it more than once and give it some thought. I like fashion, read about it and buy it but if I am honest the designers represented in my closet do not represent much diversity. I am by no means a fashion insider though and I know that others on TPF are much more knowledgable than I am. I also have high street clothing that I really like but I stopped buying from companies that I am aware of that have been called out for human rights violations.

The reason I needed to think about this is it would have been easy to initially just agree that there is not much diversity in this group and I do agree with that. When I cannot readily name people who I think should have been nominated to create diversity therein lies the problem. Emerging designers of any color often lack the financial backing and some may not have designs that appeal to a broad demographic. That BIPOC or anyone without a significant credit history find it difficult to get financial backing/loans is an obstacle too.

I identify as Asian and American. I strongly agree that there is a lack of diversity in certain industries. I do not believe however that because this is the time that people are becoming vocal that there is a problem and it is trending that we should hand out token awards to POC. IMO this is harmful as one hope is that the award pacifies and as a result silences people again, at least for the moment. 

I was interested in the emerging designers list and now have them on my radar.

So, it’s complicated. A lot of the change would have to come from inside the industry itself. I have a soft spot for Marc Jacobs. I do not find him as innovative currently but since he is a nominee and has been posting a lot on his Instagram in support of BLM could he mentor an emerging designer of color? I think that at least some of this thread is about less talk, more action if we are serious about making change.


----------



## dooneybaby

QuelleFromage said:


> So, why I have doubts tPF forum members will make any major shift.
> I took a look back to a particular exchange that I still recall vividly. Here is a very typical response to a concern about racism  (from a mod no less).
> 
> _Me: Sorry to be OT for a second, but as a non-scarfie, there's a scarf with this name? It's considered fairly offensive.
> 
> Mod: Yup. Completely OT. :back2topic: please._
> 
> Let me clarify that the name of this particular Hermès scarf, and y'all know I love me some Hermès, is not actually "fairly" offensive. It's a slur to Native Americans in both French and English.The scarf's 20 years old and like many things from another generation the name has not held up well.  I'm being gentle in my phrasing in the post I quote above, because I am on what I consider a friendly forum and I'm just really surprised and super taken aback because I love the brand. Note how my concern is 1000% dismissed, brushed off, not one iota of recognition that it's distressing, off-topic or no.
> 
> I checked my response with a couple people, including a relative who is recognizably Native in skin color and features, and with a French/American friend who majored in cultural studies. My relative burst into tears. My friend confirmed there was no way to make the phrase OK. I pretty much stopped coming to tPF for a while.
> 
> This is a mild, mild, mild occurrence and there's been much worse, but the tone of the responses I have seen has just been that. Dismissive. Silencing.


What was the name of the scarf?


----------



## dooneybaby

opensesame said:


> I never meant to attack or irritate you. Based on what I’ve learned and seen, people do tend to form a sense to trust better with their own race. For example, race-matched physician typically leads to not only higher satisfaction in patient but also better outcome. I personally don’t care about race of the patient or physician, but there is a general pattern.


I didn't feel attacked and I certainly wasn't irritated. I enjoy a good, passionate discussion, and nothing is off the table. I just believe in being open and honest and not tip-toeing around anyone. 
Unless you are black, there's a good chance you wouldn't be familiar with the conflict within the black community. I even hate to use the term "black community," because we are not a community. We live drastically different and separate lives just as white people do based on socioeconomic levels. I couldn't begin to tell you what life is like in the "hood." I've always lived an economically privileged life in the suburbs. But I CAN tell you what it's like to live that economically privileged life while never being accepted and being racially taunted because growing up I was only the second black kid in the elementary school. My older sister was the first.
I'm will to answer anything if the person asking is willing to learn.


----------



## dooneybaby

Chanbal said:


> I have decided to post here to express my solidarity with all the members that have suffered forms of discrimination. Our tolerance towards racism must be zero.
> 
> I was surprised by some of the comments in this thread, I thought (perhaps wrongly) that one of the beauties of TPF is that we can all come together and talk about different subjects, and unless disclosed, we have no idea about eye, hair or skin colors, body shapes, ages, etc. All those physical differences have been virtually irrelevant to finding affinities between members, at least for me. I have to say that TPF has been a lifesaver during this terrible time of COVID-19. A tiny little virus with the power of exposing the fragility of humankind.
> 
> Ignorance propagates racism, and education is one of the best weapons to fight against it. Despite our many limitations, we humans are capable of great kindness. We can’t change history, but I believe that we can all contribute to a better world for the Human Race. It is time to stop putting people in little boxes based on their physical features. Having said that, I wish you all a safe and wonderful evening.


As a black woman in her 50s, I'm not shocked by the comments I've read in this thread. As a matter of fact, the comments I've read are quite mild, and some of them just come from ignorance. And by ignorance, I mean not knowing, not stupidity. 
If you want to see "shocking," read the YouTube comments under some videos." I've actually had some people say to me:
1. Name one thing a black person has contributed to the United States. 
2. Most black people ARE criminals.
3. Thank goodness I live in a community where there are no blacks around.
4. I'm not a bigot. Okay, maybe my white ancestors DID kick your black ancestors a$$es. So what? I didn't have anything to do with it.
5. White people should only protect white people, and black people can protect black people.

Try to ingest THAT!


----------



## V0N1B2

dooneybaby said:


> What was the name of the scarf?


I think it was probably Mythologies Des Hommes Rouges by Kermit Oliver.


----------



## dooneybaby

QuelleFromage said:


> So, why I have doubts tPF forum members will make any major shift.
> I took a look back to a particular exchange that I still recall vividly. Here is a very typical response to a concern about racism  (from a mod no less).
> 
> _Me: Sorry to be OT for a second, but as a non-scarfie, there's a scarf with this name? It's considered fairly offensive.
> 
> Mod: Yup. Completely OT. :back2topic: please._
> 
> Let me clarify that the name of this particular Hermès scarf, and y'all know I love me some Hermès, is not actually "fairly" offensive. It's a slur to Native Americans in both French and English.The scarf's 20 years old and like many things from another generation the name has not held up well.  I'm being gentle in my phrasing in the post I quote above, because I am on what I consider a friendly forum and I'm just really surprised and super taken aback because I love the brand. Note how my concern is 1000% dismissed, brushed off, not one iota of recognition that it's distressing, off-topic or no.
> 
> I checked my response with a couple people, including a relative who is recognizably Native in skin color and features, and with a French/American friend who majored in cultural studies. My relative burst into tears. My friend confirmed there was no way to make the phrase OK. I pretty much stopped coming to tPF for a while.
> 
> This is a mild, mild, mild occurrence and there's been much worse, but the tone of the responses I have seen has just been that. Dismissive. Silencing.


I love me some Hermes scarves too. Although I'm only at 33 silkies. 
Nowhere near as impressive as many TPFers.
But I would LOVE to ask Kermit Oliver - the only black American man who designs for Hermes - what he thinks now about the scarf that celebrates Christopher Columbus?


	

		
			
		

		
	
.


----------



## sdkitty

opensesame said:


> I never meant to attack or irritate you. Based on what I’ve learned and seen, people do tend to form a sense to trust better with their own race. For example, race-matched physician typically leads to not only higher satisfaction in patient but also better outcome. I personally don’t care about race of the patient or physician, but there is a general pattern.


I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one.  I just went online and selected a new physician for my DH.  He wanted a male.  The one I picked is brown and younger.  Has very high ratings from patients.  We could have selected an older white male.  but his satisfaction rates weren't as high and I figured he could be retiring soon.
I've worked in a medical group.  When it comes to "regular" care (not something very serious like cancer) I think personality and the way a provider interacts with patients is most important.
I had cancer and one of my physicians was a brown man (I'm white).  Didn't matter a bit to me.


----------



## 880

QuelleFromage said:


> I guess....I am just hoping for people to think a bit more on how something that is "nothing" to them is crushing to someone from another background. (I was going to post an example, but I don't want to sidetrack a more substantive discussion.)


When I come back to read and learn, I think about this, thank you. I find this very helpful not only on this forum, but when I respond to things IRL. Even if you feel an example might sidetrack, there are those of us who would be very interested.

Dooneybaby, I believe you were musing about a Kermit Oliver. There have been a few articles about KO that seem to indicate that he is not interested in much but his family, his private life and the four corners of the canvas. there are artists whose work conveys a political POV personal to that artist; I would surmise he is not one of them. I have of course no actual knowledge of this topic (but I am a visual artist myself). Here is an article that gives a tiny glimpse https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...o-postman-who-designs-for-herm-s-8204472.html


----------



## MCF

dooneybaby said:


> When I was a kid, the term "Negro" was used in the U.S. For example, before "Black History Month" it was "Negro History Week." Then "Negro" gradually became "black," which gradually became "African American." Personally, I just prefer to be called black, not African American.
> Also, what I find interesting is that in America, Americans many times put their race or ethnicity before "American." For example: African American, Italian American, Irish American. Regardless of race or origin, most people from other countries just identify themselves by their nationality. For example, you could have someone from Canada whose family originates from India, but they still call themselves Canadian.
> Any theories as to why many Americans can't just call themselves American?


This is a good question and I think it's probably different for every person. I'm a white American whose family has been in America long enough that we just identify as American not Irish or Scottish American. 

When I lived in the UK I worked with mostly Polish, Italian, Turkish, and Filipino people and we served mostly English people. I was constantly asked where I was from by customers. I would say America and this was a lot of times not good enough (more than you would think were quite snappy with me and demanded specifics) so I started specifying California/Southern California/north of Los Angeles. When I began working with an Italian woman who recently came to England she asked where I was from and I said California. She thought that was odd and asked why I said California and not America and did I not identify as American but as mostly Californian. I explained to her why I gave that response but it got me thinking about how each of us identify what we are and how others perceive us. In honesty I would probably identify myself as West Virginian American as my family came from there and I have a deep connection to the land and history of WV though I have never lived there, only visiting my family often. I lived in the UK for a little over 5 years and when I returned home my mom introduced me to some people as her "English daughter." That threw me for one. She said I'd been there for so long that's how she started to see me. I never once identified as English.


----------



## QuelleFromage

V0N1B2 said:


> I think it was probably Mythologies Des Hommes Rouges by Kermit Oliver.


Yes, it was.


----------



## QuelleFromage

880 said:


> When I come back to read and learn, I think about this, thank you. I find this very helpful not only on this forum, but when I respond to things IRL. Even if you feel an example might sidetrack, there are those of us who would be very interested.
> 
> Dooneybaby, I believe you were musing about a Kermit Oliver. There have been a few articles about KO that seem to indicate that he is not interested in much but his family, his private life and the four corners of the canvas. there are artists whose work conveys a political POV personal to that artist; I would surmise he is not one of them. I have of course no actual knowledge of this topic (but I am a visual artist myself). Here is an article that gives a tiny glimpse https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...o-postman-who-designs-for-herm-s-8204472.html


Thank you....I really appreciate that. I know I am learning every day.

I did come back and post an example in the hopes it might help. Yes, this was that particular Kermit Oliver scarf. As with @dooneybaby 's question about Columbus....not all designs stand the test of time. I am not sure the designer always names the scarf, either. With regard to MdesHR, in addition, Europeans view cultural appropriation MUCH differently than Americans. 

I appreciate you all for sharing so much knowledge.


----------



## RT1

dooneybaby said:


> I didn't feel attacked and I certainly wasn't irritated. I enjoy a good, passionate discussion, and nothing is off the table. I just believe in being open and honest and not tip-toeing around anyone.
> Unless you are black, there's a good chance you wouldn't be familiar with the conflict within the black community. I even hate to use the term "black community," because we are not a community. We live drastically different and separate lives just as white people do based on socioeconomic levels. I couldn't begin to tell you what life is like in the "hood." I've always lived an economically privileged life in the suburbs. But I CAN tell you what it's like to live that economically privileged life while never being accepted and being racially taunted because growing up I was only the second black kid in the elementary school. My older sister was the first.
> I'm will to answer anything if the person asking is willing to learn.



First, I'm older so I can relate to the discrimination faced during segregation.

I can remember living during that time and had many black friends and we used to go swimming together in creeks and ponds because we could not swim together in the public pools.    Segregation, remember!

I was probably only one of a handful of white kids that had absolutely no problems when they integrated the schools.   I already had many black friends and now we could hang together in the same school.

I spent the night at my black friend's houses and they spent the night at my house.
The only problems I had were justifying my friendships to my white friends who just didn't get it!

I was brought up to have respect for elders and others, regardless of race, religion, etc.

I still feel that we need to respect our fellow Americans regardless or race, religion, or political views.


----------



## dooneybaby

sdkitty said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one.  I just went online and selected a new physician for my DH.  He wanted a male.  The one I picked is brown and younger.  Has very high ratings from patients.  We could have selected an older white male.  but his satisfaction rates weren't as high and I figured he could be retiring soon.
> I've worked in a medical group.  When it comes to "regular" care (not something very serious like cancer) I think personality and the way a provider interacts with patients is most important.
> I had cancer and one of my physicians was a brown man (I'm white).  Didn't matter a bit to me.


You have to remember that just because you feel or think a certain way and you're open-minded, doesn't mean that everyone is. A lot of people DO feel more comfortable being treated by someone who looks like them.
There are many women, in general, who won't go to a male gynecologist. Does a man REALLY know what period pain feels like?

And let's look at the flipside - how doctors treat their patients based on color. That is a huge problem in the United States. There have been studies done that find that black people receive less pain management because there's a subconscious presumption that they have a higher tolerance for pain.
Remember the Tuskegee syphilis study, where black men diagnosed with the STD were not treated so that doctors could study how syphilis affected the body? Dozens and dozens of black men were allowed to pass the STD to their wives, which affected their children, and the men were allowed to eventually die. The study only stopped in the early 1970s.

I'll share with you a personal story: I used to have an extremely high metabolism and there were nodules on my thyroid. I went to an endocrinologist at a hospital in Washington, D.C., where the majority of the patients are black. The doctor (white) did the appropriate tests, but concluded that I should have my thyroid removed. I went to get a second opinion from an endocrinologist near my workplace that was considered one of the top 5 in the U.S. He didn't take insurance and his office visits were $200 (that was his rate 15 years ago). Before my appointment, the first endocrinologist phoned me to ask me whether I had made a decision to have surgery. I told him I was getting a second opinion and gave him the doctor's name. There was dead silence. He was shocked - probably that I had researched the top doctors (duh I'm a news editor), and could afford $200 a visit.) Then he said "Oh, very, good. Wonderful."
That's the last time I heard from him. But it wasn't the last time he heard from my new doctor, who told me that I didn't require removal of my thyroid, just a radioactive iodine pill to shed the nodules because they were semi-autonomous, not cancerous. And he added that the other doctor (he had known for a long time) "should have known better." 
He phoned up the other doctor and gave him a good tongue lashing. That doctor retired less than a year later.


----------



## sdkitty

dooneybaby said:


> You have to remember that just because you feel or think a certain way and you're open-minded, doesn't mean that everyone is. A lot of people DO feel more comfortable being treated by someone who looks like them.
> There are many women, in general, who won't go to a male gynecologist. Does a man REALLY know what period pain feels like?
> 
> And let's look at the flipside - how doctors treat their patients based on color. That is a huge problem in the United States. There have been studies done that find that black people receive less pain management because there's a subconscious presumption that they have a higher tolerance for pain.
> Remember the Tuskegee syphilis study, where black men diagnosed with the STD were not treated so that doctors could study how syphilis affected the body? Dozens and dozens of black men were allowed to pass the STD to their wives, which affected their children, and the men were allowed to eventually die. The study only stopped in the early 1970s.
> 
> I'll share with you a personal story: I used to have an extremely high metabolism and there were nodules on my thyroid. I went to an endocrinologist at a hospital in Washington, D.C., where the majority of the patients are black. The doctor (white) did the appropriate tests, but concluded that I should have my thyroid removed. I went to get a second opinion from an endocrinologist near my workplace that was considered one of the top 5 in the U.S. He didn't take insurance and his office visits were $200 (that was his rate 15 years ago). Before my appointment, the first endocrinologist phoned me to ask me whether I had made a decision to have surgery. I told him I was getting a second opinion and gave him the doctor's name. There was dead silence. He was shocked - probably that I had researched the top doctors (duh I'm a news editor), and could afford $200 a visit.) Then he said "Oh, very, good. Wonderful."
> That's the last time I heard from him. But it wasn't the last time he heard from my new doctor, who told me that I didn't require removal of my thyroid, just a radioactive iodine pill to shed the nodules because they were semi-autonomous, not cancerous. And he added that the other doctor (he had known for a long time) "should have known better."
> He phoned up the other doctor and gave him a good tongue lashing. That doctor retired less than a year later.


good for you for being assertive and getting the appropriate care.  and of course, as you said, you were fortunate to be able to afford it.
yes, while I don't care what color my medical providers are, I do prefer a woman for GYN.
Years ago I had a male provider.  He was very handsome (silver fox type).  When I complained about gaining weight in m 40's he poo pooed it.  that turned me off to male GYNs


----------



## sdkitty

QuelleFromage said:


> Thank you....I really appreciate that. I know I am learning every day.
> 
> I did come back and post an example in the hopes it might help. Yes, this was that particular Kermit Oliver scarf. As with @dooneybaby 's question about Columbus....not all designs stand the test of time. I am not sure the designer always names the scarf, either. With regard to MdesHR, in addition, Europeans view cultural appropriation MUCH differently than Americans.
> 
> I appreciate you all for sharing so much knowledge.


sorry if I'm dense but is there something racist about Kermit?


----------



## dooneybaby

880 said:


> When I come back to read and learn, I think about this, thank you. I find this very helpful not only on this forum, but when I respond to things IRL. Even if you feel an example might sidetrack, there are those of us who would be very interested.
> 
> Dooneybaby, I believe you were musing about a Kermit Oliver. There have been a few articles about KO that seem to indicate that he is not interested in much but his family, his private life and the four corners of the canvas. there are artists whose work conveys a political POV personal to that artist; I would surmise he is not one of them. I have of course no actual knowledge of this topic (but I am a visual artist myself). Here is an article that gives a tiny glimpse https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...o-postman-who-designs-for-herm-s-8204472.html


Actually, I didn't know that about Kermit Oliver. I actually have been collecting his scarves. There also is a tribute to him at the Museum of African American History in Washington, D.C. I'm glad you told me. I'll have to dig further. 
The only thing controversial I've ever read about him was that his son Khristian was executed in 2009 in Texas for a murder committed during a burglary. 

Not every black American is a social justice warrior. Some are more interested in their own accomplishments and sometimes even look down on other black people who aren't as fortunate. This especially is true with older generations. My own father was like this growing up. I'll always remember when at 17 years old, my violin teacher called me a "monkey." I came home and told my parents. My mom was angry (of course), but my father responded with, "Well, maybe you ARE a monkey." My father, a black man, never, ever supported black issues, not even when they affected his children.


----------



## dooneybaby

sdkitty said:


> sorry if I'm dense but is there something racist about Kermit?


Read my post. Not racist, but probably clueless and in his own little world.
Not every black person is a social justice warrior. Some are extremely conservative and highly critical of other black people. 
Do a Google search for Candace Owens.


----------



## RT1

dooneybaby said:


> You have to remember that just because you feel or think a certain way and you're open-minded, doesn't mean that everyone is. A lot of people DO feel more comfortable being treated by someone who looks like them.
> There are many women, in general, who won't go to a male gynecologist. Does a man REALLY know what period pain feels like?
> 
> *And let's look at the flipside - how doctors treat their patients based on color. That is a huge problem in the United States. There have been studies done that find that black people receive less pain management because there's a subconscious presumption that they have a higher tolerance for pain.
> Remember the Tuskegee syphilis study, where black men diagnosed with the STD were not treated so that doctors could study how syphilis affected the body? Dozens and dozens of black men were allowed to pass the STD to their wives, which affected their children, and the men were allowed to eventually die. The study only stopped in the early 1970s.*
> 
> I'll share with you a personal story: I used to have an extremely high metabolism and there were nodules on my thyroid. I went to an endocrinologist at a hospital in Washington, D.C., where the majority of the patients are black. The doctor (white) did the appropriate tests, but concluded that I should have my thyroid removed. I went to get a second opinion from an endocrinologist near my workplace that was considered one of the top 5 in the U.S. He didn't take insurance and his office visits were $200 (that was his rate 15 years ago). Before my appointment, the first endocrinologist phoned me to ask me whether I had made a decision to have surgery. I told him I was getting a second opinion and gave him the doctor's name. There was dead silence. He was shocked - probably that I had researched the top doctors (duh I'm a news editor), and could afford $200 a visit.) Then he said "Oh, very, good. Wonderful."
> That's the last time I heard from him. But it wasn't the last time he heard from my new doctor, who told me that I didn't require removal of my thyroid, just a radioactive iodine pill to shed the nodules because they were semi-autonomous, not cancerous. And he added that the other doctor (he had known for a long time) "should have known better."
> He phoned up the other doctor and gave him a good tongue lashing. That doctor retired less than a year later.



I just finished a book titled "*Doctors from Hell*" by Vivien Spitz.
She was the youngest court reporter employed by the US to report on the Nuremberg Doctor's Trials.
It contains information about experiments conducted here in America where patients were given no prior knowledge of any experimentation being done to them.
It just shows that people of any country should *NEVER* be allowed to experiment on anyone unless they have their consent and the experiments can be proven to advance medical science.


----------



## dooneybaby

RTone said:


> I just finished a book titled "*Doctors from Hell*" by Vivien Spitz.
> She was the youngest court reporter employed by the US to report on the Nuremberg Doctor's Trials.
> It contains information about experiments conducted here in America where patients were given no prior knowledge of any experimentation being done to them.
> It just shows that people of any country should *NEVER* be allowed to experiment on anyone unless they have their consent and the experiments can be proven to advance medical science.


Some people put too much trust in doctors. They don't question them and take everything they say as gospel. You ALWAYS have to be your own best advocate.


----------



## opensesame

dooneybaby said:


> I didn't feel attacked and I certainly wasn't irritated. I enjoy a good, passionate discussion, and nothing is off the table. I just believe in being open and honest and not tip-toeing around anyone.
> Unless you are black, there's a good chance you wouldn't be familiar with the conflict within the black community. I even hate to use the term "black community," because we are not a community. We live drastically different and separate lives just as white people do based on socioeconomic levels. I couldn't begin to tell you what life is like in the "hood." I've always lived an economically privileged life in the suburbs. But I CAN tell you what it's like to live that economically privileged life while never being accepted and being racially taunted because growing up I was only the second black kid in the elementary school. My older sister was the first.
> I'm will to answer anything if the person asking is willing to learn.



Thank you. I love learning and improve myself; I’d hate to be ignorant of things around me. I appreciate being able to discuss online because I don’t think I have the opportunity to talk about this in real life.


----------



## dooneybaby




----------



## dooneybaby

V0N1B2 said:


> I think it was probably Mythologies Des Hommes Rouges by Kermit Oliver.


I do have that one.


----------



## 880

sdkitty said:


> sorry if I'm dense but is there something racist about Kermit?


Im Still learning re racism, but I’ll give an attempt at an answer. He’s the only African American artist for H scarves and some of his best known work seems to pay homage to an old world, somewhat Eurocentric POV of Native Americans, Which I think is in keeping with the heritage of Hermes. I believe either Quelle Fromage or Dooneybaby pointed out that he probably had nothing to do with naming of some scarves. . . Some of which (the names) could be construed as politically incorrect. After I read a few articles (there weren’t many), I hypothesized that he may have painted  without a particular political voice. He was a very private person who worked as a postal worker in Waco Texas and as per the article cited, really preferred an insular life and didn’t seem to value politicking especially after some well publicized family tragedies.








						Scarf ace: The Waco postman who designs for Hermès
					

Kermit Oliver is considered one of the French company's most important creative assets




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## opensesame

sdkitty said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one.  I just went online and selected a new physician for my DH.  He wanted a male.  The one I picked is brown and younger.  Has very high ratings from patients.  We could have selected an older white male.  but his satisfaction rates weren't as high and I figured he could be retiring soon.
> I've worked in a medical group.  When it comes to "regular" care (not something very serious like cancer) I think personality and the way a provider interacts with patients is most important.
> I had cancer and one of my physicians was a brown man (I'm white).  Didn't matter a bit to me.



I personally don’t care either, but such studies often indicates that race-matching is effective. I am very glad you had very good experience and I hope others will too! It probably depends on language, SES, etc on both sides as well.


----------



## dooneybaby

opensesame said:


> I personally don’t care either, but such studies often indicates that race-matching is effective. I am very glad you had very good experience and I hope others will too! It probably depends on language, SES, etc on both sides as well.


Forgive me for using a "buzz term," but this is where I think it's important to educate, even though I may ruffle some feathers (but I'm speaking from experience). 
This is probably a perfect example of "white privilege." White values and concerns are the "default," so every doctor, regardless of race or ethnicity, is taught to treat issues that are prominent among white populations. 
But sometimes a person of color may have to seek out a doctor who is familiar with their ethnicity to get the proper care. For example, there's a difference between white skin and black skin. I've actually come across some white dermatologists who were not familiar with pigment issues that people of darker hues may encounter. My hair is a curl pattern that's common in black populations. When I damaged the hair follicle, the 70-something-year-old white dermatologist I saw couldn't begin to address my situation. 
A white psychiatrist may not know how to connect with a black patient who has been traumatized by experiencing racial oppression all their lives, or a Native American patient who has different experiences.  
I agree that in many cases, not only is race matching effective, but gender matching is as well. But it depends on the medical issue and how exclusive it is to the patient's ethnicity or gender.


----------



## GhstDreamer

opensesame said:


> I think Classism will never go out of fashion. Deep down, we all aspire to belong to the upper crust.


"Only in the order of things in which there will no longer be classes or class antagonism will social evolutions cease to be political revolutions."
~The Poverty of Philosophy~

https://www.fastcompany.com/90273073/why-does-luxury-fashion-hate-chinese-consumers

Here is an article in 2018 when D&G put out some very racist ads just in case anyone here have missed this back when it was first published. Not much has changed I guess (for example Lululemon's firing of their art director over his use of another artist's racist chinese artwork). D&G and Chanel ads falsely cemented the idea that Chinese people will always be uncivlized working in the rice fields wearing a straw hat. Even if that person is a CEO of a major corporation - he/she will always symbolically be tied to those ricefields. Not that there is anything wrong with being a farmer - I have extended family who are sugar cane farmers but others are in IT, teachers, marketing, etc. The point is that it is always this portrayal of Chinese people that isn't really any different than how Western entertainment also view Indigenous or First Nations people and Black people. As a race or ethnicity we are uncivilized but parts of our culture or history can be appropriated and picked apart to be used to generate money.


----------



## 880

dooneybaby said:


> Forgive me for using a "buzz term," but this is where I think it's important to educate, even though I may ruffle some feathers (but I'm speaking from experience).
> This is probably a perfect example of "white privilege." White values and concerns are the "default," so every doctor, regardless of race or ethnicity, is taught to treat issues that are prominent among white populations.
> But sometimes a person of color may have to seek out a doctor who is familiar with their ethnicity to get the proper care. For example, there's a difference between white skin and black skin. I've actually come across some white dermatologists who were not familiar with pigment issues that people of darker hues may encounter.



agree! OT, ive always thought that some issues with pigment on brown skin required a dermatologist of color, so I went to one who headed a derm forum of POC. But, ironically,  in NYC, the three different lasers I need for my issues are only available at this one place downtown NYU headed by the guy who pioneered darker skin laser. . , who is a very nice, older white Derm. So, now I have two derms.


----------



## Chanbal

dooneybaby said:


> As a black woman in her 50s, I'm not shocked by the comments I've read in this thread. As a matter of fact, the comments I've read are quite mild, and some of them just come from ignorance. And by ignorance, I mean not knowing, not stupidity.
> If you want to see "shocking," read the YouTube comments under some videos." I've actually had some people say to me:
> 1. Name one thing a black person has contributed to the United States.
> 2. Most black people ARE criminals.
> 3. Thank goodness I live in a community where there are no blacks around.
> 4. I'm not a bigot. Okay, maybe my white ancestors DID kick your black ancestors a$$es. So what? I didn't have anything to do with it.
> 5. White people should only protect white people, and black people can protect black people.
> 
> Try to ingest THAT!


History is full of atrocities done by humans, and I have no intention of minimizing any one of them. I have a huge respect for people that rise above sordid comments like the ones you have listed. I have had my shocks, frustrations, and fights, but I'm still a true believer in human kindness. I believe that each one of us can do better towards a much improved world. A big hug and a huge  to you.


----------



## opensesame

dooneybaby said:


> Forgive me for using a "buzz term," but this is where I think it's important to educate, even though I may ruffle some feathers (but I'm speaking from experience).
> This is probably a perfect example of "white privilege." White values and concerns are the "default," so every doctor, regardless of race or ethnicity, is taught to treat issues that are prominent among white populations.
> But sometimes a person of color may have to seek out a doctor who is familiar with their ethnicity to get the proper care. For example, there's a difference between white skin and black skin. I've actually come across some white dermatologists who were not familiar with pigment issues that people of darker hues may encounter. My hair is a curl pattern that's common in black populations. When I damaged the hair follicle, the 70-something-year-old white dermatologist I saw couldn't begin to address my situation.
> A white psychiatrist may not know how to connect with a black patient who has been traumatized by experiencing racial oppression all their lives, or a Native American patient who has different experiences.
> I agree that in many cases, not only is race matching effective, but gender matching is as well. But it depends on the medical issue and how exclusive it is to the patient's ethnicity or gender.



I’ve encountered something similar at a dermatologist. He was professional but seemed less enthusiastic to treat my skin (cosmetic) due to my skin tone, which is not much darker than the lightest Caucasian. To be fair, he was unfamiliar with my skin type, as most of his clients are super light. I understood his concerns because the machine setting is different according to level of pigmentation, and I suspect he wasn’t sure what’s the best level. Although he didn’t refuse service or anything, I got the message and spent my money at another derma.


----------



## opensesame

GhstDreamer said:


> "Only in the order of things in which there will no longer be classes or class antagonism will social evolutions cease to be political revolutions."
> ~The Poverty of Philosophy~
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90273073/why-does-luxury-fashion-hate-chinese-consumers
> 
> Here is an article in 2018 when D&G put out some very racist ads just in case anyone here have missed this back when it was first published. Not much has changed I guess (for example Lululemon's firing of their creative director over his use of another artist's racist chinese artwork). D&G and Chanel ads falsely cemented the idea that Chinese people will always be uncivlized working in the rice fields wearing a straw hat. Even if that person is a CEO of a major corporation - he/she will always symbolically be tied to those ricefields. Not that there is anything wrong with being a farmer - I have extended family who are sugar cane farmers but others are in IT, teachers, marketing, etc. The point is that it is always this portrayal of Chinese people that isn't really any different than how Western entertainment also view Indigenous or First Nations people and Black people. As a race or ethnicity we are uncivilized but parts of our culture or history can be appropriated and picked apart to be used to generate money.



I remember the D&G incident. It annoyed me because they were trying to make money and mock the Chinese at the same time. If I was the prime minister, I would simply throw this company out of the country and ban them forever. I vaguely remember seeing them selling sandals named “slave sandals,” or something along that line. They also had ads that looked like scene from gang rape, etc. At least they are stupid enough to be vocal and leave evidence of racism and sexism, so I know what to avoid. Needless to say I will never spend a single penny on D&G ever again. Chanel also had a strange ad showing models standing on Tatami mats with their shoes on, which is considered rude in Japan. Abercrombie at one point refused to hire not only Asian models, but Asian employees. The list is endless.


----------



## dooneybaby

Chanbal said:


> History is full of atrocities done by humans, and I have no intention of minimizing any one of them. I have a huge respect for people that rise above sordid comments like the ones you have listed. I have had my shocks, frustrations, and fights, but I'm still a true believer in human kindness. I believe that each one of us can do better towards a much improved world. A big hug and a huge  to you.


----------



## dooneybaby

GhstDreamer said:


> "Only in the order of things in which there will no longer be classes or class antagonism will social evolutions cease to be political revolutions."
> ~The Poverty of Philosophy~
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90273073/why-does-luxury-fashion-hate-chinese-consumers
> 
> Here is an article in 2018 when D&G put out some very racist ads just in case anyone here have missed this back when it was first published. Not much has changed I guess (for example Lululemon's firing of their creative director over his use of another artist's racist chinese artwork). D&G and Chanel ads falsely cemented the idea that Chinese people will always be uncivlized working in the rice fields wearing a straw hat. Even if that person is a CEO of a major corporation - he/she will always symbolically be tied to those ricefields. Not that there is anything wrong with being a farmer - I have extended family who are sugar cane farmers but others are in IT, teachers, marketing, etc. The point is that it is always this portrayal of Chinese people that isn't really any different than how Western entertainment also view Indigenous or First Nations people and Black people. As a race or ethnicity we are uncivilized but parts of our culture or history can be appropriated and picked apart to be used to generate money.


I'm hoping that what I've read in the past is not true, but I've seen many articles about why companies like Dolce & Gabana, Gucci and Prada do clearly racist things. From some of the things I've read, they are allegedly done on purpose and are planned. And I say "allegedly" because they're just accusations. 
For example Gucci allegedly felt that there were too many rappers and black people from the "hood" who were wearing their items. When Gucci came out with the "black face turtleneck," many black people boycotted the brand. That allegedly was Gucci's intention, to stop the "black folks with no class" from buying their items. "Blacks folks with class" were just collateral damage.


----------



## rutabaga

opensesame said:


> Abercrombie at one point refused to hire not only Asian models, but Asian employees. The list is endless.



Not to mention at one point they put out t-shirts with racist caricatures of Asians with straw hats and slanty eyes. They had slogans like "Two Wongs Can Make It White". What is with the white man's obsession with Chinese people and laundry? Ugh.


----------



## dooneybaby

i*bella said:


> Not to mention at one point they put out t-shirts with racist caricatures of Asians with straw hats and slanty eyes. They had slogans like "Two Wongs Can Make It White". What is with the white man's obsession with Chinese people and laundry? Ugh.


You have got to be kidding? That's down right disgusting!I don't know how I missed that. Usually I'm up on things like that. 
Everyone needs to be thanking the Black Lives Matter Movement's growth after the death of George Floyd. Before this year's protests, most people didn't give a darn. Now all of a sudden, people have something to say. 
It's about time!


----------



## Mimmy

dooneybaby said:


> You have got to be kidding? That's down right disgusting!I don't know how I missed that. Usually I'm up on things like that.
> Everyone needs to be thanking the Black Lives Matter Movement's growth after the death of George Floyd. Before this year's protests, most people didn't give a darn. Now all of a sudden, people have something to say.
> It's about time!


What’s even more disgusting is that if you Google that slogan other companies are still producing t-shirts with it.


----------



## limom

GhstDreamer said:


> "Only in the order of things in which there will no longer be classes or class antagonism will social evolutions cease to be political revolutions."
> ~The Poverty of Philosophy~
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90273073/why-does-luxury-fashion-hate-chinese-consumers
> 
> Here is an article in 2018 when D&G put out some very racist ads just in case anyone here have missed this back when it was first published. Not much has changed I guess (for example Lululemon's firing of their art director over his use of another artist's racist chinese artwork). D&G and Chanel ads falsely cemented the idea that Chinese people will always be uncivlized working in the rice fields wearing a straw hat. Even if that person is a CEO of a major corporation - he/she will always symbolically be tied to those ricefields. Not that there is anything wrong with being a farmer - I have extended family who are sugar cane farmers but others are in IT, teachers, marketing, etc. The point is that it is always this portrayal of Chinese people that isn't really any different than how Western entertainment also view Indigenous or First Nations people and Black people. As a race or ethnicity we are uncivilized but parts of our culture or history can be appropriated and picked apart to be used to generate money.


My son was told by a college professor for example “if your parents have a laundry business” last semester...


----------



## rutabaga

dooneybaby said:


> You have got to be kidding? That's down right disgusting!I don't know how I missed that. Usually I'm up on things like that.
> Everyone needs to be thanking the Black Lives Matter Movement's growth after the death of George Floyd. Before this year's protests, most people didn't give a darn. Now all of a sudden, people have something to say.
> It's about time!



It was almost 20 years ago. Here's an article about the protests that occurred (I may or may not have participated in one...):








						Abercrombie recalls T-shirts many found offensive
					

Asian Americans in the Bay Area and beyond have been demanding that the retailer...




					www.sfgate.com
				




An A&F spokesperson said:  "We personally thought Asians would love this T-shirt," he said. "We are truly and deeply sorry we've offended people. . . . We never single out any one group to poke fun at. We poke fun at everybody, from women to flight attendants to baggage handlers, to football coaches, to Irish Americans to snow skiers. There's really no group we haven't teased."

In 2002, it was A&F, in 2020, it was Lululemon. Things really haven't improved that much in 20 years and hate crimes against Asians have actually increased since news of the coronavirus came out of China, including from other POC.


----------



## dooneybaby

i*bella said:


> It was almost 20 years ago. Here's an article about the protests that occurred (I may or may not have participated in one...):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abercrombie recalls T-shirts many found offensive
> 
> 
> Asian Americans in the Bay Area and beyond have been demanding that the retailer...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An A&F spokesperson said:  "We personally thought Asians would love this T-shirt," he said. "We are truly and deeply sorry we've offended people. . . . We never single out any one group to poke fun at. We poke fun at everybody, from women to flight attendants to baggage handlers, to football coaches, to Irish Americans to snow skiers. There's really no group we haven't teased."
> 
> In 2002, it was A&F, in 2020, it was Lululemon. Things really haven't improved that much in 20 years and hate crimes against Asians have actually increased since news of the coronavirus came out of China, including from other POC.


Stupid stuff like that happens because the board rooms are not diverse enough. I'm a black woman and I know better than to think that Asians would like like some insulting saying like that. WTF?


----------



## dooneybaby

limom said:


> My son was told by a college professor for example “if your parents have a laundry business” last semester...


I am so glad that everyone is coming out and telling their stories. Some of us have known that this kind of passive-aggressiveness has always been happening. Other folks just didn't believe it.


----------



## maryg1

opensesame said:


> I vaguely remember seeing them selling sandals named “slave sandals,” or something along that line.


I don’t what sandals you are referring to, but “sandali alla schiava” is a model of sandals, so maybe they just used the model name?


----------



## thewave1969

Sandali alla schiava or known as gladiator sandals is a normal Italian name referring to sandals, either flat or with heel, with long leather strings that tie around the calves, modeled after the old roman times. These sandals became popular during the 70's made by a famous Italian designer Vittoriana


----------



## QuelleFromage

880 said:


> Im Still learning re racism, but I’ll give an attempt at an answer. He’s the only African American artist for H scarves and some of his best known work seems to pay homage to an old world, somewhat Eurocentric POV of Native Americans, Which I think is in keeping with the heritage of Hermes. I believe either Quelle Fromage or Dooneybaby pointed out that he probably had nothing to do with naming of some scarves. . . Some of which (the names) could be construed as politically incorrect. After I read a few articles (there weren’t many), I hypothesized that he may have painted  without a particular political voice. He was a very private person who worked as a postal worker in Waco Texas and as per the article cited, really preferred an insular life and didn’t seem to value politicking especially after some well publicized family tragedies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scarf ace: The Waco postman who designs for Hermès
> 
> 
> Kermit Oliver is considered one of the French company's most important creative assets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk


"Construed as politically incorrect" is a great phrase to diminish terms (and actions) which cause people pain. I would just go with "racist".

I did not see the original post you responded to, but now that I can see it, I did not levy any argument against KO.
This is exactly the kind of diminishing/silencing talk that I was originally referring to in the forum. It's hurtful. If folks won't listen, there's no point. I'm going to politely remove myself from this discussion.


----------



## opensesame

maryg1 said:


> I don’t what sandals you are referring to, but “sandali alla schiava” is a model of sandals, so maybe they just used the model name?



I think that might be it, but it doesn’t look like a normal gladiator sandal. The official name of the item was “slave sandal in napa leather with pompous.” It was sold in 2016.


----------



## opensesame

thewave1969 said:


> Sandali alla schiava or known as gladiator sandals is a normal Italian name referring to sandals, either flat or with heel, with long leather strings that tie around the calves, modeled after the old roman times. These sandals became popular during the 70's made by a famous Italian designer Vittoriana



I just checked and the sandals in question was spelled out in english ”Slave sandal in napa leather with pompous,” priced at $2395. It can be a type of gladiator sandals, but not the traditional kind.


----------



## opensesame

dooneybaby said:


> I am so glad that everyone is coming out and telling their stories. Some of us have known that this kind of passive-aggressiveness has always been happening. Other folks just didn't believe it.



Actually, when I was in school, I was told by a handsome wasp classmate (0.1% $$$) that racism doesn’t exist anymore because he doesn’t feel it and that Asian people are so racist. I laughed. Of course he wouldn’t feel it...


----------



## 880

QuelleFromage said:


> Construed as politically incorrect" is a great phrase to diminish terms (and actions) which cause people pain. I would just go with "racist".


Hi Quelle fromage, agree the title standing alone is racist. However, I chose politically incorrect specifically For the following reasons.

I find KO’s actual depiction of Native Americans even more troubling than the actual title (which, for all I know, could be finalized after the fact by a corporate committee) Since this is a thread on racism as against African Americans, I choose not to attribute it even indirectly to KO, a revered African American artist. Since this is only my personal opinion,  I deemed it inappropriate for me to use racist (and more respectful to KO, to use politically incorrect) in that context. 

Because I extend responsibility of the terms and actions (or title and work) beyond H corporate, I would  prefer to imagine that KO is perhaps a bit like Dooneybaby’s dad, just a bit reticent to address racism in either his creative process or his own life. Again, JMO. I also don’t think I stated you levied any argument as against KO; in fact, I believe i stated the opposite, in that I thought you absolved him of responsibility as to the title. id also like to think that all of us try to give each other the benefit of the doubt when it comes to such polarizing views and that no one, in a thoughtful post, would deliberately  diminish the POV of others.


----------



## maryg1

opensesame said:


> I just checked and the sandals in question was spelled out in english ”Slave sandal in napa leather with pompous,” priced at $2395. It can be a type of gladiator sandals, but not the traditional kind.


Searched for it, they’re definitely gladiator/slave sandals. 
As pointed out before, sandali alla schiava is referred to Roman times, it has nothing to do with African slavery.


----------



## opensesame

maryg1 said:


> Searched for it, they’re definitely gladiator/slave sandals.
> As pointed out before, sandali alla schiava is referred to Roman times, it has nothing to do with African slavery.



I just wonder why the brand thought it would be fashionable to label it as such in 2016. Apparently saks decided to label it as something else, and avoided using the term. It feels different when it’s labeled in Italian vs English.


----------



## 880

thought this was nice 








						A Look Into the Hottest Handbag Right Now: The Telfar Shopping Bag - PurseBlog
					

One of my favorite shows, that I've now watched two times in its entirety, is HBO's Insecure. Issa Rae's character, Issa Dee, carried her Telfar Shopping Bag, which became her ubiquitous handbag on…




					www.purseblog.com


----------



## Four Tails

880 said:


> thought this was nice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Look Into the Hottest Handbag Right Now: The Telfar Shopping Bag - PurseBlog
> 
> 
> One of my favorite shows, that I've now watched two times in its entirety, is HBO's Insecure. Issa Rae's character, Issa Dee, carried her Telfar Shopping Bag, which became her ubiquitous handbag on…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.purseblog.com


Yes! I noticed Sonja Morgan carrying one of these in the last few RHONY episodes, which means she was supporting the brand well before recent events. Whether she was specifically doing it to be progressive or she just liked the bag, I'm so happy it got that publicity.


----------



## rutabaga

How do we feel about the term “anchor baby” being repeatedly used in the Meghan Markle thread? I reported it because this is an offense term often used against immigrant women of color but the posts are still there. Even if the term was thrown around jokingly to describe MM having a baby in order to “anchor” herself to Harry (instead of the more mainstream American definition of a noncitizen having a baby in the US to give the child American citizenship and benefits) I don’t think this is appropriate. I doubt that anyone here would call a white celeb’s child an “anchor baby” even in the joking sense that she got pregnant to keep a man. Yet somehow it’s ok to casually throw these offensive terms around when discussing MM. I’m no Stan but I do believe that people are being more critical of MM because she’s biracial.


----------



## Mimmy

i*bella said:


> How do we feel about the term “anchor baby” being repeatedly used in the Meghan Markle thread? I reported it because this is an offense term often used against immigrant women of color but the posts are still there. Even if the term was thrown around jokingly to describe MM having a baby in order to “anchor” herself to Harry (instead of the more mainstream American definition of a noncitizen having a baby in the US to give the child American citizenship and benefits) I don’t think this is appropriate. I doubt that anyone here would call a white celeb’s child an “anchor baby” even in the joking sense that she got pregnant to keep a man. Yet somehow it’s ok to casually throw these offensive terms around when discussing MM. I’m no Stan but I do believe that people are being more critical of MM because she’s biracial.


Anchor baby has a specific meaning and is derogatory. 

Unfortunately that thread seems to continue to have these types of posts and even when reported they are not removed.


----------



## Vlad

i*bella said:


> How do we feel about the term “anchor baby” being repeatedly used in the Meghan Markle thread? I reported it because this is an offense term often used against immigrant women of color but the posts are still there. Even if the term was thrown around jokingly to describe MM having a baby in order to “anchor” herself to Harry (instead of the more mainstream American definition of a noncitizen having a baby in the US to give the child American citizenship and benefits) I don’t think this is appropriate. I doubt that anyone here would call a white celeb’s child an “anchor baby” even in the joking sense that she got pregnant to keep a man. Yet somehow it’s ok to casually throw these offensive terms around when discussing MM. I’m no Stan but I do believe that people are being more critical of MM because she’s biracial.



I saw the report but had not looked into it. I didn't know about the derogatory meaning of the term (in the context of immigration) and have removed it. Good to know!


----------



## Mimmy

Vlad said:


> I saw the report but had not looked into it. I didn't know about the derogatory meaning of the term (in the context of immigration) and have removed it. Good to know!


Thank you, Vlad.


----------



## jp23

mrsinsyder said:


> Who said it was negative? It's an accurate representation of who writes for TPF. If you're embarrassed of that, then that should tell you something.



Hello! I’m Jess! I write for the blog, I’m the one in the pink. Though I am white passing (my dad is Mexican my mom is mixed) my experience has been as a Mexican - American person. In one of my articles I even reference the Mexican sport Charreria, and my last name happens to be a very common Hispanic last name. I think the assumption feels negative (to me personally) because it strips me of that experience, something that is part of my identity and upbringing. It’s something that has brought me great joy and some hardships. And though it can be frustrating/exhausting to constantly have to “prove” my background I can see why you came to that conclusion. I acknowledge my very real “white passing” privilege, but that is not the only thing that I am, and not the only thing I have experienced. I think that it’s hard to make assumptions about someone’s ethnicity and racial experience based on a single photo because people are complex. I do understand your point, but for my own sanity I have learned to try and stand up for the part of me (which is most of me) that is Mexican- American, as it is something people often try and take from me. I hope you understand


----------



## dooneybaby

jp23 said:


> Hello! I’m Jess! I write for the blog, I’m the one in the pink. Though I am white passing (my dad is Mexican my mom is mixed) my experience has been as a Mexican - American person. In one of my articles I even reference the Mexican sport Charreria, and my last name happens to be a very common Hispanic last name. I think the assumption feels negative (to me personally) because it strips me of that experience, something that is part of my identity and upbringing. It’s something that has brought me great joy and some hardships. And though it can be frustrating/exhausting to constantly have to “prove” my background I can see why you came to that conclusion. I acknowledge my very real “white passing” privilege, but that is not the only thing that I am, and not the only thing I have experienced. I think that it’s hard to make assumptions about someone’s ethnicity and racial experience based on a single photo because people are complex. I do understand your point, but for my own sanity I have learned to try and stand up for the part of me (which is most of me) that is Mexican- American, as it is something people often try and take from me. I hope you understand


To be "white passing" is a very different experience in itself. Many times you get the benefits of "white privilege," but could also be discriminated against if someone knows your last name.
And I'm sure you've found yourself in situations where someone has made a disparaging comment about Hispanics, not realizing your ethnic background.
It's an interesting position to be in. 
I found the story of this woman especially interesting:


----------



## dooneybaby

Vlad said:


> I saw the report but had not looked into it. I didn't know about the derogatory meaning of the term (in the context of immigration) and have removed it. Good to know!


I totally agree. Usually the term "anchor baby" is used when a person who is in a country illegally has a child born in that country to secure their position.
I don't think the use of that term even fits Meghan Markle's case. And that shows you the discrimination she faces because she is biracial. If Archie is an anchor baby, then so were Princess Grace's children.


----------



## dooneybaby

i*bella said:


> How do we feel about the term “anchor baby” being repeatedly used in the Meghan Markle thread? I reported it because this is an offense term often used against immigrant women of color but the posts are still there. Even if the term was thrown around jokingly to describe MM having a baby in order to “anchor” herself to Harry (instead of the more mainstream American definition of a noncitizen having a baby in the US to give the child American citizenship and benefits) I don’t think this is appropriate. I doubt that anyone here would call a white celeb’s child an “anchor baby” even in the joking sense that she got pregnant to keep a man. Yet somehow it’s ok to casually throw these offensive terms around when discussing MM. I’m no Stan but I do believe that people are being more critical of MM because she’s biracial.


The term "anchor baby" doesn't even fit Meghan Markle's situation.
Some people are so butt hurt because a woman with a drop of black DNA married into the royal family and they'll try to say anything to discredit her. And they're the same people who have a hissy fit and declare, "No, it's not true" when you bring up Queen Charlotte Mecklenberg-Strelitz and her black ancestry.
THE ENTIRE ROYAL FAMILY IS PART BLACK!!
Get over it people. And look into your own background. If you go back far enough, you might get a big surprise.


----------



## doni

opensesame said:


> I just wonder why the brand thought it would be fashionable to label it as such in 2016. Apparently saks decided to label it as something else, and avoided using the term. It feels different when it’s labeled in Italian vs English.


Probably it was not labeled as such, just called like this because it is the generic name in Italy, like saying ballerina or loafer, with no racist connotations as it is more a reference to their own history.

I think the issue with many Italian fashion firms is that even though their customer base is now global, they still operate as if they were serving the Italian market. That is actually part of what makes them genuine and successful, but they don’t seem well prepared to take account of sensitivities around the world and careful about offending others. This is also why brands like Dolce & Gabbana are particularly bad, not so much because they are more racist others, but because they are an independent and ultimately local company (instead of part of a big conglomerate) and seemingly ill prepared to deal with all this. I can imagine the board meeting room, with all these Italian men around the table... Diversity in board rooms really is essential in the modern world.


----------



## doni

GhstDreamer said:


> chinese artwork). D&G and Chanel ads falsely cemented the idea that Chinese people will always be uncivlized working in the rice fields wearing a straw hat. Even if that person is a CEO of a major corporation - he/she will always symbolically be tied to those ricefields. Not that there is anything wrong with being a farmer - I have extended family who are sugar cane farmers but others are in IT, teachers, marketing, etc. The point is that it is always this portrayal of Chinese people that isn't really any different than how Western entertainment also view Indigenous or First Nations people and Black people.



And yet D&G original look was all about bringing the sophisticated Italian woman back to her Southern farmland roots. Their default looks is the dressed up girl back at the village. They put women in black head scarves which had every bit as many derogatory and rural connotations as the straw hats in the rice fields would have in China. They had Madonna eating pasta with her fingers and washing plates in an old sink. Of course they are themselves southerners from a rural background who would have often felt out of place and looked down in chic and urban Milan. The thing is that you can do all this when you reference your own culture, but it gets very complicated when instead you play with that of others...


----------



## 880

I was reading some posts in this thread referring to colonialism, and the imagery of the well dressed sicilian girl returning to her village that  doni wrote above, made me think of Ariel Dorfman’s critique of french colonialism in Babar, in which the ‘now civilized‘ Babar, incidentally dressed in a suit, returns to his village to rule. (Of course, this being TPF, the clothing was the common thread  I vaguely emember reading Ariel dorfman in college in the 1980’s, but thought I read a more recent mention If anyone is interested. (both a synopsis and a mention of the counter arg ‘must we burn Babar,’ ended with what people would probably disagree with today and on this thread (and find more insidious precisely bc it’s coated in such attractive guise). note: I have very mixed feelings about this quote as well as mixed feelings about the Dolce and chanel and other RTW in my closet:
quote:
Yet those who would burn “Babar” miss the true subject of the books. The de Brunhoffs’ saga is not an unconscious expression of the French colonial imagination; it is a self-conscious comedy about the French colonial imagination and its close relation to the French domestic imagination. The gist of the classic early books of the nineteen-thirties—“The Story of Babar” and “Babar the King,” particularly—is explicit and intelligent: the lure of the city, of civilization, of style and order and bourgeois living is real, for elephants as for humans. The costs of those things are real, too, in the perpetual care, the sobriety of effort, they demand. The happy effect that Babar has on us, and our imaginations, comes from this knowledge—from the child’s strong sense that, while it is a very good thing to be an elephant, still, the life of an elephant is dangerous, wild, and painful. It is therefore a safer thing to be an elephant in a house near a park.
Freeing the Elephants
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/09/22/freeing-the-elephants

forgot to add, the TPF contributor above, who spoke of white passing, made me als think of Dorfman’s description of himself as a hybrid naturalized citizen and this sense of being neither fish nor fowl. , ,


----------



## ap.

limom said:


> I know that doing black/brown face irl is racist, I did not know that choosing a person of a different race as an avatar was suspect when the person chosen was famous.
> Like if I used Halle Berry as an avatar for instance.
> Now I know.



Actually, when the avatar is of a *non*-famous person/place/thing that we assume it is somehow personally related to the member. Like a poster with a cat avatar — I assume it’s _their_ cat. But if you take on Halle Berry’s image (Sorry, I can’t think of a famous cat) I assume it’s because you’re a fan of Halle Berry (I mean you could _be_ Halle Berry, but what are the chances?). 

I’ve used Roger Federer’s image as my avatar.  It’s not because I’m a white male tennis player, but because I’m a massive fan and he probably did something awesome at the time. I’ve put up Andy Murray’s pic as an avatar as well, likely when he’d done something amazing (though I’m not as much a fan). And Martin Fourcade, a biathlete — in his ski suit with a biathlon rifle — around the Winter Olympics. Also posted a picture of Gunnersaurus as I’m a long-suffering Arsenal fan. 



sdkitty said:


> OT but sometimes when a person here who seems to be female uses a male pic as an avatar (and maybe it's a celeb I don't recognize) I wonder why it's being used


----------



## 880

apey_grapey said:


> I can’t think of a famous cat


OT, but The most famous cat in fashion (or the wealthiest) I think is Karl Lagerfeld cat Choupette  as per BBC: 

Choupette already has a substantial fortune to her name, having earned $3m (£2.3m) doing adverts for a German car firm and a Japanese cosmetics brand with Lagerfeld.
In a separate interview with Numero, Lagerfeld revealed he employed two maids to look after the pampered animal who, he said, has "four different dishes prepared for her" each day "served in fabulous bowls".
He also made Choupette a social media sensation, with her own Twitter and Instagram accounts that have a combined following of about 200,000.
Karl Lagerfeld: Designer's cat Choupette 'named in his will' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47305450


----------



## dooneybaby

apey_grapey said:


> Actually, when the avatar is of a *non*-famous person/place/thing that we assume it is somehow personally related to the member. Like a poster with a cat avatar — I assume it’s _their_ cat. But if you take on Halle Berry’s image (Sorry, I can’t think of a famous cat) I assume it’s because you’re a fan of Halle Berry (I mean you could _be_ Halle Berry, but what are the chances?).
> 
> I’ve used Roger Federer’s image as my avatar.  It’s not because I’m a white male tennis player, but because I’m a massive fan and he probably did something awesome at the time. I’ve put up Andy Murray’s pic as an avatar as well, likely when he’d done something amazing (though I’m not as much a fan). And Martin Fourcade, a biathlete — in his ski suit with a biathlon rifle — around the Winter Olympics. Also posted a picture of Gunnersaurus as I’m a long-suffering Arsenal fan.


I think it all depends on if the person has nefarious motives, which, if they did, how would we know?
Why can't a white woman have Frida Kahlo, or Nina Simone in their avatar? Why can't I, as a black woman, have Audrey Hepburn in my avatar?
If someone is clearly making racist statements and has an avatar of a person who is the race that's being maligned, then I'd say it's suspect, but really, how would we know what the person's motives are?
I think that we're getting way too knit-picky when it comes to issues like this. Because just a few months ago, a lot of people wouldn't have given a darn - or at least they wouldn't have expressed that they cared about such things. 
It seems like we're going from one extreme to the other. 
And I'm not singling out anyone. The same thing is happening at my workplace. Now we're getting all these memos and emails on racial equality, stereotyping, how to refer to certain ethnic groups in news copy, etc, even how some staffers might be or have been stereotyped or treated a certain way because of their race.
I find myself asking, "Where the heck were you last year when you didn't give a darn?"


----------



## ap.

dooneybaby said:


> When I was a kid, the term "Negro" was used in the U.S. For example, before "Black History Month" it was "Negro History Week." Then "Negro" gradually became "black," which gradually became "African American." Personally, I just prefer to be called black, not African American.
> Also, what I find interesting is that in America, Americans many times put their race or ethnicity before "American." For example: African American, Italian American, Irish American. Regardless of race or origin, most people from other countries just identify themselves by their nationality. For example, you could have someone from Canada whose family originates from India, but they still call themselves Canadian.
> Any theories as to why many Americans can't just call themselves American?



I had co-workers who identified themselves as Italian who had never set foot in Italy nor were their parents immigrants from Italy.  I think it’s more prevalent in the east coast as I don’t remember origins as a big discussion topic when growing up in California, where, ironically, my immediate circle was more ethnically, if not economically, diverse. I’d never been asked where I’m _from_ as often as when I moved East — and they’re never satisfied with “California” as an answer.


----------



## Mimmy

dooneybaby said:


> The term "anchor baby" doesn't even fit Meghan Markle's situation.
> Some people are so butt hurt because a woman with a drop of black DNA married into the royal family and they'll try to say anything to discredit her. And they're the same people who have a hissy fit and declare, "No, it's not true" when you bring up Queen Charlotte Mecklenberg-Strelitz and her black ancestry.
> THE ENTIRE ROYAL FAMILY IS PART BLACK!!
> Get over it people. And look into your own background. If you go back far enough, you might get a big surprise.


I think another problem is that people see the term “anchor baby” used by another poster, don’t even know the true meaning and either attach their own meaning to it or at least catch the drift that it is negative and choose to use it.

I usually don’t want to think that much either when reading things on TPF but it would be helpful if some posters would be open to educating themselves.


----------



## 880

apey_grapey said:


> think it’s more prevalent in the east coast as I don’t remember origins as a big discussion topic when growing up in California, where, ironically, my immediate circle was more ethnically, if not economically, diverse. I’d never been asked where I’m _from_ as often as when I moved East — and they’re never satisfied with “California” as an answer.


Agree!

DooneyBaby, Mimmie, re MM, race and the royals, there are some articles acknowledging the issue of racism playing  a big part of how she is judged (By authors who are not fans of everything she does). 








						I'm not blind to Meghan Markle's flaws, but she's been treated abominably | Barbara Ellen
					

The racism directed at the duchess was all too real




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## minnnea

dooneybaby said:


> I think it all depends on if the person has nefarious motives, which, if they did, how would we know?
> Why can't a white woman have Frida Kahlo, or Nina Simone in their avatar? Why can't I, as a black woman, have Audrey Hepburn in my avatar?
> If someone is clearly making racist statements and has an avatar of a person who is the race that's being maligned, then I'd say it's suspect, but really, how would we know what the person's motives are?
> I think that we're getting way too knit-picky when it comes to issues like this. Because just a few months ago, a lot of people wouldn't have given a darn - or at least they wouldn't have expressed that they cared about such things.
> It seems like we're going from one extreme to the other.
> And I'm not singling out anyone. The same thing is happening at my workplace. Now we're getting all these memos and emails on racial equality, stereotyping, how to refer to certain ethnic groups in news copy, etc, even how some staffers might be or have been stereotyped or treated a certain way because of their race.
> I find myself asking, "Where the heck were you last year when you didn't give a darn?"



I think you are really on the spot here. Few cared but now more care. I believe many are sincere but as a white person it does feel that you have a pressure to say: ”im anti-racist”, ”I know my privilages”. There is a pressure to show you care and knowledge issues. Maybe we do but also maybe we sometimes just tell others we do.


----------



## 880

minnnea said:


> I think you are really on the spot here. Few cared but now more care. I believe many are sincere but as a white person it does feel that you have a pressure to say: ”im anti-racist”, ”I know my privilages”. There is a pressure to show you care and knowledge issues. Maybe we do but also maybe we sometimes just tell others we do.


Everlane was one of the companies that build it’s business stating that they cared about ethical fashion; about diversity; inclusion in addition to environmental concerns, etc.  NYT article about racism and other issues at Everlane.

quote:
hen, in June, brands everywhere rushed to show support for the Black Lives Matter movement amid protests over George Floyd’s killing. Everlane was one of them. But the support rang hollow to many, including those who said they had experienced racism while working at Everlane.
A collective of 14 anonymous former employees called the Ex Wives Club published a lengthy document on their experiences with what they called “anti-Black behavior” at Everlane. The employees wrote about being overworked, underpaid, deprived of career opportunities and punished for speaking up. Everlane said this was not accurate.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/26/...al-clothing.html?referringSource=articleShare


----------



## keodi

880 said:


> Everlane was one of the companies that build it’s business stating that they cared about ethical fashion; about diversity; inclusion in addition to environmental concerns, etc.  NYT article about racism and other issues at Everlane.
> 
> quote:
> hen, in June, brands everywhere rushed to show support for the Black Lives Matter movement amid protests over George Floyd’s killing. Everlane was one of them. But the support rang hollow to many, including those who said they had experienced racism while working at Everlane.
> A collective of 14 anonymous former employees called the Ex Wives Club published a lengthy document on their experiences with what they called “anti-Black behavior” at Everlane. The employees wrote about being overworked, underpaid, deprived of career opportunities and punished for speaking up. Everlane said this was not accurate.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/26/...al-clothing.html?referringSource=articleShare


A lot of former employees talked about their experiences online, i can't say i was surprised by this as stories emerged about Everlane's practices a few years before the protests, it just fell on deaf ears..


----------



## 880

Christina48576 said:


> I think the best approach, instead of threatening someone, is to reflect, maybe apologize because someone was hurt by a comment you made and your avatar, and going forward try to be more respectful. Listening and learning is good! Making mistakes is fine if you own up to it and try a different approach in the future.




Christina48576,  your post ^ reminded me of this quote which i think it applicable to the general thread topic (makes me think that racism is embedded in Fashion btw) The article is entitled Sustaining Systemic Racism through Pyschological Gaslighting
quote:
e person with no critical knowledge of systemic racism is considering the notion of racism and how it affects their daily life, they may confuse racism as an issue at the personal level instead of the institutional level and there- fore, the concept of macroaggressions may escape them completely.A1





						SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
					

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.




					journals.sagepub.com
				




A1agypsy, sdkitty, thanks for the page number I went back and reread the original response by all parties from over a month ago


----------



## Mimmy

I would hate to see a conflict between specific members derail or close this thread. Talking about race can and has become uncomfortable for some. I think overall posters on this thread have remained respectful. 

@Megs @Vlad perhaps the discussion between these members can be discussed privately. I honestly don’t know anything about this conflict as I guess I don’t frequent a lot of threads that they do.

I have gained a lot of perspective and I am happy to see that members are not always just thinking about handbags ... don’t get me wrong , I see nothing wrong with that.


----------



## 880

dooneybaby said:


> Why can't a white woman have Frida Kahlo, or Nina Simone in their avatar? Why can't I, as a black woman, have Audrey Hepburn in my avatar?


I don’t have a problem with it   But you didnt say you wanted Pepe the Frog either. I also realized the reason why this issue never occurred to me is that my eyesight is so crappy I never look at anyone’s avatar. I just squint and try to make sure I’m replying to the right poster.


----------



## dooneybaby

880 said:


> I don’t have a problem with it   But you didnt say you wanted Pepe the Frog either. I also realized the reason why this issue never occurred to me is that my eyesight is so crappy I never look at anyone’s avatar. I just squint and try to make sure I’m replying to the right poster.


Pepe the Frog is not a person. And it sounds just as offensive as the Frito Bandito, from the 1970s. Let's distinguish between real people and offensive characters.


----------



## CarryOn2020

As we sit in the comfort of our own homes, take a moment and please contemplate this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage


----------



## chicinthecity777

I had never heard of "anchor baby" before this thread. Thank you for those explaining it. It would not be much of a thing in the UK as UK doesn't automatically grant citizenship if one is born here. It just shows country and culture differences definitely plays a role in our understanding. I would never understand the Italian name of the "slave" sandal as I don't speak Italian. But if I saw a shoe labelled as "slave sandal" in a store in an English speaking country, I would definitely do a double take and thinking it's quite distasteful. 

I am grateful in learning these on this thread! So interesting and educational!


----------



## minnnea

.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Christina48576 said:


> I think the best approach, instead of threatening someone, is to reflect, maybe apologize because someone was hurt by a comment you made and your avatar, and going forward try to be more respectful. Listening and learning is good! Making mistakes is fine if you own up to it and try a different approach in the future.



I totally agree! We are all learning and everyone is going to make mistakes in the process. It's how we handle them that shows our true intentions and character.

For example I was surprised Americans on this thread were unfamiliar with the term "anchor baby" because it was controversial several years ago when a celebrity insisted on continuing to use it to describe children despite being asked to stop. So it was clear that was a deliberate choice to use racist language, not out of ignorance but purposefully with full understanding and intent.

We have other examples in this very thread. When posters respond to comments defensively with anger or sarcasm I have to question their motives. However when others immediately apologize and seem grateful for the education it's much easier to believe they are sincere in truly wanting to understand and do better.


----------



## Megs

** FYI if you saw this thread deleted for a few minutes, it was my fault but not intentional! I was removing a few posts that broke our TOS, and instead of doing that deleted the entire thread. Clearly I need more sleep and more caffeine!! **


----------



## 880

I saw this article and thought it was both positive and belonged here re
'I started a fashion business from two suitcases' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53486191


----------



## Swanky

I’ve seen the term anchor baby used in various threads here, never heard it in my real life. It seemed like a derogatory term for a woman to financially tie herself to a man, I never noted race related, but I had no idea of its history as I’d never heard it before.


----------



## dooneybaby

Swanky said:


> I’ve seen the term anchor baby used in various threads here, never heard it in my real life. It seemed like a derogatory term for a woman to financially tie herself to a man, I never noted race related, but I had no idea of its history as I’d never heard it before.


Whoever used the phrase in that instance probably didn't know what it meant.
An anchor baby is when a woman in a country illegally gives birth to a child in that country so that she won't be kicked out. It used to be that it was much harder to deport someone in the U.S. illegally if they had children born here. But the government doesn't care anymore. They just kick the adults out and tell them that they have the choice of taking the U.S.-born child with them.


----------



## dooneybaby

880 said:


> thought this was nice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Look Into the Hottest Handbag Right Now: The Telfar Shopping Bag - PurseBlog
> 
> 
> One of my favorite shows, that I've now watched two times in its entirety, is HBO's Insecure. Issa Rae's character, Issa Dee, carried her Telfar Shopping Bag, which became her ubiquitous handbag on…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.purseblog.com


Nice until you've tried for 2 years to buy one, as I have.
They're always out of stock. And now the online store is closed.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

I'm kind of shocked people from the US haven't heard "anchor baby" since it's been part of a very public policy debate.

Do we agree that it is a racist term? Here's the definition...



> an·chor ba·by
> 
> _noun_
> OFFENSIVE
> 
> used to refer to a child born to a noncitizen mother in a country which has birthright citizenship, especially when viewed as providing an advantage to family members seeking to secure citizenship or legal residency.



It was also included on a list of buzzwords in 2006, meaning it first appeared or became prominent then...

*



			anchor baby
		
Click to expand...

*


> : a derogatory term for a child born in the United States to an immigrant. Since these children automatically qualify as American citizens, they can later act as a sponsor for other family members.


----------



## rutabaga

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I'm kind of shocked people from the US haven't heard "anchor baby" since it's been part of a very public policy debate.
> 
> Do we agree that it is a racist term? Here's the definition...
> 
> 
> 
> It was also included on a list of buzzwords in 2006, meaning it first appeared or became prominent then...


Law enforcement has been cracking down on what's called "maternity tourism" in the US. Visiting women will pay $50k or more to stay in a posh location the last few months of their pregnancy with medical care, nannies, luxury shopping, and ultimately have the baby in the US and go home with a baby with automatic US citizenship. This is unique to the US as posters from other countries have stated that merely being born in that country isn't enough to confer citizenship and there are other requirements (for instance, it may be inherited through one or both parents).

Anyways, later on, the idea is that this citizen baby will grow up to sponsor family members for US citizenship and eventually have the entire family immigrate to the US. There was some discussion in recent years about chain migration and whether it should continue, because it's based on familial ties and not individual merits or school/job requirements.

I don't condone immigration fraud but I do think the term anchor baby is derogatory, especially in situations when WOC's children are assumed to be such when they could in fact be born to US citizens.


----------



## jenjen1964

Christina48576 said:


> I think this kind of language equates the two women, which is harmful. Melania has and does represent and espouse incredibly racist ideas. When her thread is compared to Michelle *****'s, it feels like saying "there are good people on both sides." I feel, it is complicity to continue to hold up Melania's fashion because, while white people may feel like they can "compartmentalize," POC don't have that privilege.


Not to start a whole new topic here, but this is not the first mention of Melania that said she is "racist".  I feel this is a personal political view (true or not) that doesn't need to be repeated here.  Swanky told you Michelle has/had a style thread, Melania gets one too whether you like her husband or not.  Let's move on shall we?


----------



## 880

jenjen1964 said:


> Not to start a whole new topic here, but this is not the first mention of Melania that said she is "racist".  I feel this is a personal political view (true or not) that doesn't need to be repeated here.  Swanky told you Michelle has/had a style thread, Melania gets one too whether you like her husband or not.  Let's move on shall we?


Hi Jenjen, think this was resolved after the quote you posted ( I seem to recall Christina, Swanky, Megs seemed to come to a point where everyone’s opinions were respected and differences explained  I think posts #277-290, plus probably a few more. . . If you’d like to take a look.  

I spent some time rereading your post and going back through the thread (mainly to keep myself from reading the depressing news). What seemed to emerge in the various posts above was the theme that yes, there  is a difference between stating that x has espoused views many deem to be racist which is factual (Meaning instances and citations could be provided) and stating a First Lady is disliked because of her political affiliation (impermissible under the rules). My personal opinion that the former should be permissible when applied to a fashion icon (and we can all agree that First Ladies are fashion icons) within this particular thread entitled fashion. . . Racism, I.e, the fact that Fashion icon  X said y = an example that Racism is not dead in fashion. The politics when stated that way, become incidental. 

Of course this is solely my interpretation of posts I’ve read here; I don’t pretend to understand intentions of others; and, people on this thread frequently have roasted me and disagree with me; so when I have enough, I do go to another thread like chanel RTW. 

I was also thinking about what dooneybaby said about a fictional avatar versus a real avatar of say Limoms example of a Caucasian woman using Halle berry and how much meaning; identity and message  to ascribe. .  . Definitely, this thread is food for thought and not for the faint hearted (in a good way)


----------



## Christina48576

880 said:


> I spent some time rereading your post and going back through the thread (mainly to keep myself from reading the depressing news). What seemed to emerge in the various posts above was the theme that yes, there is a difference between stating that x has espoused views many deem to be racist which is factual (Meaning instances and citations could be provided) and stating a First Lady is disliked because of her political affiliation (impermissible under the rules). My personal opinion that the former should be permissible when applied to a fashion icon (and we can all agree that First Ladies are fashion icons) within this particular thread entitled fashion. . . Racism, I.e, the fact that Fashion icon X said y = an example that Racism is not dead in fashion. The politics when stated that way, become incidental.



I couldn't have said it better myself! Thank you!


----------



## 880

Christina48576 said:


> I couldn't have said it better myself! Thank you!


In 2008, when I spent too much time on TPF, I bought a lot of bags. Now. . . Okay, I still buy bags, but I feel more virtuous about it after reading this thread !!!!!!


----------



## ap.

dooneybaby said:


> Whoever used the phrase in that instance probably didn't know what it meant.
> An anchor baby is when a woman in a country illegally gives birth to a child in that country so that she won't be kicked out. It used to be that it was much harder to deport someone in the U.S. illegally if they had children born here. But the government doesn't care anymore. They just kick the adults out and tell them that they have the choice of taking the U.S.-born child with them.



The woman doesn't have to be in the US illegally.  One can come into the US legally (under a tourist, student, or work visa, for example) then give birth in the US.  It's a function of the US granting birthright citizenship (i.e. based on whether a person is born in the country or its territories).


----------



## keodi

i*bella said:


> Law enforcement has been cracking down on what's called "maternity tourism" in the US. Visiting women will pay $50k or more to stay in a posh location the last few months of their pregnancy with medical care, nannies, luxury shopping, and ultimately have the baby in the US and go home with a baby with automatic US citizenship. This is unique to the US as posters from other countries have stated that merely being born in that country isn't enough to confer citizenship and there are other requirements (for instance, it may be inherited through one or both parents).
> 
> Anyways, later on, the idea is that this citizen baby will grow up to sponsor family members for US citizenship and eventually have the entire family immigrate to the US. There was some discussion in recent years about chain migration and whether it should continue, because it's based on familial ties and not individual merits or school/job requirements.
> 
> I don't condone immigration fraud but *I do think the term anchor baby is derogatory, especially in situations when WOC's children are assumed to be such when they could in fact be born to US citizens.*


agreed!


----------



## maryg1

[QUOTE="doni, post: 33947716, member: ]This is also why brands like Dolce & Gabbana are particularly bad, not so much because they are more racist others, but because they are an independent and ultimately local company (instead of part of a big conglomerate) and seemingly ill prepared to deal with all this. *I can imagine the board meeting room, with all these Italian men around the table... Diversity in board rooms really is essential in the modern world.*
[/QUOTE]
In Italy we also have great minds that fit great in the modern world.


----------



## keodi

880 said:


> Hi Jenjen, think this was resolved after the quote you posted ( I seem to recall Christina, Swanky, Megs seemed to come to a point where everyone’s opinions were respected and differences explained  I think posts #277-290, plus probably a few more. . . If you’d like to take a look.
> 
> I spent some time rereading your post and going back through the thread (mainly to keep myself from reading the depressing news). What seemed to emerge in the various posts above was the theme that yes, there  is a difference between stating that x has espoused views many deem to be racist which is factual (Meaning instances and citations could be provided) and stating a First Lady is disliked because of her political affiliation (impermissible under the rules). My personal opinion that the former should be permissible when applied to a fashion icon (and we can all agree that First Ladies are fashion icons) within this particular thread entitled fashion. . . Racism, I.e, the fact that Fashion icon  X said y = an example that Racism is not dead in fashion. The politics when stated that way, become incidental.
> 
> Of course this is solely my interpretation of posts I’ve read here; I don’t pretend to understand intentions of others; and, people on this thread frequently have roasted me and disagree with me; so when I have enough, I do go to another thread like chanel RTW.
> 
> I was also thinking about what dooneybaby said about a fictional avatar versus a real avatar of say Limoms example of a Caucasian woman using Halle berry and how much meaning; identity and message  to ascribe. .  . Definitely, this thread is food for thought and not for the faint hearted (in a good way)


very well said!


apey_grapey said:


> The woman doesn't have to be in the US illegally.  One can come into the US legally (under a tourist, student, or work visa, for example) then give birth in the US.  It's a function of the US granting birthright citizenship (i.e. based on whether a person is born in the country or its territories).


Very true, but the past, having the baby in the US also allowed the woman to remain in the US regardless if they originally arrived in the US legally i.e. Tourist, student, or work visa  expires or illegally. now as @dooneybaby  baby mentioned, the laws have changed, so now, the woman the has the choice to leave the child behind and leave the country or leave and take her child with her.


----------



## Swanky

I don't know why really. . . certainly none of my friends or family have ever used the term around me.  I've never been exposed to it and have only seen it here.  I think it's original intent was racist, definitely inappropriate.  I'm not sure people use it knowing that however.
I don't use it!



OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I'm kind of shocked people from the US haven't heard "anchor baby" since it's been part of a very public policy debate.
> 
> Do we agree that it is a racist term? Here's the definition...
> 
> 
> It was also included on a list of buzzwords in 2006, meaning it first appeared or became prominent then...


----------



## ap.

keodi said:


> very well said!
> 
> Very true, but the past, having the baby in the US also *allowed the woman to remain in the US regardless if they originally arrived in the US legally i.e. Tourist, student, or work visa  expires or illegally*. now as @dooneybaby  baby mentioned, the laws have changed, so now, the woman the has the choice to leave the child behind and leave the country or leave and take her child with her.



I don't believe this is the case.  Only US citizens 21 years or older can sponsor relatives for a green card -- a baby therefore cannot enable a non-citizen, non-permanent resident parent to legally permanently stay in the United States.  If looking for a quick way to get citizenship for the parents, birthing a child in the US is not it.


----------



## keodi

apey_grapey said:


> I don't believe this is the case.  *Only US citizens 21 years or older can sponsor relatives for a green card *-- a baby therefore cannot enable a non-citizen, non-permanent resident parent to legally permanently stay in the United States.  If looking for a quick way to get citizenship for the parents, birthing a child in the US is not it.


I'm aware that a baby does not enable a non-citizen, non permanent resident to *legally *permanently stay in the US. However, in the past before the law changes  a non-citizen, non permanent resident who may have initially entered legally, or not, would have their baby in the US, and remain in the US; sometimes legally sometimes not.


----------



## ap.

keodi said:


> I'm aware that a baby does not enable a non-citizen, non permanent resident to *legally *permanently stay in the US. However, in the past before the law changes  a non-citizen, non permanent resident who may have initially entered legally, or not, would have their baby in the US, and remain in the US; sometimes legally sometimes not.



Your previous post said 


keodi said:


> but the past, *having the baby in the US also allowed the woman to remain in the US* regardless if they originally arrived in the US legally i.e. Tourist, student, or work visa  expires or illegally.



I'm saying it didn't.  Having a baby in the US didn't confer to the mother/parents any benefit.  It certainly didn't _allow_ them to stay in the US legally or illegally -- even in the past.  The belief that non-resident mothers who gave birth in the US are able to stay because they have a citizen newborn is false now and in the past.  

From the Washington Post: The Myth of the Anchor Baby Deportation Defense (the article has more details)
...​But usually the debate has been about the residency of the parents, who after all are supposed to be using the child as their "anchor."​​This is the definition that has little legal underpinning. For illegal immigrant parents, being the parent of a U.S. citizen child almost never forms the core of a successful defense in an immigration court. In short, if the undocumented parent of a U.S.-born child is caught in the United States, he or she legally faces the very same risk of deportation as any other immigrant.​​The only thing that a so-called anchor baby can do to assist either of their undocumented parents involves such a long game that it's not a practical immigration strategy, said Greg Chen, an immigration law expert and director of The American Immigration Lawyers Association, a trade group that also advocates for immigrant-friendly reforms. That long game is this: If and when a U.S. citizen reaches the age of 21, he or she can then apply for a parent to obtain a visa and green card and eventually enter the United States legally.​...​


----------



## CarryOn2020

Anchor baby - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




As of 2012, the definition reads:



> _n. Offensive_ Used as a disparaging term for a child born to a noncitizen mother in a country that grants automatic citizenship to children born on its soil, especially when the child's birthplace is thought to have been chosen in order to improve the mother's or other relatives' chances of securing eventual citizenship.


*Maternity tourism industry[edit]*
Main article: Birth tourism
As of 2015, Los Angeles is considered the center of the maternity tourism industry, which caters mostly to wealthy Asian women;[20] authorities in the city there closed 14 maternity tourism "hotels" in 2013.[21] The industry is difficult to close down since it is not illegal for a pregnant woman to travel to the U.S.[21]

On March 3, 2015 Federal Agents in Los Angeles conducted a series of raids on 3 "multimillion-dollar birth-tourism businesses" expected to produce the "biggest federal criminal case ever against the booming 'anchor baby' industry", according to _The Wall Street Journal_.[21][22]


----------



## dooneybaby

keodi said:


> very well said!
> 
> Very true, but the past, having the baby in the US also allowed the woman to remain in the US regardless if they originally arrived in the US legally i.e. Tourist, student, or work visa  expires or illegally. now as @dooneybaby  baby mentioned, the laws have changed, so now, the woman the has the choice to leave the child behind and leave the country or leave and take her child with her.


True.


----------



## dooneybaby

CarryOn2020 said:


> Anchor baby - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As of 2012, the definition reads:
> 
> 
> *Maternity tourism industry[edit]*
> Main article: Birth tourism
> As of 2015, Los Angeles is considered the center of the maternity tourism industry, which caters mostly to wealthy Asian women;[20] authorities in the city there closed 14 maternity tourism "hotels" in 2013.[21] The industry is difficult to close down since it is not illegal for a pregnant woman to travel to the U.S.[21]
> 
> On March 3, 2015 Federal Agents in Los Angeles conducted a series of raids on 3 "multimillion-dollar birth-tourism businesses" expected to produce the "biggest federal criminal case ever against the booming 'anchor baby' industry", according to _The Wall Street Journal_.[21][22]


Although, the Chinese women who paid a lot of money to have their babies in the U.S. weren't doing it for themselves. They were doing it for their children, so that they'd have the choice of attending U.S. schools when they got older. Those children really don't fit the "anchor baby" definition.


----------



## chicinthecity777

dooneybaby said:


> Although, the Chinese women who paid a lot of money to have their babies in the U.S. weren't doing it for themselves. They were doing it for their children, so that they'd have the choice of attending U.S. schools when they got older. Those children really don't fit the "anchor baby" definition.


Now come to think of it, I do vaguely remember this story many years ago. Wasn't there some hospital was busted for this as they were hosting many of those pregnant women? I seem to remember the women were all quite wealthy and paid a lot of money for the "scheme" and they wanted their children to have access to the U.S. systems etc. I however don't remember seeing the Anchor Baby used then.


----------



## dooneybaby

apey_grapey said:


> Your previous post said
> 
> 
> I'm saying it didn't.  Having a baby in the US didn't confer to the mother/parents any benefit.  It certainly didn't _allow_ them to stay in the US legally or illegally -- even in the past.  The belief that non-resident mothers who gave birth in the US are able to stay because they have a citizen newborn is false now and in the past.
> 
> From the Washington Post: The Myth of the Anchor Baby Deportation Defense (the article has more details)
> ...​But usually the debate has been about the residency of the parents, who after all are supposed to be using the child as their "anchor."​​This is the definition that has little legal underpinning. For illegal immigrant parents, being the parent of a U.S. citizen child almost never forms the core of a successful defense in an immigration court. In short, if the undocumented parent of a U.S.-born child is caught in the United States, he or she legally faces the very same risk of deportation as any other immigrant.​​The only thing that a so-called anchor baby can do to assist either of their undocumented parents involves such a long game that it's not a practical immigration strategy, said Greg Chen, an immigration law expert and director of The American Immigration Lawyers Association, a trade group that also advocates for immigrant-friendly reforms. That long game is this: If and when a U.S. citizen reaches the age of 21, he or she can then apply for a parent to obtain a visa and green card and eventually enter the United States legally.​...​


But there are cases, in which the ACLU has assisted, where an illegal immigrant who gave birth to a child in the U.S. would fight to stay in the U.S., arguing that their child is an American citizen and has the right to stay in the U.S. Therefore by default, they say, the parent who takes care of the child should be able to stay as well. Many times in the past, it worked. 
And only with the past 3 or so presidential administrations has the government been cracking down.
Right now, so many cases are popping up where an illegal immigrant who married a U.S. citizen and had a family has gotten deported, and the family is split apart. There are even cases where U.S. citizens adopted a child from another country, but failed to do the paperwork to make the child a citizen. Then as an adult, that adopted child has been deported to a country they know nothing about.


----------



## dooneybaby

chicinthecity777 said:


> Now come to think of it, I do vaguely remember this story many years ago. Wasn't there some hospital was busted for this as they were hosting many of those pregnant women? I seem to remember the women were all quite wealthy and paid a lot of money for the "scheme" and they wanted their children to have access to the U.S. systems etc. I however don't remember seeing the Anchor Baby used then.


It was an entire operation, and wealthy Chinese women were willing to pay the price. They'd stay mansions while pregnant, deliver the child in the U.S. and then return home. When the child becomes of age or is ready for college, that child has the option of having a life in the U.S. That was still going on just a few years ago - until the U.S. government cracked down.


----------



## keodi

dooneybaby said:


> True.


Thanks! I remembered that being the case when I worked as a legal assistant for an immigrant lawyer.


----------



## keodi

dooneybaby said:


> It was an entire operation, and wealthy Chinese women were willing to pay the price. They'd stay mansions while pregnant, deliver the child in the U.S. and then return home. When the child becomes of age or is ready for college, that child has the option of having a life in the U.S. That was still going on just a few years ago - until the U.S. government cracked down.


very true too!


----------



## keodi

dooneybaby said:


> But there are cases, in which the ACLU has assisted, where an illegal immigrant who gave birth to a child in the U.S. would fight to stay in the U.S., arguing that their child is an American citizen and has the right to stay in the U.S. Therefore by default, they say, the parent who takes care of the child should be able to stay as well. Many times in the past, it worked.
> And only with the past 3 or so presidential administrations has the government been cracking down.
> Right now, so many cases are popping up where an illegal immigrant who married a U.S. citizen and had a family has gotten deported, and the family is split apart. There are even cases where U.S. citizens adopted a child from another country, but failed to do the paperwork to make the child a citizen. Then as an adult, that adopted child has been deported to a country they know nothing about.


true.


----------



## ap.

keodi said:


> Thanks! I remembered that being the case when I worked as a legal assistant for an immigrant lawyer.



As a legal assistant to an immigrant lawyer, how many cases of women asking to be allowed to stay after giving birth to a child in the US did your firm win?  You and @dooneybaby make it seem like women being allowed to stay after giving birth to "anchor babies" were common.  As I said before, having an "anchor baby" in an attempt to somehow bolster the mother's right to stay in the US was never a great strategy.  If it were, _millions_ would have used it given the number of undocumented people that have entered the US over time.  Moreover, if at some point undocumented mothers had increased chances of being allowed to stay after having a baby in the US, the proportion of undocumented immigrants that are women of child bearing age would be high, but they have been and still are significantly outnumbered by men.  

The "anchor baby" was more often used as a long-term ploy to secure for their child the benefits that come with US citizenship (usually by Asian parents) -- as was previously posted.


----------



## opensesame

I‘m not an expert on the issue of anchor babies or maternity tourism, but I’ve seen enough to get an idea. Maternity tourism is popular with Chinese who are wealthy, but not wealthy enough to obtain EB5. They want the baby to have US citizenship so they can attend US university and perhaps work in the states. Life is generally much easier in the US than in Asia, or anywhere else in my opinion. Long time ago, I believe you didn’t have got report all of your earnings in a foreign country, so your child can actually claim to be below poverty line when applying for school. I don’t think you can do this anymore, but I’ve certainly seen many Taiwanese friends’ application fees being waved, and their tuitions discounted/waived, even though I 100% knew they were financially comfortable. I think this trend will die down within next 10 years for the Chinese, because they would then have parents with US citizenships and have other ways to obtain citizenship for their child. 

The term I’ve heard more often for Chinese is actually ”parachute kids,” which means children who are in the US alone to attend college etc. I couldn’t understand why so many people were upset since international kids are paying full tuition without loans and not competing for resources. They applied, school accepted, and they came. I think looking physically different and the sheer number of Chinese may have been frightening for some people.


----------



## opensesame

apey_grapey said:


> As a legal assistant to an immigrant lawyer, how many cases of women asking to be allowed to stay after giving birth to a child in the US did your firm win?  You and @dooneybaby make it seem like women being allowed to stay after giving birth to "anchor babies" were common.  As I said before, having an "anchor baby" in an attempt to somehow bolster the mother's right to stay in the US was never a great strategy.  If it were, _millions_ would have used it given the number of undocumented people that have entered the US over time.  Moreover, if at some point undocumented mothers had increased chances of being allowed to stay after having a baby in the US, the proportion of undocumented immigrants that are women of child bearing age would be high, but they have been and still are significantly outnumbered by men.
> 
> The "anchor baby" was more often used as a long-term ploy to secure for their child the benefits that come with US citizenship (usually by Asian parents) -- as was previously posted.



I don’t know the success rates, but I am pretty sure it drags the whole process much longer. I’m sure millions have used it. There was a similar case in Japan and it dragged on forever, due to moral issues. If the parents didn’t have children, the Japanese government would have expedited the whole process.


----------



## LemonDrop

After reading through this thread for the first time today all I can say is   Where have I been for the last 13 years?!!!


----------



## sdkitty

CarryOn2020 said:


> As we sit in the comfort of our own homes, take a moment and please contemplate this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage


scary times


----------



## LVLoveaffair

There have been articles in the newspapers over the past ten years about the Russian mafia buying up a lot of properties- mostly in Hollywood/Hallandale Beach. Women fly from Russia to have their babies here and then go back to Russia. Maybe the kids move here when they’re older? It still seems shady.


----------



## ap.

opensesame said:


> I don’t know the success rates, but I am pretty sure it drags the whole process much longer. *I’m sure millions have used it.* There was a similar case in Japan and it dragged on forever, due to moral issues. If the parents didn’t have children, the Japanese government would have expedited the whole process.



Would love to see this data.


----------



## opensesame

apey_grapey said:


> Would love to see this data.



Me too, if anyone is willing to reveal/collect it.


----------



## Christina48576

More on topic, saw this on Diet Prada today: Marni's SS20 campaign. The problems are more nuanced, as a the photographer Edgar Azevedo is Afro-Brazilian and, Giovanni Bianco, the art director, is Brazilian-Italian. It still displays a lot of harmful stereotypes and even displayed a model with chains around his feet (!!!!!)


----------



## minnnea

This is interesting this discussion that started with anchor baby and then turned to discussion about (the moee or less rich) giving birth in the US.

I have understood that the thing for europeans living in the US is different - many europeans travel to their home countries to give birth. The infant mortality is surprisingly high in the US and as I have understood it is very costly to give birth.


----------



## dooneybaby

Christina48576 said:


> More on topic, saw this on Diet Prada today: Marni's SS20 campaign. The problems are more nuanced, as a the photographer Edgar Azevedo is Afro-Brazilian and, Giovanni Bianco, the art director, is Brazilian-Italian. It still displays a lot of harmful stereotypes and even displayed a model with chains around his feet (!!!!!)



Oh, here we go again.
These fashion houses know what they're doing.


----------



## ap.

opensesame said:


> I don’t know the success rates, but I am pretty sure it drags the whole process much longer. *I’m sure millions have used it.* There was a similar case in Japan and it dragged on forever, due to moral issues. If the parents didn’t have children, the Japanese government would have expedited the whole process.





apey_grapey said:


> Would love to see this data.





opensesame said:


> Me too, if anyone is willing to reveal/collect it.



Why did you say you were *sure *millions have used it if you don't have the data?  Were you just BS-ing?


----------



## opensesame

apey_grapey said:


> Why did you say you were *sure *millions have used it if you don't have the data?  Were you just BS-ing?



How many illegal immigrants are in the US? No one knows the exact number, but there is an estimate. Let me rephrase myself to give you some peace. “I’m sure unknown numbers of ppl have used it.” Have a nice day.


----------



## dooneybaby

apey_grapey said:


> Why did you say you were *sure *millions have used it if you don't have the data?  Were you just BS-ing?


Estimates say that 10.5 million to 12 million undocumented immigrants are living in the U.S.
Who knows how many of them have had babies in the U.S. as a calculated way to stay in this country? More than likely the situation is that they came here, fell in love, married and had children, while keeping their immigration status secret. But there's no way you can really know the "intent" in most cases.
There are many other illegal immigrants who are here only to work and to send the money home to their families. 
The immigrant who drowned with his young daughter in the Rio Grande wanted to enter the U.S. illegally only so he could work and earn enough to return to his home country to build a home.


----------



## sdkitty

dooneybaby said:


> It was an entire operation, and wealthy Chinese women were willing to pay the price. They'd stay mansions while pregnant, deliver the child in the U.S. and then return home. When the child becomes of age or is ready for college, that child has the option of having a life in the U.S. That was still going on just a few years ago - until the U.S. government cracked down.


yes, a Thai woman I knew (wealthy) did this with all four of her kids
She and her husband owned a US company at the time and had a home here


----------



## TraceySH

dooneybaby said:


> Estimates say that 10.5 million to 12 million undocumented immigrants are living in the U.S.
> Who knows how many of them have had babies in the U.S. as a calculated way to stay in this country? More than likely the situation is that they came here, fell in love, married and had children, while keeping their immigration status secret. But there's no way you can really know the "intent" in most cases.
> There are many other illegal immigrants who are here only to work and to send the money home to their families.
> The immigrant who drowned with his young daughter in the Rio Grande wanted to enter the U.S. illegally only so he could work and earn enough to return to his home country to build a home.


I just found out yesterday from my house manager that the owner of the Mexican restaurant we frequent, who is also Mexican, is running illegals for 14k a head, and 20k a head if pregnant. She used to work there & has a couple of friends struggling to pay off their debt b/c they send most of their earnings back to Mexico. She is undocumented despite trying everything she (we) can to get her a visa & came over after she & husband got married at 16 years old after she found out she was pregnant in order to have her baby here. She now has 4 children who are citizens, but she can't even get a drivers license. She missed eligibility for DACA b/c she left US soil to go to her father's funeral in Mexico (which you can't do to be eligible). 

I do psych evals for immigration attorneys with families/ couples that are split (US citizen/ non-citizen), and the stories are heartbreaking how families are split up, HAVE to be split up, in order to stand in line to become eligible, which takes years. I lived in Brazil & married a Brazilian & came back to the US after a bit. I cannot even begin to describe the rigors of navigating through legalities and bureaucracy of the immigration system here. It was GRUELING. 

There is much info in this thread I cannot relate to/ am uneducated about, but this piece, yeah. I do.


----------



## sdkitty

n 


TraceySH said:


> I just found out yesterday from my house manager that the owner of the Mexican restaurant we frequent, who is also Mexican, is running illegals for 14k a head, and 20k a head if pregnant. She used to work there & has a couple of friends struggling to pay off their debt b/c they send most of their earnings back to Mexico. She is undocumented despite trying everything she (we) can to get her a visa & came over after she & husband got married at 16 years old after she found out she was pregnant in order to have her baby here. She now has 4 children who are citizens, but she can't even get a drivers license. She missed eligibility for DACA b/c she left US soil to go to her father's funeral in Mexico (which you can't do to be eligible).
> 
> I do psych evals for immigration attorneys with families/ couples that are split (US citizen/ non-citizen), and the stories are heartbreaking how families are split up, HAVE to be split up, in order to stand in line to become eligible, which takes years. I lived in Brazil & married a Brazilian & came back to the US after a bit. I cannot even begin to describe the rigors of navigating through legalities and bureaucracy of the immigration system here. It was GRUELING.
> 
> There is much info in this thread I cannot relate to/ am uneducated about, but this piece, yeah. I do.


I'm not sure I understand this correctly.  this woman is smuggling Mexicans and charging them big money which they can ill afford?  and you are sympathetic toward her?


----------



## TraceySH

sdkitty said:


> n
> 
> I'm not sure I understand this correctly.  this woman is smuggling Mexicans and charging them big money which they can ill afford?  and you are sympathetic toward her?


No you need to re-read. The owner of the restaurant she used to work at is doing this. She works for me and is a wonderful person. Her friend, who still works at the restaurant, is struggling to pay off her debt.


----------



## sdkitty

TraceySH said:


> No you need to re-read. The owner of the restaurant she used to work at is doing this. She works for me and is a wonderful person. Her friend, who still works at the restaurant, is struggling to pay off her debt.


ok
sorry


----------



## TraceySH

sdkitty said:


> ok
> sorry


It's a lot of stuff all put into a paragraph. I am sorry! It's been weighing on me. I have to figure out what to do.


----------



## doni

Christina48576 said:


> More on topic, saw this on Diet Prada today: Marni's SS20 campaign. The problems are more nuanced, as a the photographer Edgar Azevedo is Afro-Brazilian and, Giovanni Bianco, the art director, is Brazilian-Italian. It still displays a lot of harmful stereotypes and even displayed a model with chains around his feet (!!!!!)



Edgar Acevedo is not just an Afro-Brazilian photographer, as an artist he mainly chooses black subjects and his agenda is very political. According to himself, his work is directed _to the empowerment of blacks in society, breaking aesthetic and political standards, studying Afrocentrism, the socio-historical construction of Brazil, using representativeness and aesthetics as a form of empowerment._ I don’t feel I am in a position to judge, but for the American (one Asian, one milky white) Diet Prada to decide that his work is _racist_... Well, I don’t know, at least wait to hear what he has to say about this... White supremacism can take many forms I suppose.


----------



## sdkitty

TraceySH said:


> It's a lot of stuff all put into a paragraph. I am sorry! It's been weighing on me. I have to figure out what to do.


sorry for your friend


----------



## TraceySH

sdkitty said:


> sorry for your friend


Thank you. I fully expect it in border towns (where I grew up), but not up where I am now (small mountain town). Part of the price to come over is, of course, assuming someone's stolen identity, so it's just.....ugh. Sad. Complicated.The immigration system here is REALLY really really broken.


----------



## sdkitty

TraceySH said:


> Thank you. I fully expect it in border towns (where I grew up), but not up where I am now (small mountain town). Part of the price to come over is, of course, assuming someone's stolen identity, so it's just.....ugh. Sad. Complicated.The immigration system here is REALLY really really broken.


the bear in your avatar is local?


----------



## TraceySH

sdkitty said:


> the bear in your avatar is local?


Yes!! About 5 minutes from my house on a hike last year! We are in a different area now, but we used to get bears every single day. It seems fun except when they figure out how to open doors, drawers, outside  BBQ/ fridges & take naps on your patio furniture


----------



## sdkitty

TraceySH said:


> Yes!! About 5 minutes from my house on a hike last year! We are in a different area now, but we used to get bears every single day. It seems fun except when they figure out how to open doors, drawers, outside  BBQ/ fridges & take naps on your patio furniture


yes, fun to watch but they can do damage
A woman in the country area of san diego was killed by a bear several years ago - hiking


----------



## rutabaga

I thought this Vogue interview with SF mayor London Breed about the current wave of BLM activism is worth a read. I can understand why she feels frustrated with white liberals:









						San Francisco Mayor London Breed on Defunding the Police, White Activism, and Fighting for Her Community
					

“I don’t care if you are a Black mayor or not,” Breed tells “Vogue.” “If you see what’s happening to Black people in comparison to any other race in San Francisco, and you aren’t making deliberate investments that will change the outcome, then why even be in this position?”




					www.vogue.com
				




"I have a real problem with the takeover of the movement by white people.

I want people to respect the opinions and feelings of Black people and allow us to decide what is in our best interest. I talk about the plan to reduce the police budget and reallocate those resources to the African American community, and a large number of non-Blacks reached out to tell me what I should do for the Black community. Then, they say what their community deserves because of their challenges as well. That really bothered me. The Black community [of San Francisco] is capable of speaking for ourselves and deciding what’s in our best interest."


----------



## 880

i*bella said:


> I thought this Vogue interview with SF mayor London Breed about the current wave of BLM activism is worth a read. I can understand why she feels frustrated with white liberals:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Francisco Mayor London Breed on Defunding the Police, White Activism, and Fighting for Her Community
> 
> 
> “I don’t care if you are a Black mayor or not,” Breed tells “Vogue.” “If you see what’s happening to Black people in comparison to any other race in San Francisco, and you aren’t making deliberate investments that will change the outcome, then why even be in this position?”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vogue.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "I have a real problem with the takeover of the movement by white people.
> 
> I want people to respect the opinions and feelings of Black people and allow us to decide what is in our best interest. I talk about the plan to reduce the police budget and reallocate those resources to the African American community, and a large number of non-Blacks reached out to tell me what I should do for the Black community. Then, they say what their community deserves because of their challenges as well. That really bothered me. The Black community [of San Francisco] is capable of speaking for ourselves and deciding what’s in our best interest."


thank you for posting this. I read the article a few times since I’m not as familiar with the issues. her statement about being a mayor that makes investments to change outcomes should of course apply to any mayor. I’m filipino, and I would guess that she‘s expressIng :  where were you all last year and all the years before George Floyd. And, now that you’ve finally had an epiphany, don’t tell me im not doing enough or should be doing something differently, bc you have no idea. Although the white progressives are arguably making. Her job harder not easier, at the same time, I can kind of imagine white progressives getting huffy that she doesn’t welcome their interventions.


----------



## dooneybaby

TraceySH said:


> No you need to re-read. The owner of the restaurant she used to work at is doing this. She works for me and is a wonderful person. Her friend, who still works at the restaurant, is struggling to pay off her debt.


And the owner of the restaurant is allowed to continue to do this? Anyone who knows this is going on has an obligation (especially as a U.S. citizen) to report this. You can't just stand by and allow human rights violations to go on. 
Yeah, these immigrants want to live in the U.S. for a better life. But this restaurant owner knows this and is using that to justify their own federal crimes.
Honestly, I'm sick.


----------



## dooneybaby

TraceySH said:


> It's a lot of stuff all put into a paragraph. I am sorry! It's been weighing on me. I have to figure out what to do.


In all fairness, I had to read it twice myself before I understood what was being said.


----------



## chicinthecity777

dooneybaby said:


> And the owner of the restaurant is allowed to continue to do this? Anyone who knows this is going on has an obligation (especially as a U.S. citizen) to report this. You can't just stand by and allow human rights violations to go on.
> Yeah, these immigrants want to live in the U.S. for a better life. But this restaurant owner knows this and is using that to justify their own federal crimes.
> Honestly, I'm sick.


It is sickening! The owner is a "snake head"!


----------



## TraceySH

dooneybaby said:


> And the owner of the restaurant is allowed to continue to do this? Anyone who knows this is going on has an obligation (especially as a U.S. citizen) to report this. You can't just stand by and allow human rights violations to go on.
> Yeah, these immigrants want to live in the U.S. for a better life. But this restaurant owner knows this and is using that to justify their own federal crimes.
> Honestly, I'm sick.


Agreed. This just happened. So I am gauging what to do. I also don’t want everyone there who has been victimized by this to be deported and/or charged with felonies for identity theft.


----------



## rutabaga

TraceySH said:


> I also don’t want everyone there who has been victimized by this to be deported and/or charged with felonies for identity theft.



So as if human trafficking isn't bad enough already there's identity theft involved too? As someone who had money and who knows what else stolen earlier this year from ID theft, I had no problem telling the banks I would gladly testify to prosecute the losers who stole my information and opened multiple accounts using my SSN.


----------



## TraceySH

i*bella said:


> So as if human trafficking isn't bad enough already there's identity theft involved too? As someone who had money and who knows what else stolen earlier this year from ID theft, I had no problem telling the banks I would gladly testify to prosecute the losers who stole my information and opened multiple accounts using my SSN.


I had the same thing happen as well. For many years 2 people were using my SSN unbeknownst to me. It was really difficult getting all that sorted out. So I think that's why they themselves don't report this man when they come over, is that he sort of "has them by the balls" if you know what I mean. Like    if you report me, I'll report you. I asked my husband about this, who has a lot of experience working with Mexican gangs, and he was like  , oh yeah. You'd be shocked how many people have this as a side hustle. And I was...shocked.


----------



## opensesame

i*bella said:


> So as if human trafficking isn't bad enough already there's identity theft involved too? As someone who had money and who knows what else stolen earlier this year from ID theft, I had no problem telling the banks I would gladly testify to prosecute the losers who stole my information and opened multiple accounts using my SSN.



How did you realize someone stole your ID/SSN? It’s very disturbing.


----------



## gracie05

opensesame said:


> How did you realize someone stole your ID/SSN? It’s very disturbing.


It is a good idea to monitor your credit quarterly (check once on each of the 3 major credit bureaus in the US). It will have a list of all loans/lines of credit you have open. Make sure you recognize all of them and that they look accurate.


----------



## opensesame

gracie05 said:


> It is a good idea to monitor your credit quarterly (check once on each of the 3 major credit bureaus in the US). It will have a list of all loans/lines of credit you have open. Make sure you recognize all of them and that they look accurate.



Thank you! I will do that!


----------



## dooneybaby

TraceySH said:


> Agreed. This just happened. So I am gauging what to do. I also don’t want everyone there who has been victimized by this to be deported and/or charged with felonies for identity theft.


That's not your problem. You do have an obligation to report a crime, especially when you can clearly see there are victims.
I do know that at least before the ***** administration, there were waivers given to some immigrants in the country illegally who had been victimized while here. 






						Immigration Options for Victims of Crimes | Homeland Security
					

U.S. law provides protections for legal and undocumented immigrants who have been crime victims: domestic violence, certain crimes, and human trafficking.




					www.dhs.gov
				



*Immigration Options for Victims of Crimes*

Many immigrants are fearful of admitting that they have been a victim of a crime in part because they believe they will be removed (deported) from the United States if they report the crime. U.S. law provides several protections for legal and undocumented immigrants who have been victims of a crime. There are specific protections for victims of domestic violence, victims of certain crimes, and victims of human trafficking.


----------



## Mimmy

TraceySH said:


> Agreed. This just happened. So I am gauging what to do. I also don’t want everyone there who has been victimized by this to be deported and/or charged with felonies for identity theft.





i*bella said:


> So as if human trafficking isn't bad enough already there's identity theft involved too? As someone who had money and who knows what else stolen earlier this year from ID theft, I had no problem telling the banks I would gladly testify to prosecute the losers who stole my information and opened multiple accounts using my SSN.





dooneybaby said:


> That's not your problem. You do have an obligation to report a crime, especially when you can clearly see there are victims.
> I do know that at least before the ***** administration, there were waivers given to some immigrants in the country illegally who had been victimized while here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immigration Options for Victims of Crimes | Homeland Security
> 
> 
> U.S. law provides protections for legal and undocumented immigrants who have been crime victims: domestic violence, certain crimes, and human trafficking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dhs.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Immigration Options for Victims of Crimes*
> 
> Many immigrants are fearful of admitting that they have been a victim of a crime in part because they believe they will be removed (deported) from the United States if they report the crime. U.S. law provides several protections for legal and undocumented immigrants who have been victims of a crime. There are specific protections for victims of domestic violence, victims of certain crimes, and victims of human trafficking.


@TraceySH I understand that you are hesitant to jeopardize immigrants who have already been victimized and are trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. What you now have knowledge of at minimum involves human trafficking and identity theft/fraud.

This needs to be reported.


----------



## TraceySH

Mimmy said:


> @TraceySH I understand that you are hesitant to jeopardize immigrants who have already been victimized and are trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. What you now have knowledge of at minimum involves human trafficking and identity theft/fraud.
> 
> This needs to be reported.


Working on it.


----------



## Megs

I'm really happy we've had this thread and been able to have many of you have really thoughtful discussions. Please remember that politics is not allowed on our forums, and comments that are political will get removed. If you see something, please report it or send me a quick message. 

Thanks everyone!


----------



## QuelleFromage

gracie05 said:


> It is a good idea to monitor your credit quarterly (check once on each of the 3 major credit bureaus in the US). It will have a list of all loans/lines of credit you have open. Make sure you recognize all of them and that they look accurate.


It's a little OT, but I freeze my credit. It's extra work because you have to open it for credit checks BUT no one can open cards and accounts in your name. At this point with the amount of ID theft out there I think it's the best practice.


----------



## Chanbal

dooneybaby said:


> To be "white passing" is a very different experience in itself. Many times you get the benefits of "white privilege," but could also be discriminated against if someone knows your last name.
> And I'm sure you've found yourself in situations where someone has made a disparaging comment about Hispanics, not realizing your ethnic background.
> It's an interesting position to be in.
> I found the story of this woman especially interesting:




I found the video rather disturbing, a lady that spent all her life hiding from her friends that her father had a different skin color pigmentation... 

If the color of her skin was white, why not have white written on her birth certificate? The physical characteristics should only be important for identification/description purposes imo. Why is skin color seen differently than hair or eye color? 'White passing' and 'white privilege' are expressions that shouldn't have a reason to exist.


----------



## sdkitty

Chanbal said:


> I found the video rather disturbing, a lady that spent all her life hiding from her friends that her father had a different skin color pigmentation...
> 
> If the color of her skin was white, why not have white written on her birth certificate? The physical characteristics should only be important for identification/description purposes imo. Why is skin color seen differently than hair or eye color? 'White passing' and 'white privilege' are expressions that shouldn't have a reason to exist.


these were different times
By "passing" as white she had white privilege
As far as the birth certificate, you can't tell what color a newborn is so I guess in those days if a baby was half black they were classified as black.  Don't know how that works now?  is there race on birth certs?  is there a mixed race option?


----------



## 880

gracie05 said:


> It is a good idea to monitor your credit quarterly (check once on each of the 3 major credit bureaus in the US). It will have a list of all loans/lines of credit you have open. Make sure you recognize all of them and that they look accurate.


I had to do this. You also file an FTC report on line; a bank report; and freeze everything (which requires some unfreezing if you need a credit line or something adjusted. You also go to the police precinct and file a report there. In my case, the bank reimbursed me as per usual; it happened again on a different acct number; they arreste the person, but of course she was just one of many lower criminals and the leadership of the ring (it was explained to me that they may have hundreds of. Ids or more) were not caught. The policeman who took my report said he was the victim of Id theft and you cannot change your S’s number bc no matte what happens you are responsible for it. . . So, in the end, I didn’t file the application to change my drivers license number either. . . i think equifax says they share with her other two bureaus in the US, but I was told to als file with them separately.

it was kind of bizarre, bc I don’t travel much even pre covid and my buying patterns are pretty uniform and I cannot imagine how my information was disseminated, but it’s common.


----------



## minnnea

880 said:


> —
> it was kind of bizarre, bc I don’t travel much even pre covid and my buying patterns are pretty uniform and I cannot imagine how my information was disseminated, but it’s common.


I point out often how badly personal data is stored everywhere and IMO this applies to all fields except officials and medical/pharmacy. When I have exchanged money they take my name and social security number on the receipt and put it on desk (window at mall, in the entrsnce), stores take your SSN and but the info filled sheet on a pile of paper that is protected by a plexiglass so anyone can see or steal. I cannot believe we have GDPR in the EU and no-one cares. I have also numerous times asked why my ID (number) is collected when it does not seem necessary and the answer is ”we must” which is not good enough when there actually is no valid reason. Not sure why bother gathering information that is not stored properly. Sorry for the rant and total OT but this really pisses me off.


----------



## papertiger

minnnea said:


> I point out often how badly personal data is stored everywhere and IMO this applies to all fields except officials and medical/pharmacy. When I have exchanged money they take my name and social security number on the receipt and put it on desk (window at mall, in the entrsnce), stores take your SSN and but the info filled sheet on a pile of paper that is protected by a plexiglass so anyone can see or steal. I cannot believe we have GDPR in the EU and no-one cares. I have also numerous times asked why my ID (number) is collected when it does not seem necessary and the answer is ”we must” which is not good enough when there actually is no valid reason. Not sure why bother gathering information that is not stored properly. Sorry for the rant and total OT but this really pisses me off.



I don'y think it's OT at all. Although this is a problem not only about individuals who steal our data for criminal activity. Our data/selection of choices 'like' and 'clics' /where we go are data-mined continually. 

We give lots of companies information including about our age, nationality, ethnicity/skin-colour all the time - who knows who's using/selling all this data now and in future. Even our phones are listening to us. 

I am noticing more and more how my research choices on my computer/phone have been narrowed in the past few years and that includes news stories and products 'they' think I'll be interested in (and they are usually soooo wrong). I don't want to have my news stories chosen for me and be guided by AI as to what to buy by what they think is my demographic and their sine wave. Doesn't matter  which search engine you use, these bots are constantly adding data for someone else to sell.


----------



## OneMoreDay

eunaddict said:


> OoF. While we're at it, can we stop with that as well? Asians aren't a homogenous group. Tatcha was created by an American of Taiwanese heritage (she claims it was a love letter to Japanese beauty traditions), saying at least the founder is of Asian descent is like going out for Italian food and saying "Well, at least the chef is of European descent." Hollywood and fashion have a long history of lumping all of Asia (similarly all of Africa) together as a group and going LOOK representation .
> 
> And it matters. There's a reason why Crazy Rich Asians was so lauded in Western countries but flopped in almost every Asian market that mattered (except Singapore, but even reviews there said it was more of curiosity about how the city-state was portrayed than anything else and even then it still didn't rake in the normal Hollywood movie revenue IIRC), speaking for my friends and I...we thought it was still pandering to Western audiences' expectations of what "Asian society" was like, and it was less a lauding of the "Asian" characters and more a flashy movie of how the 1% live. Like Wolf of Wall Street but pretending to be a little less shallow.


As an Asian woman, born and bred in Southeast Asia, the overly generous reception this movie had in the West (specifically America) never failed to make me laugh. 'True Asian Representation!' they cheered.  
They cast a Filipino actress (Kris Aquino who, fyi, is a scion of the Aquino political dynasty; daughter to President Cory Aquino and sister to President Noynoy Aquino) to play an "Indonesian princess", all while her fellow Filipinos were depicted as domestic servants waiting on Astrid and her shopping haul. No other Asians were actually depicted as part of those rich circles in Singapore of all places, let alone having any speaking roles. It's strictly a fantasy Cinderella story made for an East-Asian American audience. While that may not be an issue in and of itself, there are stereotypes about the Chinese being wealthy that are used to sow political divisions and incite racial hatred; stereotypes that basically demonise them and labels them as foreigners or outsiders even in the countries they've been living in for generations. As someone ethnically Chinese and raised middle class, the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I enjoyed the family dynamics and the 'traditions' and the female relationships, but it's an okay story built on progressive pandering that's anything but progressive.


----------



## OneMoreDay

I get it, Asians are the furthest thing from a homogeneous group and I can't expect Asian Americans (or specifically East-Asian Americans) to have the same experiences I do as a Southeast Asian. But America, in addition to its military strength and geopolitical hegemony, is also a cultural hegemony with the might of Hollywood, the big bucks, and the power of marquee movie star names. It has the capacity to wield cultural influence that projects its works as the only standard by which other stories can be told. With this enormous power comes tremendous responsibility to tell authentic and diverse experiences, which sadly never seems to be a priority. The rest world can get to know America, but America can never really get to know the rest of the world.


----------



## 880

OneMoreDay said:


> also a cultural hegemony with the might of Hollywood, the big bucks, and the power of marquee movie star names. It has the capacity to wield cultural influence that projects its works as the only standard by which other stories can be told. With this enormous power comes tremendous responsibility to tell authentic and diverse experiences, which sadly never seems to be a priority.


I was kind of thinking of this when I read an article in the NYT about the decision to keep the name of the Spokane Indians in a sports team. . . Sports, entertainment, fashion. . . Can an authentic and diverse experience be told.

quote:
Suzan Shown Harjo, an advocate for Native American rights who has led the fight against Indigenous team names and mascots in sports for decades, said no matter the good intent, the name should still be changed.
“There is no such thing as respectable treatment of any mascot or team name that has a native theme in sports,” she said. “There is just no such thing, no matter how you package it.”
The Cleveland Indians of Major League Baseball said they were having discussions about the “best path forward” regarding their name.
The Spokane Indians have had such talks, too, even volunteering to abandon the name 14 years ago but eventually deciding to keep it with the support of tribal leadership.
The Spokane Indians were founded in 1903 and are now a Class A affiliate of the Texas Rangers (an awkward and painful historical connection because the original Texas Rangers, a law enforcement division, were known to hunt down Native Americans). Decades ago, the Spokane team logo featured a grotesque caricature of a Native person. But there are no longer any such depictions associated with the team.
Since 2006, the team has actively engaged with the Spokane Tribe, many of whom live on a reservation about 40 miles from the city of Spokane. Meetings are held with government leaders at least once a year and the team has made several changes and innovations to their uniform design, stadium exhibits and cultural outreach programs, based on recommendations from the Spokane leaders.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/...mes-mascots.html?referringSource=articleShare


----------



## QuelleFromage

880 said:


> I was kind of thinking of this when I read an article in the NYT about the decision to keep the name of the Spokane Indians in a sports team. . . Sports, entertainment, fashion. . . Can an authentic and diverse experience be told.
> 
> quote:
> Suzan Shown Harjo, an advocate for Native American rights who has led the fight against Indigenous team names and mascots in sports for decades, said no matter the good intent, the name should still be changed.
> “There is no such thing as respectable treatment of any mascot or team name that has a native theme in sports,” she said. “There is just no such thing, no matter how you package it.”
> The Cleveland Indians of Major League Baseball said they were having discussions about the “best path forward” regarding their name.
> The Spokane Indians have had such talks, too, even volunteering to abandon the name 14 years ago but eventually deciding to keep it with the support of tribal leadership.
> The Spokane Indians were founded in 1903 and are now a Class A affiliate of the Texas Rangers (an awkward and painful historical connection because the original Texas Rangers, a law enforcement division, were known to hunt down Native Americans). Decades ago, the Spokane team logo featured a grotesque caricature of a Native person. But there are no longer any such depictions associated with the team.
> Since 2006, the team has actively engaged with the Spokane Tribe, many of whom live on a reservation about 40 miles from the city of Spokane. Meetings are held with government leaders at least once a year and the team has made several changes and innovations to their uniform design, stadium exhibits and cultural outreach programs, based on recommendations from the Spokane leaders.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/...mes-mascots.html?referringSource=articleShare



Thank you!
Despite the oft-used "BIPOC" (and that football team finally changing its name) there is little concern about Native rights or cultural appropriation (and as far as I can see, almost none outside the US). Again, referencing my experience on this forum and the fact that I was challenged - in this thread as well as elsewhere -  on whether "red men" is a racist term (clue: it is). For me "BIPOC" is just virtue signaling unless you are actually paying attention to indigenous peoples. And, if you really want to be horrified, take a look at police violence toward indigenous Australians.

Ok I'm outie again


----------



## opensesame

OneMoreDay said:


> As an Asian woman, born and bred in Southeast Asia, the overly generous reception this movie had in the West (specifically America) never failed to make me laugh. 'True Asian Representation!' they cheered.
> They cast a Filipino actress (Kris Aquino who, fyi, is a scion of the Aquino political dynasty; daughter to President Cory Aquino and sister to President Noynoy Aquino) to play an "Indonesian princess", all while her fellow Filipinos were depicted as domestic servants waiting on Astrid and her shopping haul. No other Asians were actually depicted as part of those rich circles in Singapore of all places, let alone having any speaking roles. It's strictly a fantasy Cinderella story made for an East-Asian American audience. While that may not be an issue in and of itself, there are stereotypes about the Chinese being wealthy that are used to sow political divisions and incite racial hatred; stereotypes that basically demonise them and labels them as foreigners or outsiders even in the countries they've been living in for generations. As someone ethnically Chinese and raised middle class, the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I enjoyed the family dynamics and the 'traditions' and the female relationships, but it's an okay story built on progressive pandering that's anything but progressive.



I haven’t seen the film (looked cheap), but I did enjoy what that book had on about Chinese-descendants in SE Asia versus Mainland Chinese. How wealth made in 1 single generation in mainland China dwarfs generational wealth held in SE Asia by the Chinese-descent, and the conflict it brings. I think the title of the book is misleading, because it’s not really about Asians, just the Chinese.


----------



## doni

sdkitty said:


> these were different times
> By "passing" as white she had white privilege
> As far as the birth certificate, you can't tell what color a newborn is so I guess in those days if a baby was half black they were classified as black.  Don't know how that works now?  is there race on birth certs?  is there a mixed race option?



Only in America, there is no such thing as a “half black” is it? Say, if your father is ”white” and your mother is African American, your mother is also part white (what’s the average white European an ancestry in African Americans? 25% or so right? Meaning so many have more than a quarter European ancestry). So any so-called half-black or mixed-race person is going to have more white/European ancestry than African... But the idea was if you were a child of a slave or tinted by black blood you were classified black, so that is an expression of racism. This just shows the complete randomness of race as a concept. It is only cultural. People are not half white, or  half black or quarter Asian. People have a grandfather who came from here and another who came from there and who were basically identical genetically.


----------



## Luv2Scoop

doni said:


> Only in America, there is no such thing as a “half black” is it? Say, if your father is ”white” and your mother is African American, your mother is also part white (what’s the average white European an ancestry in African Americans? 25% or so right? Meaning so many have more than a quarter European ancestry). So any so-called half-black or mixed-race person is going to have more white/European ancestry than African... But the idea was if you were a child of a slave or tinted by black blood you were classified black, so that is an expression of racism. This just shows the complete randomness of race as a concept. It is only cultural. People are not half white, or  half black or quarter Asian. People have a grandfather who came from here and another who came from there and who were basically identical genetically.


There is no such thing as half anything....people say 'half' to indicate each parent is of a different race. The amount of European ancestry will vary regardless of if the person is black, native american or asian....it's a toss up. One can't force how much they will inherit or choose their alleles.


----------



## Luv2Scoop

For those of you concerned about ID theft, one of the best thing you can do is run all of your e-mail addresses through haveibeenpwned_dot_com...I've had CC provider send me a new CC due to merchant breaches...but they don't tell you which merchant. At haveibeenpwned, you'll find out if any of your e-mail addresses have been part of a breach...if they are, then close the e-mail and create a new fresh one.


----------



## dooneybaby

doni said:


> Only in America, there is no such thing as a “half black” is it? Say, if your father is ”white” and your mother is African American, your mother is also part white (what’s the average white European an ancestry in African Americans? 25% or so right? Meaning so many have more than a quarter European ancestry). So any so-called half-black or mixed-race person is going to have more white/European ancestry than African... But the idea was if you were a child of a slave or tinted by black blood you were classified black, so that is an expression of racism. This just shows the complete randomness of race as a concept. It is only cultural. People are not half white, or  half black or quarter Asian. People have a grandfather who came from here and another who came from there and who were basically identical genetically.


"African American" is supposed to describe an American descendant of slaves, or ADOS. African American presumes that we're talking about a black person with some European ancestry as well. It's would be extremely rare to encounter a black descendant of slaves who has pure African ancestry. Even though I have some European ancestry, I am still black American or African American, which presumes I have some European ancestry. That's what separates us from many African people.
And yes, the concept is racist. It origins are from the One Drop Rule, which white Americans implemented to keep out a person who had even one black grandparent. I was a way to exclude.


----------



## Luv2Scoop

dooneybaby said:


> "African American" is supposed to describe an American descendant of slaves, or ADOS. African American presumes that we're talking about a black person with some European ancestry as well. It's would be extremely rare to encounter a black descendant of slaves who has pure African ancestry. Even though I have some European ancestry, I am still black American or African American, which presumes I have some European ancestry. That's what separates us from many African people.
> And yes, the concept is racist. It origins are from the One Drop Rule, which white Americans implemented to keep out a person who had even one black grandparent. I was a way to exclude.


Is that what it's suppose to described? Please don't take offense but who meets to make such determinations....I just tell people I'm black though really I'm brown and actually I'm of multiple races. It's great to know ones genetic background for health reasons but other than that, 'identification' has gotten so bureaucratic.


----------



## dooneybaby

Luv2Scoop said:


> Is that what it's suppose to described? Please don't take offense but who meets to make such determinations....I just tell people I'm black though really I'm brown and actually I'm of multiple races. It's great to know ones genetic background for health reasons but other than that, 'identification' has gotten so bureaucratic.


I don't take offense at all. The term African American was originally to describe the descendants of slaves or ADOS, which used to be called black Americans, and before that, Negroes. And most ADOS are not pure African. Because most of our slave ancestors were victims of rape, it's a given that we also have the DNA of the slave masters as well. That's just a given. 
I refer to myself as a black woman, but "black American" includes more than just ADOS. And more and more black Americans who are descendants of slaves are calling themselves ADOS as opposed to African American or black. It's a proud history, and I'm proud that my ancestors were able to survive the journey to America on a slave ship, survive years of enslavement and not only contribute to America but help build it, despite the lack of recognition they've received through the generations. 
If your genetic background isn't important to you then that's your personal choice. I actually find it quite interesting to look at a person and find out what their ethnic makeup is. It's something to embrace and to celebrate. And I just think it's pretty darn cool. It's only hate that has made it taboo.


----------



## sdkitty

dooneybaby said:


> I don't take offense at all. The term African American was originally to describe the descendants of slaves or ADOS, which used to be called black Americans, and before that, Negroes. And most ADOS are not pure African. Because most of our slave ancestors were victims of rape, it's a given that we also have the DNA of the slave masters as well. That's just a given.
> I refer to myself as a black woman, but "black American" includes more than just ADOS. And more and more black Americans who are descendants of slaves are calling themselves ADOS as opposed to African American or black. It's a proud history, and I'm proud that my ancestors were able to survive the journey to America on a slave ship, survive years of enslavement and not only contribute to America but help build it, despite the lack of recognition they've received through the generations.
> If your genetic background isn't important to you then that's your personal choice. I actually find it quite interesting to look at a person and find out what their ethnic makeup is. It's something to embrace and to celebrate. And I just think it's pretty darn cool. It's only hate that has made it taboo.


Ava DuVernay appeared on that show Finding Your Roots.  She, of course, had some European blood but she was relieved to find out she was basically "black"


----------



## Luv2Scoop

dooneybaby said:


> I don't take offense at all. The term African American was originally to describe the descendants of slaves or ADOS, which used to be called black Americans, and before that, Negroes. And most ADOS are not pure African. Because most of our slave ancestors were victims of rape, it's a given that we also have the DNA of the slave masters as well. That's just a given.
> I refer to myself as a black woman, but "black American" includes more than just ADOS. And more and more black Americans who are descendants of slaves are calling themselves ADOS as opposed to African American or black. It's a proud history, and I'm proud that my ancestors were able to survive the journey to America on a slave ship, survive years of enslavement and not only contribute to America but help build it, despite the lack of recognition they've received through the generations.
> If your genetic background isn't important to you then that's your personal choice. I actually find it quite interesting to look at a person and find out what their ethnic makeup is. It's something to embrace and to celebrate. And I just think it's pretty darn cool. It's only hate that has made it taboo.


I never heard of ADOS...but then TBH, all of the races I am have been victims of suppression of some type. I look at my gene pool and see survivors! A read a book some time ago detailing early immigration, essentially the thought was this "Whomever is the last off the boat to America becomes oppressed." For example, at some point it was terrible to be Irish, then Italian and so on....generally there is always someone trying to elevate themselves and to do so, they from oppress someone.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Megs said:


> Your post was deleted because the post you were responding to was deleted . Your post wasn't the problem, but the post you were quoting was violating our rules. If we remove a post, anyone that quotes that post has their post removed - it's just how we moderate because otherwise your response wouldn't make any sense there! Vlad and I are discussing even removing the name ***** from showing up, which would help combat political remarks across the forum that slip in here and there.
> 
> Remember, while many of us are US based, plenty on the forum are not US based. People around the world experience racism, this isn't just a US issue. Racism is experienced by so many people across the globe. I am really happy this thread has been one that's shared many points of views, discussed concerns, had questions answered, and hopefully been a meaningful conversation for many.



I understand. You want to try to please everyone. I think that’s your genuine nature and also your concern about offending members as a business owner.

But I had a post deleted that was responding to a “both sides” comment. The original post remains and equates Michelle O with Melania T. A birther. In a thread about racism. 

And on the same page as the post above a POC announced they had to leave this thread, and apparently this forum, but so far not one mod or admin has responded to her.

I believe there are no “both sides” in discussions and actions concerning racism. For me it’s impossible to stay neutral.


----------



## dooneybaby

Luv2Scoop said:


> I never heard of ADOS...but then TBH, all of the races I am have been victims of suppression of some type. I look at my gene pool and see survivors! A read a book some time ago detailing early immigration, essentially the thought was this "Whomever is the last off the boat to America becomes oppressed." For example, at some point it was terrible to be Irish, then Italian and so on....generally there is always someone trying to elevate themselves and to do so, they from oppress someone.


Black slaves were FORCED on that boat, and got here way before the first wave of immigrants, beginning in the 1880s. But it's interesting that with each immigrant group, black people were pushed further down. Yes, Italian and Irish immigrants were treated poorly when they first arrived, but eventually, they just became "white" with the rest of privileged America.


----------



## sdkitty

Luv2Scoop said:


> I never heard of ADOS...but then TBH, all of the races I am have been victims of suppression of some type. I look at my gene pool and see survivors! A read a book some time ago detailing early immigration, essentially the thought was this "Whomever is the last off the boat to America becomes oppressed." For example, at some point it was terrible to be Irish, then Italian and so on....generally there is always someone trying to elevate themselves and to do so, they from oppress someone.


yes, my parents were Irish and Italian.  both oppressed or looked down upon at one time.   In fact, my mother's Irish relatives had some derogatory things to say when she wanted to marry an Italian-American


----------



## sdkitty

dooneybaby said:


> Black slaves were FORCED on that boat, and got here way before the first wave of immigrants, beginning in the 1880s. But it's interesting that with each immigrant group, black people were pushed further down. Yes, Italian and Irish immigrants were treated poorly when they first arrived, but eventually, they just became "white" with the rest of privileged America.


true


----------



## Etriers

Human beings are tribal regardless of our race.  It is one of the lower aspects of our nature and what continues to get us in trouble throughout history oppressing those who (appear) to be in “tribes” outside of our own who look different, worship differently, live differently.  Essentially anyone or anything we fear, don’t understand or can use to our own greedy ends.  This is the reason for all slave trades, the genocide of the Canaanites (pre-history), the massacres of Ghengis Khan, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, let’s just say the entirety of the Dark Ages, any situation in history when one religious group or race has annihilated another, the destruction of Native American lands and people and their confinement to reservations, the Yaqui uprising, the Salem Witch hunts, WWI and mustard gas, the internment of Japanese American citizens during WWII, the Sandakan death marches, Nazi Concentration camps, the horrific sexual mutilation of women, genocide in Africa, the abuse of animals, the wanton destruction of nature and the environment and our refusal to protect it, and the list goes on.  Every race has participated, every creed, every color, rich and poor, old and young, male and female, and we’ve been doing it since the Neanderthals.

Until we can become enlightened as a species and grow in love for all living things, realizing that we are all—every human of every color, every animal, every plant and every facet of the universe—connected inextricably, we will continue to squabble and fight.  Unfortunately, never understanding that because of our deep connection, when we harm any part of the whole, we harm ourselves.

To focus on whether fashion is “Exclusive,” or whether certain labels should be more accessible doesn’t begin to skim the fundamental issues.  There’s nothing wrong with being rich or having nice things or even having things your neighbor may not have (or want!).  That’s called freedom.  The issue is being able to do that without anyone getting hurt, and with those throughout the supply chain, including the animals, the environment, the farmers, and those who are producing the fashion being treated fairly and respectfully.  That’s called kindness and responsibility.  If we embrace THOSE values individually and as a planet and vote—both literally at election time, and “with our feet” when we shop, the rest will sort itself out.


----------



## papertiger

sdkitty said:


> yes, my parents were Irish and Italian.  both oppressed or looked down upon at one time.   In fact, my mother's Irish relatives had some derogatory things to say when she wanted to marry an Italian-American



The Irish were absolutely derided in England until very recently. Even in the 1970s (or especially in the 1970s) they were never allowed to forget they were Irish.


----------



## sdkitty

papertiger said:


> The Irish were absolutely derided in England until very recently. Even in the 1970s (or especially in the 1970s) they were never allowed to forget they were Irish.


well, my mother was an Irish immigrant and she didn't have much love for the English


----------



## Luv2Scoop

dooneybaby said:


> Black slaves were FORCED on that boat, and got here way before the first wave of immigrants, beginning in the 1880s. But it's interesting that with each immigrant group, black people were pushed further down. Yes, Italian and Irish immigrants were treated poorly when they first arrived, but eventually, they just became "white" with the rest of privileged America.


True, they were forced on the various boats....and across Europe, classism created issues for other 'white' people hence the move to this continent now called North America. What about the The Chinese Exclusion Act and what that did to the Chinese men working on the railroads? Also the indigenous people of South America and Philippines names were taken away and replaced with European names from Spain and Portugal.

Sadly throughout human history slavery has been a problem, look no further than the ancient world powers of Egypt and Rome. They were built and maintained on the backs of people they 'conquer'. Slavery has touched everyone in some way.


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## lalame

So interesting to see the conversation around Tatcha. To be honest, I've always found Tatcha to be a bit creepy and fetishistic - both in regards to the founder not being Japanese herself but also making the image so "exotically" Japanese, if that makes sense. Their marketing and image always seemed to be like a western fantasy of Japan. It gives me the creeps, but I certainly don't judge anyone for liking their products.

Crazy Rich Asians is a tough one for me. I didn't like the movie because I generally don't like those types of movies, but I was happy to see this perspective of Asian experience. It's not really one that's commonly shown, at least in the US. I don't think they included EVERYONE to be fully representative, but that's a pretty high bar. Would anyone judge Bridget Jones Diary for not showing the total British experience, from different regions, to clans, to ethnicities, to diaspora? No... it's just a silly rom-com at the end of the day about one small experience. Sometimes I think we hold ethnic initiatives to such a high, impossible-to-hit bar because we pin all our hopes and dreams on the little we get... it's a shame, because I think the overall progress is moving towards more, different representation. It's just taking a little time.


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## lalame

Also, I do believe in general the idea that only white people can be "racist" in the technical definition, due to the power dynamics. But I think it's also a very western-centric view. At a macro-level, yes, white people have in general held the most power on the global stage. But there are many cultures out there that have suffered the same historical traumas at the hands of non-white people, and for generations or even centuries the "white people" to them were a different ethnicity in their region. So I think it's problematic in a global forum to dismiss the notion that POC can be racist.


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## 880

Saw this article and thought of our thread here In case anyone is interested in reading. Thought it was interesting how POC viewed their own standards of beauty. In the Philippines,  where most are a shade of brown, being whiter is considered more beautiful like many other areas in the world. Growing up in NY, i was one of very few darker skinned students at the schools I attended, and the standards of beauty we’re definitely Caucasian. ( although I am filipino, not African American, the quote below from the 12 yr old student definitely resonatedWhen I was growing up).
Quote:
Brathwaite’s images have inspired many to see and photograph themselves free from Western expectations. And Kwame Jr believes his father’s work will continue to inspire people, joking that he is of course biased, but that his encounters and the stories he has been told make it hard to think otherwise. “I did a talk at a local high school in LA three years ago, and a woman came up to me and said, ‘I want you to tell your father, thank you, because, I was 12 years old when I heard of him, and up until that point, I never considered myself beautiful.’”
Kwame Brathwaite: Black is Beautiful is at the Columbia Museum of Art until 6 September, the book of the exhibition and The New Black Vanguard are published by Aperture.
The birth of the Black is Beautiful movement http://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200730-the-birth-of-the-black-is-beautiful-movement


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## sdkitty

880 said:


> Saw this article and thought of our thread here. Thought it was interesting how POC viewed their own standards of beauty. In the Philippines,  where most are a shade of brown, being whiter is considered more beautiful like many other areas in the world. Growing up in NY, i was one of very few darker skinned students at the schools I attended, and the standards of beauty we’re definitely Caucasian.
> Quote:
> Brathwaite’s images have inspired many to see and photograph themselves free from Western expectations. And Kwame Jr believes his father’s work will continue to inspire people, joking that he is of course biased, but that his encounters and the stories he has been told make it hard to think otherwise. “I did a talk at a local high school in LA three years ago, and a woman came up to me and said, ‘I want you to tell your father, thank you, because, I was 12 years old when I heard of him, and up until that point, I never considered myself beautiful.’”
> Kwame Brathwaite: Black is Beautiful is at the Columbia Museum of Art until 6 September, the book of the exhibition and The New Black Vanguard are published by Aperture.
> The birth of the Black is Beautiful movement http://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200730-the-birth-of-the-black-is-beautiful-movement
> I knew of a woman (didn't know her personally) Filipina - who didn't want to allow her small children to play outside as it would darken their skin.  Teaching them that their color was a negative thing.  I thought that was sad.


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## Christina48576

I thought this was really interesting! I haven't shopped much during the pandemic (because I'm really just hanging around in sweatpants) but I will definitely keep it in mind for the future:









						Does a Brand’s Ethos Matter When Shopping? - PurseBlog
					

For decades, we’ve been buying products based on their form and function: we’ve been wearing clothes that look and make us feel good, we’ve been driving cars that meet our lifestyle needs…




					www.purseblog.com


----------



## 880

Thank you Christina48576 for the link above. Didn’t know that about Anthropologie and a few other brands. I also read In BBC about a 21 year old jade miner nearly dying, so now I’m thinking a jade cuff may not be in my future either. my shopping habits tend to be cyclical, and I’m shopping more now due to boredom. . . But I am trying shop my values, buy more mindfully and sustainably And this helps!


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## OneMoreDay

lalame said:


> Crazy Rich Asians is a tough one for me. I didn't like the movie because I generally don't like those types of movies, but I was happy to see this perspective of Asian experience. It's not really one that's commonly shown, at least in the US. I don't think they included EVERYONE to be fully representative, but that's a pretty high bar. Would anyone judge Bridget Jones Diary for not showing the total British experience, from different regions, to clans, to ethnicities, to diaspora? No... it's just a silly rom-com at the end of the day about one small experience. Sometimes I think we hold ethnic initiatives to such a high, impossible-to-hit bar because we pin all our hopes and dreams on the little we get... it's a shame, because I think the overall progress is moving towards more, different representation. It's just taking a little time.


Our Southeast Asian culture was being sold on the premise of 'representation'. That's my gripe. A movie about Crazy Rich Southeast Asian Chinese being sold to Americans on this premise, and sold back to its Southeast Asian audience with the same premise still attached is quite laughable and somewhat insulting. I have a few problems with it being called Crazy Rich Asians but it being marketed towards in the US where 'Asians' tend to be a catchall term for East-Asians, I can't necessarily call it out on that front alone.

I have no problem with Bridget Jones with because it's not selling me anything. It's a mainstream white rom-com that doesn't pretend to be anything else. I love a Cinderella story or a lame rom-com as much as anyone. I would love to have stories not centered around conversations about racial trauma, or racial stereotypes or what have you. I would love not to have this conversation at all because it's exhausting to constantly have these conversations. But if you're going to sell me a movie based on racial representation, I expect you to at least be honest in its making. Frankly, I have more respect for works that don't market themselves on that basis and yet its racially diverse cast are portraying storylines that don't revolve around race.

Singapore is diverse, even for Southeast Asia (I'm not even mentioning the controversies of the main cast having mixed race Eurasian actors that aren't even mixed Chinese playing Singaporean-Chinese characters). And yet not only do other ethnicities not have speaking roles, they're only depicted as the help. The one non-Chinese speaking role isn't even the race she's portraying. Why did Kris Aquino of all people have to be cast as an Indonesian Princess? She's a Crazy Rich daughter of a Filipino political dynasty. The other Filipino actor (Nic Santos) they cast plays a Chinese person, the hero's second cousin.

Meanwhile, Filipinos are represented in the story as the non-speaking help (maybe they said 'Yes, ma'am.' idk, but that's the extent of it). My Filipino mother was a domestic helper. She's never grown out of needing to be constantly working. She and her sisters had to stop school to help work the farm while the boys got to continue with their education. She had to find work overseas to support the whole family of 7 or 8 kids and send the youngest boy to college (the first in our family). Her father (my grandfather) died while she was away and she couldn't go back for his funeral. Imagine then, your ethnicity being portrayed in a Cinderella tale marketed as progressive and representative, without any semblance of agency or dignity, while your fellow countrymen get to play other races in order to be able to move in privileged circles. Imagine being told just to be satisfied with being represented at all, rather than have no representation.

I would've enjoyed Crazy Rich Asians as the okay movie that it is if all these things weren't things that were glaringly obvious to any Southeast Asians (the author is Southeast Asian, as are members of the cast), things that could and should've been thought of during the production or pre-production process. But all this is telling me, is that we were an afterthought to an American audience. That our culture could be packaged and sold as a product without considering its people. This is what I mean by authenticity, or in this case, the lack of it.


----------



## OneMoreDay

880 said:


> Saw this article and thought of our thread here In case anyone is interested in reading. Thought it was interesting how POC viewed their own standards of beauty. In the Philippines,  where most are a shade of brown, being whiter is considered more beautiful like many other areas in the world. Growing up in NY, i was one of very few darker skinned students at the schools I attended, and the standards of beauty we’re definitely Caucasian. ( although I am filipino, not African American, the quote below from the 12 yr old student definitely resonatedWhen I was growing up).
> Quote:
> Brathwaite’s images have inspired many to see and photograph themselves free from Western expectations. And Kwame Jr believes his father’s work will continue to inspire people, joking that he is of course biased, but that his encounters and the stories he has been told make it hard to think otherwise. “I did a talk at a local high school in LA three years ago, and a woman came up to me and said, ‘I want you to tell your father, thank you, because, I was 12 years old when I heard of him, and up until that point, I never considered myself beautiful.’”
> Kwame Brathwaite: Black is Beautiful is at the Columbia Museum of Art until 6 September, the book of the exhibition and The New Black Vanguard are published by Aperture.
> The birth of the Black is Beautiful movement http://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200730-the-birth-of-the-black-is-beautiful-movement


Lighter coloured skin in Asia has been the beauty standard for centuries and has little to do with Western 'whiteness' as a beauty ideal and is more of a classist ideal. In Chinese and East Asian cultures, lighter skin meant you were upper class or moved in upper class circles. Having your children be lightskinned meant some level of association with wealth. In the Philippines, it predates Spanish colonialisation, although colorism was more pronounced after their arrival given their intermarrying with the locals produced Mestizo/mestiza children (typically, the term shouldn't denote lighter skin tone alone, but rather the mixed ancestry). Moreno/morena would describe someone with tanned or dark skin.


----------



## lalame

OneMoreDay said:


> Our Southeast Asian culture was being sold on the premise of 'representation'. That's my gripe. A movie about Crazy Rich Southeast Asian Chinese being sold to Americans on this premise, and sold back to its Southeast Asian audience with the same premise still attached is quite laughable and somewhat insulting. I have a few problems with it being called Crazy Rich Asians but it being marketed towards in the US where 'Asians' tend to be a catchall term for East-Asians, I can't necessarily call it out on that front alone.
> 
> I have no problem with Bridget Jones with because it's not selling me anything. It's a mainstream white rom-com that doesn't pretend to be anything else. I love a Cinderella story or a lame rom-com as much as anyone. I would love to have stories not centered around conversations about racial trauma, or racial stereotypes or what have you. I would love not to have this conversation at all because it's exhausting to constantly have these conversations. But if you're going to sell me a movie based on racial representation, I expect you to at least be honest in its making. Frankly, I have more respect for works that don't market themselves on that basis and yet its racially diverse cast are portraying storylines that don't revolve around race.
> 
> Singapore is diverse, even for Southeast Asia (I'm not even mentioning the controversies of the main cast having mixed race Eurasian actors that aren't even mixed Chinese playing Singaporean-Chinese characters). And yet not only do other ethnicities not have speaking roles, they're only depicted as the help. The one non-Chinese speaking role isn't even the race she's portraying. Why did Kris Aquino of all people have to be cast as an Indonesian Princess? She's a Crazy Rich daughter of a Filipino political dynasty. The other Filipino actor (Nic Santos) they cast plays a Chinese person, the hero's second cousin.
> 
> Meanwhile, Filipinos are represented in the story as the non-speaking help (maybe they said 'Yes, ma'am.' idk, but that's the extent of it). My Filipino mother was a domestic helper. She's never grown out of needing to be constantly working. She and her sisters had to stop school to help work the farm while the boys got to continue with their education. She had to find work overseas to support the whole family of 7 or 8 kids and send the youngest boy to college (the first in our family). Her father (my grandfather) died while she was away and she couldn't go back for his funeral. Imagine then, your ethnicity being portrayed in a Cinderella tale marketed as progressive and representative, without any semblance of agency or dignity, while your fellow countrymen get to play other races in order to be able to move in privileged circles. Imagine being told just to be satisfied with being represented at all, rather than have no representation.
> 
> I would've enjoyed Crazy Rich Asians as the okay movie that it is if all these things weren't things that were glaringly obvious to any Southeast Asians (the author is Southeast Asian, as are members of the cast), things that could and should've been thought of during the production or pre-production process. But all this is telling me, is that we were an afterthought to an American audience. That our culture could be packaged and sold as a product without considering its people. This is what I mean by authenticity, or in this case, the lack of it.



I agree with you they should match actors’ ethnicities with the character. I had forgotten about that aspect of it - I didn’t know about the actors you mentioned but it did occur to me with the woman who played Araminta. That being said I am conflicted because there are so few roles for Asians out there as it is that I am happy to see more get the opportunity and I’m not sure many would if for example a Filipino person could ONLY play Filipino. Whereas white actors don’t get much slack for playing across cultures (eg British playing French). I’m totally of two minds on this, so i am not even disagreeing with you... this is my other mind on it. Ideally it would be totally ethnic appropriate and there would be enough roles to support more diverse talent. It was an opportunity missed for the director.


----------



## chicinthecity777

sdkitty said:


> yes, my parents were Irish and Italian.  both oppressed or looked down upon at one time.   In fact, my mother's Irish relatives had some derogatory things to say when she wanted to marry an Italian-American


I SO's parents were born in Ireland and came to the UK when they were 18 and built a life here. His Dad said the "good old" days the Irish were very much discriminated against in the UK. There were pubs with signs outside the door saying Irish people were not permitted to enter.


----------



## papertiger

chicinthecity777 said:


> I SO's parents were born in Ireland and came to the UK when they were 18 and built a life here. His Dad said the "good old" days the Irish were very much discriminated against in the UK. There were pubs with signs outside the door saying Irish people were not permitted to enter.



They had to find their own pubs, which were again divided into Catholic OR Protestant, and then there were the Welsh! Bl**dy minefield.


----------



## chicinthecity777

OneMoreDay said:


> Lighter coloured skin in Asia has been the beauty standard for centuries and has little to do with Western 'whiteness' as a beauty ideal and is more of a classist ideal. *In Chinese and East Asian cultures, lighter skin meant you were upper class or moved in upper class circles.* Having your children be lightskinned meant some level of association with wealth. In the Philippines, it predates Spanish colonialisation, although colorism was more pronounced after their arrival given their intermarrying with the locals produced Mestizo/mestiza children (typically, the term shouldn't denote lighter skin tone alone, but rather the mixed ancestry). Moreno/morena would describe someone with tanned or dark skin.


Yes! In the old days, having a lighter skin means that you don't need to do hard labour under the sun, e.g. working in paddy fields.


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## sdkitty

chicinthecity777 said:


> I SO's parents were born in Ireland and came to the UK when they were 18 and built a life here. His Dad said the "good old" days the Irish were very much discriminated against in the UK. There were pubs with signs outside the door saying Irish people were not permitted to enter.


I guess a lot of it had to do with Northern Ireland and religion


----------



## doni

[


sdkitty said:


> I guess a lot of it had to do with Northern Ireland and religion


I think it had more to do with being poor and rural. Isn’t that often the case?

I do believe it is not really fair to compare the fate of Irish and Italian emigrants in the US (or the UK), terrible as that may have been, with what went on under slavery. The Irish may have been asked to use a different pub, and the Italians may have been ridiculed and belittled. But neither were denied the simple right to father and name their own children and build strong families that would offer support through hardship. Neither were deprived from their human nature to be subject to the laws applying to cows and goats. The slavery of Africans in the Americas is one of the most horrific things humankind has done.


----------



## tuowei

chicinthecity777 said:


> Yes! In the old days, having a lighter skin means that you don't need to do hard labour under the sun, e.g. working in paddy fields.


Yes, and I was taught that being plump was the ideal in some dynasties because it meant having enough to eat to be plump.


----------



## sdkitty

doni said:


> [
> 
> I think it had more to do with being poor and rural. Isn’t that often the case?
> 
> I do believe it is not really fair to compare the fate of Irish and Italian emigrants in the US (or the UK), terrible as that may have been, with what went on under slavery. The Irish may have been asked to use a different pub, and the Italians may have been ridiculed and belittled. But neither were denied the simple right to father and name their own children and build strong families that would offer support through hardship. Neither were deprived from their human nature to be subject to the laws applying to cows and goats. The slavery of Africans in the Americas is one of the most horrific things humankind has done.


you're right....I agree slavery is the worst
however, while you may have a point about the poor and rural part, I do think the Northern Island part was very significant too....that "war" went on for many years


----------



## chicinthecity777

doni said:


> [
> 
> I think it had more to do with being poor and rural. Isn’t that often the case?
> 
> I do believe it is not really fair to compare the fate of Irish and Italian emigrants in the US (or the UK), terrible as that may have been, with what went on under slavery. The Irish may have been asked to use a different pub, and the Italians may have been ridiculed and belittled. But neither were denied the simple right to father and name their own children and build strong families that would offer support through hardship. Neither were deprived from their human nature to be subject to the laws applying to cows and goats. *The slavery of Africans in the Americas is one of the most horrific things humankind has done.*


So are the wars between the settlers and native Americans, the genocides in Africa, the middle east, east Europe and parts of Asia etc etc.


----------



## sdkitty

chicinthecity777 said:


> So are the wars between the settlers and native Americans, the genocides in Africa, the middle east, east Europe and parts of Asia etc etc.


we could get started on Native Americans....they really got the shaft


----------



## tuowei

OneMoreDay said:


> I get it, Asians are the furthest thing from a homogeneous group and I can't expect Asian Americans (or specifically East-Asian Americans) to have the same experiences I do as a Southeast Asian. But America, in addition to its military strength and geopolitical hegemony, is also a cultural hegemony with the might of Hollywood, the big bucks, and the power of marquee movie star names. ...


Some years ago I foolishly decided to have an exchange in the comments section of Purseblog and was "school(ed)". Your comment reminded me of it and I hope it gives you a laugh.
(P/S: I find linguistics fascinating but it is not my area and I am forever learning. My understanding of the definition of racism includes 1.0 Prejudice 2.0 systemic racism and 3.0 social differences founded on race, but I only included the Miriam Webster 1.0 definition in this exchange)


----------



## OneMoreDay

chicinthecity777 said:


> Yes! In the old days, having a lighter skin means that you don't need to do hard labour under the sun, e.g. working in paddy fields.


My mother toiled in the paddy fields with her family and their beauty ideal was always light skin. No one in Asia looks at a white person and thinks 'I want white skin'. Most Asian people (Chinese, Filipino, Indian, Malay, Thai, etc) look at their lighter toned brothers and sisters and say 'I want their lighter skin-tone'. If you look at the big names in Filipino showbusiness, they're usually lightskinned. East Asian entertainment is dominated by porcelain coloured skin-tones while anyone with a tan stands out. Pick any upper class social circle in Asia and they'll usually have light skin. Strikingly, quite a number of Asian royals and their extended family members don't seem to care as much about skin tone, having tans from outdoor pursuits like polo, or sailing around on yachts, etc. I'm guessing since they're already at the top of the social hierarchy, they aren't concerned about skin-tone.


----------



## minnnea

sdkitty said:


> we could get started on Native Americans....they really got the shaft


 
Natives I believe all over where there were ”white men”. In Scandinavia/Russia the Sami people.


----------



## chicinthecity777

sdkitty said:


> we could get started on Native Americans....they really got the shaft


They really did, didn't they?


----------



## chicinthecity777

minnnea said:


> Natives I believe all over where there were ”white men”. In Scandinavia/Russia the Sami people.


I watched a Swedish series and the story was related to Sami people. I never knew this until I watched it. And they firmly believed that they were shafted in Sweden. It was a really sad story.


----------



## OneMoreDay

tuowei said:


> Some years ago I foolishly decided to have an exchange in the comments section of Purseblog and was "school(ed)". Your comment reminded me of it and I hope it gives you a laugh.
> (P/S: I find linguistics fascinating but it is not my area and I am forever learning. My understanding of the definition of racism includes 1.0 Prejudice 2.0 systemic racism and 3.0 social differences founded on race, but I only included the Miriam Webster 1.0 definition in this exchange)
> 
> View attachment 4810388
> 
> 
> View attachment 4810395


That's...wow.


----------



## lalame

tuowei said:


> Some years ago I foolishly decided to have an exchange in the comments section of Purseblog and was "school(ed)". Your comment reminded me of it and I hope it gives you a laugh.
> (P/S: I find linguistics fascinating but it is not my area and I am forever learning. My understanding of the definition of racism includes 1.0 Prejudice 2.0 systemic racism and 3.0 social differences founded on race, but I only included the Miriam Webster 1.0 definition in this exchange)
> 
> View attachment 4810388
> 
> 
> View attachment 4810395



TBH I don't think either of you are technically wrong but you're not meeting in the pretty sensible middle ground which is a nation is sometimes considered an identifier for race and sometimes it isn't. The US is one obvious example where it doesn't.

I don't think either you or this person had bad intentions (of course can't know for sure) but I'm struck by seeing these types of arguments happening all the time on social media. It's like battle of the semantics among two well-meaning, educated people who at the end of the day both treat others with respect. And then somehow we end up on the opposite sides of the cause instead of both advancing it together. I'm not picking on you, it's just a thought I've had a lot lately. I've had similar arguments with people myself.


----------



## Luv2Scoop

OneMoreDay said:


> Our Southeast Asian culture was being sold on the premise of 'representation'. That's my gripe. A movie about Crazy Rich Southeast Asian Chinese being sold to Americans on this premise, and sold back to its Southeast Asian audience with the same premise still attached is quite laughable and somewhat insulting. I have a few problems with it being called Crazy Rich Asians but it being marketed towards in the US where 'Asians' tend to be a catchall term for East-Asians, I can't necessarily call it out on that front alone.
> 
> I have no problem with Bridget Jones with because it's not selling me anything. It's a mainstream white rom-com that doesn't pretend to be anything else. I love a Cinderella story or a lame rom-com as much as anyone. I would love to have stories not centered around conversations about racial trauma, or racial stereotypes or what have you. I would love not to have this conversation at all because it's exhausting to constantly have these conversations. But if you're going to sell me a movie based on racial representation, I expect you to at least be honest in its making. Frankly, I have more respect for works that don't market themselves on that basis and yet its racially diverse cast are portraying storylines that don't revolve around race.
> 
> Singapore is diverse, even for Southeast Asia (I'm not even mentioning the controversies of the main cast having mixed race Eurasian actors that aren't even mixed Chinese playing Singaporean-Chinese characters). And yet not only do other ethnicities not have speaking roles, they're only depicted as the help. The one non-Chinese speaking role isn't even the race she's portraying. Why did Kris Aquino of all people have to be cast as an Indonesian Princess? She's a Crazy Rich daughter of a Filipino political dynasty. The other Filipino actor (Nic Santos) they cast plays a Chinese person, the hero's second cousin.
> 
> Meanwhile, Filipinos are represented in the story as the non-speaking help (maybe they said 'Yes, ma'am.' idk, but that's the extent of it). My Filipino mother was a domestic helper. She's never grown out of needing to be constantly working. She and her sisters had to stop school to help work the farm while the boys got to continue with their education. She had to find work overseas to support the whole family of 7 or 8 kids and send the youngest boy to college (the first in our family). Her father (my grandfather) died while she was away and she couldn't go back for his funeral. Imagine then, your ethnicity being portrayed in a Cinderella tale marketed as progressive and representative, without any semblance of agency or dignity, while your fellow countrymen get to play other races in order to be able to move in privileged circles. Imagine being told just to be satisfied with being represented at all, rather than have no representation.
> 
> I would've enjoyed Crazy Rich Asians as the okay movie that it is if all these things weren't things that were glaringly obvious to any Southeast Asians (the author is Southeast Asian, as are members of the cast), things that could and should've been thought of during the production or pre-production process. But all this is telling me, is that we were an afterthought to an American audience. That our culture could be packaged and sold as a product without considering its people. This is what I mean by authenticity, or in this case, the lack of it.


Refreshing post and spot on. I went watched CRA and laughed mostly because I have more than enough awareness of who's who in Asia. I thought it aligned to some of the american movies I've seen laden with sterotypes and actors/actresses chosen that are easy to accept. TBH, I was surprised it was produced given what I thought was a great awareness of avoiding sterotypes. I think most people would conclude as I did "Ok so this is suppose to be the Chinese equivalent of the Cali rich, Rodeo Drive, Calabasas etc."


----------



## Luv2Scoop

doni said:


> [
> 
> I think it had more to do with being poor and rural. Isn’t that often the case?
> 
> I do believe it is not really fair to compare the fate of Irish and Italian emigrants in the US (or the UK), terrible as that may have been, with what went on under slavery. The Irish may have been asked to use a different pub, and the Italians may have been ridiculed and belittled. But neither were denied the simple right to father and name their own children and build strong families that would offer support through hardship. Neither were deprived from their human nature to be subject to the laws applying to cows and goats. The slavery of Africans in the Americas is one of the most horrific things humankind has done.


I truly do believe the Slavery of Africans was horrific. However, what happened to Native Americans was also horrific, they've never recovered. Yes, reservations are a part of my heritage. I'm a product of enough of the horrific happening in America but thankfully, I was raised to see there is a general problem in humanity of subjugating other humans. What happened in Nazi Germany.....that too is horrific. I'm not going to detail those horrors as I've never forgotten the documentaries I watched. One more thing I'll say regarding the tactics used against the slaves brought there; they are the tactics that have been used by the military for 1000s of years...separating families, breaks a society. Taking away male children, impacts procreation. 

Anytime a humans are treated poorly for any reason it's bad....I just can't slice and dice it. IMHO, it's a global issue that has transpired across the span of human existence.


----------



## doni

Luv2Scoop said:


> I truly do believe the Slavery of Africans was horrific. However, what happened to Native Americans was also horrific, they've never recovered.


I agree, equally horrific and even less well known I have the impression. The holocaust as well. They are all comparable and it is no point ascertaining whether one is worse than the other. They all have in common that they were made possible by culture systems that managed to institutionally dehumanize the victims thus suppressing empathy towards them.

Still, I think those were peak levels of cruelty and inhuman behavior that are not the same than the treatment dispensed to late emigrants in the US where extermination or ownership were never the goal. That was the usual ”you are different _and_ weaker so I am going to reinforce my power position by treating you badly” (as opposed to: we don’t even share a human condition so as a society, I make it the law to do with you whatever I want). Two things being bad doesn’t make them the same. Putting all bads in the same basket risks diluting the impact of certain types of horror, or the far reaching consequences of specific actions. I think this is at the heart of how the Germans have been successful (all things considered) in dealing with the holocaust.


----------



## lalame

doni said:


> Still, I think those were peak levels of cruelty and inhuman behavior that are not the same than the treatment dispensed to late emigrants in the US where extermination or ownership were never the goal. That was the usual ”you are different _and_ weaker so I am going to reinforce my power position by treating you badly” (as opposed to: we don’t even share a human condition so as a society, I make it the law to do with you whatever I want). Two things being bad doesn’t make them the same. Putting all bads in the same basket risks diluting the impact of certain types of horror, or the far reaching consequences of specific actions. I think this is at the heart of how the Germans have been successful (all things considered) in dealing with the holocaust.



I like how you put this. I agree and it's so hard to explain this to people why it can be so offensive to say "Slavery is horrific. But other people suffered terrible things too." Those 2 statements are true, but that "but ___ too" is what makes it a little offensive as a response to a discussion about one group's struggle. Each group, tragedy, illness, or any negative traumatic event deserves to be discussed or honored in its own spotlight. It's also just a matter of respect when you're talking to a person who has suffered directly. If your loved one came down with terminal lung cancer, you wouldn't say to them, "but other people get cancer all the time too... it's not just you" or "worst things have happened to other people." It's just insensitive. Everyone has likely suffered their fair share of tragedies and heartbreaks, but it shouldn't prevent us from still sympathizing with someone else's without any type of comparison.

Btw I'm not directing that at anyone here... I haven't been following enough to know if someone has or hasn't done this in this thread so pls don't take offense either way!


----------



## tuowei

lalame said:


> TBH I don't think either of you are technically wrong but you're not meeting in the pretty sensible middle ground which is a nation is sometimes considered an identifier for race and sometimes it isn't. The US is one obvious example where it doesn't.
> 
> I don't think either you or this person had bad intentions (of course can't know for sure) but I'm struck by seeing these types of arguments happening all the time on social media. It's like battle of the semantics among two well-meaning, educated people who at the end of the day both treat others with respect. And then somehow we end up on the opposite sides of the cause instead of both advancing it together. I'm not picking on you, it's just a thought I've had a lot lately. I've had similar arguments with people myself.


Thank you for your opinion. I agree that nations are sometimes an identifier for race and sometimes not. Its the absolute rejection that it can that I disagreed with. And the idea that all east Asians are one race that probably comes from a western centric view of the world. And the ad hominems. 
You've been nothing but respectful in your reply and your different reading of the exchange is accepted in good spirit


----------



## doni

OneMoreDay said:


> My mother toiled in the paddy fields with her family and their beauty ideal was always light skin. No one in Asia looks at a white person and thinks 'I want white skin'. Most Asian people (Chinese, Filipino, Indian, Malay, Thai, etc) look at their lighter toned brothers and sisters and say 'I want their lighter skin-tone'. If you look at the big names in Filipino showbusiness, they're usually lightskinned. East Asian entertainment is dominated by porcelain coloured skin-tones while anyone with a tan stands out. Pick any upper class social circle in Asia and they'll usually have light skin. Strikingly, quite a number of Asian royals and their extended family members don't seem to care as much about skin tone, having tans from outdoor pursuits like polo, or sailing around on yachts, etc. I'm guessing since they're already at the top of the social hierarchy, they aren't concerned about skin-tone.


I agree that lighter skin was a preference for a long time because it indicated you didn’t have to work under the sun to earn your food. Fair hands could be more important than a fair face. The more aristocratic (i.e. the less you had to do) the lighter the skin. So it was more about class (and the divide between urban and rural) than about race.

When fair skin started to mean you could not afford a holiday, tanned became the thing, at least in the West.
I was reading this old magazine the other day, from the mid 1920s, and it had this narrative about two women meeting in the city after the Summer season, with the one having been in Biarritz exhibiting a tan and reporting that being as dark as possible was now the à_ la mode_ thing in France’s vacation hot spots, and the other one, having vacationed somewhere less fashionable, worrying that the fair skin she had spent the Summer protecting with hats and parasols was now going to showcase how outdated she was. So I guess that it was around this time that the change happened.


----------



## chicinthecity777

tuowei said:


> Thank you for your opinion. I agree that nations are sometimes an identifier for race and sometimes not. Its the absolute rejection that it can that I disagreed with. *And the idea that all east Asians are one race that probably comes from a western centric view of the world. *And the ad hominems.
> You've been nothing but respectful in your reply and your different reading of the exchange is accepted in good spirit


Yes! I have personally experienced extreme version of this IRL and most of the time I laugh it off but it gets tiresome when they don't even bother to distinguish your face from another Asia face...


----------



## opensesame

chicinthecity777 said:


> Yes! In the old days, having a lighter skin means that you don't need to do hard labour under the sun, e.g. working in paddy fields.



I agree and I think it is also related to genetics. China has been conquered by Northerners for the past few hundred years, and Northerners generally have lighter skin, taller built, straight black hair, thinner lips. Hence, it became the beauty standard.


----------



## opensesame

OneMoreDay said:


> My mother toiled in the paddy fields with her family and their beauty ideal was always light skin. No one in Asia looks at a white person and thinks 'I want white skin'. Most Asian people (Chinese, Filipino, Indian, Malay, Thai, etc) look at their lighter toned brothers and sisters and say 'I want their lighter skin-tone'. If you look at the big names in Filipino showbusiness, they're usually lightskinned. East Asian entertainment is dominated by porcelain coloured skin-tones while anyone with a tan stands out. Pick any upper class social circle in Asia and they'll usually have light skin. Strikingly, quite a number of Asian royals and their extended family members don't seem to care as much about skin tone, having tans from outdoor pursuits like polo, or sailing around on yachts, etc. I'm guessing since they're already at the top of the social hierarchy, they aren't concerned about skin-tone.



I think it’s also because Royalties and those in the upper most crust are educated in the West.


----------



## OneMoreDay

tuowei said:


> Thank you for your opinion. I agree that nations are sometimes an identifier for race and sometimes not. Its the absolute rejection that it can that I disagreed with. And the idea that all east Asians are one race that probably comes from a western centric view of the world. And the ad hominems.
> You've been nothing but respectful in your reply and your different reading of the exchange is accepted in good spirit


I admire both of you for your restraint. Truly, I do.

I hold a different view as the original comment had xenophobic and classist undertones, not to mention the condescending and patronising way with which they tried to counter your comments, trying to 'educate' you while calling you 'young and uneducated', as if somehow having 'a Masters degree in cultural anthropology' automatically makes their POV more legitimate than one's lived experiences regarding race. Semantics aside, prejudice is still prejudice. One can criticise the Chinese communist state (I do, often) and its disregard for the environmental impact of their manufacturing industry without having to dump all over the Chinese factory worker who doesn't have a say in any of the economic decision making. The common Chinese factory worker doesn't have any rights at all. And let's not forget who shifted manufacturing to China when it opened up to the world on the back of cheap and exploitative labour so that we could buy goods at ridiculously low prices. People can't turn their nose up at China or any other developing country and wash their hands of the role the West has played in all of this. This is exactly the kind of thing the Atlantic article is referring to about the intersection of class and race in a globalised society.


----------



## 880

OneMoreDay said:


> condescending and patronising way with which they tried to counter your comments, trying to 'educate' you while calling you 'young and uneducated',


Agree with this and  am glad you could brush it off with grace. We can disagree politely and tactfully. JMO, of course.


----------



## OneMoreDay

880 said:


> Agree with this and  am glad you could brush it off with grace. We can disagree politely and tactfully. JMO, of course.


Trust me, my initial response was much more heated and I had to rewrite several drafts before erasing the entire thing and starting over. If there's one thing I cannot bear it's someone talking and punching down to someone else.


----------



## tuowei

OneMoreDay said:


> I admire both of you for your restraint. Truly, I do.
> 
> I hold a different view as the original comment had xenophobic and classist undertones, not to mention the condescending and patronising way with which they tried to counter your comments, trying to 'educate' you while calling you 'young and uneducated', as if somehow having 'a Masters degree in cultural anthropology' automatically makes their POV more legitimate than one's lived experiences regarding race. Semantics aside, prejudice is still prejudice. One can criticise the Chinese communist state (I do, often) and its disregard for the environmental impact of their manufacturing industry without having to dump all over the Chinese factory worker who doesn't have a say in any of the economic decision making. The common Chinese factory worker doesn't have any rights at all. And let's not forget who shifted manufacturing to China when it opened up to the world on the back of cheap and exploitative labour so that we could buy goods at ridiculously low prices. People can't turn their nose up at China or any other developing country and wash their hands of the role the West has played in all of this. This is exactly the kind of thing the Atlantic article is referring to about the intersection of class and race in a globalised society.


Thank you. When I first read the replies I was unpleasantly taken aback by all the bits telling me to "_take some graduate courses in social psychology or cultural anthropology_". Asking if I "_had ever had a job (or) filled out a school application"._ Saying I must be "_very young _(and telling me)_ to educate myself so as not to reveal my ignorance_." None of that was necessary and actually obscures their point that racism is so often based on appearance and ignorant of nationality, which I actually agree with. 
At the risk of being controversial, some social scientists have a tendency to confuse their field with the "hard sciences" and believe their conclusions are as irrefutable and reproducible as the laws of physics and chemistry. Just because well-cited anthropologists divided humans into 4 boxes it doesn't make it The Truth. Social constructs like race and class are obviously real but there is no one correct answer to the complex questions human create that decides who is right or wrong. 

Cultural appropriation is another social construct that makes me head hurt. Taking something another culture created without credit to make a profit is ugly, especially if it is from a disadvantaged culture with no opportunities to exploit their own cultural legacy. But how do you compensate a culture? I also believe in the free exchange of ideas - art and literature is full of wonderful works inspired by other works. To bring it back to a superficial level - I really want a Gucci Dragon Ophelia


----------



## GhstDreamer

Luv2Scoop said:


> True, they were forced on the various boats....and across Europe, classism created issues for other 'white' people hence the move to this continent now called North America. *What about the The Chinese Exclusion Act and what that did to the Chinese men working on the railroads?* Also the indigenous people of South America and Philippines names were taken away and replaced with European names from Spain and Portugal.



The Chinese was the only ethnic group to be victim of an exclusion act by both the Canadian and the American governments. That's why some don't celebrate Canada Day (July 1st) - it was the day that act was passed. The reason why the Chinese and the Indigenous men carried out the most dangerous work on the railroad was because as property, their lives were worth 3x less than a white or a black worker in the late 1800's. The worst mass lynching to occur in the US was in the late 1800's. It was in California during a race riot and around 20 Chinese were lynched and others were left mutilated and disfigured. That's why when I was in the states on a trip one time, and a group of guys told us to get out of the car so they can hang us that hits home. Then there was the Rock Springs massacre in which almost all Chinese owned homes were burned and the residents were killed. The chinatowns and chinese communities in the US and Canada in the early 1900's to mid 1900's were areas police refused to go even when they were needed and sadly, ambulances also refused to go into their communities. In Canada, the Chinese weren't allowed to even become citizens until the mid 1950's - I believe the last ethnic group that was barred from citizenship. Much of these atrocities and injustices are not taught in history classes at least not in depth as if they never existed, especially since as an ethnic group, the Chinese became the so called, "model minority". However, covid and anti-China government sentiments in the west particularly in the US has once again sparked a lot of racial hatred, especially with leaders who fan the flames of racist rhetoric. Reminds me of the line and also title of the song (if anyone remembers), "objects in the rear view mirror are closer than they appear." Present racism against Asians in particular to the Chinese is merely a leftover of past American and Canadian racist ideological legacies. They rear it's ugly head whenever nations are under some kind of catastrophe whether it be war, pandemic, stock market crashes, etc. which is not isolated to Canada or the US.  Ethnic and religious minorities are almost always scapegoats during times of hardship no matter what country.


----------



## maryg1

papertiger said:


> The Irish were absolutely derided in England until very recently. Even in the 1970s (or especially in the 1970s) they were never allowed to forget they were Irish.


I remember there were different lines at the airport for check in for Irish people, and that wasn’t a long time ago


----------



## Luv2Scoop

GhstDreamer said:


> The Chinese was the only ethnic group to be victim of an exclusion act by both the Canadian and the American governments. That's why some don't celebrate Canada Day (July 1st) - it was the day that act was passed. The reason why the Chinese and the Indigenous men carried out the most dangerous work on the railroad was because as property, their lives were worth 3x less than a white or a black worker in the late 1800's. The worst mass lynching to occur in the US was in the late 1800's. It was in California during a race riot and around 20 Chinese were lynched and others were left mutilated and disfigured. That's why when I was in the states on a trip one time, and a group of guys told us to get out of the car so they can hang us that hits home. Then there was the Rock Springs massacre in which almost all Chinese owned homes were burned and the residents were killed. The chinatowns and chinese communities in the US and Canada in the early 1900's to mid 1900's were areas police refused to go even when they were needed and sadly, ambulances also refused to go into their communities. In Canada, the Chinese weren't allowed to even become citizens until the mid 1950's - I believe the last ethnic group that was barred from citizenship. Much of these atrocities and injustices are not taught in history classes at least not in depth as if they never existed, especially since as an ethnic group, the Chinese became the so called, "model minority". However, covid and anti-China government sentiments in the west particularly in the US has once again sparked a lot of racial hatred, especially with leaders who fan the flames of racist rhetoric. Reminds me of the line and also title of the song (if anyone remembers), "objects in the rear view mirror are closer than they appear." Present racism against Asians in particular to the Chinese is merely a leftover of past American and Canadian racist ideological legacies. They rear it's ugly head whenever nations are under some kind of catastrophe whether it be war, pandemic, stock market crashes, etc. which is not isolated to Canada or the US.  Ethnic and religious minorities are almost always scapegoats during times of hardship no matter what country.


Thanks for expanding on the Exclusion Act since no enough people in the states are aware. I try to be fair and remind myself that we are products of our environment, me, I been raised in a multi-cultural (many races and ethnicities) environment. I can usually tell the different between Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Filipino. While aware, I am not always savvy enough to tell the different between East Indianans and Fijian East Indian.  Sure, I know when someone is Sikh because of the turban and in some cases I can different based on dominant ethnic features. What is my point? While ignorance or lack of exposure can cause us to make mistakes about others, it isn't that hard to sit, listen and learn. People are like flowers (I decided not to use any animals given the sensitivity of the subject). The rose family has 91 sub families and over 4000 species. If people take the time to differentiate between the different types of rose petals, we can take the time to differentiate features of people. At the moment it is tough for Asians to travel across the global, I'm glad this website has been created to raise awareness.





__





						AAPI Equity Alliance Website – Website for the Asian American Pacific Islander Equity Alliance
					






					www.asianpacificpolicyandplanningcouncil.org


----------



## lalame

OneMoreDay said:


> I admire both of you for your restraint. Truly, I do.
> 
> I hold a different view as the original comment had xenophobic and classist undertones, not to mention the condescending and patronising way with which they tried to counter your comments, trying to 'educate' you while calling you 'young and uneducated', as if somehow having 'a Masters degree in cultural anthropology' automatically makes their POV more legitimate than one's lived experiences regarding race. Semantics aside, prejudice is still prejudice. One can criticise the Chinese communist state (I do, often) and its disregard for the environmental impact of their manufacturing industry without having to dump all over the Chinese factory worker who doesn't have a say in any of the economic decision making. The common Chinese factory worker doesn't have any rights at all. And let's not forget who shifted manufacturing to China when it opened up to the world on the back of cheap and exploitative labour so that we could buy goods at ridiculously low prices. People can't turn their nose up at China or any other developing country and wash their hands of the role the West has played in all of this. This is exactly the kind of thing the Atlantic article is referring to about the intersection of class and race in a globalised society.



You're not wrong and I should say I did step over the behavior in that person's messages and focused on the point they were trying to make instead. Hope no one took that to mean I think it's ok to treat people condescendingly, it's just these days... it becomes second nature to ignore bad attitudes on social media (because there's so much of it) and try to focus on what they're _trying_ to say instead.


----------



## lalame

tuowei said:


> Thank you. When I first read the replies I was unpleasantly taken aback by all the bits telling me to "_take some graduate courses in social psychology or cultural anthropology_". Asking if I "_had ever had a job (or) filled out a school application"._ Saying I must be "_very young _(and telling me)_ to educate myself so as not to reveal my ignorance_." None of that was necessary and actually obscures their point that racism is so often based on appearance and ignorant of nationality, which I actually agree with.
> At the risk of being controversial, some social scientists have a tendency to confuse their field with the "hard sciences" and believe their conclusions are as irrefutable and reproducible as the laws of physics and chemistry. Just because well-cited anthropologists divided humans into 4 boxes it doesn't make it The Truth. Social constructs like race and class are obviously real but there is no one correct answer to the complex questions human create that decides who is right or wrong.
> 
> Cultural appropriation is another social construct that makes me head hurt. Taking something another culture created without credit to make a profit is ugly, especially if it is from a disadvantaged culture with no opportunities to exploit their own cultural legacy. But how do you compensate a culture? I also believe in the free exchange of ideas - art and literature is full of wonderful works inspired by other works. To bring it back to a superficial level - I really want a Gucci Dragon Ophelia



This reminded me of this video... (to be fair I don't think this is really a "white" thing but it's become a convenient term)


----------



## OneMoreDay

tuowei said:


> Thank you. When I first read the replies I was unpleasantly taken aback by all the bits telling me to "_take some graduate courses in social psychology or cultural anthropology_". Asking if I "_had ever had a job (or) filled out a school application"._ Saying I must be "_very young _(and telling me)_ to educate myself so as not to reveal my ignorance_." None of that was necessary and actually obscures their point that racism is so often based on appearance and ignorant of nationality, which I actually agree with.
> At the risk of being controversial, some social scientists have a tendency to confuse their field with the "hard sciences" and believe their conclusions are as irrefutable and reproducible as the laws of physics and chemistry. Just because well-cited anthropologists divided humans into 4 boxes it doesn't make it The Truth. Social constructs like race and class are obviously real but there is no one correct answer to the complex questions human create that decides who is right or wrong.


I don't think that's controversial. People need to be able to back up their arguments with cold facts but we need understand that issues like race are real, lived experiences. Academia alone cannot define for us who we are, only how we're seen. And that's the rub. Too often, minorities are not seen at all, or we're viewed through a Western-centric lens which distort our experiences in order to fit the narratives of others. Cold hard facts and classifications don't speak to generational trauma, of cycles of poverty, of struggles of diasporas, the continuing effects of colonialism, and so on. Yes, scientists need to remain objective. But if the object of your study is not any mere object, but living breathing human beings, you need to make room for them and their stories and not talk over them.


----------



## chicinthecity777

maryg1 said:


> I remember there were different lines at the airport for check in for Irish people, and that wasn’t a long time ago


Steady... that's not racist or discrimination. That's because the Irish government and U.K. government have special immigration treaty. There is one just signed due to Brexit also as in the Irish do get special terms due to the historic tie between the two countries.


----------



## papertiger

chicinthecity777 said:


> Steady... that's not racist or discrimination. That's because the Irish government and U.K. government have special immigration treaty. There is one just signed due to Brexit also as in the Irish do get special terms due to the historic tie between the two countries.



I don't think they need passports just ID (it's the same when we go there) but they don't get their own queue now.


----------



## keodi

dooneybaby said:


> I don't take offense at all. The term African American was originally to describe the descendants of slaves or ADOS, which used to be called black Americans, and before that, Negroes. And most ADOS are not pure African. Because most of our slave ancestors were victims of rape, it's a given that we also have the DNA of the slave masters as well. That's just a given.
> I refer to myself as a black woman, but "black American" includes more than just ADOS. And more and more black Americans who are descendants of slaves are calling themselves ADOS as opposed to African American or black. It's a proud history, and I'm proud that my ancestors were able to survive the journey to America on a slave ship, survive years of enslavement and not only contribute to America but help build it, despite the lack of recognition they've received through the generations.
> If your genetic background isn't important to you then that's your personal choice. I actually find it quite interesting to look at a person and find out what their ethnic makeup is. It's something to embrace and to celebrate. And I just think it's pretty darn cool. It's only hate that has made it taboo.


Agreed!


----------



## doni

maryg1 said:


> In Italy we also have great minds that fit great in the modern world.



Oh most definitely! I didn’t mean it like you don’t, sorry. I ADORE Italy and lived there for a few years, so I may have appropriated the right to be dismissive the way one can be of the things and people one truly loves. I could have said the same about Spanish men.


----------



## OneMoreDay

tuowei said:


> Cultural appropriation is another social construct that makes me head hurt. Taking something another culture created without credit to make a profit is ugly, especially if it is from a disadvantaged culture with no opportunities to exploit their own cultural legacy. But how do you compensate a culture? I also believe in the free exchange of ideas - art and literature is full of wonderful works inspired by other works. To bring it back to a superficial level - I really want a Gucci Dragon Ophelia


I think this may be of some interest to you. I found this on Tumblr and it really spoke to me. It's angry at some points, but I think it just speaks to how tiring it is to have legitimate grievances be hijacked in order to fight a righteous 'cause' that's warped its original meaning. A lot of the things that frustrate me about mainstream racial discourse comes from well-intentioned "allies" but comes across as really ignorant and merely performative. Allies are always appreciated, I'm sure. But when a cause itself becomes appropriated, that's when it becomes problematic. Note: Emphasis my own.

*afronerdism*
*May 14th 2019, 4:18:12 am · a year ago*
The conversation surrounding cultural appropriation has been so severely mutilated by white “allies” that the original intention behind that conversation has become almost unrecognizable in most social contexts.

*afronerdism*
To explain what I mean, *the conversation around cultural appropriation was started by black and native people to discuss the frustrations we feel at being punished socially and financially for partaking in our cultural heritage* *while white people could take, I.e. appropriate, aspects of our culture that we are actively shamed for and be heralded as innovators.* It was about the frustrations we feel when the same white people who shamed us would take our culture and wear it as if they were the ones who created it while still actively shaming us for doing the same.

The original push behind naming cultural appropriation and having these conversations were so that *we as a society could evaluate why we were punished for our heritage while white People were not*. It was supposed to be about seeking solutions. *The idea was to create a society where we could celebrate our cultures with impunity*. It was* never about telling white people that they “weren’t allowed” to do certain things. *We did ask that white People stop doing certain things because they weren’t doing them respectfully and were not invited to do them, but *the primary reason we asked them to desist was to reclaim the things they had stolen and to reassign them culturally back where they belonged*.

White “allies” saw these conversations happening and instead of trying to amplify our own voices or even try to learn about the complexities behind why we were saying what we were saying, *they instead began screaming over us and creating a narrative that was hardly even the bones of what we originally set out to say.* *It was like they took the conversation we were trying to have, completely decontextualized it, and stripped it of all it’s nuance in order to gain social currency by seeming progressive.*

So the conversation around cultural appropriation went from _“This aspect of our heritage belongs to us and we find it egregious that we are shamed for it. What steps can we take to address the racism that’s creating this situation as well as rehome the things that have been stolen”_ to _“you’re not allowed to do that because if you do that you’re racist, we don’t really understand why that’s racist but you’re not allowed to do that and if you do that you’re a klansman no exceptions. So you’re not allowed because because”_
At the end of the day, did I like the fact that sally was wearing dreads? No. But *my primary concern was not that sally was wearing dreads but rather that sally could wear dreads and I couldn’t.* *THAT* was the intended focus of those conversations. It was about addressing the inequality. It was about us. Now the conversation is just about sally and we're completely forgotten.

White People are always asking me what they can do to help. You want to know? *Stop talking. Amplify our voices and shut the f*ck up because you all have pretty much derailed this conversation and many more like it to the point that we no longer are trying to make steps to understand and dismantle the racism around cultural appropriation and instead are just using it as social shaming tactics.*


----------



## tuowei

OneMoreDay said:


> I think this may be of some interest to you. I found this on Tumblr and it really spoke to me. It's angry at some points, but I think it just speaks to how tiring it is to have legitimate grievances be hijacked in order to fight a righteous 'cause' that's warped its original meaning. A lot of the things that frustrate me about mainstream racial discourse comes from well-intentioned "allies" but comes across as really ignorant and merely performative. Allies are always appreciated, I'm sure. But when a cause itself becomes appropriated, that's when it becomes problematic. Note: Emphasis my own.
> 
> *afronerdism*
> *May 14th 2019, 4:18:12 am · a year ago*
> The conversation surrounding cultural appropriation has been so severely mutilated by white “allies” that the original intention behind that conversation has become almost unrecognizable in most social contexts.
> n
> *afronerdism*
> The original push behind naming cultural appropriation and having these conversations were so that *we as a society could evaluate why we were punished for our heritage while white People were not*. It was supposed to be about seeking solutions. *The idea was to create a society where we could celebrate our cultures with impunity*. It was* never about telling white people that they “weren’t allowed” to do certain things. *We did ask that white People stop doing certain things because they weren’t doing them respectfully and were not invited to do them, but *the primary reason we asked them to desist was to reclaim the things they had stolen and to reassign them culturally back where they belonged*.



Thanks, that is interesting. I can understand the frustration - media citations of cultural appropriation that immediately come to mind are white people wearing native american headdresses and the Dior Savage Johnny Depp ads. I agree that the aspect where the original culture is judged harshly for something that the appropriating people are celebrated for can get lost in the mix. The Guardian recently had an article about Kpop and Black culture that speaks to this I think. 

Unfortunately I've come to realize that once you put an idea out, it ceases to be within your control. Honestly, I don't know which is better: the idea catching fire the and mutating beyond your original intent or the idea sinking like a stone. Such distortions can come from your own camp, well-meaning allies or deliberate twisting to extremes to set up straw men by antagonists. I am wary of ideas that go from "think about what your doing" to "it's wrong to do this" ... as happens all too often.


----------



## lovemyrescues

Yoshi1296 said:


> I agree! I think Telfar is doing a fantastic job in changing the fashion industry. He has such a cool and unique approach to casual streetwear. Plus, his vegan bags are a major hit, they're always sold out! I've been trying to get one for months now and I always miss them.


 You can preorder a Telfar bag on 8/19 for 24 hours.  They just announced it.  Info on site: https://shop.telfar.net/


----------



## Yoshi1296

lovemyrescues said:


> You can preorder a Telfar bag on 8/19 for 24 hours.  They just announced it.  Info on site: https://shop.telfar.net/



yes I just saw!! ahhh so excited hehe


----------



## 880

Just went on the site and everything is sold out  I’ll keep trying! Thank you for the link!


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## lovemyrescues

Yoshi1296 said:


> yes I just saw!! ahhh so excited hehe


Their customer service is great!  I asked about a couple of colors and what they look like in real life and they answered right away!  I am so happy!


----------



## lovemyrescues

880 said:


> Just went on the site and everything is sold out  I’ll keep trying! Thank you for the link!


Log on Wednesday for the 24 hour pre-order. Here is the info on their site:


*INTRODUCING: 
THE TELFAR BAG SECURITY PROGRAM*
TELFAR is a black-owned, non-gendered fashion project established in 2004. The Shopping Bag first dropped in 2014 — meaning: *our bag ain't new — it’s the world that changed. Let’s keep it changing.*




We feel all the love we are getting, and we feel the frustration too.

We are not about hype and scarcity. We didn’t set out to make an impossible to get product. The whole point of our bag is accessibility and community.

But the truth is (with or without the bots and resellers) when thousands of bags sell per second we can't even know how many to make. We plan production 6 months in advance. It takes time and money to make bags and we are 100% self-financed.

So, what do we do?




*ON WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 19, FOR 24 HRS*


We will offer *EVERY SIZE AND COLOR FOR UNLIMITED PRE-ORDER.*
Order the bags you need, *AND WE WILL MAKE THEM FOR YOU.*
You will get your bag no later than *JANUARY 15
PERIOD
*

We are doing this so that there is a way to guarantee you your bag without you having to deal with the stress of drops. We will continue to do drops and are working on getting more and more product — but this is a way to both support us, buy direct, and GUARANTEE yourself a bag — even if you have to wait for it.

There are *SPECIFIC RULES* that makes it possible for us to offer this:




*PAYMENT*


THE BAG SECURITY PROGRAM requires PAYMENT IN FULL at checkout. This includes shipping and taxes.
*NO REFUNDS*


*THERE ARE NO REFUNDS • NO CANCELLATIONS • NO CHANGES* of any kind to your order - NO EXCEPTIONS. We have to actually make your bag FOR YOU. This is the only way we can offer this program. If you are not sure you can wait you can take your chances with the drops.
*DELIVERY*


Your bag is GUARANTEED TO ARRIVE between DECEMBER 15th, 2020 - JANUARY 15th 2021.
DOUBLE CHECK YOUR DELIVERY ADDRESS. We are unable to accommodate ANY address changes. Please provide a secure address where you can receive your order at the arrival date (12/15/2020 - 01/15/2021).
You will receive UPS tracking info via email once your order has shipped.
*SCHEDULE*


We cannot guarantee a specific date of arrival. It will likely be sooner but January 15 2021 is the LATEST. In the event of an unforeseen delay or disaster (Covid, Tsunami, Asteroids, etc.) you will be the FIRST to know.
*PLEASE BE COOL*


We will continue to do bag drops between now and January. Those are bags we ordered months ago — it may look like your bag, but it’s not your bag. We are making your bag FOR YOU and getting it to you THE SECOND IT IS READY.
Real talk — we are a small team and trying to stay lean. Please DO NOT order if you are not sure. Please DO NOT contact us about bag status, all the info is explained here.
Once you make your order you are agreeing to the terms and conditions above. We promise to carry out our part and get you your bag.


----------



## 880

Thank you so much lovemyrescues!


----------



## Yoshi1296

lovemyrescues said:


> Their customer service is great!  I asked about a couple of colors and what they look like in real life and they answered right away!  I am so happy!



Yayy thats awesome!


----------



## 880

lovemyrescues said:


> You can preorder a Telfar bag on 8/19 for 24 hours.  They just announced it.  Info on site: https://shop.telfar.net/


Thank you so much! I just placed my order!


----------



## 880

dooneybaby said:


> Nice until you've tried for 2 years to buy one, as I have.
> They're always out of stock. And now the online store is closed.


@dooneybaby, hope you get to order one today during the bag security program on telfar’s site, posted above by @lovemyrescues !


----------



## Megs

Everyone can get a Telfar bag today!! I'm ordering a few as well! Will post about it on PurseBlog for all other bag lovers so they can be part too


----------



## lovemyrescues

Megs said:


> Everyone can get a Telfar bag today!! I'm ordering a few as well! Will post about it on PurseBlog for all other bag lovers so they can be part too


Yay Megs!  I was able to snag the green medium at the drop yesterday and getting Oxblood today for future delivery.  I hope they do this every few months!

I am glad you let all of your subscribers know so they can order today as well!


----------



## lovemyrescues

Oh wow we can order now!  They have alllll of them even the flag one!


----------



## sf_newyorker

Thanks everyone! I’m pre-ordered mine .


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Another black owned fashion industry business to support...

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/08/michelle-*****-dnc-vote-necklace-bychari
(I ordered the white gold)!

ETA I guess the Vanity Fair link won't work because of the *, here's the actual product...









						Fine Vote Necklace
					

Ready to rock the vote? Do it in style with our coveted VOTE necklace. Our best selling piece, this necklace was designed for powerhouse women who let their voices be heard, especially at the polls. Michelle ***** donned this piece at the 2020 ********ic National Convention, encouraging people...




					bychari.com


----------



## lovemyrescues

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Another black owned fashion industry business to support...
> 
> https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/08/michelle-*****-dnc-vote-necklace-bychari
> (I ordered the white gold)!
> 
> ETA I guess the Vanity Fair link won't work because of the *, here's the actual product...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fine Vote Necklace
> 
> 
> Ready to rock the vote? Do it in style with our coveted VOTE necklace. Our best selling piece, this necklace was designed for powerhouse women who let their voices be heard, especially at the polls. Michelle ***** donned this piece at the 2020 ********ic National Convention, encouraging people...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bychari.com


Love it!


----------



## Megs

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Another black owned fashion industry business to support...
> 
> https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/08/michelle-*****-dnc-vote-necklace-bychari
> (I ordered the white gold)!
> 
> ETA I guess the Vanity Fair link won't work because of the *, here's the actual product...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fine Vote Necklace
> 
> 
> Ready to rock the vote? Do it in style with our coveted VOTE necklace. Our best selling piece, this necklace was designed for powerhouse women who let their voices be heard, especially at the polls. Michelle ***** donned this piece at the 2020 ********ic National Convention, encouraging people...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bychari.com



I am a huge fan of By Chari! I have a necklace with Vaughn's name from a few years ago and talk to Chari via email! I actually have a discount code from her for our readers - think she might still honor it for you if you reach out: 15% off with code PURSEBLOG

I'm working on a longer piece on her soon, but have covered her a few times on purseblog.com the past couple years.


----------



## lovemyrescues

Megs said:


> I am a huge fan of By Chari! I have a necklace with Vaughn's name from a few years ago and talk to Chari via email! I actually have a discount code from her for our readers - think she might still honor it for you if you reach out: 15% off with code PURSEBLOG
> 
> I'm working on a longer piece on her soon, but have covered her a few times on purseblog.com the past couple years.


Are you going to let your readers know about Telfar before it ends?


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Megs said:


> I am a huge fan of By Chari! I have a necklace with Vaughn's name from a few years ago and talk to Chari via email! I actually have a discount code from her for our readers - think she might still honor it for you if you reach out: 15% off with code PURSEBLOG
> 
> I'm working on a longer piece on her soon, but have covered her a few times on purseblog.com the past couple years.



Oh wow thank you so much, too bad I already placed the order but hope others will be able to use it! I think she is going to get a lot of coverage now I'll definitely look for your piece!


----------



## limom

Thanks guys!
My medium navy blue has been ordered..
Merry Christmas to me!
Cant wait to stunt with this cool bag.
Another one of my fav.
Briogeo hair product. The hair scrub is on of my HG.
PS. They have a set on the NAS


----------



## 880

limom said:


> Thanks guys!
> My medium navy blue has been ordered..



we will be twins!


----------



## Megs

lovemyrescues said:


> Are you going to let your readers know about Telfar before it ends?



I did have a post go live yesterday afternoon! https://www.purseblog.com/buzz-worthy/telfar-bag-security-program/


----------



## Megs

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Oh wow thank you so much, too bad I already placed the order but hope others will be able to use it! I think she is going to get a lot of coverage now I'll definitely look for your piece!



If you reach out to her customer service, they might still honor it! She's been lovely to chat with along with anyone on her team


----------



## lovemyrescues

Megs said:


> I did have a post go live yesterday afternoon! https://www.purseblog.com/buzz-worthy/telfar-bag-security-program/


yay


----------



## Julide

I just finished this thread...I just wanted to thank everyone who posted articles. I really enjoyed reading them and I googled quite a few terms! I hope the discussion continues


----------



## limom

880 said:


> we will be twins!


I cant wait and neither can Caramelle.


----------



## Megs

limom said:


> I cant wait and neither can Caramelle.
> View attachment 4824529
> View attachment 4824530
> View attachment 4824531
> View attachment 4824532



I got the Large in Cream, Medium in Oxblood and Small in Pool Blue! Can not wait to get these bags and so happy to see how Telfar has grown its business. While so many brands use the sold out to build hype (and who knows how real it is for each brand at different times), Telfar stepped up and figured out a way for those who want bags to get them. It's just refreshing and exciting!


----------



## lovemyrescues

Megs said:


> I got the Large in Cream, Medium in Oxblood and Small in Pool Blue! Can not wait to get these bags and so happy to see how Telfar has grown its business. While so many brands use the sold out to build hype (and who knows how real it is for each brand at different times), Telfar stepped up and figured out a way for those who want bags to get them. It's just refreshing and exciting!


I agree!  I emailed them and told them that I would wait months if it meant buying from them directly instead of going to a reseller.

I hope they do this again!


----------



## limom

lovemyrescues said:


> I agree!  I emailed them and told them that I would wait months if it meant buying from them directly instead of going to a reseller.
> 
> I hope they do this again!


They make it pretty clear that the bags will be there from december 15 to January 15.
I have no problem waiting either.
I heard an interview early this summer on WNYC and fell instantly in love with their personalities.
The story about the White Castle uniforms and party were really fun.
I wish those two guys tons of success.


----------



## lovemyrescues

limom said:


> They make it pretty clear that the bags will be there from december 15 to January 15.
> I have no problem waiting either.
> I heard an interview early this summer on WNYC and fell instantly in love with their personalities.
> The story about the White Castle uniforms and party were really fun.
> I wish those two guys tons of success.


Yes you can purchase them! https://shop.telfar.net/collections/white-castle-2020


----------



## surfchick

Megs said:


> I got the Large in Cream, Medium in Oxblood and Small in Pool Blue! Can not wait to get these bags and so happy to see how Telfar has grown its business. While so many brands use the sold out to build hype (and who knows how real it is for each brand at different times), Telfar stepped up and figured out a way for those who want bags to get them. It's just refreshing and exciting!


I got the oxblood in medium too! Large I got dark olive.  I wonder if I should have gotten the small also. So tempting!


----------



## limom

AOC is a fan:








						Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Demonstrates Just How Much Crap You Can Stuff In Your Telfar Bag
					

Here is a short list of things I have put in my Telfar bag: weed, sex toys, my Nintendo Switch, a knock-off Lady Gaga Chromatica-themed jockstrap, and an entire rotisserie chicken from Von’s. Here is an even shorter list of things I have not put in my Telfar bag: a Congressional binder with...




					jezebel.com


----------



## Megs

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Oh wow thank you so much, too bad I already placed the order but hope others will be able to use it! I think she is going to get a lot of coverage now I'll definitely look for your piece!



Wanted to make sure you saw my interview with Chari! 









						Interview: Chari Cuthbert, Designer and Creative Director, of BYCHARI Jewelry - PurseBlog
					

While I'm a bag girl first, I also love jewelry. And when it comes to my jewelry, I typically opt for clean and classic designs. Cue BYCHARI jewelry, a brand I discovered after having Vaughn and…




					www.purseblog.com


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Megs said:


> Wanted to make sure you saw my interview with Chari!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interview: Chari Cuthbert, Designer and Creative Director, of BYCHARI Jewelry - PurseBlog
> 
> 
> While I'm a bag girl first, I also love jewelry. And when it comes to my jewelry, I typically opt for clean and classic designs. Cue BYCHARI jewelry, a brand I discovered after having Vaughn and…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.purseblog.com



Thank you so much, great interview! I can't wait for my necklace to arrive!

Although it's a little ironic that most of her dream customers are personae non gratae in the celebrity forum...

_"Michelle ***** was number one on my wish list and that dream has come true! I would also love to see my designs on Oprah, ************* (a fellow Jamacian woman) and Meghan Markle."

 _


----------



## Essaeeeee

@meg @Vlad wondering why you felt the need to censor *************' first name rather than the last like the others. Quite the double standards here.


OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Thank you so much, great interview! I can't wait for my necklace to arrive!
> 
> Although it's a little ironic that most of her dream customers are personae non gratae in the celebrity forum...
> 
> _"Michelle ***** was number one on my wish list and that dream has come true! I would also love to see my designs on Oprah, ****** Harris (a fellow Jamacian woman) and Meghan Markle."
> 
> _


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

I originally wrote this as a private message but the more I think about it the more I realize we need to have these conversations in public...

If politics aren't allowed on the forum why is there a Melania ***** thread?

In addition to the fact that she is undeniably a political figure (the most recent photos posted are of her at the RNC), she is also a birther who publicly accused the first Black ***** of lying about being an American.

I don't care how high her heels are it was disgusting and racist and not calling that out makes us all complicit.


----------



## canto bight

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I originally wrote this as a private message but the more I think about it the more I realize we need to have these conversations in public...
> 
> If politics aren't allowed on the forum why is there a Melania ***** thread?
> 
> In addition to the fact that she is undeniably a political figure (the most recent photos posted are of her at the RNC), she is also a birther who publicly accused the first Black ***** of lying about being an American.
> 
> I don't care how high her heels are it was disgusting and racist and not calling that out makes us all complicit.





Essaeeeee said:


> @meg @Vlad wondering why you felt the need to censor ****** Harris' first name rather than the last like the others. Quite the double standards here.



Questions that need answers.


----------



## Megs

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Thank you so much, great interview! I can't wait for my necklace to arrive!
> 
> Although it's a little ironic that most of her dream customers are personae non gratae in the celebrity forum...
> 
> _"Michelle ***** was number one on my wish list and that dream has come true! I would also love to see my designs on Oprah, ************* (a fellow Jamacian woman) and Meghan Markle."
> 
> _



While we don't cover politics on PurseBlog, if I have an interview with someone and they make reference to a political figure that they'd love to see in their wares or say they'd love to sit down for dinner with them etc, I am happy to share that. Chari just had the biggest placement of her Vote necklace and was of course thrilled with that! She answered these questions right after that happened, so of course she would want to share and of course I'd have that included! 

Forum always is no politics.



Essaeeeee said:


> @meg @Vlad wondering why you felt the need to censor *************' first name rather than the last like the others. Quite the double standards here.



We don't censor the name Michelle for example because there are plenty of other people with that name being discussed on the forums. Harris is used for other people (not many but it's there), hence we didn't censor that name. 



OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I originally wrote this as a private message but the more I think about it the more I realize we need to have these conversations in public...
> 
> If politics aren't allowed on the forum why is there a Melania ***** thread?
> 
> In addition to the fact that she is undeniably a political figure (the most recent photos posted are of her at the RNC), she is also a birther who publicly accused the first Black ***** of lying about being an American.
> 
> I don't care how high her heels are it was disgusting and racist and not calling that out makes us all complicit.



You are right. We are closing political style threads and won't allow new ones to be made going forward. 



canto bight said:


> Questions that need answers.



Hope this answered all of your questions. 

We have always had a no politics rule and we tried to have a few instances where we allowed things (like First Lady's style threads as long as they didn't get political), but that is already political and the best way to keep this rule fair across the board is to remove those threads. 

The censored out politicians names is because we truly have some members continue to bring up these figures and we can't see it all. I believe this will help with that.


----------



## 880

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I originally wrote this as a private message but the more I think about it the more I realize we need to have these conversations in public...
> 
> If politics aren't allowed on the forum why is there a Melania ***** thread?
> 
> In addition to the fact that she is undeniably a political figure (the most recent photos posted are of her at the RNC), she is also a birther who publicly accused the first Black ***** of lying about being an American.
> 
> I don't care how high her heels are it was disgusting and racist and not calling that out makes us all complicit.



I don’t necessarily mind that there is a First Lady style thread, though I wouldn’t visit Melanias. imalso don’t see why we cannot call out a racist statement. IMO, her politics are irrelevant and all people in the public eye, should be held accountable for their inflammatory false statements. If Michelle made such statements, I would want her accountable too. I’ve expressed this opinion in a more articulate fashion in this thread.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Megs said:


> While we don't cover politics on PurseBlog, if I have an interview with someone and they make reference to a political figure that they'd love to see in their wares or say they'd love to sit down for dinner with them etc, I am happy to share that. Chari just had the biggest placement of her Vote necklace and was of course thrilled with that! She answered these questions right after that happened, so of course she would want to share and of course I'd have that included!



Oh absolutely I wouldn't want you to censor an interview and I agree it was the best product placement! I can totally understand why she was excited...it's awesome and I am sure will be great for her! I just thought it was funny that she specifically mentioned a celeb who is eviscerated on a daily basis here. (And another who was literally accused of prostituting herself in that same thread). 



880 said:


> I don’t necessarily mind that there is a First Lady style thread, though I wouldn’t visit Melanias. imalso don’t see why we cannot call out a racist statement. IMO, her politics are irrelevant and all people in the public eye, should be held accountable for their inflammatory false statements. If Michelle made such statements, I would want her accountable too. I’ve expressed this opinion in a more articulate fashion in this thread.



I totally agree. 

The problem with the style thread is that because racism seems to be considered "political" these days really only positive posts are allowed. Which means racism isn't called out.

And that's why I changed my mind about sharing my comment publicly. I am really trying to be aware of the difference between being non racist and anti racist. And holding myself accountable even (or maybe especially) when doing so is uncomfortable.


----------



## Chanbal

Sharing here an interesting article.









						Harvard historian examines how textbooks taught white supremacy
					

We interview historian Donald Yacovone, an associate at The Hutchins Center for African & African American Research, who is writing the book “Teaching White Supremacy: The Textbook Battle Over Race in American History.”




					news.harvard.edu


----------



## prettychic

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> In the Jewish community there is disagreement about whether modern antisemitism can or should be classified as racism, and even how to categorize Judaism.
> 
> What I do know is there are no winners in the oppression olympics.


Can you give some concrete examples of what you are intending to communicate?


----------



## Gabs007

I prefer to see something positive, it is nowhere enough, but finally there is more ethnic diversity in fashion, come on, let's just go back a decade or two, Madonna (who I think is a great artist btw and kudos for making it in a male dominated industry) was ripping off every culture on a weekly basis, I think slowly the music and fashion industry (always quite tightly connected) isn't just "borrowing" from ethnic sources anymore but gives more credit and gives them more of a platform. Nowhere near enough, but it is moving in the right direction


----------



## 880

Was looking for a particular book on sapeurs sartorialism and thought I could post a link to this older article here; 









						Black Dandies, Style Rebels With a Cause
					

The traveling exhibit “Dandy Lion” presents striking images of dapper men of African descent whose sartorial flair challenges notions of race and masculinity.



					lens.blogs.nytimes.com


----------



## 880

this is an interesting article: 
Barbara Blake Hannah: The first black reporter on British TV https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-54623417


----------



## sdkitty

I happened up the HBO production Between The World and Me othe other night.  Very well done, thought provoking and for me I learned at least one new thing.  Had never heard about the murder of Prince Jones.


----------



## sdkitty

I like this article about a WOC coming to terms with her natural hair








						I'm Mixed-Race And Have White Parents. Here's What My Hair Taught Me About My Culture.
					

Through my hair journey from childhood to adulthood, I was able to shift from culturally curious, to culturally confident.




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## Capucine

I didn't know were to post/ask for this so here might be the right place.
I follow lots of luxury brands fan pages on IG and they re post pictures of fashionistas rocking ther designer accessories, outfits etc..
And I notice something weird and would like to understand as we are the one liking the posts:
Whenever you see picture of a dark/black lady on those feed, the post has fewer likes than the average. It's very bizare that sometimes (most of the time actually), a picture of a beautiful dark skin in a stunning outfit would get just 500 likes for exemple while the next post of a pet with a Dior collar is "omg too cute" and has thousand of likes and so does the one with the blonde lady just showing of a Chanel scarf.

I do not mean to be rude or offend anyone, it is just something I noticed and was wondering if anyone felt the same?


----------



## canto bight

Capucine said:


> I didn't know were to post/ask for this so here might be the right place.
> I follow lots of luxury brands fan pages on IG and they re post pictures of fashionistas rocking ther designer accessories, outfits etc..
> And I notice something weird and would like to understand as we are the one liking the posts:
> Whenever you see picture of a dark/black lady on those feed, the post has fewer likes than the average. It's very bizare that sometimes (most of the time actually), a picture of a beautiful dark skin in a stunning outfit would get just 500 likes for exemple while the next post of a pet with a Dior collar is "omg too cute" and has thousand of likes and so does the one with the blonde lady just showing of a Chanel scarf.
> 
> I do not mean to be rude or offend anyone, it is just something I noticed and was wondering if anyone felt the same?



I've noticed it as well.  I think that society values a certain type of beauty as superior to other forms (consciously and subconsciously). Even more dangerously, society devalues certain types of beauty as well.  Young people of color explicitly see these biases everyday, but luckily now there are many messages that counter that today unlike just a few years ago.


----------



## bisousx

Capucine said:


> I didn't know were to post/ask for this so here might be the right place.
> I follow lots of luxury brands fan pages on IG and they re post pictures of fashionistas rocking ther designer accessories, outfits etc..
> And I notice something weird and would like to understand as we are the one liking the posts:
> Whenever you see picture of a dark/black lady on those feed, the post has fewer likes than the average. It's very bizare that sometimes (most of the time actually), a picture of a beautiful dark skin in a stunning outfit would get just 500 likes for exemple while the next post of a pet with a Dior collar is "omg too cute" and has thousand of likes and so does the one with the blonde lady just showing of a Chanel scarf.
> 
> I do not mean to be rude or offend anyone, it is just something I noticed and was wondering if anyone felt the same?



Can you post a link to an example? Out of curiosity, I looked at 2 accounts I follow.. revolve and zimmermann. Didn’t see a difference.


----------



## 880

canto bight said:


> I've noticed it as well.  I think that society values a certain type of beauty as superior to other forms (consciously and subconsciously). Even more dangerously, society devalues certain types of beauty as well.  Young people of color explicitly see these biases everyday, but luckily now there are many messages that counter that today unlike just a few years ago.



@canto bight, I was thinking of your many messages that counter’ when I came across this article. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/...-our-people.html?referringSource=articleShare


----------



## HKsai

I thought of this thread when I noticed all the celebrity handbag threads (celebrities holding their bags) on the blog are usually the same people without much diversity.


----------



## tinsleystyle

I just went through and read every single post in this thread, and I found it incredibly insightful and eye-opening.



minnnea said:


> I am so so sorry to off-topic this further but the China = bad quality argument is so not this day. China has adopted good technologies and are making high tech and high quality stuff (too). And as you pointed out several brands have production partly in China and other countries considered cheaper than Europe.
> 
> Made in is no guarantee of quality. This is strictly my personal opinion but on many occasions European brands produced outside Europe are actually rather good. Many companies have done good sourcing. Eg. I have two Mulberry bags, one made in China and one made in England. The Chinese bag is outstanding quality but the UK purse has lots of glueing issues. I have the same Longchamp strap, one made in France and one made in Tunisia. You can guess which is better made - the one made in Tunisia.
> 
> Rather than being a made in issue the quality is a production (volume) issue.



In response to this insight, and to also tie the discussion back to handbags, this reminded me of a comment I read in the Chanel forum, referring to its diminishing quality, that stopped me in my tracks. 



Purseonic Woman said:


> I would not be surprised if this stuff was being secretly made in China or other country not Italy or France.



I found the insinuation that poor-quality goods can only come out of China (“or other country”), and could not *possibly* be made in Italy or France, to be ridiculous and offensive. This harkens back to the points raised in the OP’s article – yet another example of a harmful elitist misconception ingrained in fashion’s collective psyche. Quality is quality, regardless of where the “Made In” stamp reads.


----------



## tinsleystyle

Rihanna and LVMH Are Taking a Break

It seems that Fenty was plagued with quality problems (I cannot speak to this as I do not personally own anything from the line), but I wonder what its repercussions on the luxury industry will be, namely whether there will be a chilling effect on breaking free from the “traditions” of the industry (my hope is that Rihanna will not be the first-but-last black woman to head up a fashion house at LVMH).


----------



## Mimmy

Amanda Gorman who amazes me with with her poetry and style was racially profiled near her home.

I was lurking on the Harry and Meghan thread for a bit and got a good taste of why I left that thread. I need to remind myself not to visit there at all.

The posts I read were about how POC (celebrities) were only defending Meghan because she is a WOC. I can understand why people don’t like Meghan but to summarily dismiss any support of her for this reason is mind boggling. I am saddened and angered that race continues to play a significant role in her narrative.

Usually the posts contain the statement “I am not a racist”. It reminds me of when people start a statement with “No offense but”; you can be certain that what comes after will be offensive.

The incident involving Amanda Gorman was mentioned in that thread in case the subjects do not seem related.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Mimmy said:


> Amanda Gorman who amazes me with with her poetry and style was racially profiled near her home.
> 
> *I was lurking on the Harry and Meghan thread for a bit and got a good taste of why I left that thread. I need to remind myself not to visit there at all.*
> 
> The posts I read were about how POC (celebrities) were only defending Meghan because she is a WOC. I can understand why people don’t like Meghan but to summarily dismiss any support of her for this reason is mind boggling. I am saddened and angered that race continues to play a significant role in her narrative.
> 
> Usually the posts contain the statement “I am not a racist”. It reminds me of when people start a statement with “No offense but”; you can be certain that what comes after will be offensive.
> 
> The incident involving Amanda Gorman was mentioned in that thread in case the subjects do not seem related.



You're right. That thread depresses me and sometimes makes me want to stop reading tpf altogether. Thank you for reminding me it's not representative of everyone here.


----------



## maryg1

Mimmy said:


> The posts I read were about how POC (celebrities) were only defending Meghan because she is a WOC. I can understand why people don’t like Meghan but to summarily dismiss any support of her for this reason is mind boggling. I am saddened and angered that race continues to play a significant role in her narrative.


Just to understand: in your opinion, what’s their reason in supporting her? Most of the support messages I’ve read refers to the fact that, since she’s mixed race (how I hate writing “race”, don’t we have another word?), she has to be supported. 
I can’t understand how people can’t figure out that being good, or bad, or smart, or selfish, are all features of being human, they don’t belong to a race (again...) or another.
People should be judged on their actions, not on their skin. And on the other side, people should be able to criticise the actions without the risk of being accused of racism.


----------



## sdkitty

Mimmy said:


> Amanda Gorman who amazes me with with her poetry and style was racially profiled near her home.
> 
> I was lurking on the Harry and Meghan thread for a bit and got a good taste of why I left that thread. I need to remind myself not to visit there at all.
> 
> The posts I read were about how POC (celebrities) were only defending Meghan because she is a WOC. I can understand why people don’t like Meghan but to summarily dismiss any support of her for this reason is mind boggling. I am saddened and angered that race continues to play a significant role in her narrative.
> 
> Usually the posts contain the statement “I am not a racist”. It reminds me of when people start a statement with “No offense but”; you can be certain that what comes after will be offensive.
> 
> The incident involving Amanda Gorman was mentioned in that thread in case the subjects do not seem related.


Amanda Gorman is amazing and worthy of admiration.  and she certainly didn't deserve the racial profiling that happened to her.  I don't think Meghan is amazing or worthy of admiration.  You have your opinions and some people see things differently.


----------



## Mimmy

maryg1 said:


> Just to understand: in your opinion, what’s their reason in supporting her? Most of the support messages I’ve read refers to the fact that, since she’s mixed race (how I hate writing “race”, don’t we have another word?), she has to be supported.
> I can’t understand how people can’t figure out that being good, or bad, or smart, or selfish, are all features of being human, they don’t belong to a race (again...) or another.
> People should be judged on their actions, not on their skin. And on the other side, people should be able to criticise the actions without the risk of being accused of racism.


I agree that people should be judged on their actions, unfortunately we live in a world where people are still judged by some based on the color of their skin. 

It may surprise some but I also agree that Meghan’s actions, especially recent ones (in my opinion) are not admirable or appropriate.

I cannot tell you why certain celebrities are supporting her. The celebrities I am thinking of were giving messages of general support along the lines of #teammeghan. I do not recall any specifically saying that she should be supported only because she is biracial or a POC. I felt it was unfair to dismiss their support simply by saying they were POC. If I were to make an assumption (which is always a risky thing to do) possibly they have experienced something that resonates with them related to what they see Meghan experiencing. I just don’t think it’s as simple as saying they are supporting her only based on race.


----------



## Mimmy

sdkitty said:


> Amanda Gorman is amazing and worthy of admiration.  and she certainly didn't deserve the racial profiling that happened to her.  I don't think Meghan is amazing or worthy of admiration.  You have your opinions and some people see things differently.


I agree.


----------



## maryg1

Mimmy said:


> I agree that people should be judged on their actions, unfortunately we live in a world where people are still judged by some based on the color of their skin.
> 
> It may surprise some but I also agree that Meghan’s actions, especially recent ones (in my opinion) are not admirable or appropriate.
> 
> I cannot tell you why certain celebrities are supporting her. The celebrities I am thinking of were giving messages of general support along the lines of #teammeghan. I do not recall any specifically saying that she should be supported only because she is biracial or a POC. I felt it was unfair to dismiss their support simply by saying they were POC. If I were to make an assumption (which is always a risky thing to do) possibly they have experienced something that resonates with them related to what they see Meghan experiencing. I just don’t think it’s as simple as saying they are supporting her only based on race.


Thank you for the explanation.
If I’m not wrong, Halle Berry twitted something  like “it’s always protect Black Women”, that sounded a support tweet only based on the skin colour to me.


----------



## sdkitty

maryg1 said:


> Thank you for the explanation.
> If I’m not wrong, Halle Berry tweeted something  like “it’s always protect Black Women”, that sounded a support tweet only based on the skin colour to me.


that's what I'm thinking too.....as far as we know, Halle doesn't know Meghan personally.  So what is this based on?  Supporting a WOC it would seem (regardless of her actions?).  and BTW Halle is my girl crush.  I like her.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

maryg1 said:


> Just to understand: in your opinion, what’s their reason in supporting her? Most of the support messages I’ve read refers to the fact that, since she’s mixed race (how I hate writing “race”, don’t we have another word?), she has to be supported.
> I can’t understand how people can’t figure out that being good, or bad, or smart, or selfish, are all features of being human, they don’t belong to a race (again...) or another.
> People should be judged on their actions, not on their skin. And on the other side, people should be able to criticise the actions without the risk of being accused of racism.





sdkitty said:


> Amanda Gorman is amazing and worthy of admiration.  and she certainly didn't deserve the racial profiling that happened to her.  I don't think Meghan is amazing or worthy of admiration.  You have your opinions and some people see things differently.



Of course people can be judged for their actions, and I agree there are probably many posters don't like Harry and Meghan for very legitimate reasons. But I also noticed there was a lot of overlap between some of the most venomous derisive comments in that thread with endless enthusiastic support for another high profile woman who has displayed many similar traits yet happens to be white (and has been accused of racism herself). I can't say more because it's not allowed here but it has made me wonder.



maryg1 said:


> Thank you for the explanation.
> If I’m not wrong, Halle Berry twitted something  like “it’s always protect Black Women”, that sounded a support tweet only based on the skin colour to me.



Here's the entire tweet...


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

We have no idea if Halle Berry was referring to Mehgan Markle. 

But protecting black women doesn't mean NOT protecting other women (or men or animals or...).

Just like if you see someone wearing a pink ribbon for breast cancer you probably wouldn't get upset with them and say "well what about skin cancer?"


----------



## bisousx

Well I was one of the people who took issue with celebrities posting general statements in defense of Meghan when it comes to the issue of her being accused of bullying her employees and driving them to quit.

Maybe Halle and Gabrielle Union, etc didn’t post for Meghan. Entertainment outlets seem to think so. I don’t have an issue at all if it’s a general statement from anyone, of course black women should be protected.

I happen to have a soft spot for people in lower positions who are silenced when they try to speak out. (I also think these bullying allegations are coming out a little too late to be effective).

My mother is a narcissist, and as a child I regularly saw her bully our housekeepers and nannies to tears. Like the Sussex household, ours was a revolving door of employees quitting tearfully. I have so many painful memories of watching these women (who were in helpless positions - usually in between immigration statuses and depending on the cash income) sob in my room or somewhere around the house when they thought no one was looking. I know what it’s like to be under the thumb of a power hungry and status-obsessed narcissist.

So it’s extra irritating to me to read that Meghan was driving her team to tears, and now celebrities are jumping to Meghan’s defense and don’t have anything to say about her actual personality or character, only that she’s persecuted bc of her race. To me, it’s wrong for celebrities to jump in and try to squash a “nobody’s” voice and using the race card instead of facts.

Ironically, I’m currently dealing with an actual racist. A neighbor who loves to drive by my property and roll down his window to threaten me when he sees me taking out the trash or taking photos of my own house. You know, the type of person who hates that “our kind” bought a home in his neighborhood. Kind of surreal to be dealing with this type of crap and then go online and be insinuated as a racist for having an opinion that isn’t pleasing to some people’s ears.


----------



## sdkitty

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> We have no idea if Halle Berry was referring to Mehgan Markle.
> 
> But protecting black women doesn't mean NOT protecting other women (or men or animals or...).
> 
> Just like if you see someone wearing a pink ribbon for breast cancer you probably wouldn't get upset with them and say "well what about skin cancer?"


I saw that Halle thing attached to Meghan.  If it was just general support of WOC, that's different.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

bisousx said:


> Well I was one of the people who took issue with celebrities posting general statements in defense of Meghan when it comes to the issue of her being accused of bullying her employees and driving them to quit.
> 
> Maybe Halle and Gabrielle Union, etc didn’t post for Meghan. Entertainment outlets seem to think so. I don’t have an issue at all if it’s a general statement from anyone, of course black women should be protected.
> 
> I happen to have a soft spot for people in lower positions who are silenced when they try to speak out. (I also think these bullying allegations are coming out a little too late to be effective).
> 
> My mother is a narcissist, and as a child I regularly saw her bully our housekeepers and nannies to tears. Like the Sussex household, ours was a revolving door of employees quitting tearfully. I have so many painful memories of watching these women (who were in helpless positions - usually in between immigration statuses and depending on the cash income) sob in my room or somewhere around the house when they thought no one was looking. I know what it’s like to be under the thumb of a power hungry and status-obsessed narcissist.
> 
> So it’s extra irritating to me to read that Meghan was driving her team to tears, and now celebrities are jumping to Meghan’s defense and don’t have anything to say about her actual personality or character, only that she’s persecuted bc of her race. To me, it’s wrong for celebrities to jump in and try to squash a “nobody’s” voice and using the race card instead of facts.
> 
> Ironically, I’m currently dealing with an actual racist. A neighbor who loves to drive by my property and roll down his window to threaten me when he sees me taking out the trash or taking photos of my own house. You know, the type of person who hates that “our kind” bought a home in his neighborhood. Kind of surreal to be dealing with this type of crap and then go online and be insinuated as a racist for having an opinion that isn’t pleasing to some people’s ears.



I'm so sorry for your experience...with your mother and your neighbor...that's awful. And of course you're extra sensitive and concerned about those issues. I am also all about facts which is part of what is so frustrating to me about that thread...endless speculation with little interest in actual truth. I know (from experience) there isn't much one can do about a narcissistic parent but I wish you peace in dealing with her...and I am hoping you will have a new neighbor too!


----------



## bisousx

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I'm so sorry for your experience...with your mother and your neighbor...that's awful. And of course you're extra sensitive and concerned about those issues. I am also all about facts which is part of what is so frustrating to me about that thread...endless speculation with little interest in actual truth. I know (from experience) there isn't much one can do about a narcissistic parent but I wish you peace in dealing with her...and I am hoping you will have a new neighbor too!



Thank you for that, I do appreciate your kind words  and I appreciate that you stick around in the thread, participate even though it’s frustrating, and speak your mind. It hasn’t gone unnoticed.


----------



## Mimmy

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> We have no idea if Halle Berry was referring to Mehgan Markle.
> 
> But protecting black women doesn't mean NOT protecting other women (or men or animals or...).
> 
> Just like if you see someone wearing a pink ribbon for breast cancer you probably wouldn't get upset with them and say "well what about skin cancer?"


Thank you for the original tweet. We don’t know if she was specifically referring to Meghan.

Sometimes I think that this is part of the problem though. Someone (not you) posts this as a response of support for Meghan and as there is no reason to doubt it, it is accepted by others.


----------



## sdkitty

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Of course people can be judged for their actions, and I agree there are probably many posters don't like Harry and Meghan for very legitimate reasons. But I also noticed there was a lot of overlap between some of the most venomous derisive comments in that thread with endless enthusiastic support for another high profile woman who has displayed many similar traits yet happens to be white (and has been accused of racism herself). I can't say more because it's not allowed here but it has made me wonder.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the entire tweet...



I'm curious about the woman you can't talk about.  political?  the queen?


----------



## 880

I sometimes read the Guardian or BBC and there are a few articles there that suggest that there is a generational divide with younger people being more sympathetic towards Meghan. . . No idea if that’s true or not. 

Perhaps this thread is a place for a NYT piece by Ross Douthat entitled something like Do Liberals care if Books Disappear. (I tried to paste a link, but it didn’t take). essentially about Dr. Seuss and censorship

(I’m more liberal than many and not generally a fan of Douthat, but the article drew me in)

@bisousx, I am so sorry you have to deal with your neighbor on top of everything you’ve had to deal with in the past. Hugs


----------



## maryg1

bisousx said:


> Well I was one of the people who took issue with celebrities posting general statements in defense of Meghan when it comes to the issue of her being accused of bullying her employees and driving them to quit.
> 
> Maybe Halle and Gabrielle Union, etc didn’t post for Meghan. Entertainment outlets seem to think so. I don’t have an issue at all if it’s a general statement from anyone, of course black women should be protected.
> 
> I happen to have a soft spot for people in lower positions who are silenced when they try to speak out. (I also think these bullying allegations are coming out a little too late to be effective).
> 
> My mother is a narcissist, and as a child I regularly saw her bully our housekeepers and nannies to tears. Like the Sussex household, ours was a revolving door of employees quitting tearfully. I have so many painful memories of watching these women (who were in helpless positions - usually in between immigration statuses and depending on the cash income) sob in my room or somewhere around the house when they thought no one was looking. I know what it’s like to be under the thumb of a power hungry and status-obsessed narcissist.
> 
> So it’s extra irritating to me to read that Meghan was driving her team to tears, and now celebrities are jumping to Meghan’s defense and don’t have anything to say about her actual personality or character, only that she’s persecuted bc of her race. To me, it’s wrong for celebrities to jump in and try to squash a “nobody’s” voice and using the race card instead of facts.
> 
> Ironically, I’m currently dealing with an actual racist. A neighbor who loves to drive by my property and roll down his window to threaten me when he sees me taking out the trash or taking photos of my own house. You know, the type of person who hates that “our kind” bought a home in his neighborhood. Kind of surreal to be dealing with this type of crap and then go online and be insinuated as a racist for having an opinion that isn’t pleasing to some people’s ears.


That’s so sad to hear. Is it possible to make a complaint at the police?


----------



## maryg1

sdkitty said:


> I saw that Halle thing attached to Meghan.  If it was just general support of WOC, that's different.


This
Maybe there was another attack we’re not aware of.


----------



## maryg1

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> But I also noticed there was a lot of overlap between some of the most venomous derisive comments in that thread with endless enthusiastic support for another high profile woman who has displayed many similar traits yet happens to be white (and has been accused of racism herself). I can't say more because it's not allowed here but it has made me wonder.


I don’t know who you’re referring but I remember that it was on newspaper that a very famous anchorwoman was  under attack for being mean to people working with her. Her actions weren’t condoned (voices of her not being so kind as she liked to paint herself were circulating for years), but I don’t know if the news is still relevant or if it was buried under sand? Sorry I’m on a completely different continent and we don’t get the same media coverage as in the US.
Call me cynic, but I’m usually very wary of anyone REALLY famous who gets painted as extremely good, generous etc. 
I appreciate those people who don’t want to appear perfect, they come out as more genuine to me. Unfortunately modern society only accept perfectionism nowadays.


----------



## canto bight

Miasylvie said:


> How come only in America can only white people be racists. And it is ironical that the industry that thinks it is so woke is being attacked because all the other institutions have already been. if i was black i would be extremely annoyed at all these companies that most of their young employees dont know who MLK is -decided to laud him on his b-day and send out emails. yes Janie and Jack I am looking at you. Such pandering by corporate white liberal women who just want to be woke. and how racist really  is our country if during black history month there were many blacks recognized for their present work. It didnt seem like conpanies had to go very far to find them when blacks only make up 13% of Americans.
> All this cancelling is being done by white liberal women -yes dear dr seuss.  i am going to the VCA site and enjoy my white privilege. oh i guess Lebron, Riahnna, JayZ, Tyler Perry, Oprah, Michelle and ***** and their children just get to have privilege--- not Black privilege.



You've posted here five times in four years and THIS disgusting rant was one of them????


----------



## sdkitty

canto bight said:


> You've posted here five times in four years and THIS disgusting rant was one of them????


I for one had a hard time understanding what the point was to that post


----------



## Miasylvie

Mimmy said:


> Amanda Gorman who amazes me with with her poetry and style was racially profiled near her home.
> 
> I was lurking on the Harry and Meghan thread for a bit and got a good taste of why I left that thread. I need to remind myself not to visit there at all.
> 
> The posts I read were about how POC (celebrities) were only defending Meghan because she is a WOC. I can understand why people don’t like Meghan but to summarily dismiss any support of her for this reason is mind boggling. I am saddened and angered that race continues to play a significant role in her narrative.
> 
> Usually the posts contain the statement “I am not a racist”. It reminds me of when people start a statement with “No offense but”; you can be certain that what comes after will be offensive.
> 
> The incident involving Amanda Gorman was mentioned in that thread in case the subjects do not seem related.


maybe the staff at the palace werent nice to her because she is a *****, or she doesn't care about royal protocol which for many of the staff is their entire lives. Poor Meghan victim-living in a 14 million house in LA. the fact they went on Oprah to complain is just another indication of the selfishness of these two. She is a user like Wallis Simpson. The royals hated her and she was white. No one knows history-


----------



## Miasylvie

canto bight said:


> You've posted here five times in four years and THIS disgusting rant was one of them????


grow up. i didnt know there were rules when you can post.


----------



## Mimmy

Miasylvie said:


> maybe the staff at the palace werent nice to her because she is a *****, or she doesn't care about royal protocol which for many of the staff is their entire lives. Poor Meghan victim-living in a 14 million house in LA. the fact they went on Oprah to complain is just another indication of the selfishness of these two. She is a user like Wallis Simpson. The royals hated her and she was white. No one knows history-


Hmm... you have definitely made a statement, just not sure why you quoted my post. My post was related to Meghan but had nothing to do with how she treated the staff. I agree with you that she appears to have been at fault in not taking the time to learn about/more about royal protocol.

I am aware of the story/history of Wallis Simpson. I also am aware that she was white; again I just don’t see the relevance to my original post. I don’t know why the assumption that “No one knows history-” is being made.

As more information is coming out I think that it is very possible that she treated the staff poorly; I don’t think that she should be excused for that if it is true.

You have expressed your views and have every right to do so. I don’t understand the need to do so in such an aggressive manner though.

Other posters do not agree with my views but we have been able to engage with one another respectfully and I admire them for that.


----------



## Megs

Hi all - coming in to post that we do not allow politics at all. So any posts that are political will be removed. 

We welcome different view points, but please be respectful of others when you are posting otherwise we will edit your posts.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

I'm fairly certain that MM is not reading the thread so I am not all that worried about her feelings. But I know there are many POC on tpf who have expressed, publicly and privately, their experience here, and how it is not always positive or welcoming. 

So I can only imagine their response to some of the comments in that thread. The dismissiveness bordering on ridicule about even the possibility of racism playing any part in her treatment. The venom about anything and everything she does. And the glee in her missteps and misfortune.

I had really hoped when I saw Megs join last night that she would be a calming moderating influence but clearly that is not what happened. 

I know several POC who have left tpf in the past year and I am starting to understand why. 



Miasylvie said:


> explain with with data not your feelings what is abhorrent. what did i say that isnt true-- and are you another poor victim not wanting to hear the truth. you libs are all the same. All these retail and publishing companies who are cancelling are all run in nyc by white liberal women.



Since I understand this post was reported and remains I am going to respond.

Please say what you really mean...Jewish women. Isn't that right? I am one, I am all of what you seem to abhor and yet we have never met...what is it you would like me to know? I am right here and happy to correspond by pm if you would like to open a dialogue. 



maryg1 said:


> I don’t know who you’re referring but I remember that it was on newspaper that a very famous anchorwoman was  under attack for being mean to people working with her. Her actions weren’t condoned (voices of her not being so kind as she liked to paint herself were circulating for years), but I don’t know if the news is still relevant or if it was buried under sand? Sorry I’m on a completely different continent and we don’t get the same media coverage as in the US.
> Call me cynic, but I’m usually very wary of anyone REALLY famous who gets painted as extremely good, generous etc.
> I appreciate those people who don’t want to appear perfect, they come out as more genuine to me. Unfortunately modern society only accept perfectionism nowadays.



I completely agree. No one is perfect and I am suspect of anyone who claims to be...and concerned about anyone who follows them. Forum rules prevent me from saying much but what I meant is there is another woman who is also married to a man in a leadership position. She actually called herself "the most bullied woman in the word" yet many of the posters in the thread seem to worship her as much as they hate MM. That gives me pause.



bisousx said:


> Thank you for that, I do appreciate your kind words  and I appreciate that you stick around in the thread, participate even though it’s frustrating, and speak your mind. It hasn’t gone unnoticed.



Oh wow that was totally unexpected and means so much to me...thank you so much for YOUR kind words!!!


----------



## canto bight

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I'm fairly certain that MM is not reading the thread so I am not all that worried about her feelings. But I know there are many POC on tpf who have expressed, publicly and privately, their experience here, and how it is not always positive or welcoming.
> 
> So I can only imagine their response to some of the comments in that thread. The dismissiveness bordering on ridicule about even the possibility of racism playing any part in her treatment. The venom about anything and everything she does. And the glee in her missteps and misfortune.
> 
> I had really hoped when I saw Megs join last night that she would be a calming moderating influence but clearly that is not what happened.
> 
> I know several POC who have left tpf in the past year and I am starting to understand why.
> 
> Since I understand this post was reported and remains I am going to respond.
> 
> Please say what you really mean...Jewish women. Isn't that right? I am one, I am all of what you seem to abhor and yet we have never met...what is it you would like me to know? I am right here and happy to correspond by pm if you would like to open a dialogue.
> 
> I completely agree. No one is perfect and I am suspect of anyone who claims to be...and concerned about anyone who follows them. Forum rules prevent me from saying much but what I meant is there is another woman who is also married to a man in a leadership position. She actually called herself "the most bullied woman in the word" yet many of the posters in the thread seem to worship her as much as they hate MM. That gives me pause.



My time here, for one, may be coming to an end.  It makes me sick to my stomach to think that some would rather tiptoe around an  and not offend people who are blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc. than to shut them down in a place where we claim to be welcoming and positive.  But I guess ad revenue is more important.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

canto bight said:


> My time here, for one, may be coming to an end.  It makes me sick to my stomach to think that some would rather tiptoe around an  and not offend people who are blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc. than to shut them down in a place where we claim to be welcoming and positive.  But I guess ad revenue is more important.



I'm so sorry. I get it and all I can say is I truly believe there are more of us in the world who care and want to be and do better. And we will eventually prevail


----------



## Mimmy

canto bight said:


> My time here, for one, may be coming to an end.  It makes me sick to my stomach to think that some would rather tiptoe around an  and not offend people who are blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc. than to shut them down in a place where we claim to be welcoming and positive.  But I guess ad revenue is more important.


I am sorry that you might leave the forum. I know that others have. I agree that it is beyond frustrating to continue to read blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc. posts. Sometimes I will take a break from tPF or only participate in the “fun” threads as reading the other ones makes me feel so badly and negative. 

I understand that it is difficult to monitor the threads but we have been told to report inappropriate/offensive posts and that they will be removed. Unfortunately it seems that there is quite a bit of leeway given to some posters and threads yet other posts are removed fairly quickly.


OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I'm so sorry. I get it and all I can say is I truly believe there are more of us in the world who care and want to be and do better. And we will eventually prevail


I appreciate your optimism and persistence in trying to do the right thing. Earlier in this thread someone posted that it is fairly easy to say that you are not racist; most of us want to say that we are not racist.

What is more difficult is to be anti-racist. It is sometimes difficult to speak out and speak up when racist things are said or racist actions are witnessed. It may make one uncomfortable and may not necessarily be directed at or affect someone directly. Sometimes the easiest action is no action. 

I have witnessed you being anti-racist when you could have just remained silent. I still want to believe that there are more people who are good and are actively trying to be better ... I hope so.


----------



## canto bight

Mimmy said:


> I am sorry that you might leave the forum. I know that others have. I agree that it is beyond frustrating to continue to read blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc. posts. Sometimes I will take a break from tPF or only participate in the “fun” threads as reading the other ones makes me feel so badly and negative.
> 
> I understand that it is difficult to monitor the threads but we have been told to report inappropriate/offensive posts and that they will be removed. Unfortunately it seems that there is quite a bit of leeway given to some posters and threads yet other posts are removed fairly quickly.
> 
> I appreciate your optimism and persistence in trying to do the right thing. Earlier in this thread someone posted that it is fairly easy to say that you are not racist; most of us want to say that we are not racist.
> 
> What is more difficult is to be anti-racist. It is sometimes difficult to speak out and speak up when racist things are said or racist actions are witnessed. It may make one uncomfortable and may not necessarily be directed at or affect someone directly. Sometimes the easiest action is no action.
> 
> I have witnessed you being anti-racist when you could have just remained silent. I still want to believe that there are more people who are good and are actively trying to be better ... I hope so.



I try not to think about it too often but it just came rushing back to me.  In either 2018 or 2019, I was attacked in both comments and messages when I respectfully wrote about my experiences as a POC in Chanel stores.  The original poster made a thread about receiving poor treatment due to race, body size, etc.  I probably should've left then.


----------



## Mimmy

canto bight said:


> I try not to think about it too often but it just came rushing back to me.  In either 2018 or 2019, I was attacked in both comments and messages when I respectfully wrote about my experiences as a POC in Chanel stores.  The original poster made a thread about receiving poor treatment due to race, body size, etc.  I probably should've left then.


I am sorry that you had this experience. I am also sorry that it was allowed in the first place.

I used to try to defend myself or post my reasons for my opinion only to have post after post tell me why my opinion was wrong. Unfortunately it can be a no win situation. I felt like I was not being true to myself if I did not at least take a stand or attempt to defend myself but it became very tiring and hurtful to try to give a reason just for having a differing opinion about something.

Sadly people don’t seem to notice micro aggressions or blatant aggressions for that matter. I could kick myself for going back on the Meghan and Harry thread as I find that thread especially hard to stomach. I get that most don’t seem to like them, and I have stated that I have some problems with their recent actions. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear someone/anyone called “gutter trash” though.

I was also shocked and saddened to hear someone paraphrase a Dr Martin Luther King, Jr quote to criticize Meghan. I don’t think that these things are done innocently, I suppose at best they’re done out of ignorance.


----------



## Megs

ouiouilexiaussi said:


> I’m just trying to understand the total lack of empathy that I’ve seen in this thread. I’ve seen people that say things like, “Oh she knew what she signed up for.” Who knows the amount of pressure and scrutiny that comes with being a royal unless they’ve lived that life before? Anyone seen “The Princess Diaries”? (Lol, just joking) The point is, it can’t be easy for anyone, so I’m wondering why there’s an assumption that they are liars and that the royal family has been just peachy towards them and that racism and/or the belief that she isn’t good enough for him cannot possibly be a factor in any of the crap they’ve been put through.



I think any celebrity, a royal included, receives a ton of scrutiny. It's "easy" for us to judge from our seats and feel like they should put up with it because they are afforded "riches" from this life they live. But unless anyone here is a Royal (which I am not obviously!), there is zero way to understand what they are going through. I would personally never want to live that life and imagine with the perks there are also tons of downsides, probably far more. 

As far as racism MM has experienced goes, I am sure she has received it and that absolutely terrible. It's worse that it's on the world's stage and with social media and news outlets, there is no escaping it for her. I will never know what it feels like to be her or a POC, and that just makes me feel sick that she and so many others are faced with scrutiny and disdain over the color of their skin. 



ouiouilexiaussi said:


> Understandable. Money + fame, especially large amounts of it, comes with a lot of strings... and the decisions you make with it can effect precarious situations. I, personally wouldn’t want to marry a celebrity, let alone a prince. The paparazzi alone would give me a perpetual headache...



Yes! I would honestly never want that life. I think again, easy for me/us as outside looking in to say that they should have just married someone else, but I am a sucker for love and sometimes you find the person you love and their situation or baggage outweighs the thought of not being with them. 



OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I'm fairly certain that MM is not reading the thread so I am not all that worried about her feelings. But I know there are many POC on tpf who have expressed, publicly and privately, their experience here, and how it is not always positive or welcoming.
> 
> So I can only imagine their response to some of the comments in that thread. The dismissiveness bordering on ridicule about even the possibility of racism playing any part in her treatment. The venom about anything and everything she does. And the glee in her missteps and misfortune.
> 
> I had really hoped when I saw Megs join last night that she would be a calming moderating influence but clearly that is not what happened.
> 
> I know several POC who have left tpf in the past year and I am starting to understand why.
> 
> 
> Since I understand this post was reported and remains I am going to respond.
> 
> Please say what you really mean...Jewish women. Isn't that right? I am one, I am all of what you seem to abhor and yet we have never met...what is it you would like me to know? I am right here and happy to correspond by pm if you would like to open a dialogue.



I am sorry my words were not a calming voice in that thread. I could offer more in that way and will. 



canto bight said:


> My time here, for one, may be coming to an end.  It makes me sick to my stomach to think that some would rather tiptoe around an  and not offend people who are blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc. than to shut them down in a place where we claim to be welcoming and positive.  But I guess ad revenue is more important.



I assure you that posts and posters being blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc will be dealt with. I must have missed something because I am not sure which posts you are referring to. I'll pm you.




Mimmy said:


> I am sorry that you might leave the forum. I know that others have. I agree that it is beyond frustrating to continue to read blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc. posts. Sometimes I will take a break from tPF or only participate in the “fun” threads as reading the other ones makes me feel so badly and negative.
> 
> I understand that it is difficult to monitor the threads but we have been told to report inappropriate/offensive posts and that they will be removed. Unfortunately it seems that there is quite a bit of leeway given to some posters and threads yet other posts are removed fairly quickly.
> 
> I appreciate your optimism and persistence in trying to do the right thing. Earlier in this thread someone posted that it is fairly easy to say that you are not racist; most of us want to say that we are not racist.
> 
> What is more difficult is to be anti-racist. It is sometimes difficult to speak out and speak up when racist things are said or racist actions are witnessed. It may make one uncomfortable and may not necessarily be directed at or affect someone directly. Sometimes the easiest action is no action.
> 
> I have witnessed you being anti-racist when you could have just remained silent. I still want to believe that there are more people who are good and are actively trying to be better ... I hope so.



How our report function works is that every report goes into a queue and then a moderator handled it. Sometimes a report has been closed before I see it (my hours and time on the forum has changed so much since having my kids). Please know you can PM me directly anytime to ensure I see the post and problem. 



canto bight said:


> I try not to think about it too often but it just came rushing back to me.  In either 2018 or 2019, I was attacked in both comments and messages when I respectfully wrote about my experiences as a POC in Chanel stores.  The original poster made a thread about receiving poor treatment due to race, body size, etc.  I probably should've left then.



I am truly sorry to hear this, this isn't what I want to hear and it's not a welcoming environment for you then either. I hope more people have taken time to reflect on how our words and actions impact others. Please let me know if there is any way I can help. 



Mimmy said:


> I am sorry that you had this experience. I am also sorry that it was allowed in the first place.
> 
> I used to try to defend myself or post my reasons for my opinion only to have post after post tell me why my opinion was wrong. Unfortunately it can be a no win situation. I felt like I was not being true to myself if I did not at least take a stand or attempt to defend myself but it became very tiring and hurtful to try to give a reason just for having a differing opinion about something.
> 
> Sadly people don’t seem to notice micro aggressions or blatant aggressions for that matter. I could kick myself for going back on the Meghan and Harry thread as I find that thread especially hard to stomach. I get that most don’t seem to like them, and I have stated that I have some problems with their recent actions. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear someone/anyone called “gutter trash” though.
> 
> I was also shocked and saddened to hear someone paraphrase a Dr Martin Luther King, Jr quote to criticize Meghan. I don’t think that these things are done innocently, I suppose at best they’re done out of ignorance.



I will look for the reference to gutter trash that you mentioned. That is truly uncalled for. And I always say people should be able to share their opinions. Don't know why someone would argue over your opinion...!


----------



## ouiouilexiaussi

Megs said:


> I think any celebrity, a royal included, receives a ton of scrutiny. It's "easy" for us to judge from our seats and feel like they should put up with it because they are afforded "riches" from this life they live. But unless anyone here is a Royal (which I am not obviously!), there is zero way to understand what they are going through. I would personally never want to live that life and imagine with the perks there are also tons of downsides, probably far more.
> 
> As far as racism MM has experienced goes, I am sure she has received it and that absolutely terrible. It's worse that it's on the world's stage and with social media and news outlets, there is no escaping it for her. I will never know what it feels like to be her or a POC, and that just makes me feel sick that she and so many others are faced with scrutiny and disdain over the color of their skin.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! I would honestly never want that life. I think again, easy for me/us as outside looking in to say that they should have just married someone else, but I am a sucker for love and sometimes you find the person you love and their situation or baggage outweighs the thought of not being with them.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry my words were not a calming voice in that thread. I could offer more in that way and will.
> 
> 
> 
> I assure you that posts and posters being blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc will be dealt with. I must have missed something because I am not sure which posts you are referring to. I'll pm you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How our report function works is that every report goes into a queue and then a moderator handled it. Sometimes a report has been closed before I see it (my hours and time on the forum has changed so much since having my kids). Please know you can PM me directly anytime to ensure I see the post and problem.
> 
> 
> 
> I am truly sorry to hear this, this isn't what I want to hear and it's not a welcoming environment for you then either. I hope more people have taken time to reflect on how our words and actions impact others. Please let me know if there is any way I can help.
> 
> 
> 
> I will look for the reference to gutter trash that you mentioned. That is truly uncalled for. And I always say people should be able to share their opinions. Don't know why someone would argue over your opinion...!




Thanks so much for responding! We understand that you’re busy, and that moderating such a large forum must be incredibly difficult, especially now, when your family has expanded and there is probably even more traffic to the site since a lot of us are at home. Some of the conversations between folks with opposing views could serve as teaching moments, but often get drowned out with ignorant, snide remarks. As people of color, we know we are outnumbered, and that is ok. It is not ok that a good number of the folks who don’t share our struggles get away with belittling us and then turn around and gaslight us when we call them out. Micro aggressions, while not as visible as blatant racism, are still toxic. Having someone on staff who can identify and point out such toxicity would definitely serve to make this forum a safer space for all.


----------



## Megs

ouiouilexiaussi said:


> Thanks so much for responding! We understand that you’re busy, and that moderating such a large forum must be incredibly difficult, especially now, when your family has expanded and there is probably even more traffic to the site since a lot of us are at home. Some of the conversations between folks with opposing views could serve as teaching moments, but often get drowned out with ignorant, snide remarks. As people of color, we know we are outnumbered, and that is ok. It is not ok that a good number of the folks who don’t share our struggles get away with belittling us and then turn around and gaslight us when we call them out. Micro aggressions, while not as visible as blatant racism, are still toxic. Having someone on staff who can identify and point out such toxicity would definitely serve to make this forum a safer space for all.



Thank you for responding and sharing issues you've seen! I know I sound like a broken record, but please do report these posts that you see and/or PM me directly. We can only see what is reported or shared with us because many times I personally don't see the thread or glance over or not read every single response.

Even if POC are outnumbered here, I want this to be a welcoming and safe place for all. We have such a vast membership spanning the entire world, with people of different backgrounds, and I do want for this to be a fun escape - not a place that feels unsafe ever.


----------



## Mimmy

Megs said:


> I will look for the reference to gutter trash that you mentioned. That is truly uncalled for. And I always say people should be able to share their opinions. Don't know why someone would argue over your opinion...!


Thanks, Megs! I realize that you cannot personally monitor everything. I also realize that the mods may have differing opinions on what is offensive.

I only report things that I think are clearly offensive. I don’t want to bother you but if I think that something is clearly offensive/racist and it is not removed, I will consider PM’ing you.


----------



## 880

canto bight said:


> My time here, for one, may be coming to an end.  It makes me sick to my stomach to think that some would rather tiptoe around an  and not offend people who are blatantly racist/anti-Semitic/etc. than to shut them down in a place where we claim to be welcoming and positive.  But I guess ad revenue is more important.


I appreciate your posts very much. I don’t think anyone should be bashed on this forum for their views (and yes, I am more liberal than most). Hugs

It seems clear that racism is not out of style after all, and attempts to address issues or educate others in the gentlest way possible, for example, with respect to terms like micro aggression etc., are derided and dismissed without any attempt to understand.  Those conversations shouldn’t be polarizing in this day and age. Nor should they be particularly political per se. In other words (apologies for my clumsy words; certainly @Mimmy, @OriginalBalenciaga and @ouiouilexiaussi have said it better), we should be able to discuss racism and other serious issues (as it pertains to fashion and the world of this post) without acrimony.

The conversation has spun beyond the Dr. Seuss issue but here is another article (this time weighted more to the other side than the Ross Douthat one I posted earlier








						Dr Seuss 'cancelled'? There’s nothing new about cutting racism from children’s books
					

Pundits up in arms about removing offensive tropes from his books forget this is part of a long tradition, from Mary Poppins to Nancy Drew




					www.theguardian.com
				




And one that makes the distinction between recalled and cancelled though I’m not sure people who blame the libs are going to care enough to read this 








						'It's a moral decision': Dr Seuss books are being 'recalled' not cancelled, expert says
					

Titles that Dr Seuss Enterprises said it would cease printing contained racist stereotypes, English professor Philip Nel says




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Mimmy said:


> I have witnessed you being anti-racist when you could have just remained silent. I still want to believe that there are more people who are good and are actively trying to be better ... I hope so.



Oh wow thank you so much for saying that. I have reflected a lot about the difference between being not racist and anti racist and I am trying. But it is a lot easier on social media when I have time to get my thoughts and words straight. I find it more challenging in person and I often walk away thinking "I should have said..." 



ouiouilexiaussi said:


> Micro aggressions, while not as visible as blatant racism, are still toxic. Having someone on staff who can identify and point out such toxicity would definitely serve to make this forum a safer space for all.



I think this cannot be emphasized enough. It also takes more effort and risk to understand and call out micro aggressions (and to apologize and do better when we fail ourselves). 



880 said:


> It seems clear that racism is not out of style after all, and attempts to address issues or educate others in the gentlest way possible, for example, with respect to terms like micro aggression etc., are derided and dismissed without any attempt to understand.  Those conversations shouldn’t be polarizing in this day and age. Nor should they be particularly political per se.



That people view racism as a political topic is both heartbreaking and infuriating  to me.


----------



## jade

maryg1 said:


> Thank you for the explanation.
> If I’m not wrong, Halle Berry twitted something  like “it’s always protect Black Women”, that sounded a support tweet only based on the skin colour to me.





OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Of course people can be judged for their actions, and I agree there are probably many posters don't like Harry and Meghan for very legitimate reasons. But I also noticed there was a lot of overlap between some of the most venomous derisive comments in that thread with endless enthusiastic support for another high profile woman who has displayed many similar traits yet happens to be white (and has been accused of racism herself). I can't say more because it's not allowed here but it has made me wonder.
> 
> Here's the entire tweet...




When I see things like "protect Black women" it is a way to call out that Black women do not often have the opportunity to air grievances and have them believed. It is really about making space, and not criticizing - when other people exhibit similar behaviors and are not criticized. 

So much of the reaction to Meghan seems to be colored by this thought she should be grateful to be married to a royal, and has no right to complain. She is "lucky" to be there and doesn't deserve it. And Meghan's take it or leave it vibe isn't appreciated.


----------



## jenayb

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Just like if you see someone wearing a pink ribbon for breast cancer you probably wouldn't get upset with them and say "well what about skin cancer?"



I have to say.. this is nowhere near being the same thing.. not even the same ballpark.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

jenaywins said:


> I have to say.. this is nowhere near being the same thing.. not even the same ballpark.



Can you say more about what you object to?


----------



## jenayb

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Can you say more about what you object to?



It is not that I object; I have enjoyed reading your posts in this thread and think that you come across as very thoughtful and open to objective opinions & different perspectives. I simply disagree with this observation and feel that there is MUCH more colour and context behind Tweets/sentiments like Halle's.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

jenaywins said:


> It is not that I object; I have enjoyed reading your posts in this thread and think that you come across as very thoughtful and open to objective opinions & different perspectives. I simply disagree with this observation and feel that there is MUCH more colour and context behind Tweets/sentiments like Halle's.



I'd love to understand why...either on the thread or by pm...if you'd like to explain.

I was equating it to when someone says "black lives matter" and the response is "all lives matter".

I don't think the opposite of "protect black women" is "don't protect white women"?


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Megs said:


> Even if POC are outnumbered here, I want this to be a welcoming and safe place for all. We have such a vast membership spanning the entire world, with people of different backgrounds, and I do want for this to be a fun escape - not a place that feels unsafe ever.



Unfortunately it’s not though. POC are telling us it’s not.

I do realize there are challenges. This is a forum about bags and where people often come to escape the problems of the world and everyday life. And the MM thread probably gets more hits in a day (maybe sometimes in a minute lol) than this one will in total. So as a business owner you’re in a really difficult position.

But I hope you understand as another white woman I’m trying to call you in not out. Because these were your words in June and I agree they matter even more now...

_“I've spent a lot of time over the weekend reflecting how I can do better personally and how we can do better as a business. We must open our minds to the reality of racism faced by many across America and aim to become anti-racist in both thought and action. We need to teach our children, we need to have tough conversations with family and friends, we need to support black owned businesses, we need to vote, we need to donate to organizations that support what is happening in Minnesota and beyond, and we need to do better. When the social media exposure slows, it will matter just as much if not more, how we proceed from here. We must stand up to what’s wrong, speak up, and take action to promote equality and tolerance on every level. Most importantly, we must listen and be allies. We should listen not to fix, but listen to learn.”_


----------



## 880

jenaywins said:


> It is not that I object; I have enjoyed reading your posts in this thread and think that you come across as very thoughtful and open to objective opinions & different perspectives. I simply disagree with this observation and feel that there is MUCH more colour and context behind Tweets/sentiments like Halle's.


Will check out Halles posts; thank you for drawing attention to them 

@OriginalBalenciaga, I like the phrase ‘calling you in;’ it seems more evocative of let’s broaden the circle, not narrow it. Am not sure that those who paint these issues as political will care to join even the discussion and that is a sad outcome for everyone.


----------



## Megs

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Unfortunately it’s not though. POC are telling us it’s not.
> 
> I do realize there are challenges. This is a forum about bags and where people often come to escape the problems of the world and everyday life. And the MM thread probably gets more hits in a day (maybe sometimes in a minute lol) than this one will in total. So as a business owner you’re in a really difficult position.
> 
> But I hope you understand as another white woman I’m trying to call you in not out. Because these were your words in June and I agree they matter even more now...
> 
> _“I've spent a lot of time over the weekend reflecting how I can do better personally and how we can do better as a business. We must open our minds to the reality of racism faced by many across America and aim to become anti-racist in both thought and action. We need to teach our children, we need to have tough conversations with family and friends, we need to support black owned businesses, we need to vote, we need to donate to organizations that support what is happening in Minnesota and beyond, and we need to do better. When the social media exposure slows, it will matter just as much if not more, how we proceed from here. We must stand up to what’s wrong, speak up, and take action to promote equality and tolerance on every level. Most importantly, we must listen and be allies. We should listen not to fix, but listen to learn.”_



I am trying to keep up with the posts in the MM and Prince Harry thread and delete, edit, and issue warnings when needed. I am sure I have missed hundreds of posts, if not thousands, so if there is something you see there that is a problem, let me know. Because I hear people feel that thread has racist remarks, I am actively in it looking to stop and remove that from happening. 

I have said this in that thread and believe it: we can not understand or know the level of racism Meghan felt. It is on the world stage. And I am certain it has happened to her and I am certain it is a feeling I will never understand as a white woman. I do not want to perpetuate that here.


----------



## limom

Megs said:


> I am trying to keep up with the posts in the MM and Prince Harry thread and delete, edit, and issue warnings when needed. I am sure I have missed hundreds of posts, if not thousands, so if there is something you see there that is a problem, let me know. Because I hear people feel that thread has racist remarks, I am actively in it looking to stop and remove that from happening.
> 
> I have said this in that thread and believe it: we can not understand or know the level of racism Meghan felt. It is on the world stage. And I am certain it has happened to her and I am certain it is a feeling I will never understand as a white woman. I do not want to perpetuate that here.


I think that the best solution for the forum would be to have moderators that are Black.
Have you considered that?


----------



## Megs

limom said:


> I think that the best solution for the forum would be to have moderators that are Black.
> Have you considered that?



I know we have had Black and other POC moderators over the years because I've personally met some of our mods over the years and so I know their race. Fun story, when I took an internship in NYC many years ago, one of our first moderators checked the apartment I was looking to sublease for me since I was in Ohio and couldn't get to NYC to see it for myself first. She was an angel, we went to dinner a few times over that summer.

Right now a lot of mods I do not know personally, I only know their screen names and the areas they frequent and post in. I think it is both a major plus and can be a negative of having screen names - on one hand we have a very wide and diverse group, from tons of different backgrounds, ethnicities, races, cultures, and countries that have come together here to share a similar passion. That passion is universal and that is beautiful. On the other hand, you can hide behind a screen name...


----------



## limom

Megs said:


> I know we have had Black and other POC moderators over the years because I've personally met some of our mods over the years and so I know their race. Fun story, when I took an internship in NYC many years ago, one of our first moderators checked the apartment I was looking to sublease for me since I was in Ohio and couldn't get to NYC to see it for myself first. She was an angel, we went to dinner a few times over that summer.
> 
> Right now a lot of mods I do not know personally, I only know their screen names and the areas they frequent and post in. I think it is both a major plus and can be a negative of having screen names - on one hand we have a very wide and diverse group, from tons of different backgrounds, ethnicities, races, cultures, and countries that have come together here to share a similar passion. That passion is universal and that is beautiful. On the other hand, you can hide behind a screen name...


I had no clues that you did not know the people IRL.
Not an easy problem to fix.
Best wishes


----------



## Megs

limom said:


> I had no clues that you did not know the people IRL.
> Not an easy problem to fix.
> Best wishes



Nope! Our moderators are all volunteers who show knowledge of the specific area (when it comes to brands) and we feel has a level head in how they interact with others. The moderator team changes constantly, due to people having less time on the boards, or not wanting to moderate, etc. We love our moderators, but I don't know them personally and we don't ask personal questions about their race/background etc.


----------



## Greenredapple

I have been following this with much interest. While not by any means perfect for dealing heavy subjects such as racism, it breeds a healthier culture for learning through (positive?) encounters: sharing our struggles and our own individual experiences.


----------



## Greenredapple

I remember the debacle and controversy surrounding Dior's couture showcase/short film(esque) with the Pre-Raphiaelite aesthetics where they predominantly utilized white models (please note I am aware that there are many notions and conceptions regarding the concept of whiteness itself). Dior and Maria Grazia and the director were all called out and rightfully so. On the other hand many and there were a lot of people who defended Dior arguing that 'it's art and you shouldn't mess with art'. This to me reeks like some couldn't handle the criticism. To me even 'art' can be rigged with bias while utilizing decades or even centuries old traditions that came with the territory of exploiting, oppressing and approabiating the 'others'.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Megs said:


> Nope! Our moderators are all volunteers who show knowledge of the specific area (when it comes to brands) and we feel has a level head in how they interact with others. The moderator team changes constantly, due to people having less time on the boards, or not wanting to moderate, etc. We love our moderators, but I don't know them personally and we don't ask personal questions about their race/background etc.



I get it! As a past PTA president I remember all too well how challenging it is to find volunteers....and we are usually so grateful to have (free!) help that we don't think beyond general recruiting. 

But now it has become a priority on all the nonprofit boards I belong to that we thoughtfully, carefully and purposefully diversify our membership and especially leadership. 

It can be uncomfortable, I never want my friends to think I am approaching them to fill a checkbox, but I think we need to push past those potentially awkward moments because representation is so important. 

I'm not sure what your organizational structure is but it looks like there may be mods and admins...I am guessing admins get paid so perhaps you can start by thinking about how you recruit new staff when there is an opening...or even creating a D&I position whether voluntary or paid?


----------



## jelliedfeels

Have just heard about the controversy at Teen Vogue - not sure how they could best move on from this. 








						Ulta pauses ad campaign over Alexi McCammond tweet controversy
					

Problems continue to mount for Conde Nast as cosmetics giant Ulta Beauty slams the brakes on a Teen Vogue ad campaign over offensive tweets by the mag’s newly tapped editor-in-chief Alexi McC…




					nypost.com
				



Philip lim has also spoken out about violence against Asian-Americans as well.


----------



## limom

jelliedfeels said:


> Have just heard about the controversy at Teen Vogue - not sure how they could best move on from this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ulta pauses ad campaign over Alexi McCammond tweet controversy
> 
> 
> Problems continue to mount for Conde Nast as cosmetics giant Ulta Beauty slams the brakes on a Teen Vogue ad campaign over offensive tweets by the mag’s newly tapped editor-in-chief Alexi McC…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philip lim has also spoken out about violence against Asian-Americans as well.


Pitting POC against one another while White Supremacy is  the major  problem...


----------



## jelliedfeels

limom said:


> Pitting POC against one another while White Supremacy is  the major  problem...


Im wondering what teen vogue should do. I’d assume Ulta is quite a big client to lose. 
McCammond tweeted what she tweeted but she has apologised and as you say white professionals have got away with worse. I don’t know.


----------



## limom

jelliedfeels said:


> Im wondering what teen vogue should do. I’d assume Ulta is quite a big client to lose.
> McCammond tweeted what she tweeted but she has apologised and as you say white professionals have got away with worse. I don’t know.


First of all, I am really surprised that she was not thoroughly vetted. I have known problematic applicants to be rejected for much lower positions. So I am side eying Conde.
However, we need to make people accountable for their mistakes and transitions.
If she was that careless and ignorant to make those tweets, she can not be in an executive position.
Teen Vogue will not hire her, imho.
As far as my comment about White Supremacy, I meant it in a more general sense.


----------



## Greenredapple

jelliedfeels said:


> Have just heard about the controversy at Teen Vogue - not sure how they could best move on from this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ulta pauses ad campaign over Alexi McCammond tweet controversy
> 
> 
> Problems continue to mount for Conde Nast as cosmetics giant Ulta Beauty slams the brakes on a Teen Vogue ad campaign over offensive tweets by the mag’s newly tapped editor-in-chief Alexi McC…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philip lim has also spoken out about violence against Asian-Americans as well.



Thank you for bringing the issue up.


----------



## canto bight

jelliedfeels said:


> Im wondering what teen vogue should do. I’d assume Ulta is quite a big client to lose.
> McCammond tweeted what she tweeted but she has apologised and as you say white professionals have got away with worse. I don’t know.



I feel like she has to go.  Yes, white professionals have gotten away with worse.  But this isn't okay and college aged students are old enough to know that.


----------



## Greenredapple

jelliedfeels said:


> Im wondering what teen vogue should do. I’d assume Ulta is quite a big client to lose.
> McCammond tweeted what she tweeted but she has apologised and as you say white professionals have got away with worse. I don’t know.



I hope this is something she can learn from and hopefully she will continue to apologize for and express her genuine remorse. 

To be honest I have mixed feelings regarding holding someone forever accountable for something they did way back. Don't get me wrong. What she did was really bad. But on the other hand people can change their views, opinions over time for the better (or for worse). I genuinely feel like everybody should be given the chance to evolve and grow and learn to be better. Based on my experiences alone it's a lifelong and very complicated process that requires a lot of self-reflection. 

I was a victim of racism and migroaggressions throughout my life. The disappointing ones came from those who belonged to other ethnic minorities. I have since learned to forgive these individuals. The only logical explanation I can now come up with is that they came from a bad place themselves. And ultimately the good trumps the bad since I have had a lot more positive experiences with those who came from diverse religion, language and ethnic minorities.


----------



## limom

Greenredapple said:


> I hope this is something she can learn from and hopefully she will continue to apologize for and express her genuine remorse.
> 
> To be honest I have mixed feelings regarding holding someone forever accountable for something they did way back. Don't get me wrong. What she did was really bad. But on the other hand people can change their views, opinions over time for the better (or for worse). I genuinely feel like everybody should be given the chance to evolve and grow for the better and in learn in the process of this.
> 
> I was a victim of racism and migroaggressions throughout my life. The disappointing ones came from those who belonged to other ethnic minorities. I have since learned to forgive them since the only logical explanation I came up with is that they came from a bad place themselves. And ultimately the good trumps the bad since I have had a lot more positive experiences with those who came from diverse religion, language and ethnic minorities.


Agreed that she should not be held back forever. This is the biggest lesson of her life. If she was smart enough to even be considered for the position, she will rise again, imho.


----------



## jelliedfeels

limom said:


> First of all, I am really surprised that she was not thoroughly vetted. I have known problematic applicants to be rejected for much lower positions. So I am side eying Conde.
> However, we need to make people accountable for their mistakes and transitions.
> If she was that careless and ignorant to make those tweets, she can not be in an executive position.
> Teen Vogue will not hire her, imho.
> As far as my comment about White Supremacy, I meant it in a more general sense.


Ah sorry I misunderstood you. The more I think about it the more I think she will be asked to turn down the post or the offer will be withdrawn. 
It is worrying that Conde didn’t vet her more thoroughly.


----------



## jelliedfeels

Greenredapple said:


> I hope this is something she can learn from and hopefully she will continue to apologize for and express her genuine remorse.
> 
> To be honest I have mixed feelings regarding holding someone forever accountable for something they did way back. Don't get me wrong. What she did was really bad. But on the other hand people can change their views, opinions over time for the better (or for worse). I genuinely feel like everybody should be given the chance to evolve and grow and learn to be better. Based on my experiences alone it's a lifelong and very complicated process that requires a lot of self-reflection.
> 
> I was a victim of racism and migroaggressions throughout my life. The disappointing ones came from those who belonged to other ethnic minorities. I have since learned to forgive these individuals. The only logical explanation I can now come up with is that they came from a bad place themselves. And ultimately the good trumps the bad since I have had a lot more positive experiences with those who came from diverse religion, language and ethnic minorities.


Yes I think it is worth bearing in mind she said these comments in the past and that the climate of racism and violence towards Asian-Americans has worsened since. But, I can see that, because this is such a hostile time for Asian-Americans, to see a progressively aligned magazine hire someone with this past might be especially insulting.

 Edit: I do also think because racism against Asian-Americans is consistently underreported,  teen vogue should take this opportunity to publicise the issue of anti-Asian racism and  the rise in racist attacks.

I’m glad that you have the strength to forgive people who have abused you in these horrible ways. It takes a lot to be the bigger person.

edit: I also think if she can learn from her mistakes she will be able to make a comeback.


----------



## canto bight

jelliedfeels said:


> Ah sorry I misunderstood you. The more I think about it the more I think she will be asked to turn down the post or the offer will be withdrawn.
> It is worrying that Conde didn’t vet her more thoroughly.



I don't have the most faith in Conde Nast if their past is any indication.

Plus, today's Teen Vogue readers wouldn't want this person as the publication's editor.  Today's teenagers deserve better anyway.


----------



## Mimmy

canto bight said:


> I don't have the most faith in Conde Nast if their past is any indication.
> 
> Plus, today's Teen Vogue readers wouldn't want this person as the publication's editor.  Today's teenagers deserve better anyway.


From what I have read Condé Nast plans to keep Alexi McCammond as the new editor of Teen Vogue; at least at this time. The publication and Ms. McCammond issued apologies/statements and made a commitment to support the AAPI community and deal with some of these issues in their digital publication.

Yes, I believe that people and organizations can change. Unfortunately, this is the what we see and hear happening time after time related to a variety of issues and experiences affecting POC. Promises are made to do better and change and then these promises are forgotten.

Who will hold Teen Vogue and Ms. McCammond accountable? I think that it will be interesting to see what Ulta decides ultimately to do with their ads. Frankly this is the only thing that I see really influencing them; a blow to their revenue.

I really hope that things will change but at this point their apologies and commitment to the AAPI community amounts to nothing more than lip service.


----------



## Greenredapple

jelliedfeels said:


> Edit: I do also think because racism against Asian-Americans is consistently underreported, teen vogue should take this opportunity to publicise the issue of anti-Asian racism and the rise in racist attacks.



Well said!


----------



## limom

Mimmy said:


> From what I have read Condé Nast plans to keep Alexi McCammond as the new editor of Teen Vogue; at least at this time. The publication and Ms. McCammond issued apologies/statements and made a commitment to support the AAPI community and deal with some of these issues in their digital publication.
> 
> Yes, I believe that people and organizations can change. Unfortunately, this is the what we see and hear happening time after time related to a variety of issues and experiences affecting POC. Promises are made to do better and change and then these promises are forgotten.
> 
> Who will hold Teen Vogue and Ms. McCammond accountable? I think that it will be interesting to see what Ulta decides ultimately to do with their ads. Frankly this is the only thing that I see really influencing them; a blow to their revenue.
> 
> I really hope that things will change but at this point their apologies and commitment to the AAPI community amounts to nothing more than lip service.


Wow!
They are keeping her on?
Did they know all along and hired her anyways?
Commitment to support the AAPI community?
We shall see.
She also made homophobic tweets????
This hiring is wrong, wrong, wrong.








						Teen Vogue Staff Rail Against New Editor-in-Chief’s Past Tweets Mocking Asians
					

The digital outlet’s editorial staffers on Monday said they sent a letter to Condé Nast bosses expressing multiple concerns with their newly hired editor.



					www.thedailybeast.com
				











						Teen Vogue EIC Alexi McCammond's apology to Asians isn't enough | CNN
					

The resurfaced tweets of Alexi McCammond conjure up the all too familiar feelings of marginalization that many Asian Americans have often suppressed, writes Amara Walker, whose initial reaction was to call for McCammond to step aside as Teen Vogue's new editor in chief but now thinks that it...




					www.cnn.com


----------



## jade

limom said:


> Agreed that she should not be held back forever. This is the biggest lesson of her life. If she was smart enough to even be considered for the position, she will rise again, imho.



The thing is, this issue already came up like 2 years ago in another context for a new role. She apologized then. So I am sure Conde was like this was addressed then - no need to bring it up. Of course this moment feels a lot different than then, because Asian people are speaking up more about their own battles with racism.

I do not know what atonement should look like in this case. And exactly how we should handle stuff people said or did 10 years ago. I guess my big question is how has she changed since then and addressed these thoughts and statements. Did they represent a long standing pattern of behavior or more of a one off or temporary point of view?

People need to be held accountable for their prior acts, but they should not be held hostage by them if they have made sincere efforts to make amends.


----------



## limom

jade said:


> The thing is, this issue already came up like 2 years ago in another context for a new role. She apologized then. So I am sure Conde was like this was addressed then - no need to bring it up. Of course this moment feels a lot different than then, because Asian people are speaking up more about their own battles with racism.
> 
> I do not know what atonement should look like in this case. And exactly how we should handle stuff people said or did 10 years ago. I guess my big question is how has she changed since then and addressed these thoughts and statements. Did they represent a long standing pattern of behavior or more of a one off or temporary point of view?
> 
> People need to be held accountable for their prior acts, but they should not be held hostage by them if they have made sincere efforts to make amends.


Fair points. 
But it is troubling that this person would make those types of comments 10 years ago when students were already warned about their digital footprints.
Also, I am far from being Teen Vogue target audience, so if the teenagers feel comfortable with this person’s rehabilitation, more power to them.
It is up to the Z kids to decide imho.
I also can‘t imagine a person making both homophobic and anti Asian statements.  Where was she raised???
What was her explanation?


----------



## jade

limom said:


> Fair points.
> But it is troubling that this person would make those types of comments 10 years ago when students were already warned about their digital footprints.
> Also, I am far from being Teen Vogue target audience, so if the teenagers feel comfortable with this person’s rehabilitation, more power to them.
> It is up to the Z kids to decide imho.
> I also can‘t imagine a person making both homophobic and anti Asian statements.  Where was she raised???
> What was her explanation?



I have been trying to dig up these tweets. Here is an Instagram post with some anti-Asian ones (of course not sure if there are more etc).


----------



## limom

From what I read, she made a comment against a teacher and made a disparaging comment about Asian eyes.
I can’t find anything about the homophobic statements at all.
One thing that is curious, is that she has zero fashion experience and very little journalistic experience overall.
4 years working experience and she is hired as editor in chief?
I don’t get it.


----------



## jade

limom said:


> From what I read, she made a comment against a teacher and made a disparaging comment about Asian eyes.
> I can’t find anything about the homophobic statements at all.
> One thing that is curious, is that she has zero fashion experience and very little journalistic experience overall.
> 4 years working experience and she is hired as editor in chief?
> I don’t get it.


Yeah that is a bit weird. Seems like an odd pick for that reason. But I guess on that flip side Teen Vogue is 50% political.  So maybe she is supposed to represent their progressive news aspirations.


----------



## Mimmy

In January I posted a couple of photos that were removed for being political. They were designs by two designers who are notable and yes, happen to be Black.

I still wanted to post something about Sergio Hudson and Christopher John Rogers and I finally found articles about both men that I don’t think are “political”.

Unfortunately, the article about Sergio Hudson is older. There are newer and better articles about him but I think they would be removed as being political. This article still gives a glimpse into his thinking.

I think that both designers are part of the positive change in fashion.


----------



## limom

Mimmy said:


> In January I posted a couple of photos that were removed for being political. They were designs by two designers who are notable and yes, happen to be Black.
> 
> I still wanted to post something about Sergio Hudson and Christopher John Rogers and I finally found articles about both men that I don’t think are “political”.
> 
> Unfortunately, the article about Sergio Hudson is older. There are newer and better articles about him but I think they would be removed as being political. This article still gives a glimpse into his thinking.
> 
> I think that both designers are part of the positive change in fashion.


Agreed.
Were Dolce and Gabbana discussed as well?
What is up with those two?
I love their fashions but first they make really strange homophobic statements and now they are also anti Asian?








						Dolce & Gabbana cancels China show amid 'racist' ad controversy
					

Amid accusations of racism, and boycotts from models and celebrities, the fashion house postponed its Shanghai event Wednesday night -- just hours before it was due to start.




					www.cnn.com
				



.


----------



## Mimmy

limom said:


> Agreed.
> Were Dolce and Gabbana discussed as well?
> What is up with those two?
> I love their fashions but first they make really strange homophobic statements and now they are also anti Asian?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dolce & Gabbana cancels China show amid 'racist' ad controversy
> 
> 
> Amid accusations of racism, and boycotts from models and celebrities, the fashion house postponed its Shanghai event Wednesday night -- just hours before it was due to start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I am not sure if Dolce & Gabbana have been discussed in this thread but they have been discussed in other threads. They have made other racist and homophobic comments as well. This ad campaign was from 2018 I think. 

I have never been a fan of their bags so boycotting  them is not a problem for me. I have seen things I like from them here and there but make a point to steer clear. They have plenty of fans including celebs so my boycott of their products is insignificant but it is important to me.

Here is another article summarizing some of their past controversies.


----------



## limom

Mimmy said:


> I am not sure if Dolce & Gabbana have been discussed in this thread but they have been discussed in other threads. They have made other racist and homophobic comments as well. This ad campaign was from 2018 I think.
> 
> I have never been a fan of their bags so boycotting  them is not a problem for me. I have seen things I like from them here and there but make a point to steer clear. They have plenty of fans including celebs so my boycott of their products is insignificant but it is important to me.
> 
> Here is another article summarizing some of their past controversies.


They are suing DIETPRADA right now.


----------



## limom

And she resigned!








						Teen Vogue Editor Resigns After Fury Over Racist Tweets (Published 2021)
					

The hiring of Alexi McCammond, who was supposed to start at the Condé Nast publication next week, drew complaints because of racist and homophobic tweets she had posted a decade ago.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## jelliedfeels

limom said:


> And she resigned!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teen Vogue Editor Resigns After Fury Over Racist Tweets (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> The hiring of Alexi McCammond, who was supposed to start at the Condé Nast publication next week, drew complaints because of racist and homophobic tweets she had posted a decade ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


I just came to post this.
I’m not surprised. Aside from the ethics of the situation, learly caused a lot of division in the office and  they would have lost a lot of credibility.

They put a  statement on twitter


			https://mobile.twitter.com/TeenVogue
		


I hadn’t heard anything about her making homophobic tweets. I know her boyfriend was sacked from his job for doing so.


----------



## jelliedfeels

Mimmy said:


> In January I posted a couple of photos that were removed for being political. They were designs by two designers who are notable and yes, happen to be Black.
> 
> I still wanted to post something about Sergio Hudson and Christopher John Rogers and I finally found articles about both men that I don’t think are “political”.
> 
> Unfortunately, the article about Sergio Hudson is older. There are newer and better articles about him but I think they would be removed as being political. This article still gives a glimpse into his thinking.
> 
> I think that both designers are part of the positive change in fashion.


It’s always interesting to learn about new designers. I like Christopher John  Rogers’ palette a lot.


----------



## jelliedfeels

Mimmy said:


> In January I posted a couple of photos that were removed for being political. They were designs by two designers who are notable and yes, happen to be Black.
> 
> I still wanted to post something about Sergio Hudson and Christopher John Rogers and I finally found articles about both men that I don’t think are “political”.
> 
> Unfortunately, the article about Sergio Hudson is older. There are newer and better articles about him but I think they would be removed as being political. This article still gives a glimpse into his thinking.
> 
> I think that both designers are part of the positive change in fashion.


Hi a CJR top is on one of the British vogue covers this month:








						The April Issue Of British Vogue Is An Ode To Joy
					

“In recent times we have all had an insight into the importance of joy, and why it should never be taken for granted,” writes Edward Enninful in his April editor’s letter




					www.vogue.co.uk
				



I think it’s this top: 








						Collection 007
					

Christopher John Rogers




					christopherjohnrogers.com
				




you can’t really tell as Brit vogue only does headshots as covers most the time so you can’t see the clothes properly - sorry pet peeve.


----------



## 880

limom said:


> made a disparaging comment about Asian eyes.
> I can’t find anything about the homophobic statements at all.
> One thing that is curious, is that she has zero fashion experience and very little journalistic experience overall.
> 4 years working experience and she is hired as editor in chief?
> I don’t get it.



@limom, I came back on the thread bc I read somewhere that those who made the decision to hire her were well aware of her past history of tweets And her subsequent apologies some years ago. as another poster pointed out, people can make mistakes, acknowledge them and grow, but if she didn’t have the relevant experience, I agree with you and cannot understand why was she considered in the first place.



Mimmy said:


> In January I posted a couple of photos that were removed for being political. They were designs by two designers who are notable and yes, happen to be Black.
> 
> I still wanted to post something about Sergio Hudson and Christopher John Rogers and I finally found articles about both men that I don’t think are “political”.


im not sure why photos of  designs would be removed at all. Even if they may express a political viewpoint, it’s still part of the history of fashion and design? If they touched upon the issues of race or gender, I would say, as others have said in the above posts. That race and gender should not be political as they are universal to all of us.


----------



## limom

It was incredibly careless for Conde to hire her in the first place.
Her peers have spoken, they are not forgiving her yet. So there, it is.
Was she a scapegoat? perhaps


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

So as we witness the tragic results of the rise in anti Asian racism juxtaposed with the George Floyd trial I keep reading comments of disdain for “the woke liberal left“ and “our current woke culture.” I’m going to give these posters grace and assume they aren’t aware of the origins of “woke” but I’m starting to wonder if tpf is a **** site...?


----------



## limom

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> So as we witness the tragic results of the rise in anti Asian racism juxtaposed with the George Floyd trial I keep reading comments of disdain for “the woke liberal left“ and “our current woke culture.” I’m going to give these posters grace and assume they aren’t aware of the origins of “woke” but I’m starting to wonder if tpf is a **** site...?


Woke is the new snowflake.
What can you do?
Frankly, there is no changing some people mind at this time. 
The ignore button  is my best friend.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

limom said:


> Woke is the new snowflake.
> What can you do?
> Frankly, there is no changing some people mind at this time.
> The ignore button  is my best friend.



I guess you’re right. It’s just bizarre...accusations of corruption while praising the previous occupant, I mean the mental gymnastics must be exhausting  And we’re supposed to stay away from politics but those comments are okay? It just makes me wonder if most posters here have similar viewpoints...and understand why so many POC have left.

I totally understand the concern that political correctness can go too far, especially when it’s purely performative, and I don't agree with cancel culture, but how is being woke and empathetic a bad thing? Is it better to be ignorant and arrogant?


----------



## limom

Some people needs to be cancelled aka being held responsible for their actions. 
Also, if something said is problematic, reporting the post is a must


----------



## jelliedfeels

I mean to be fair, words evolve over time and socio-political words tend to change context quicker than most. 
‘right-on’, ‘hippy’, ‘hotep’ and ‘masc’ are all terms I can think of which have developed a pejorative meaning despite them being used as positive attributes originally.

That said, I think there is a lot strawmanning and partisan sweeping statements in the world.


----------



## sdkitty

jelliedfeels said:


> I mean to be fair, words evolve over time and socio-political words tend to change context quicker than most.
> ‘right-on’, ‘hippy’, ‘hotep’ and ‘masc’ are all terms I can think of which have developed a pejorative meaning despite them being used as positive attributes originally.
> 
> That said, I think there is a lot strawmanning and partisan sweeping statements in the world.


and context and who is using the word matter.  just as an example the word feminist could be a positive to most people but a dirty word to some.


----------



## Mimmy

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> So as we witness the tragic results of the rise in anti Asian racism juxtaposed with the George Floyd trial I keep reading comments of disdain for “the woke liberal left“ and “our current woke culture.” I’m going to give these posters grace and assume they aren’t aware of the origins of “woke” but I’m starting to wonder if tpf is a **** site...?


I am no longer reading certain threads at all. I don’t find it entertaining anymore. It just upsets me. 

This is a depressing time for me. I am Asian American and am deeply saddened and disgusted by the increase in micro aggressions and hate crimes against Asian Americans. I am also sickened by the killing of George Floyd. I think that I know exactly what you are saying but it is actually the trial of Derek Chauvin not the trial of George Floyd. Sometimes you get the impression that it is George Floyd who is on trial though.

I still enjoy reading and participating in the handbag and shopping threads but should probably decide if participation on tPF is something I should continue to do.

Thank you for your thoughtful posts and effort to try to present another viewpoint. I really don’t think that other viewpoints are desired, encouraged or respected though. 

I don’t report many posts and I realize that the mods cannot see everything. I don’t feel like reading things that make me feel badly anymore and frankly don’t see the point in reporting more of these posts as obviously most others on this forum don’t feel the way that I do.


----------



## limom

Mimmy said:


> I am no longer reading certain threads at all. I don’t find it entertaining anymore. It just upsets me.
> 
> This is a depressing time for me. I am Asian American and am deeply saddened and disgusted by the increase in micro aggressions and hate crimes against Asian Americans. I am also sickened by the killing of George Floyd. I think that I know exactly what you are saying but it is actually the trial of Derek Chauvin not the trial of George Floyd. Sometimes you get the impression that it is George Floyd who is on trial though.
> 
> I still enjoy reading and participating in the handbag and shopping threads but should probably decide if participation on tPF is something I should continue to do.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful posts and effort to try to present another viewpoint. I really don’t think that other viewpoints are desired, encouraged or respected though.
> 
> I don’t report many posts and I realize that the mods cannot see everything. I don’t feel like reading things that make me feel badly anymore and frankly don’t see the point in reporting more of these posts as obviously most others on this forum don’t feel the way that I do.


I hear you casual racism and micro aggressions are draining.


----------



## sdkitty

Mimmy said:


> I am no longer reading certain threads at all. I don’t find it entertaining anymore. It just upsets me.
> 
> This is a depressing time for me. I am Asian American and am deeply saddened and disgusted by the increase in micro aggressions and hate crimes against Asian Americans. I am also sickened by the killing of George Floyd. I think that I know exactly what you are saying but it is actually the trial of Derek Chauvin not the trial of George Floyd. Sometimes you get the impression that it is George Floyd who is on trial though.
> 
> I still enjoy reading and participating in the handbag and shopping threads but should probably decide if participation on tPF is something I should continue to do.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful posts and effort to try to present another viewpoint. I really don’t think that other viewpoints are desired, encouraged or respected though.
> 
> I don’t report many posts and I realize that the mods cannot see everything. I don’t feel like reading things that make me feel badly anymore and frankly don’t see the point in reporting more of these posts as obviously most others on this forum don’t feel the way that I do.


On a (maybe) lighter note, I get emails daily from people I definitely don't like - and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like either.  I generally delete them w/o reading.  One time when one of them was asking for a donation I responded - "dream on"
I doubt anyone read my message.  I'd like to know where they get my email address and why they think I would contribute to them.


----------



## redney

Mimmy said:


> I am no longer reading certain threads at all. I don’t find it entertaining anymore. It just upsets me.
> 
> This is a depressing time for me. I am Asian American and am deeply saddened and disgusted by the increase in micro aggressions and hate crimes against Asian Americans. I am also sickened by the killing of George Floyd. I think that I know exactly what you are saying but it is actually the trial of Derek Chauvin not the trial of George Floyd. Sometimes you get the impression that it is George Floyd who is on trial though.
> 
> I still enjoy reading and participating in the handbag and shopping threads but should probably decide if participation on tPF is something I should continue to do.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful posts and effort to try to present another viewpoint. I really don’t think that other viewpoints are desired, encouraged or respected though.
> 
> I don’t report many posts and I realize that the mods cannot see everything. I don’t feel like reading things that make me feel badly anymore and frankly don’t see the point in reporting more of these posts as obviously most others on this forum don’t feel the way that I do.


There are people who see you and see what's happening. I'm so sorry.


----------



## redney

sdkitty said:


> On a (maybe) lighter note, I get emails daily from people I definitely don't like - and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like either.  I generally delete them w/o reading.  One time when one of them was asking for a donation I responded - "dream on"
> I doubt anyone read my message.  I'd like to know where they get my email address and why they think I would contribute to them.


Do you mark the emails as spam or click the unsubscribe button?


----------



## sdkitty

redney said:


> Do you mark the emails as spam or click the unsubscribe button?


guess I should mark as spam....I think clicking on unsubscribe is like responding?  apparently they have everyone's email.....don lemon said the got these


----------



## limom

Are you also getting texts?
I curse them out.  
And block


----------



## redney

sdkitty said:


> guess I should mark as spam....I think clicking on unsubscribe is like responding?  apparently they have everyone's email.....don lemon said the got these


I don't know, isn't is by law unsolicited emails must have a way to unsubscribe? It's worked for me. I rarely see any unsolicited email in my queue anymore.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Mimmy said:


> I don’t feel like reading things that make me feel badly anymore and frankly don’t see the point in reporting more of these posts as obviously most others on this forum don’t feel the way that I do.



I'm so sorry. I am beginning to think you are right. But I still hold onto hope that tpf doesn't not represent the majority of people everywhere, that there is more good in the world and that change is possible. I can't imagine what the past few years have been like for you but I promise I will always have your back.


----------



## sdkitty

limom said:


> Are you also getting texts?
> I curse them out.
> And block


not much junk texts for me....lots of phone calls on the landline selling stuff and fundraising


----------



## sdkitty

thought this might interest people here








						Thandie Newton Will Now Go By Thandiwe Newton: 'It's Always Been My Name'
					

The "Westworld" star declared she's "taking back what's mine."




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## limom

sdkitty said:


> not much junk texts for me....lots of phone calls on the landline selling stuff and fundraising


I made the mistake to disclose my numbers for convenience. What a mistake!
Between randoms sales pitches while shopping, fundraising and plain old scams. (even hookers)
Marketing run completely rogue.
I follow Thandie on insta. She is so gorgeous. She can go by any names that suits her.


----------



## sdkitty

limom said:


> I made the mistake to disclose my numbers for convenience. What a mistake!
> Between randoms sales pitches while shopping, fundraising and plain old scams. (even hookers)
> Marketing run completely rogue.


on my landline I often get calls from "police" wanting money.  it's always a very masculine white man's voice.  I used to feel uncomfortable turning them down but now I just say no and hang up.


----------



## limom

sdkitty said:


> on my landline I often get calls from "police" wanting money.  it's always a very masculine white man's voice.  I used to feel uncomfortable turning them down but now I just say no and hang up.


Caller ID is the best
I used to say send me a brochure. Now I don’t even bother picking up the phone.


----------



## sdkitty

limom said:


> Caller ID is the best
> I used to say send me a brochure. Now I don’t even bother picking up the phone.


same
most of the time I don't answer that phone


----------



## Mimmy

I am continuing to be aware of designers of color.

No, I am not solely going to purchase something because it is designed by a POC but I would like to be open to trying and buying things from different designers.

Unlike his bags these boots and shoes by Telfar are leather, made in Italy and still available. Higher price point but I really like the shoes.


----------



## sdkitty

I like this story (not the part about the attack but the part about the employees)
What I heard initially was they employees got fired, not suspended but either way, I'm glad the employer is holding them accountable for not helping this Asian woman








						Twice a victim: Elderly Asian woman stomped by crazed man, with building workers suspended for closing door on victim
					

The Brodsky Organization, which runs 360 W. 43rd St., said workers who witnessed the Monday morning attack “have been suspended pending an investigation in conjunction with their union.”




					www.nydailynews.com


----------



## sdkitty

another story that may be of interest here








						Rihanna Was Unrecognizable At An Anti-Asian Hate Rally
					

The “Umbrella” singer was so incognito that when a fellow protester asked to tag her on Instagram, he was surprised by the handle.




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## Mimmy

Delighted to see Amanda Gorman on the cover of Vogue.


----------



## 880

How looking young can shape your career http://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210503-how-looking-young-can-shape-your-career

This article points out having a baby face is generally not great for higher level positions, but there are exceptions 
Quote: 
exceptions. Surprisingly, black men heading companies at the same level are more likely to have baby-faced features. One idea is that this is down to implicit racism, which means that black men are generally seen as threatening, so having a baby face is an advantage because it softens these impressions.


----------



## pukasonqo

Australians like to consider themselves as easy going and not racist but my experience as a POC tells me differently, I am Peruvian and from somme weird intermixing I look like a light skinned Australian Aboriginal which has made for interesting encounters 
On the other hand my partner is 1/2 Latvian and has experienced racism as he was considered a “white wog” , I thought this was a uncommon thing but we have Italian, Swedish and Polish friends who also grew up w the “white wog” tag
Racism against the Asian community is always present, they were referred as the “yellow peril” and we have had some nasty incidents at the start of the pandemic
I like Australia, is safe and still provides a good standard of living (if you take housing affordability out of the equation) but we need, as a nation, to acknowledge that we are a parroquial and racist society if we are to start growing, unfortunately it seems we have a very long and hard road ahead


----------



## limom

What does white wog mean?
Dark white?
I looked up  wog which means POC.


----------



## pukasonqo

limom said:


> What does white wog mean?
> Dark white?
> I looked up  wog which means POC.



Basically a white person of non English background


----------



## limom

pukasonqo said:


> Basically a white person of non English background


Thank you. I recently watched a documentary about rugby players and how the arborigenes  were called names on the field.
Here is a somewhat similar story. 








						Peter V'landys left 'ashamed and disappointed' after meeting with NRL Indigenous leaders
					

Months before sports around the world embraced the Black Lives Matter movement, Indigenous leaders in the NRL sat down with league bosses for a meeting that left Peter V'landys "ashamed and disappointed".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Mimmy

The Target X Christopher John Rogers, ALEXIS & RIXO Collection Is Here — & We Want Everything
					

Update: The Target Designer Dress Collection is available to shop now. This story was originally published on April 29, 2021. We’re one step closer to actually getting our hands on pieces from Target’s collaboration with Christopher John Rogers, ALEXIS, and RIXO. On Thursday, the retailer...




					currently.att.yahoo.com
				



I have posted about Christopher John Rogers before. He designed the inaugural outfit of our US Vice President. Unfortunately one of my posts was removed as being “political”.

He has designed a capsule collection for Target set to be released on May 16th.

My previous most successful Target collaboration purchase was a Phillip Lim dress. I still have it and wear it. It gets many more compliments than dresses I have paid much more for.

Hoping to add one of his designs to my closet. I think one of his colorful dresses will be so fun for summer!


----------



## limom

This dress is super cute. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## limom

Wow!
I guess so


----------



## Mimmy

limom said:


> Wow!
> I guess so


----------



## floatinglili

pukasonqo said:


> Basically a white person of non English background


I’ve never actually heard that expression ‘white wog’ before. Perhaps it’s a regional thing? Aren’t Italians classed as ‘white’?? Mind you I’ve never heard the word ‘wog’ (meaning Italian postwar migrant) used in a nasty way in my social circle either although I have heard Italian Aussie comedy entertainers - children of Italian postwar migrants  (hailing from Sydney Melbourne area? Guessing) call themselves that. It seems such an old fashioned word. 

Also have never been involved in a conversation where I have personally heard people calling aboriginal people nasty names but perhaps that’s because I have aboriginal relatives?? Not sure?? I have never mixed wth the type of people
who would call Aboriginal people nasty names.

As for ‘yellow peril’ wow what an expression. In the Australian context isn’t that associated with historic union-leaning Bulletin newspaper fretting about the geographical location of Australia and the potential impact of ferociously cheap Asian labour from 1800s? Have you honestly ever heard a person discuss Asian Australian people using the words ‘yellow peril’ with a straight face because honestly that again is something I have never once heard. I don’t think I travel in particularly enlightened circles perhaps country people are just not in an environment to hear these sorts of expressions?

Not challenging you, just have never heard  these expressions in the context you have raised before. I don’t come from Sydney or Melbourne and don’t live in an urban area though. But normally the stereotype is that country people are more racist, not
less. Also maybe I’m older? I thought the understanding was that older people were more racist, not less.
Dumb, vulgar and aggressive people everywhere I guess I’m just lucky I don’t have to mix with them much. I don’t get outside of work and home much admittedly.
I feel shocked by your statements, sorry if these experiences have been a regular experience for you in Australia and astonished if these kinds of interactions are in fact mainstream.


----------



## floatinglili

sdkitty said:


> on my landline I often get calls from "police" wanting money.  it's always a very masculine white man's voice.  I used to feel uncomfortable turning them down but now I just say no and hang up.


I used to get regular calls from the Police and Citizens Youth Club (PCYC), very well loved community charity here in the Australian suburbs. I had to tell them not to call me anymore as I could not longer feel confident giving them my credit card details over the phone. Shame!


----------



## pukasonqo

floatinglili said:


> I’ve never actually heard that expression ‘white wog’ before. Perhaps it’s a regional thing? Aren’t Italians classed as ‘white’?? Mind you I’ve never heard the word ‘wog’ (meaning Italian postwar migrant) used in a nasty way in my social circle either although I have heard Italian Aussie comedy entertainers - children of Italian postwar migrants  (hailing from Sydney Melbourne area? Guessing) call themselves that. It seems such an old fashioned word.
> 
> Also have never been involved in a conversation where I have personally heard people calling aboriginal people nasty names but perhaps that’s because I have aboriginal relatives?? Not sure?? I have never mixed wth the type of people
> who would call Aboriginal people nasty names.
> 
> As for ‘yellow peril’ wow what an expression. In the Australian context isn’t that associated with historic union-leaning Bulletin newspaper fretting about the geographical location of Australia and the potential impact of ferociously cheap Asian labour from 1800s? Have you honestly ever heard a person discuss Asian Australian people using the words ‘yellow peril’ with a straight face because honestly that again is something I have never once heard. I don’t think I travel in particularly enlightened circles perhaps country people are just not in an environment to hear these sorts of expressions?
> 
> Not challenging you, just have never heard  these expressions in the context you have raised before. I don’t come from Sydney or Melbourne and don’t live in an urban area though. But normally the stereotype is that country people are more racist, not
> less. Also maybe I’m older? I thought the understanding was that older people were more racist, not less.
> Dumb, vulgar and aggressive people everywhere I guess I’m just lucky I don’t have to mix with them much. I don’t get outside of work and home much admittedly.
> I feel shocked by your statements, sorry if these experiences have been a regular experience for you in Australia and astonished if these kinds of interactions are in fact mainstream.



I don’t see your reply as challenging but I am relating my experience and that of people I know, the fact that you have not experienced it doesn’t mean it did not happen to them or that there. is no racism in Australia 

My partner grew up in Newcastle when it was rough, my friends who were called white wogs had that experience growing up respectly in Melbourne and the Northern Beaches

Some information re: the yellow peril expression





						Making multicultural Australia | multicultural Hot Words: Yellow Peril
					






					www.multiculturalaustralia.edu.au
				




Regarding racism towards Aboriginal people I’ll give you Adam Goodes as an example of many of this incidents in sport

And further information regarding racism in Australia from the Human Rights Commission





						Who experiences racism? | Australian Human Rights Commission
					

Many people experience racist behaviour. The Challenging Racism Project has found that 20 per cent of Australians surveyed had experienced racial discrimination in the form of race hate talk, and about 5 per cent had been attacked because of their race.




					humanrights.gov.au
				




And more sources from the abc





						Most Australians believe there's a lot of racism these days, but experts say recognising discrimination is just the beginning - ABC News
					






					amp.abc.net.au
				




Again we are speaking about personal experiences, you are lucky you didn’t witness or were aware that there are racist behaviours in our society but as the above resources show my experience and that of many others is not isolated and should not be ignored because it “didn’t happen to me/people I know” because that is how we allow these behaviours to continue


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Just got this email from Saks...






						Diversity, Equity & Inclusion at Saks | Saks Fifth Avenue
					

diversity-at-saks




					www.saksfifthavenue.com


----------



## floatinglili

pukasonqo said:


> I don’t see your reply as challenging but I am relating my experience and that of people I know, the fact that you have not experienced it doesn’t mean it did not happen to them or that there. is no racism in Australia
> 
> My partner grew up in Newcastle when it was rough, my friends who were called white wogs had that experience growing up respectly in Melbourne and the Northern Beaches
> 
> Some information re: the yellow peril expression
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Making multicultural Australia | multicultural Hot Words: Yellow Peril
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.multiculturalaustralia.edu.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding racism towards Aboriginal people I’ll give you Adam Goodes as an example of many of this incidents in sport
> 
> And further information regarding racism in Australia from the Human Rights Commission
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who experiences racism? | Australian Human Rights Commission
> 
> 
> Many people experience racist behaviour. The Challenging Racism Project has found that 20 per cent of Australians surveyed had experienced racial discrimination in the form of race hate talk, and about 5 per cent had been attacked because of their race.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> humanrights.gov.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And more sources from the abc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most Australians believe there's a lot of racism these days, but experts say recognising discrimination is just the beginning - ABC News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.abc.net.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again we are speaking about personal experiences, you are lucky you didn’t witness or were aware that there are racist behaviours in our society but as the above resources show my experience and that of many others is not isolated and should not be ignored because it “didn’t happen to me/people I know” because that is how we allow these behaviours to continue


Of course I was aware that other people may experienced these issues. I’m not a dummy or insensitive.
I had never heard of the expression white wog, in any context, and nor had I heard the expression yellow peril used outside an academic setting.
Newcastle does have a reputation of being quite rough, but I have never been there so how would I know iykwim.
all the best to you.


----------



## lalame

I've never heard the term white wog before either. But I didn't realize there were different classes of white people until the last 10 years or so (I'm not white). That was pretty mind blowing to me.


----------



## sdkitty

lalame said:


> I've never heard the term white wog before either. But I didn't realize there were different classes of white people until the last 10 years or so (I'm not white). That was pretty mind blowing to me.


really?  there definitely are different classes of white people in the US - mostly based on money and education....you've never heard the term white trash?


----------



## coldbrewcoffeekate

I made the mistake of stumbling into the Naomi Osaka thread here... it’ll be the next Meghan Markle thread with all the thinly veiled racism.


----------



## lalame

sdkitty said:


> really?  there definitely are different classes of white people in the US - mostly based on money and education....you've never heard the term white trash?



Oh I meant classes as in a racial hierarchy, not the usual usage of "class." Sorry, that was confusing on my part. Like I didn't know that, for example, Poles or Irish people used to be a discriminated against in the US and really didn't have a clue Jewish people still face racism in the US to this day. I grew up in a majority POC environment, school system, etc so I really just didn't know that many white people or had that level of social awareness. It blew my mind that white people could be racist against, well, other white people. It totally makes sense in hindsight, as this happens within every race too.


----------



## sdkitty

lalame said:


> Oh I meant classes as in a racial hierarchy, not the usual usage of "class." Sorry, that was confusing on my part. Like I didn't know that, for example, Poles or Irish people used to be a discriminated against in the US and really didn't have a clue Jewish people still face racism in the US to this day. I grew up in a majority POC environment, school system, etc so I really just didn't know that many white people or had that level of social awareness. It blew my mind that white people could be racist against, well, other white people. It totally makes sense in hindsight, as this happens within every race too.


oh, yes.  it seems whichever group is newly immigrated is looked down upon.  at one time it was the Irish.  before that (I think) the Italians....these days it's immigrants from other parts of the world.  I could go on but I guess it might get near what some would see as political


----------



## lalame

Is anyone else a bit drained of everything being racialized or politicized? Dealing with or seeing racism and political ugliness first hand is bad enough, but there doesn't seem to be an escape anymore. And I think there are a lot of well-meaning people out there who are just rightly pointing out wrongs or bringing awareness, and I don't mean to disparage that but I just feel like it's become way too convenient to make racism and politics a part of every conversation. People can't even talk about completely unrelated topics like celebrities anymore without someone throwing out words like "woke" or making the conversation about race. I get sucked into it myself but I really hate that anyone would have to say "I'm a ___" or "I'm not a ___" to be given credibility in what should be an objective conversation about a topic. It feels like racism and classicism are more in style than ever, if we take it to mean the topics of race and class.


----------



## coldbrewcoffeekate

lalame said:


> Is anyone else a bit drained of everything being racialized or politicized? Dealing with or seeing racism and political ugliness first hand is bad enough, but there doesn't seem to be an escape anymore. And I think there are a lot of well-meaning people out there who are just rightly pointing out wrongs or bringing awareness, and I don't mean to disparage that but I just feel like it's become way too convenient to make racism and politics a part of every conversation. People can't even talk about completely unrelated topics like celebrities anymore without someone throwing out words like "woke" or making the conversation about race. I get sucked into it myself but I really hate that anyone would have to say "I'm a ___" or "I'm not a ___" to be given credibility in what should be an objective conversation about a topic. It feels like racism and classicism are more in style than ever, if we take it to mean the topics of race and class.


Racism isn’t the “topic of the week” for people who live and die by the issues caused by it.


----------



## jelliedfeels

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> Racism isn’t the “topic of the week” for people who live and die by the issues caused by it.


You can say that about anything negative though.
Being murdered by a serial killer would be absolutely horrendous in real life but it doesn’t stop our cultures and media from sensationalising and commercialising both real and fictional serial killers. In my opinion, @lalame is raising a valid point about the vapid way in which we consume painful imagery and experiences by making them into partisan competitions.

edit - wrote for not from


----------



## limom

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> I made the mistake of stumbling into the Naomi Osaka thread here... it’ll be the next Meghan Markle thread with all the thinly veiled racism.


Yes. It is very sad reading that thread.
Time to take a break from this website. It is harsh atm. 
And stressful.
Not a nice vibe, imo.


----------



## limom

jelliedfeels said:


> You can say that about anything negative though.
> Being murdered by a serial killer would be absolutely horrendous in real life but it doesn’t stop our cultures and media for sensationalising and commercialising both real and fictional serial killers. In my opinion, @lalame is raising a valid point about the vapid way in which we consume painful imagery and experiences by making them into partisan competitions.


I agree to a certain extend, however it is uncool to minimize the experience of victims.
The venom against WOC is at an all time high.


----------



## jelliedfeels

limom said:


> I agree to a certain extend, however it is uncool to minimize the experience of victims.
> The venom against WOC is at an all time high.


Are you saying I am minimising the experience of victims? My entire point is that our media commercialises the negative experiences of many different types of victims in a way that arguably completely trivialises the issues. I  think that Lalame it’s a valid point that having to bring your own trauma or identity into an argument to justify it does also minimise your own pain too.

Everywhere you see people are getting finessed into exposing their own vulnerabilities by celebrities trying to make a quick buck. When Prince Harry was lying about not being able to get any help for his depression you could see so many people talking about their own suicide ideation and struggles and reopening these wounds in empathy when many of them do not have access to mental health care and they could actually be making themselves vulnerable in their jobs and personal lives. Even if he wasn’t clearly lying to them,  I can’t help thinking, is this really helping anyone with their trauma or is it just helping a celebrity make another click, comment and sale?

How are you measuring an ‘all time high’?  By the way. 
Do you mean this is the most racist time in history?


----------



## Notorious Pink

lalame said:


> Oh I meant classes as in a racial hierarchy, not the usual usage of "class." Sorry, that was confusing on my part. Like I didn't know that, for example, Poles or Irish people used to be a discriminated against in the US and really didn't have a clue Jewish people still face racism in the US to this day. I grew up in a majority POC environment, school system, etc so I really just didn't know that many white people or had that level of social awareness. It blew my mind that white people could be racist against, well, other white people. It totally makes sense in hindsight, as this happens within every race too.



Yes, there's lots of racism against Jewish people. It's pretty bad, especially lately here in NY, where people are getting threatened and beaten up in public for being visibly Jewish. But there has always been something (I know people who would have change thrown at them when they were younger, or called names, etc. I know my mom dealt with it when she was younger, in the 40s and 50s). When you're older it's often more subtle (you don't get invited to certain things, etc) but there are still comments every so often, and there are clubs out here that won't take Jews as members. Also, and I know this can be very confusing, but genetically Jews aren't white. We are Middle Eastern. Much of the differences come from where our ancestors went after the Diaspora. Although some look white (Ashkenazic Jews, who went to Europe), there are many who are POC. Sephardic (Spanish descent - my dad and husband) and Mizrahi Jews (other areas of the Middle East and North Africa) have a darker complexion, and Igbo/Biafran Jews are Black (we have all of these in my family). There are a number of famous black Jews (Drake, Lani Guinier, Tracee Ellis Ross, Amar'e Stoudemire, Tiffany Haddish, etc). There are also Japanese, Chinese and Indian Jews, although their communities have been smaller.


----------



## eunaddict

Been catching up on this thread and a lot of posters have already spoken my mind.

I don't think there's a quick fix for racism and I do believe people should be held accountable, but I also personally feel that this whole movement to "cancel" people is the wrong approach. My feeling is, that the lesson people like Alexi will take away from all this is XYZ people took my job/career/passion away from me. And this can drive people deeper into whatever problematic view they hold, they don't learn to be better, they learn to hide it better.

Nothing fixes racism like exposure and education, and learning that underneath it all, people are more alike than they are different. Lip service apologies are also useless, remember when our parents used to make us apologize for things when we didn't understand what exactly we'd done wrong (and when we didn't feel like we'd done anything wrong)? The whole "shake hands and make up with your friends" approach? It doesn't work. 

I (as an Asian-Canadian) would honestly rather these scenarios be used as a teachable moment, point out what's wrong and why instead of pushing for a resignation and maybe in Alexi's case a "townhall" styled meeting with Asian Americans would have been a lot more helpful. 

IMHO, the bigger problem to me is that someone at Vogue either didn't vet her well enough OR actually agreed with her views and didn't see them as problematic. Either way, someone much higher up the food chain has some explaining to do.

As an aside, I've always wonder how some people get away with so much whilst this pendulum is swinging.

----
And yes, micro-aggressions suck. I can count the number of times people have been openly racist towards me (including since Covid) on one hand; but I can't keep track of the micro-aggressions - regarding race, culture, nationality, being a woman etc.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

There is no doubt there has been a rise in hate crimes in the US.

This is what happens when people are "othered" and rage is stoked by political rhetoric. Anger is like a drug, it feels good in the moment, it is a very seductive force. And it is very dangerous. 

Lately I've been thinking a lot about this quote "Love and hate are beasts and the one that grows is the one you feed" (Shane Koyczan)

So I am trying not to feed my anger and othering, I am making a conscious effort to put empathy first. Which is sometimes successful and more often a work in progress 

@limom  Harmless celebrity gossip is fun (who slept with who, which couples are breaking up or getting back together, who's feuding etc) but many of the posts in that thread are just really depressing and upsetting.

@lalame I hope this doesn't come across as snarky or judgmental, I am genuinely curious...where did you grow up that you were unaware of antisemitism or discrimination against immigrant groups?


----------



## sdkitty

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> I made the mistake of stumbling into the Naomi Osaka thread here... it’ll be the next Meghan Markle thread with all the thinly veiled racism.


I haven't been there but I don't think that's necessarily true....why?  just because she is is WOC?


----------



## sdkitty

I just want to say all racism is bad but the recent attacks on Asians because people think corona virus came from china is about the stupidest thing I've seen.  Makes No Sense Whatsoever.


----------



## floatinglili

lalame said:


> Is anyone else a bit drained of everything being racialized or politicized? Dealing with or seeing racism and political ugliness first hand is bad enough, but there doesn't seem to be an escape anymore. And I think there are a lot of well-meaning people out there who are just rightly pointing out wrongs or bringing awareness, and I don't mean to disparage that but I just feel like it's become way too convenient to make racism and politics a part of every conversation. People can't even talk about completely unrelated topics like celebrities anymore without someone throwing out words like "woke" or making the conversation about race. I get sucked into it myself but I really hate that anyone would have to say "I'm a ___" or "I'm not a ___" to be given credibility in what should be an objective conversation about a topic. It feels like racism and classicism are more in style than ever, if we take it to mean the topics of race and class.


I can remember to this day the first time my son was classified and public ally singled out by race in a socially public setting. It was in the US, on a holiday there, by a public-service type dance group, sponsored for promoting ‘racial harmony’ with public performance in a public street in Santa Monica.
My son was invited to join the group, among other children, representing the ‘white chocolate’ community. 
Although the performance group obviously meant very well, it was embarrassing and confronting for me, that my child should be reduced to his appearance like that. 
As we were holidaying from overseas, I was struck with the takeaway that race consciousness (basically judging people by appearance in many ways) pervades
American life. I felt sad that my child, a visitor, had been clocked and classified. 
Take from it what you will.


----------



## lalame

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> Racism isn’t the “topic of the week” for people who live and die by the issues caused by it.



I'm trying to say this without having to do what I just said I hate that people feel pressured to do... erm, racism isn't the "topic of the week" for me. But I feel like I have to be a part of someone else's "topic of the week" and daily education on it because they came to some sudden epiphany about it. And that's cool for them, but for people who live it day in and day out it's draining to now have no escape. And "them" = American society (can't speak for anyone else).


----------



## lalame

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> @lalame I hope this doesn't come across as snarky or judgmental, I am genuinely curious...where did you grow up that you were unaware of antisemitism or discrimination against immigrant groups?



Just to be clear, it was specifically discrimination against white groups - unfortunately I was always very aware of discrimination against POC. I grew up in LA but in an enclave where maybe 80%+ of my peers in school were POC. I knew maybe a handful of white kids until I came to high school and then had more exposure to diverse groups of white people. But seeing and knowing are different things, we didn't casually talk about racism those days, so I just wasn't aware about all this until I paid closer attention to the media, news, etc.


----------



## floatinglili

sdkitty said:


> oh, yes.  it seems whichever group is newly immigrated is looked down upon.  at one time it was the Irish.  before that (I think) the Italians....these days it's immigrants from other parts of the world.  I could go on but I guess it might get near what some would see as political


It’s not only about new migrants though is it. It is also about class and power. The British upper classes ‘othered’ the deeply impoverished to the point where they were classed virtually as a different species of people. Remnants of this perspective live on to this day.


----------



## lalame

Notorious Pink said:


> Yes, there's lots of racism against Jewish people. It's pretty bad, especially lately here in NY, where people are getting threatened and beaten up in public for being visibly Jewish. But there has always been something (I know people who would have change thrown at them when they were younger, or called names, etc. I know my mom dealt with it when she was younger, in the 40s and 50s). When you're older it's often more subtle (you don't get invited to certain things, etc) but there are still comments every so often, and there are clubs out here that won't take Jews as members. Also, and I know this can be very confusing, but genetically Jews aren't white. We are Middle Eastern. Much of the differences come from where our ancestors went after the Diaspora. Although some look white (Ashkenazic Jews, who went to Europe), there are many who are POC. Sephardic (Spanish descent - my dad and husband) and Mizrahi Jews (other areas of the Middle East and North Africa) have a darker complexion, and Igbo/Biafran Jews are Black (we have all of these in my family). There are a number of famous black Jews (Drake, Lani Guinier, Tracee Ellis Ross, Amar'e Stoudemire, Tiffany Haddish, etc). There are also Japanese, Chinese and Indian Jews, although their communities have been smaller.



Thank you for explaining this in a non-condescending way. I'm still learning some of these things today, after I found myself marrying a NY-born and bred Jew. It sounds so clueless but honestly... this stuff is just not obvious to people who came from a completely different background. In hindsight I think the vast majority of "white" (looking) people I came to meet in high school were Jewish, which gave me the impression they were so prevalent that they wouldn't be discriminated against. The dominant group usually doesn't get discriminated against right? Well, clueless is the right word for it.


----------



## coldbrewcoffeekate

sdkitty said:


> I haven't been there but I don't think that's necessarily true....why?  just because she is is WOC?


If you haven’t read it why would you assume it isn’t true?

Comments about how she just wanted attention for social justice, the comparisons to Meghan Markle (which is how the Naomi thread actually started), the fact that every comparison is against a white athlete or celebrity who is handling it so much better than she is, “this sounds like a case for Oprah,” how she’s so entitled, that Piers Morgan is right about his statements about her and Meghan, I could go on and on about the micro aggressions in there…

The whole thing also just bugs me because I don’t understand why people can’t err on the side of being kind. You wouldn’t challenge someone who says they have cancer, why challenge someone because they have mental health needs?


----------



## lalame

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> The whole thing also just bugs me because I don’t understand why people can’t err on the side of being kind. You wouldn’t challenge someone who says they have cancer, why challenge someone because they have mental health needs?



I didn't see the microaggressions you saw in that particular thread (and I really hope I wasn't an offender) but I will say... I have been astonished by how determined people are to disparage and blame celebrities across the threads. There really is no erring to a neutral position.


----------



## mesvalises

Great article. It seems that the BLM movement has at least temporarily awakened racial sensitivity in the fashion biz. I am skeptical about whether this will last.


----------



## jelliedfeels

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> If you haven’t read it why would you assume it isn’t true?
> 
> Comments about how she just wanted attention for social justice, the comparisons to Meghan Markle (which is how the Naomi thread actually started), the fact that every comparison is against a white athlete or celebrity who is handling it so much better than she is, “this sounds like a case for Oprah,” how she’s so entitled, that Piers Morgan is right about his statements about her and Meghan, I could go on and on about the micro aggressions in there…
> 
> The whole thing also just bugs me because I don’t understand why people can’t err on the side of being kind. You wouldn’t challenge someone who says they have cancer, why challenge someone because they have mental health needs?


Isn’t there the teeniest little shred of irony in you wondering why people can’t err on the side of kindness and benefit of the doubt when you are very happy to call whole groups of people racist because you personally interpret their comments about some celebrities as having a negative racial bias?

I mean especially given you probably know far less information about each of them than we learn about public figures?


----------



## Notorious Pink

lalame said:


> Thank you for explaining this in a non-condescending way. I'm still learning some of these things today, after I found myself marrying a NY-born and bred Jew. It sounds so clueless but honestly... this stuff is just not obvious to people who came from a completely different background. In hindsight I think the vast majority of "white" (looking) people I came to meet in high school were Jewish, which gave me the impression they were so prevalent that they wouldn't be discriminated against. The dominant group usually doesn't get discriminated against right? Well, clueless is the right word for it.



Of course. I know many areas of the country have tiny or non-existent Jewish populations...my older son made a bunch of friends gaming online who live in very rural areas, and it was "do you have horns" which I really think (hope?) at this point is a poor joke more than anything, but if you don't grow up around any particular group of people you just don't know. Many American Jews do pass as white (although my husband has been mistaken for everything from Italian/Greek to Indian...our running joke is whatever country we travel to, someone always asks _him_ for directions!), but often that ends as soon as you hear the last (or even first) name. Jews are present but not a dominant group anywhere, because they tend to live in highly populated areas - so while there be proportionally a lot in an area - Brooklyn? Long Island? - they're still a relatively small part of that population. The only exception I can think of is Kiryas Joel.


----------



## Megs

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> If you haven’t read it why would you assume it isn’t true?
> 
> Comments about how she just wanted attention for social justice, the comparisons to Meghan Markle (which is how the Naomi thread actually started), the fact that every comparison is against a white athlete or celebrity who is handling it so much better than she is, “this sounds like a case for Oprah,” how she’s so entitled, that Piers Morgan is right about his statements about her and Meghan, I could go on and on about the micro aggressions in there…
> 
> The whole thing also just bugs me because I don’t understand why people can’t err on the side of being kind. You wouldn’t challenge someone who says they have cancer, why challenge someone because they have mental health needs?



I removed some comments from that thread. We don't want people bringing up other threads in others (funny way to word this, but you know what I mean!) but I also don't want threads to completely slide into a tear down or bringing up other threads in different threads. 

Please do report specific content when you see if and question if it's problematic, so I can take a look at it and handle it. 

As far as Naomi goes, what I said in the other thread and will say here, no one knows what it is like (unless any of you are professional athletes and that could be the case!) to be under that type of scrutiny, pressure, and need to perform. Someone putting their mental health first should be applauded. We shouldn't have to all struggle through life just to say we did it, sometimes we need to put ourself first. That is a great thing if you ask me, more people should do that and we should all accept it!


----------



## jelliedfeels

Megs said:


> I removed some comments from that thread. We don't want people bringing up other threads in others (funny way to word this, but you know what I mean!) but I also don't want threads to completely slide into a tear down or bringing up other threads in different threads.
> 
> Please do report specific content when you see if and question if it's problematic, so I can take a look at it and handle it.
> 
> As far as Naomi goes, what I said in the other thread and will say here, no one knows what it is like (unless any of you are professional athletes and that could be the case!) to be under that type of scrutiny, pressure, and need to perform. Someone putting their mental health first should be applauded. We shouldn't have to all struggle through life just to say we did it, sometimes we need to put ourself first. That is a great thing if you ask me, more people should do that and we should all accept it!


Alright, well by that logic why is it acceptable that this thread is ostensibly meant to be about issues of racism and classicism in the fashion industry but it is being used by some to criticise other threads and label other posters as racists? Shouldn’t we be removing those kinds of posts as well?


----------



## Megs

jelliedfeels said:


> Alright, well by that logic why is it acceptable that this thread is ostensibly meant to be about issues of racism and classicism in the fashion industry but it is being used by some to criticise other threads and label other posters as racists? Shouldn’t we be removing those kinds of posts as well?



In theory, yes, this thread would need a lot of posts deleted and really the thread would be closed. Sometimes, we've had threads pop up that start as one thing but there is a much larger issue being addressed that we allow to take place. I know a lot of posters wanted to share that they thought there were posts/threads/situations happening on the forum that should be handled differently. We could always have a fresh thread, but this thread somewhat became the place for that conversation, and I didn't want to stop it.


----------



## Clearblueskies

Megs said:


> In theory, yes, this thread would need a lot of posts deleted and really the thread would be closed. Sometimes, we've had threads pop up that start as one thing but there is a much larger issue being addressed that we allow to take place. I know a lot of posters wanted to share that they thought there were posts/threads/situations happening on the forum that should be handled differently. We could always have a fresh thread, but this thread somewhat became the place for that conversation, and I didn't want to stop it.


That means forum rules are applied in some threads but not others   I find it very disturbing that posters have found it necessary to divulge personal information and/or experience to justify voicing opinions others have jumped on here.


----------



## lalame

I didn't really understand what this thread was for initially tbh but I've found it really interesting so far. I took it as being about racism/classism in fashion and celebrity culture (including how we talk about it). It's kind of nice to have a space to talk about it as its own topic, rather than it coming up as an accusation or off-topic comment in another thread.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Clearblueskies said:


> That means forum rules are applied in some threads but not others   I find it very disturbing that posters have found it necessary to divulge personal information and/or experience to justify voicing opinions others have jumped on here.



I think certain posters have shared their personal experience, I hope voluntarily to explain their perspective which I love so we can all learn from each other, but I’m not sure where you are getting the idea that this is mandatory?

If you mean me asking @lalame where she grew up I apologize if that seemed intrusive, and am very sorry to you lalame if you felt at all uncomfortable


----------



## jelliedfeels

Megs said:


> In theory, yes, this thread would need a lot of posts deleted and really the thread would be closed. Sometimes, we've had threads pop up that start as one thing but there is a much larger issue being addressed that we allow to take place. I know a lot of posters wanted to share that they thought there were posts/threads/situations happening on the forum that should be handled differently. We could always have a fresh thread, but this thread somewhat became the place for that conversation, and I didn't want to stop it.


I appreciate that there’s a lot of conversation that organically drifts in and out of topic and that there are cases when posters want to talk about their personal lives and experiences with each other too but I personally feel that blanket-labelling threads and people on it as racist is very different from the concerns you are discussing being raised.


----------



## lalame

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I think certain posters have shared their personal experience, I hope voluntarily to explain their perspective which I love so we can all learn from each other, but I’m not sure where you are getting the idea that this is mandatory?
> 
> If you mean me asking @lalame where she grew up I apologize if that seemed intrusive, and am very sorry to you lalame if you felt at all uncomfortable



I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.  

But I think that poster was actually referring to the same thing I mentioned earlier - sometimes it feels like you need to bring your own race or political affiliation up to be given the benefit of the doubt in a conversation or avoid a casual accusation of racism/bias/etc. Not only does it feel like only X type of people are allowed to have an opinion, but even that X people's opinions are not valid if it doesn't conform to expectations. And who is the one having the expectations? It's counterproductive and it racializes/politicizes any topic. No one should have to guess or know my race to have a productive conversation with me.


----------



## Clearblueskies

lalame said:


> I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.
> 
> But I think that poster was actually referring to the same thing I mentioned earlier - sometimes it feels like you need to bring your own race or political affiliation up to be given the benefit of the doubt in a conversation or avoid a casual accusation of racism/bias/etc. Not only does it feel like only X type of people are allowed to have an opinion, but even that X people's opinions are not valid if it doesn't conform to expectations. And who is the one having the expectations? It's counterproductive and it racializes/politicizes any topic. No one should have to guess or know my race to have a productive conversation with me.


Exactly this.


----------



## coldbrewcoffeekate

jelliedfeels said:


> Isn’t there the teeniest little shred of irony in you wondering why people can’t err on the side of kindness and benefit of the doubt when you are very happy to call whole groups of people racist because you personally interpret their comments about some celebrities as having a negative racial bias?
> 
> I mean especially given you probably know far less information about each of them than we learn about public figures?



If you could please quote where I called any person or groups of people racist, I would appreciate it!


----------



## jelliedfeels

lalame said:


> I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.
> 
> But I think that poster was actually referring to the same thing I mentioned earlier - sometimes it feels like you need to bring your own race or political affiliation up to be given the benefit of the doubt in a conversation or avoid a casual accusation of racism/bias/etc. Not only does it feel like only X type of people are allowed to have an opinion, but even that X people's opinions are not valid if it doesn't conform to expectations. And who is the one having the expectations? It's counterproductive and it racializes/politicizes any topic. No one should have to guess or know my race to have a productive conversation with me.


I’ve agreed with you earlier on this and I find it a bit patronising and demeaning of our own experiences. 

It’s also got a whiff of the no true Scotsman fallacy about it all i.e.
‘No person of colour could disapprove of Meghan Markle (let’s say) so all the people who profess to dislike her and to be POC on the thread can’t really be POC’


----------



## Clearblueskies

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> If you could please quote where I called any person or groups of people racist, I would appreciate it!


”thinly veiled racism“ was how you put it, in your thinly veiled blanket accusations of racism.


----------



## coldbrewcoffeekate

Clearblueskies said:


> ”thinly veiled racism“ was how you put it, in your thinly veiled blanket accusations of racism.


Yes, as in the tone of the thread, not any one individual nor the entirety of the individuals posting in it. 

Regardless, I read that Megs said above that this isn’t the best venue for discussing other threads and I’d like to follow her wishes, so I’ll leave it at that.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

lalame said:


> I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.
> 
> But I think that poster was actually referring to the same thing I mentioned earlier - sometimes it feels like you need to bring your own race or political affiliation up to be given the benefit of the doubt in a conversation or avoid a casual accusation of racism/bias/etc. Not only does it feel like only X type of people are allowed to have an opinion, but even that X people's opinions are not valid if it doesn't conform to expectations. And who is the one having the expectations? It's counterproductive and it racializes/politicizes any topic. No one should have to guess or know my race to have a productive conversation with me.





jelliedfeels said:


> I’ve agreed with you earlier on this and I find it a bit patronising and demeaning of our own experiences.
> 
> It’s also got a whiff of the no true Scotsman fallacy about it all i.e.
> ‘No person of colour could disapprove of Meghan Markle (let’s say) so all the people who profess to dislike her and to be POC on the thread can’t really be POC’



I haven’t read any comments like that. What I have seen, and probably expressed myself, if that I believe if a POC describes a microagression or an offensive experience or someone Jewish believes a comment was antisemitic that people outside of that group really don’t have the right to criticize, doubt or judge their reactions. In those situations I think it’s far more effective to explain the intention or better yet apologize and try to understand so as to not repeat the hurtful behavior.


----------



## floatinglili

An aspect of these types of conversations that I find interesting is the tendency for  whole countries or even continents to be labelled as racist. 
‘Australia is racist’; ‘America is racist’ etc.
This from people who have an activist perspective fighting against broad brush labelling of ethnic or cultural groups!
The blind spot is striking, that ‘Calling out’ the evil involves the labelling of entire (presume majority) cultures, people’s, government policy as a whole. 
Isn’t this counter productive and dare I say demonstrably hypocritical as an approach? 
One could for example say that the Chinese government reflects a racist Chinese perspective by refusing citizenship to non-ethnic Chinese, but to simply state ‘China is racist’ seems clumsy, unfair to the millions of individuals caught up by that label ‘Chinese’ and, well, quite rude/ casually racist itself, in its broad brush. 
But this way of speaking is very common, and for the most part accepted. I’m not sure why? 
Surely in any large population or culture there are elements of fellow feeling, some bright spots or exceptions to blanket horror. My sense is that in discussing constructively, we should try to be sensitive and aware of our own blind spots, even while on high horses.


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## lalame

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I haven’t read any comments like that. What I have seen, and probably expressed myself, if that I believe *if a POC describes a microagression or an offensive experience or someone Jewish believes a comment was antisemitic that people outside of that group really don’t have the right to criticize, doubt or judge their reactions.* In those situations I think it’s far more effective to explain the intention or better yet apologize and try to understand so as to not repeat the hurtful behavior.



I think the tricky thing about this statement is it inherently requires a POC to say "I'm a POC and this offends me" and, should another POC share a different interpretation of the offending comment/situation, that person would then have to say "I'm a POC too and I saw it differently ..." otherwise their opinion doesn't seem valid. And that's what gets very uncomfortable.

I can totally understand the tendency - few would want to hear my perspective on a Jewish person's struggles, including myself - but I wish there was a more nuanced and understanding environment when discussing such complicated issues. What is it? I don't know. I try to assume the best intentions of everyone, posters and celebrities. I'm sure I'm not being as anti-racist as I should be but I think we get dangerously close to dismissing POC perspectives, alienating non-Americans, and making unrelated conversations toxic with some of the expectations I see.


----------



## floatinglili

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I haven’t read any comments like that. What I have seen, and probably expressed myself, if that I believe if a POC describes a microagression or an offensive experience or someone Jewish believes a comment was antisemitic that people outside of that group really don’t have the right to criticize, doubt or judge their reactions. In those situations I think it’s far more effective to explain the intention or better yet apologize and try to understand so as to not repeat the hurtful behavior.


Interesting comment. Certainly no-one should be deliberately hurting another’s feelings, so yes a conversation must be held and people must be made to understand that perspectives or comments are not well received. 
At the end of the day intent does play a part in how offensive a comment is though. Context really is everything in conversation. 
Which is why young girls using the B word amongst girlfriends is not the same as the B word exchanged amongst strangers. Fellow feeling and a sense of connection can take things a long way in terms of reducing hurt and outrage. If a relationship is strained from the get go it doesn’t take much to set it off. That’s a reality of human relationships. 
A classic example interesting example to me would be the trigger issue of the young white music fan singing along to her black music star on Spotify or at a concert, and forgetting to skip certain words she is allowed to hear but unqualified to speak.
I really long for a healthy and healed global community, I think we are getting there and all of this is part of the process but I do look forward to a time when less policing and gate keeping, more goodwill is a feature of our public conversation.


----------



## jelliedfeels

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> Yes, as in the tone of the thread, not any one individual nor the entirety of the individuals posting in it.
> 
> Regardless, I read that Megs said above that this isn’t the best venue for discussing other threads and I’d like to follow her wishes, so I’ll leave it at that.





coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> I made the mistake of stumbling into the Naomi Osaka thread here... it’ll be the next Meghan Markle thread with all the thinly veiled racism.





coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> (which is how the Naomi thread actually started), the fact that every comparison is against a white athlete or celebrity who is handling it so much better than she is, “this sounds like a case for Oprah,” how she’s so entitled, that Piers Morgan is right about his statements about her and Meghan, I could go on and on about the micro aggressions in there…



That’s alright. We’re not discussing the other threads so we can tie this up now. You asked me about your posts....
So, clearblueskies already brought this up but claiming you think tone of the thread is racist but that you aren’t calling the posters within it is pretty wafer-thin semantics in all honesty. You are clearly claiming there is some tie between the threads, the subject and its posters and racism and I just utterly disagree.
 Then you several posts you call microaggressions which means that they have an indirect racist connotation beneath their surface meaning so again you are clearly proffering the view that these opinions are actually stemming from racial bias. To me that’s not a fair interpretation of the comments either.  Anyway, thats that. 
 I guess I’m just trying to show a little kindness and give the benefit of the doubt to a wide group of people I talk to causally on the internet before jumping to making judgements on their morals and character.


----------



## coldbrewcoffeekate

jelliedfeels said:


> That’s alright. We’re not discussing the other threads so we can tie this up now. You asked me about your posts....
> So, clearblueskies already brought this up but claiming you think tone of the thread is racist but that you aren’t calling the posters within it is pretty wafer-thin semantics in all honesty. You are clearly claiming there is some tie between the threads, the subject and its posters and racism and I just utterly disagree.
> Then you several posts you call microaggressions which means that they have an indirect racist connotation beneath their surface meaning so again you are clearly proffering the view that these opinions are actually stemming from racial bias. To me that’s not a fair interpretation of the comments either.  Anyway, thats that.
> I guess I’m just trying to show a little kindness and give the benefit of the doubt to a wide group of people I talk to causally on the internet before jumping to making judgements on their morals and character.



K. You seem to have no problem thoroughly and specifically attacking me, so if you’d like to make this thread about one person, you can PM me instead.


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## jelliedfeels

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> K. You seem to have no problem thoroughly and specifically attacking me, so if you’d like to make this thread about one person, you can PM me instead.


PM you what? What’s left to say? God forbid I attack you again by pointing out what you just said.


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## coldbrewcoffeekate

Have a great evening @jelliedfeels.


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## Swanky

Hey!  
We have a VERY handy feature called "Ignore", it makes lots of members experiences here much better; just hover of the members name you wish to ignore and click IGNORE 

Please be kind, and respectful in all posts


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## OriginalBalenciaga

lalame said:


> I think the tricky thing about this statement is it inherently requires a POC to say "I'm a POC and this offends me" and, should another POC share a different interpretation of the offending comment/situation, that person would then have to say "I'm a POC too and I saw it differently ..." otherwise their opinion doesn't seem valid. And that's what gets very uncomfortable.
> 
> I can totally understand the tendency - few would want to hear my perspective on a Jewish person's struggles, including myself - but I wish there was a more nuanced and understanding environment when discussing such complicated issues. What is it? I don't know. I try to assume the best intentions of everyone, posters and celebrities. I'm sure I'm not being as anti-racist as I should be but I think we get dangerously close to dismissing POC perspectives, alienating non-Americans, and making unrelated conversations toxic with some of the expectations I see.



I understand what you're saying and agree that is complicated. I guess where I'm coming from is if anyone feels hurt or offended to me that's enough ... it almost doesn't matter if someone else from the same group would be okay with it (because I wouldn't expect everyone to agree all the time just because they have some similarities)  ... I would want to know so I could be more aware and careful in any case. I hope that makes sense.


----------



## lalame

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I understand what you're saying and agree that is complicated. I guess where I'm coming from is if anyone feels hurt or offended to me that's enough ... it almost doesn't matter if someone else from the same group would be okay with it (because I wouldn't expect everyone to agree all the time just because they have some similarities)  ... I would want to know so I could be more aware and careful in any case. I hope that makes sense.



I think that's a good principle in general, no matter what race or other background. It matters to me if something I said offends anyone, and their race/political affiliation is not really a requirement, qualification, or explanation in itself why they're offended. After all you are not a POC but are vocal when you see something you don't like - and that is fine, it should be taken seriously (obviously doesn't mean other people can't explain themselves).


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

lalame said:


> I think that's a good principle in general, no matter what race or other background. It matters to me if something I said offends anyone, and their race/political affiliation is not really a requirement, qualification, or explanation in itself why they're offended. After all you are not a POC but are vocal when you see something you don't like - and that is fine, it should be taken seriously (obviously doesn't mean other people can't explain themselves).



I agree of course. I think the issue arises when people express themselves, are brave enough to share their vulnerability, and their experience is discounted or questioned. I'm not sure if people realize that gaslighting in that way is really hurtful.


----------



## lalame

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I agree of course. I think the issue arises when people express themselves, are brave enough to share their vulnerability, and their experience is discounted or questioned. I'm not sure if people realize that gaslighting in that way is really hurtful.



Being gaslit is hurtful, but honestly this is another buzz word that I'm scared is becoming so trendy and casually used that the meaning may be lost soon. I'm not saying this is what you're referring to but I see this situation often where one person accuses another person of being racist, for example, and that 2nd person says "I didn't mean it that way... here's what I was trying to say," which I don't consider to be gaslighting. That's the way to mutual understanding. I've completely misunderstood something I've read many times and I've also said things poorly many times before, which may have come across totally differently than I meant it. I feel like we've lost the art of compromise and any appetite for hearing or giving an apology in favor of mic drop-style accusations and then you leave in a huff. It's almost the mirror effect of what I assume you're actually talking about, where someone voices a concern and the other person is so unwilling to listen and so defensive they end up attacking the person being offended. I see these 2 things happening so often on TPF. 

That's just not the multicultural utopia I'm hoping to see at the end of this journey to inclusivity.


----------



## Shopaholic2021

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> Comments about how she just wanted attention for social justice, the comparisons to Meghan Markle (which is how the Naomi thread actually started), the fact that every comparison is against a white athlete or celebrity who is handling it so much better than she is, “this sounds like a case for Oprah,” how she’s so entitled, that Piers Morgan is right about his statements about her and Meghan, I could go on and on about the micro aggressions in there…
> 
> The whole thing also just bugs me because I don’t understand why people can’t err on the side of being kind. You wouldn’t challenge someone who says they have cancer, why challenge someone because they have mental health needs?



I haven't seen any posts that have complained about her social justice advocation. The comparison with MM was not good. There was no comparison of her to a white athlete who is handling things better than her (Serena & Venus are both black). Some people did mention some athletes who may be black (I don't know the athletes) but why would those comparisons be unfair? Are you saying because she is POC that she should be given more sympathy or have more allowances made? Or that it is simply a racist thing to say? Her being entitled has nothing to do with race, all races have entitled brats (my whole family is colored and we have some entitled brats). 

I actually went on to the thread because I was sympathetic towards her, because she does appear like someone who struggles with anxiety as can be seen from previous matches. However when her sister posted about why she really pulled out, I felt like she lied and tried to stretch the truth. That doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for her, it just means I see her in a different light. Just because she is a woman and POC doesn't mean I have to support her unquestionably. I am a woman of color too, and I would expect everyone to support woman and POC because they are marganized so much in society. But I am not going to support someone I feel is misrepresenting themselves or has done something which I feel is wrong. That doesn't mean I am tearing her down, it just means I don't agree with her decision.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

lalame said:


> Being gaslit is hurtful, but honestly this is another buzz word that I'm scared is becoming so trendy and casually used that the meaning may be lost soon. I'm not saying this is what you're referring to but I see this situation often where one person accuses another person of being racist, for example, and that 2nd person says "I didn't mean it that way... here's what I was trying to say," which I don't consider to be gaslighting. That's the way to mutual understanding. I've completely misunderstood something I've read many times and I've also said things poorly many times before, which may have come across totally differently than I meant it. I feel like we've lost the art of compromise and any appetite for hearing or giving an apology in favor of mic drop-style accusations and then you leave in a huff. It's almost the mirror effect of what I assume you're actually talking about, where someone voices a concern and the other person is so unwilling to listen and so defensive they end up attacking the person being offended. I see these 2 things happening so often on TPF.
> 
> That's just not the multicultural utopia I'm hoping to see at the end of this journey to inclusivity.



Yes I wouldn't consider that example gaslighting either.

I've been called racist and I got really angry and upset. It's an awful feeling. And not one I'll ever forget. But I also try to remember that actual racism is worse...and more dangerous...and enduring...than my moment of discomfort. 

I love your idea of a multicultural utopia, I'm just not sure where we are on the journey.


----------



## Shopaholic2021

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I've been called racist and I got really angry and upset. It's an awful feeling. And not one I'll ever forget. But I also try to remember that actual racism is worse...and more dangerous...and enduring...than my moment of discomfort.
> 
> I love your idea of a multicultural utopia, I'm just not sure where we are on the journey.



I like that thought, I will remember to think that if I ever get called a racist. Its true, being called a racist is nothing compared to actually suffering from it. 

I thought America was a multicultural utopia when I moved here because of so many cultures because I have so many friends in interracial marriages. Alas the last few years have proved there is more beneath the surface.


----------



## lalame

This is my whole fear with the hyper visibility on social awareness. Don't get me wrong, social awareness is great. But I'm really scared it's becoming commodified and over-simplified so it rolls off the tongue easily... that it will just be a fad. Social awareness shouldn't be treated like some ultra restrictive diet that you can't maintain long-term because it's not natural or internalized. And it doesn't seem natural to me the way people so casually racialize topics - it even sells t-shirts and water bottles now!

Does any POC here remember when your culture was in and then OUT of "style?" I remember seeing a headline once that was like "Korean food is the new Thai food [in the US]." Like... Thai food is out of style. A dang culture's entire cuisine is out of style??? Those are the ugly, misguided moments I think of on this journey. Maybe I'm being too jaded but mainstream culture has a track record of picking you up and dropping you hard when you're not longer interesting.


----------



## jelliedfeels

lalame said:


> This is my whole fear with the hyper visibility on social awareness. Don't get me wrong, social awareness is great. But I'm really scared it's becoming commodified and over-simplified so it rolls off the tongue easily... that it will just be a fad. Social awareness shouldn't be treated like some ultra restrictive diet that you can't maintain long-term because it's not natural or internalized. And it doesn't seem natural to me the way people so casually racialize topics - it even sells t-shirts and water bottles now!
> 
> Does any POC here remember when your culture was in and then OUT of "style?" I remember seeing a headline once that was like "Korean food is the new Thai food [in the US]." Like... Thai food is out of style. A dang culture's entire cuisine is out of style??? Those are the ugly, misguided moments I think of on this journey. Maybe I'm being too jaded but mainstream culture has a track record of picking you up and dropping you hard when you're not longer interesting.


This is actually really interesting and sad when you think about it with fashion trends too. It has definitely made for tulip crashes in some small businesses when they find they no longer have the mass appeal they had months before. 

With fashion specifically there’s also the intercept of cultural appropriation. I think a lot of people outside a group are much less ready to go into a culturally specific clothes shop nowadays and buy things than they were in say, the 90s, when lots of non-Indian people were buying sari tops, bindis and bangles from Indian-run shops.
It’s a thorny issue because I can see why some people would be offended when they see others wearing culturally loaded or religious things like bindis and sometimes it can put the shopkeeper in an awkward position. 

On the other hand, because there’s only a number of ways to design a nose ring, say, you see big companies flogging masses of their deculturalised but still recognisable versions and I personally wonder if the small businesses are just losing out to the likes of Zara again because the chain stores can afford to chop and change their inventories.


----------



## floatinglili

This just came across my Instagram feed today. I did a double take because I wondered whether stereotypically ‘pretty blonde’ women would feel comfortable wearing aboriginal designs publicly in the current climate, even if invited to by members of that ethnic / cultural group.
I personally think this creative approach of sharing is very helpful for community building and growth.








						Designer Dresses|Silk Scarves|Aboriginal Design|Aboriginal Clothing
					

Welcome to Ngali. We share the stories of our country through our silk dress, Aboriginal clothing,silk scarves, designer scarf, silk tops, Indigenous clothing. Our products are born from our connection to a talented group of emerging indigenous artists who showcase their talents through painting...




					ngali.com.au


----------



## jelliedfeels

floatinglili said:


> This just came across my Instagram feed today. I did a double take because I wondered whether stereotypically ‘pretty blonde’ women would feel comfortable wearing aboriginal designs publicly in the current climate, even if invited to by members of that ethnic / cultural group.
> I personally think this creative approach of sharing is very helpful for community building and growth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Designer Dresses|Silk Scarves|Aboriginal Design|Aboriginal Clothing
> 
> 
> Welcome to Ngali. We share the stories of our country through our silk dress, Aboriginal clothing,silk scarves, designer scarf, silk tops, Indigenous clothing. Our products are born from our connection to a talented group of emerging indigenous artists who showcase their talents through painting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ngali.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5100656
> View attachment 5100657


This is the problem I have with some of this cultural appropriation discourse.
If you are from a numerically small minority of people and  if there’s poverty in your community your business really needs to sell to those outside of your ethnic group to flourish.

Then you get kicked again because the white or other consumer you are marketing to doesn’t want get heat for wearing something from a culture they aren’t part of so they are wary to buy. Then if you are really unlucky H&M comes out with something similar looking in style but stripped of all cultural significance and controversy and for a third of the price.
I feel like we have more awareness of these issues with the food and dining industry but it just seems to reach a bit of an impasse in fashion.

add on- some of these clothes are beautiful. They are really interesting prints.


----------



## Notorious Pink

floatinglili said:


> Interesting comment. Certainly no-one should be deliberately hurting another’s feelings



I’ve seen this happen here.



floatinglili said:


> At the end of the day intent does play a part in how offensive a comment is though. Context really is everything in conversation.


----------



## Jktgal

floatinglili said:


> This just came across my Instagram feed today. I did a double take because I wondered whether stereotypically ‘pretty blonde’ women would feel comfortable wearing aboriginal designs publicly in the current climate, even if invited to by members of that ethnic / cultural group.
> I personally think this creative approach of sharing is very helpful for community building and growth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Designer Dresses|Silk Scarves|Aboriginal Design|Aboriginal Clothing
> 
> 
> Welcome to Ngali. We share the stories of our country through our silk dress, Aboriginal clothing,silk scarves, designer scarf, silk tops, Indigenous clothing. Our products are born from our connection to a talented group of emerging indigenous artists who showcase their talents through painting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ngali.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5100656
> View attachment 5100657


I've seen many caucasian-looking and asian-looking people in Australia wear aborigin designs. They could be of mixed aborigin descent. My sense is no one cares, not like in USA. But then I only live in Oz part time.

Hawaii was pretty multicultural. Looking at the stats, USA will be, soon. White Americans will be the minority - politically and ethnographically.

Interesting thread. (Yawn).


----------



## leechiyong

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I understand what you're saying and agree that is complicated. I guess where I'm coming from is if anyone feels hurt or offended to me that's enough ... it almost doesn't matter if someone else from the same group would be okay with it (because I wouldn't expect everyone to agree all the time just because they have some similarities)  ... I would want to know so I could be more aware and careful in any case. I hope that makes sense.


While I agree with this in premise, it needs to be applied at the individual level, not perpetuating stereotypes that something bothers everyone of the entire race and should be applied in treatment of them.  For example, before things shut down and when the majority of known COVID-19 cases were in China, I went out to eat and noticed quite a few people watching me eat with a very concerned look on their face.  There’s a high likelihood one or more of them was worried I might have COVID (I’m Asian in the US). 

For some, this experience would be deeply bothersome, but what bothered me more was those later who made a deliberate effort to demonstrate they weren’t one of those people, encroaching on me, standing closer to me than they did others, and being overly friendly.  The intent was good, but it did nothing to negate the otherness it made me feel, made me feel like my personal space was being invaded, and was quite reckless given the pandemic. 

In the end, no one can assume to know what another wants and no one can know what may or may not be intended as offensive.  All I can try to do is get to know people on an individual level and think people have positive intentions until proven otherwise.  Maybe they just liked my purse that day and I’d never want  someone to not look at my purse because they were worried I might think they thought I might get them sick.


----------



## V0N1B2

floatinglili said:


> This just came across my Instagram feed today. I did a double take because I wondered whether stereotypically ‘pretty blonde’ women would feel comfortable wearing aboriginal designs publicly in the current climate, even if invited to by members of that ethnic / cultural group.
> I personally think this creative approach of sharing is very helpful for community building and growth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Designer Dresses|Silk Scarves|Aboriginal Design|Aboriginal Clothing
> 
> 
> Welcome to Ngali. We share the stories of our country through our silk dress, Aboriginal clothing,silk scarves, designer scarf, silk tops, Indigenous clothing. Our products are born from our connection to a talented group of emerging indigenous artists who showcase their talents through painting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ngali.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5100656
> View attachment 5100657


I just see a blue dress.


----------



## Megs

Clearblueskies said:


> That means forum rules are applied in some threads but not others   I find it very disturbing that posters have found it necessary to divulge personal information and/or experience to justify voicing opinions others have jumped on here.



It's hard to be super stringent on applying the notion of threads need to stay on topic when there is a natural discussion that strays but is part of the bigger conversation. I really don't like shutting down conversation. Sometimes I'll ask something to remain on topic, sometimes I'll remove a couple super off topic posts, but typically I like to see conversation flowing. 

This thread has become a really lively discussion and many people have voiced that they would like to be heard about issues on the forum itself. I have always welcomed that. Sometimes people want to reach out privately, and other times they feel better doing it publicly with others. It is just the direction this thread has taken, and so ya, in this case I've let more conversation flow. There's no perfect way to moderate, but I am always trying! 



jelliedfeels said:


> I appreciate that there’s a lot of conversation that organically drifts in and out of topic and that there are cases when posters want to talk about their personal lives and experiences with each other too but I personally feel that blanket-labelling threads and people on it as racist is very different from the concerns you are discussing being raised.



I think it's nice to see everyone share what they are feeling and then others share that they disagree. There is so much that we sometimes forget about perception. I may see something one way, but you may view it totally differently. It's important in conversation to share this and hopefully it leads to better understanding from the other party. This isn't always the case, but I think it's the goal. It's also really tricky to have all of these conversations behind a screen. We all miss a lot because of lack of face to face, which can change so much on how we view what is being said.


----------



## Clearblueskies

Megs said:


> It's hard to be super stringent on applying the notion of threads need to stay on topic when there is a natural discussion that strays but is part of the bigger conversation. I really don't like shutting down conversation. Sometimes I'll ask something to remain on topic, sometimes I'll remove a couple super off topic posts, but typically I like to see conversation flowing.
> 
> This thread has become a really lively discussion and many people have voiced that they would like to be heard about issues on the forum itself. I have always welcomed that. Sometimes people want to reach out privately, and other times they feel better doing it publicly with others. It is just the direction this thread has taken, and so ya, in this case I've let more conversation flow. There's no perfect way to moderate, but I am always trying!
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's nice to see everyone share what they are feeling and then others share that they disagree. There is so much that we sometimes forget about perception. I may see something one way, but you may view it totally differently. It's important in conversation to share this and hopefully it leads to better understanding from the other party. This isn't always the case, but I think it's the goal. It's also really tricky to have all of these conversations behind a screen. We all miss a lot because of lack of face to face, which can change so much on how we view what is being said.


I was referring to the posts here which are attacking posters in other threads (posters who are on topic btw) not the drift of topic in this thread.


----------



## Megs

Clearblueskies said:


> I was referring to the posts here which are attacking posters in other threads (posters who are on topic btw) not the drift of topic in this thread.



I may have missed some of those, I'll check again. We don't allow attacking members and really prefer if you are looking to call out a member you do so via report or you can PM me directly!


----------



## sdkitty

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> If you haven’t read it why would you assume it isn’t true?
> 
> Comments about how she just wanted attention for social justice, the comparisons to Meghan Markle (which is how the Naomi thread actually started), the fact that every comparison is against a white athlete or celebrity who is handling it so much better than she is, “this sounds like a case for Oprah,” how she’s so entitled, that Piers Morgan is right about his statements about her and Meghan, I could go on and on about the micro aggressions in there…
> 
> The whole thing also just bugs me because I don’t understand why people can’t err on the side of being kind. You wouldn’t challenge someone who says they have cancer, why challenge someone because they have mental health needs?


All I can say is I don't like Meghan Markle and it's not because of her race.  I don't have any issues with Naomi.  I feel for her as she is very young to be dealing with all the fame, etc.
So I'm just one person here and that's my opinion.


----------



## lalame

jelliedfeels said:


> This is the problem I have with some of this cultural appropriation discourse.
> If you are from a numerically small minority of people and  if there’s poverty in your community your business really needs to sell to those outside of your ethnic group to flourish.
> 
> Then you get kicked again because the white or other consumer you are marketing to doesn’t want get heat for wearing something from a culture they aren’t part of so they are wary to buy. Then if you are really unlucky H&M comes out with something similar looking in style but stripped of all cultural significance and controversy and for a third of the price.
> I feel like we have more awareness of these issues with the food and dining industry but it just seems to reach a bit of an impasse in fashion.
> 
> add on- some of these clothes are beautiful. They are really interesting prints.



I totally agree that this issue is more complicated than people want to believe. I got into a debate with a (white) friend once who was complaining that it was cultural appropriation for non-Indian wedding guests in an Indian wedding to wear Indian clothes, even if it were happening in India. Indian weddings are BIG and hospitality for traveling guests is huge... when my husband flew to India for a friend's wedding, the family had activities to take foreigners out to get matching outfits made for the wedding if they wanted them. How do you refuse that? I tried to explain to her that deferring to your host, participating in cultural activities, etc ARE signs of respect in many cultures and she just didn't really understand. I don't think the sense for this is as strong in American culture because it is more individualistic, but that's not even the point... it's like these buzz words give people ammo that they don't know how to use. If I see anything wrong with the "woke" culture it's that it can be patronizing, as if just because you know the lingo the wide world fits into these neat little words.


----------



## coldbrewcoffeekate

sdkitty said:


> All I can say is I don't like Meghan Markle and it's not because of her race.  I don't have any issues with Naomi.  I feel for her as she is very young to be dealing with all the fame, etc.
> So I'm just one person here and that's my opinion.



Ok


----------



## V0N1B2

lalame said:


> I got into a debate with a (white) friend once who was complaining that it was cultural appropriation for non-Indian wedding guests in an Indian wedding to wear Indian clothes, even if it were happening in India. Indian weddings are BIG and hospitality for traveling guests is huge... when my husband flew to India for a friend's wedding, the family had activities to take foreigners out to get matching outfits made for the wedding if they wanted them. How do you refuse that? I tried to explain to her that deferring to your host, participating in cultural activities, etc ARE signs of respect in many cultures and she just didn't really understand.


You see, this is my big issue with so-called “woke” culture. I’m tired of self-appointed white people telling POC how they should feel or what they should be offended by. I’d rather be given the side eye for wearing a Sari to an Indian wedding by an actual Indian woman than some Karen.  JMO.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

leechiyong said:


> While I agree with this in premise, it needs to be applied at the individual level, not perpetuating stereotypes that something bothers everyone of the entire race and should be applied in treatment of them.  For example, before things shut down and when the majority of known COVID-19 cases were in China, I went out to eat and noticed quite a few people watching me eat with a very concerned look on their face.  There’s a high likelihood one or more of them was worried I might have COVID (I’m Asian in the US).
> 
> For some, this experience would be deeply bothersome, but what bothered me more was those later who made a deliberate effort to demonstrate they weren’t one of those people, encroaching on me, standing closer to me than they did others, and being overly friendly.  The intent was good, but it did nothing to negate the otherness it made me feel, made me feel like my personal space was being invaded, and was quite reckless given the pandemic.
> 
> In the end, no one can assume to know what another wants and no one can know what may or may not be intended as offensive.  All I can try to do is get to know people on an individual level and think people have positive intentions until proven otherwise.  Maybe they just liked my purse that day and I’d never want  someone to not look at my purse because they were worried I might think they thought I might get them sick.



Exactly that was my point...I don't think anyone would ever expect everyone from one group or another to feel a certain way...we're all individuals with our own experiences and perspectives. But if something I say or do hurts someone I'd rather err on the side of apologizing and trying to understand than dismissing it entirely because it wouldn't bother me.  

And I'm sure your purse was fabulous!


----------



## LVLoveaffair

floatinglili said:


> I’ve never actually heard that expression ‘white wog’ before. Perhaps it’s a regional thing? Aren’t Italians classed as ‘white’?? Mind you I’ve never heard the word ‘wog’ (meaning Italian postwar migrant) used in a nasty way in my social circle either although I have heard Italian Aussie comedy entertainers - children of Italian postwar migrants  (hailing from Sydney Melbourne area? Guessing) call themselves that. It seems such an old fashioned word.
> 
> Also have never been involved in a conversation where I have personally heard people calling aboriginal people nasty names but perhaps that’s because I have aboriginal relatives?? Not sure?? I have never mixed wth the type of people
> who would call Aboriginal people nasty names.
> 
> As for ‘yellow peril’ wow what an expression. In the Australian context isn’t that associated with historic union-leaning Bulletin newspaper fretting about the geographical location of Australia and the potential impact of ferociously cheap Asian labour from 1800s? Have you honestly ever heard a person discuss Asian Australian people using the words ‘yellow peril’ with a straight face because honestly that again is something I have never once heard. I don’t think I travel in particularly enlightened circles perhaps country people are just not in an environment to hear these sorts of expressions?
> 
> Not challenging you, just have never heard  these expressions in the context you have raised before. I don’t come from Sydney or Melbourne and don’t live in an urban area though. But normally the stereotype is that country people are more racist, not
> less. Also maybe I’m older? I thought the understanding was that older people were more racist, not less.
> Dumb, vulgar and aggressive people everywhere I guess I’m just lucky I don’t have to mix with them much. I don’t get outside of work and home much admittedly.
> I feel shocked by your statements, sorry if these experiences have been a regular experience for you in Australia and astonished if these kinds of interactions are in fact mainstream.


I’ve never heard of “wog” either but Wop plenty of times. I always thought it was a bad slang term against one nationality but it’s short for “without papers”. I can’t promise the new generation has other bad connotations with it but… this is from the 1940’s and a military term. My elderly aunt also told me they’d call people “DP” - which meant displaced person.


----------



## LVLoveaffair

sdkitty said:


> oh, yes.  it seems whichever group is newly immigrated is looked down upon.  at one time it was the Irish.  before that (I think) the Italians....these days it's immigrants from other parts of the world.  I could go on but I guess it might get near what some would see as political


Yes, the Irish and Italians built the NYC subway systems. They were treated like trash.


----------



## floatinglili

It would be nice to celebrate the wins sometimes, and celebrate the ordinary people who do their best to be civilised and kind. I think it would help the cause. 
Since the inception of this thread, my friend’s 16yo son has been held at knifepoint by a group of nine aboriginal youths. It was an attempt to steal his new moped. The attack took place outside a school in the early evening. 
As the kid worked three part time jobs to buy this thing he wasn’t giving it up. There was a struggle, the moped got a few dings, but my friend’s son got away. 
I called my friend immediately and she picked up from outside the police station where here son was giving a statement. She didn’t even mention the ethnic identity of her son’s attackers (I didn’t think to ask). She was emotional but no details and no nasty names crossed her lips. 
I only heard the detail of the attack in the weeks that followed, as my daughter had private conversations with the boy. Again these facts were conveyed respectfully and lightly.
I thought nothing of this at the time but decided to relate this just now as an example of ordinary people and the choices they make for a fairer and more cohesive society. 
To hear and read everywhere the very common and repeated claim that ‘Australia’ is indiscriminately racist and ugly, with of course the implication that all must self examine deeply and change poisonous thinking… I agree the topic is noble and well intentioned but it’s hurtful that all the everyday goodwill goes so consistently unmentioned.


----------



## hermes_lemming

LVLoveaffair said:


> Yes, the Irish and Italians built the NYC subway systems. They were treated like trash.


We were all treated like trash. Some of us still are. 

P.s. I love both the Italians and the Irish.


----------



## sdkitty

hermes_lemming said:


> We were all treated like trash. Some of us still are.
> 
> P.s. I love both the Italians and the Irish.


we're a nation of immigrants....all of us except for the Native Americans


----------



## LVLoveaffair

sdkitty said:


> we're a nation of immigrants....all of us except for the Native Americans


Yes! Our friend is Lakota Sioux and he was telling me stories of his childhood - not being accepted and growing up on a reservation with his grandma. I don’t think people should focus on skin color - unfortunately they do. He had a rough time although he looks “white”. Everyone’s story matters and we should all stand proud as one race.


----------



## sdkitty

LVLoveaffair said:


> Yes! Our friend is Lakota Sioux and he was telling me stories of his childhood - not being accepted and growing up on a reservation with his grandma. I don’t think people should focus on skin color - unfortunately they do. He had a rough time although he looks “white”. Everyone’s story matters and we should all stand proud as one race.


the native americans got a pretty raw deal


----------



## hermes_lemming

sdkitty said:


> we're a nation of immigrants....all of us except for the Native Americans


That is true. And we unfortunately never made it right for them.


----------



## sdkitty

hermes_lemming said:


> That is true. And we unfortunately never made it right for them.


some of them get a lot of money from casinos but unfortunately a lot of those people aren't well educated in how to handle the money so they squander it.  hopefully the tribes will educate the children so that they don't waste their lives because they have a big check coming in monthly

and of course there are many tribes that don't have casinos and aren't living well at all


----------



## canto bight

I think the thing that a lot of people don't understand about cultural appropriation is that most people don't mind people wearing something from their culture or enjoying things from their culture.  

The problem is when people from outside of that culture benefit financially from their culture in ways that the original owners of that never have or will.  Or when people outside of that culture are celebrated or accepted for enjoying or doing something from the culture when people in that culture are antagonized for it.

For example, a white person wearing a traditional African hairstyle and being called fashionable or anything positive while black people are perceived very differently for having the same hairstyle.  Or a company like Zara selling a dress with obvious influence from a small Asian culture.  The problem isn't someone wearing that dress, the problem is the company profiting from it instead of artisans within that small culture.


----------



## Swanky

sdkitty said:


> the native americans got a pretty raw deal



Most still are getting a raw deal. I’m a member of the Cherokee Nation and saddened by how many Indians aren’t getting help with education and the level of poverty many live in, including a lot of my own family.


----------



## poopsie

So, while I admit I haven't been following this discussion closely, i am left wondering about a few other 'isms' in the fashion industry, namely ageism and sizeism. Have those been addressed? I know that SI featured a "plus size" model a few years ago and PR included larger "real sized" models in their shows as well. Has it become a standard yet? Has SI used any on a regular basis? Has anything _really _changed? Or were those just token appeasements? Have there been any 50+ models? Does no one other than mart level or niche designers think 'older' women don't want to be fashionable?


----------



## Mimmy

Virgil Abloh’s Final Bags for Louis Vuitton - PurseBlog
					

Virgil Abloh’s final collection for Louis Vuitton is here, and we’ve got a look at the bags from his posthumous Fall 2022 collection.




					www.purseblog.com
				



For those who haven’t seen this article yet I thought I would post it here. I also thought that I would read some of the comments and some are disturbing to me.

I am saddened by the comments that attack other people for liking or disliking these bags. Since when are people not allowed to give voice to their own opinion?


----------



## coldbrewcoffeekate

Mimmy said:


> Virgil Abloh’s Final Bags for Louis Vuitton - PurseBlog
> 
> 
> Virgil Abloh’s final collection for Louis Vuitton is here, and we’ve got a look at the bags from his posthumous Fall 2022 collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.purseblog.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For those who haven’t seen this article yet I thought I would post it here. I also thought that I would read some of the comments and some are disturbing to me.
> 
> I am saddened by the comments that attack other people for liking or disliking these bags. Since when are people not allowed to give voice to their own opinion?


For some reason I got an email notification on this post. I checked the link you shared and it reminded me why I don’t post here anymore.


----------



## Swanky

I haven't read that article but just glanced at the comments, I saw some disgusting comments too from keyboard warriors. . .
please do not let blog readers with no rules, impact your experience here, they're completely different interfaces.


----------



## Mimmy

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> For some reason I got an email notification on this post. I checked the link you shared and it reminded me why I don’t post here anymore.


I understand what you are saying. I am taking more breaks from tPF and try to stick more to the handbag and fashion threads. I am trying to keep tPF as my guilty pleasure not something that is upsetting to me.


----------



## lalame

Social media really brings the worst out of some people. Crazy how arguments can break out over the most irrelevant topics to one’s actual life. I swear a conversation about ice cream flavors will somehow devolve into racial attacks.


----------



## hermes_lemming

Mimmy said:


> Virgil Abloh’s Final Bags for Louis Vuitton - PurseBlog
> 
> 
> Virgil Abloh’s final collection for Louis Vuitton is here, and we’ve got a look at the bags from his posthumous Fall 2022 collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.purseblog.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For those who haven’t seen this article yet I thought I would post it here. I also thought that I would read some of the comments and some are disturbing to me.
> 
> I am saddened by the comments that attack other people for liking or disliking these bags. Since when are people not allowed to give voice to their own opinion?


So much anger and hostility. Yes he wasn't everyone's cup of tea but the same can be said for all of his predecessors. They never aimed to be a one size fits all. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And we should have the social graces to respect each other's choices


----------



## QuelleFromage

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> For some reason I got an email notification on this post. I checked the link you shared and it reminded me why I don’t post here anymore.


Exactly how I feel


----------



## sdkitty

QuelleFromage said:


> Exactly how I feel


so posts are being deleted?


----------



## Megs

We rarely delete posts from PurseBlog comment section unless they are something that we consider to be harmful, and racism, however veiled, is harmful. We typically don't have problems with comment sections on PurseBlog.com articles, but we did on that specific post, and Vlad deleted quite a bit of it as it has no place on our blog or forum. 

Like Swanky said above, the two entities are totally separate - so they operate on completely different platforms.


----------



## OriginalBalenciaga

Megs said:


> We rarely delete posts from PurseBlog comment section unless they are something that we consider to be harmful, and racism, however veiled, is harmful. We typically don't have problems with comment sections on PurseBlog.com articles, but we did on that specific post, and Vlad deleted quite a bit of it as it has no place on our blog or forum.
> 
> Like Swanky said above, the two entities are totally separate - so they operate on completely different platforms.


Comments about racism were just deleted on the Harry & Meghan thread...I am sure this is not your intention but it seems the message being conveyed is racist posts are okay....complaining about them are not...?


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## coldbrewcoffeekate

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Comments about racism were just deleted on the Harry & Meghan thread...I am sure this is not your intention but it seems the message being conveyed is racist posts are okay....complaining about them are not...?


I got an email notification from your post, it’s funny that you mention the thread that caused me to stop patronizing the forum. I’m sorry you’re still waiting and hoping things will change here.


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## Mimmy

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Comments about racism were just deleted on the Harry & Meghan thread...I am sure this is not your intention but it seems the message being conveyed is racist posts are okay....complaining about them are not...?





coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> I got an email notification from your post, it’s funny that you mention the thread that caused me to stop patronizing the forum. I’m sorry you’re still waiting and hoping things will change here.


I occasionally return to the Harry & Meghan thread with the hope that things have become more balanced. Unfortunately, I find that they have not. 

Derogatory terms, microagression and imo aggression appears to be allowed. Earlier in this thread we were told to report things that we found offensive but I have done this and the posts remain so I have to conclude that at least if it is not being openly condoned a blind eye is being turned on these comments. 

coldbrewcoffeekate, you bring up what I struggle with. I enjoy certain threads and still participate in them. I have not left the forum and I guess in my own way I am turning a blind eye too.


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## OriginalBalenciaga

coldbrewcoffeekate said:


> I got an email notification from your post, it’s funny that you mention the thread that caused me to stop patronizing the forum. I’m sorry you’re still waiting and hoping things will change here.


I’m so sorry I totally get it. I have learned a lot about anti racism and as a white woman I’m doing my best to call other white women in...I know it’s literally the very least I can do and I’m disappointed that it’s met with such defensiveness in this space. 



Mimmy said:


> I occasionally return to the Harry & Meghan thread with the hope that things have become more balanced. Unfortunately, I find that they have not.
> 
> Derogatory terms, microagression and imo aggression appears to be allowed. Earlier in this thread we were told to report things that we found offensive but I have done this and the posts remain so I have to conclude that at least if it is not being openly condoned a blind eye is being turned on these comments.
> 
> coldbrewcoffeekate, you bring up what I struggle with. I enjoy certain threads and still participate in them. I have not left the forum and I guess in my own way I am turning a blind eye too.



My deleted post was about the posts I have reported for microagressions (and worse)…those posts remain…my comment is gone…you cannot make this up!


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## 880

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> Comments about racism were just deleted on the Harry & Meghan thread...I am sure this is not your intention but it seems the message being conveyed is racist posts are okay....complaining about them are not...?


I didn’t read the allegedly racist posts in the HM thread, so perhaps have no place opining, but I’m curious. And, although I went to law school in the early 1990s, many of the assignments, including but not limited to those re race and gender, did not stick. So, I apologize in advance if I misuse terms of art or simply miss the obvious. I do know enough that it’s not simply intent that matters, but rather reasonable perception. I hope people give me the benefit of the doubt that Im not typing this with the intent to offend anyone.

TPF management has heretofore seemed to take the position that the tone of the MM thread can be very snarky and somewhat mean but not inherently harmful or racist. Perhaps this is due to the fact that members who post on that thread (disclosure : I post occasionally and I certainly vote like or dislike on the posts of others) feel that this is their safe space to voice what they feel are legitimate concerns on public figures. As the thread has grown, the participating members have gotten close enough (in common schaedenfreude — yes my spelling is horrible) that there has been universal concensus reached on certain superficial topics. Meghan, since the publication of the Bower book, hasn’t seemed too active, so there were posts on her orange tan; her ill fitting clothing; the fact that she appears darker in certain pics (where members feel she is unfairly trying to use the race card, whereas in her career, it suited her to pass as white. . .

Is the members’ collective indignation that she is now presenting as black, as to her advantage, racist? And, is it racism for many of the members on that thread to call her on other things, when they articulate plenty of other reasons for disliking her behavior. I will say, having read the thread for some time, that members are actually more scathing of the various and many idiotic acts from Harry who is basically dumb, entitled, and very white and privileged.

I also realize that racism can be conveyed, even though no particular animus is intended. Since I didn’t read the posts, I have no idea what the allegations are. i don’t even know if the allegation is that posts there are racist, was it bc they were negative towards Meghan who is half black in a particular manner, or at all? TPF philosophy is that we are not supposed to instigate or take others on in impolite disagreement. At what point do we draw the line to become micro aggressions. IDK. Perhaps this is something that I should know. I personally cringe when members derisively label M as a representative of woke culture. I’m sensitive to this as I am probably more liberal in bent than many of this forum and I am not Caucasian, but dark skinned Asian. I could never pass as white. But. I just kind of ignore the woke references bc I don’t want to derail the thread. We have members on that thread from the UK who genuinely feel that the thread is one of the few safe spaces where they can express their outrage as to the antics of M and of H.

TPF has often been accused of gate keeping behavior which I always understood to reference the attitude of older members to more recent ones, especially in the premier luxury subforum s. I think I need to obviously read and learn more about racism to figure this out for myself, but Im not sure it helps to educate the members of that thread to level allegations of racism. I do feel that the written word comes across far more harshly than the spoken one, and that’s something all of us should remember. But, I don’t think the answer is to prevent members from voicing their opinion about public figures. I’m guessing, but of course do not know that the reason allegations of racism were taken down was that they may be perceived as instigating conflict in order to shut down the thread. I’m not conversant enough by the way to come to a conclusion. Just typing out my thoughts.

ETA: microaggression: Im not sure the the thread participants even understand in a visceral way that microaggresions can occur unintentionally, but I think many on that thread would argue that M has never thought of herself as a member of a marginalized group until it became profitable for her to do so. nor was she an object of discrimination as she passed for white. And that much of the animus is against H.

i personally think M is a typical middling small screen actress whose work had dried up and who hustles to get ahead. I don’t think that her ethnicity plays any part in that, but if this is a microaggresion, I would be willing to learn about it


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## 880

I forgot to add my theory (not backed by anything but my personal experience (spending way too much time on TPF)

when I report a post, it’s because I think the poster is unduly rude or trolling or aiming to cause a fight on a thread. Or if a poster posts two of the same on different forums. Mods seems to sometimes accept the reporting of the first  and tend to ignore the reporting of the second.

im not sure mods are equipped to spend the time to parse the intent  of content one deems to be a microagression. if the post, on its face, has a justifiable POV other than malignment (is that even a word) of a marginalized group, I think that the prevailing philosophy is to give the post originator the benefit of the doubt. i left TOF for 8 or 9 years I think bc I got tired of some members. Now I press the ignore button.

Nor am i certain that there should be a safe space on TPF. I kind of think so long as people are polite towards each other and not inciting violence or criminal activity (I’m sure there are other factors but you know what I mean), threads should be allowed. just as this one is allowed. At some point in this threads history, some members came in with combative attitudes, and I believe their posts were also removed.  I personally think a political thread should be allowed but it clearly isn’t bc no moderator wants to spend 100% of time breaking up fights. I don’t see this as an institutional microaggresion. JMO


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## Mimmy

880 said:


> I forgot to add my theory (not backed by anything but my personal experience (spending way too much time on TPF)
> 
> when I report a post, it’s because I think the poster is unduly rude or trolling or aiming to cause a fight on a thread. Or if a poster posts two of the same on different forums. Mods seems to sometimes accept the reporting of the first  and tend to ignore the reporting of the second.
> 
> im not sure mods are equipped to spend the time to parse the intent  of content one deems to be a microagression. if the post, on its face, has a justifiable POV other than malignment (is that even a word) of a marginalized group, I think that the prevailing philosophy is to give the post originator the benefit of the doubt. i left TOF for 8 or 9 years I think bc I got tired of some members. Now I press the ignore button.
> 
> Nor am i certain that there should be a safe space on TPF. I kind of think so long as people are polite towards each other and not inciting violence or criminal activity (I’m sure there are other factors but you know what I mean), threads should be allowed. just as this one is allowed. At some point in this threads history, some members came in with combative attitudes, and I believe their posts were also removed.  I personally think a political thread should be allowed but it clearly isn’t bc no moderator wants to spend 100% of time breaking up fights. I don’t see this as an institutional microaggresion. JMO


I agree that microaggression can sometimes be very subtle or nuanced. I also agree that people may not realize what they are saying could be perceived as a microagression. I agree 100% that mods do not have the time to try to determine what constitutes a microagression when it is not clear cut or maybe at all. I could see why calling out other members on a perceived microagression could lead to conflict. Personally I think that I would like to be. I am always willing to be made aware of something being perceived as being offensive. I guess I could then decide if it is something I want to avoid saying in the future or I can decide if it’s a “woke culture” thing. I could also determine that it is my right to have that opinion. I also dislike the overuse of the term “woke” but it is obviously here to stay, at least for now.  

On this forum if I question it, I do not report what I perceive as microagressions. When I have reported posts I have reported things that I thought were clearly offensive. As with all things, I realize what is offensive to me might be perfectly okay to someone else. Sometimes the posts have been removed and a few times they have not.  The mods do a great job overall and I admit it is not a job I would want to do.

In relation to what I perceive as a microagression directed at me in my personal life I now take a different approach. I do not always ignore it or let it go. I may want to point out why I feel that something is not appropriate to say to me or ask of me or I may just not answer. Depending on the situation I may still let it go though.


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## OriginalBalenciaga

I made the decision that I would rather be "woke" than the alternative so I realize my views may be automatically discounted by many on tpf but here goes...

It makes me sad that multiple POC have expressed that they don't feel welcome or supported in this space. To me that indicates there is a problem.

I totally agree with you @880 about the confusion surrounding micoraggressions. Like @Mimmy I hope most people want to know if they have inadvertently said something hurtful so they can learn and grow. That is why every organization I work with (professionally or as a volunteer) has added a DEI component to their efforts, whether it's being deliberate about representation, education, training, etc. 

I understand tpf wants to be an escape from the world, a chance to shallowly obsess, but isn't it also important to make sure all members know they are welcome and included and valued? Isn't that really what "safe space" ultimately means...?


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## QuelleFromage

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I made the decision that I would rather be "woke" than the alternative so I realize my views may be automatically discounted by many on tpf but here goes...
> 
> It makes me sad that multiple POC have expressed that they don't feel welcome or supported in this space. To me that indicates there is a problem.
> 
> I totally agree with you @880 about the confusion surrounding micoraggressions. Like @Mimmy I hope most people want to know if they have inadvertently said something hurtful so they can learn and grow. That is why every organization I work with (professionally or as a volunteer) has added a DEI component to their efforts, whether it's being deliberate about representation, education, training, etc.
> 
> I understand tpf wants to be an escape from the world, a chance to shallowly obsess, but isn't it also important to make sure all members know they are welcome and included and valued? Isn't that really what "safe space" ultimately means...?


Could not agree with you more. Things have been said, and defended, here in multiple threads (including the one recently discussed) that are not even "micro" in any way.


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## Mimmy

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I made the decision that I would rather be "woke" than the alternative so I realize my views may be automatically discounted by many on tpf but here goes...
> 
> It makes me sad that multiple POC have expressed that they don't feel welcome or supported in this space. To me that indicates there is a problem.
> 
> I totally agree with you @880 about the confusion surrounding micoraggressions. Like @Mimmy I hope most people want to know if they have inadvertently said something hurtful so they can learn and grow. That is why every organization I work with (professionally or as a volunteer) has added a DEI component to their efforts, whether it's being deliberate about representation, education, training, etc.
> 
> I understand tpf wants to be an escape from the world, a chance to shallowly obsess, but isn't it also important to make sure all members know they are welcome and included and valued? Isn't that really what "safe space" ultimately means...?


I agree. 

I thought about editing my post as I was using “woke” somewhat facetiously. Again, subtleties can be lost in the written form. If I am “woke” I will own it.


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## sdkitty

Mimmy said:


> I agree.
> 
> I thought about editing my post as I was using “woke” somewhat facetiously. Again, subtleties can be lost in the written form. If I am “woke” I will own it.


I think the word "woke" has now become in insult directed at liberals....no one wants to be called that these days


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## Mimmy

sdkitty said:


> I think the word "woke" has now become in insult directed at liberals....no one wants to be called that these days


Again I was being somewhat facetious, I realize that “woke” is often used as an insult now.

The original meaning of woke was “alert to injustice in society, especially racism”. Taken in it’s original meaning I can live with it.


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## sdkitty

Mimmy said:


> Again I was being somewhat facetious, I realize that “woke” is often used as an insult now.
> 
> The original meaning of woke was “alert to injustice in society, especially racism”. Taken in it’s original meaning I can live with it.


I'm aware of the origin but its been turned into an insult now IMO.  Used as a code word.


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## 880

Mimmy said:


> In relation to what I perceive as a microagression directed at me in my personal life I now take a different approach. I do not always ignore it or let it go. I may want to point out why I feel that something is not appropriate to say to me or ask of me or I may just not answer. Depending on the situation I may still let it go though.


Agree 100%

But, unless I get really fed up (usually with newcomers who don’t use the search button; for those seeking validation for baseless defects and subsequent returns of expensive items; for those who are clearly just out for QBs and SAs to get them there; or, finally for the entitled who are bitter that the rules have changed;  I try to give the benefit of the doubt or ignore.

This is a bit off topic to microaggresion, but there was a thread criticizing a valued longtime member of TPF who was originally not named. The OP was totally presenting only one side, and there were definite exonerating circumstances that were omitted. The member didn’t feel it would be appropriate to speak up (bc it would cause definite drama) and did not. various members spoke in her defense; and of course there were some detractors. But, many members, totally ignorant of circumstances or past history, jumped in to attack bc OP painted a very sympathetic version of events.

Early in the thread, Before I knew who the subject of the thread was, or the circumstances, I posted giving a solution that the OP didn’t like. I then received a PM from OP accusing me of deliberately stirring up trouble or being a troll. Was I going to report it. No, why bother. You cannot convince people if they are insistent on the wrong path. Nor can you convince them of your own good faith when they so clearly don’t believe you.

The PM from the OP, who I did not know, actually didn’t bother me so much as another thread post. It was from a member who was definitely not aware of the actual facts. And, it was both pompous and ill informed. And said in such as way as to be highly critical. Since I knew her, I PMed her to let her know that perhaps there were details not known to the thread readers and she should not be so hasty in judgment. She replied that she knew better (perhaps she PMed the OP, IDK.

So, I left it alone. I stayed off a favorite thread for a while bc she was a regualr poster there. And to make a long story short, that is when I learned about the ignore button. I have been on TPF from 2008-2012; took a long hiatus of many years, then came back. I usually give everyone the benefit of the doubt as a general rule. I decided to stay on TPF and just press ignore.

This situation does not deal with aggression towards a marginalized class. But, there were definite classist undertones, and many of the posters who posted against were in favor of an approach that I think played into a status classist tone that was ugly. I feel that the ignore button solution, while imperfect, was the right solution for me. I can totally understand why others step away bc in the past I have done so myself.


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## Mimmy

880 said:


> I decided to stay on TPF and just press ignore. Of course this situation does not deal with aggression towards a marginalized class. But, I feel that the solution, while imperfect, is the same.


I will clarify in advance that I am not trying to be cute or sarcastic in any way, 880. Again, the subtleties of the written word. The part of my post that you highlighted is how I now deal with people I am face to face with.

How I wish that irl some people had an ignore button. I think that if it was in the center of their chests it would be perfect. I could then simply hit the “ignore button” and that would be that! 

The visual on this really made me smile.


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## 880

Mimmy said:


> I will clarify in advance that I am not trying to be cute or sarcastic in any way, 880. Again, the subtleties of the written word. The part of my post that you highlighted is how I now deal with people I am face to face with.
> 
> How I wish that irl some people had an ignore button. I think that if it was in the center of their chests it would be perfect. I could then simply hit the “ignore button” and that would be that!
> 
> The visual on this really made me smile.


I totally agree with you! 100%


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## OriginalBalenciaga

sdkitty said:


> I think the word "woke" has now become in insult directed at liberals....no one wants to be called that these days


It is definitely meant as an insult by many but again I'll happily take the label based on the original meaning (and the alternative). It's a shame how often it is used now to further divide an already dangerously fractured society. Even on the thread in question it was referenced as a reason for the heinous attack on Salman Rushdie


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## coldbrewcoffeekate

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> I made the decision that I would rather be "woke" than the alternative so I realize my views may be automatically discounted by many on tpf but here goes...
> 
> It makes me sad that multiple POC have expressed that they don't feel welcome or supported in this space. To me that indicates there is a problem.
> 
> I totally agree with you @880 about the confusion surrounding micoraggressions. Like @Mimmy I hope most people want to know if they have inadvertently said something hurtful so they can learn and grow. That is why every organization I work with (professionally or as a volunteer) has added a DEI component to their efforts, whether it's being deliberate about representation, education, training, etc.
> 
> I understand tpf wants to be an escape from the world, a chance to shallowly obsess, but isn't it also important to make sure all members know they are welcome and included and valued? Isn't that really what "safe space" ultimately means...?


For a long time, TPF told me they were fine with racism. Unfortunately, it took me longer than it should have to hear what they were saying.

TPF is about money and clicks, and until they’re incentivized or forced to change, they won’t. I take some solace in seeing that when TPF is mentioned pretty much anywhere else on the Internet, it’s given the description and summation it deserves.


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## dangerouscurves

papertiger said:


> I saw, I noted, it's weird. I checked, unfortunately, it doesn't violate any tPF rules. Some people (of any background) can be racist towards _certain_ races and nationalities and think they're not being racist. While it's fashionable to look 'woke' in one direction, the same people often do exactly what they're telling others not to do. I actually believe she's being genuine.
> 
> BTW, I think it's great that people question beauty and fashion standards, but since luxury comes from court (as in royal courts) it's a bit rich (pun intended) to complain (or even explain) that it operates as an exclusive club. That's kinda the point. Just check out tPF's members' lists of bag hierarchies. Are we arguing for rich white people to keep their money? I don't know if people know this, but not all rich people are white either. I am not in the market to buy a $100K handbag nor fast fashion brands, but I have absolutely nothing against someone doing so if that's their heart's desire.
> 
> There's very few industries that women from all round the world make-up such a large percentage of workers, some the bread-winners of their families, some of these rely on commerce to feed themselves and others. Even in the West, it nearly always takes 2 wages to pay-off an average mortgage and keep a roof over head. Fashion has been just about the only creative industry actually making any money in recent times.  To pick on fashion as the evil villain and leave out the rest of industry is also a tradition - of patriarchy. Only 14% of women run the top 50 fashion brands - and most of it is not menswear https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdan...n-power-positions-mean-more-female-customers/  If you want to know where most of the wealth is, look globally, it's mostly not in female hands.
> 
> Racism towards anyone is not OK, including on tPF (please report if you see, that is in the rules)


Time has changed. A few hundred years ago, only blue-blooded people can lead a country, now a carpenter's son can as well. That's why these luxury houses now a days are getting their inspiration from the street wear, especially from the black community.


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## mrsinsyder

The new thread in the celebrity sub-forum is… disappointing.


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## sdkitty

mrsinsyder said:


> The new thread in the celebrity sub-forum is… disappointing.


what thread?


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## OriginalBalenciaga

mrsinsyder said:


> The new thread in the celebrity sub-forum is… disappointing.



Beyond.


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## lalame

sdkitty said:


> what thread?


+ 1


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## Addicted to bags

mrsinsyder said:


> The new thread in the celebrity sub-forum is… disappointing.


And it's a continuation thread, so if you read when it turned and put it all together


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## sdkitty

mrsinsyder said:


> The new thread in the celebrity sub-forum is… disappointing.


susan hussey, lady in waiting?  that thread won't go on for long IMO.  there were differing opinions on that situation on the other threads but this new one seems pretty pro-susan.  I hadn't even looked at it before you brought it up.


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## OriginalBalenciaga




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## lalame

Oh, that one… couldn’t help but weigh in. Don’t know why I bother anymore. Things like this get so contentious.


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## mrsinsyder

sdkitty said:


> susan hussey, lady in waiting?  that thread won't go on for long IMO.  there were differing opinions on that situation on the other threads but this new one seems pretty pro-susan.  I hadn't even looked at it before you brought it up.


The comment about a black woman being racist because she has a charity that helps minorities made it obvious.


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## elvisfan4life

mrsinsyder said:


> The comment about a black woman being racist because she has a charity that helps minorities made it


Many biracial victims of domestic violence have been refused help by the said charity maybe it’s not fit for purpose there are two sides to every story- I feel there are numerous victims here but not the lady running the charity - the victims she has failed are being drowned out by the media hype she has created


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## elvisfan4life

lalame said:


> Oh, that one… couldn’t help but weigh in. Don’t know why I bother anymore. Things like this get so contentious.


I agree so I won’t pop on here again just wanted to post that there are always two sides to every story and there should be fairness on treatment - so far one side has had no voice we are merely trying to provide it  thanks and goodbye


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## OriginalBalenciaga

elvisfan4life said:


> there are always two sides to every story


We will have to agree to disagree. Not regarding this situation specifically but in general there are not always very fine people on both sides...


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## sdkitty

OriginalBalenciaga said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. Not regarding this situation specifically but in general there are not always very fine people on both sides...


Very True


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## Swanky

Please participate in the other thread instead of talking about it here, off topic.


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## mrsinsyder

Swanky said:


> Please participate in the other thread instead of talking about it here, off topic.


This thread has often discussed the issue of racism on TPF, including multiple celebrity sub forum threads, when did that become off topic?


----------

